[Closed] working all your life. whats all that about?

I think we need to reduce consumerism, but actually, in an advanced society, we do need money, work, different skills etc..

+1

People complain about the service economy, but it's the only way we could continue to improve living standards without also increasing drain on natural resources. People go on about manufacturing, but how's that great for the environment>

Sit down with a spreadsheet

Or spend your working life doing a job that doesn't involve things like spreadsheets... 8)

While you have the spreadsheet out just work out what the cost of having a job is. That can be quite an eye opener.

you could camp in scotland near the coast, forage for seafood, hunt game etc, get water from streams/lochs etc.
I'd take a guess and say you would expend more calories than you'd take in if you tried this long term and you'd eventually starve to death.

I often wonder about this. I think if you were well equipped to start with and nobody was chasing you along you could survive doing this. Especially if you could plant up some tatties somewhere. All assuming you have the knowledge/skill and taste/open-mind to make do.

I doubt the issue is starving to death for lack of calories, but it might be scurvy or other nutritional illness.

I remember reading about this once after one of those alone in the wilderness/survive a year alone type series. There was that much to do in terms of building and maintaining camp, fetching water, setting traps, hunting for food, processing the food once you got it, repairing and maintaining kit, keeping firewood supply etc etc that it was pretty much hopeless doing it alone. Instead it was far better to do it as a small group, even with just two people as the overall work required remained pretty much the same to support one as it did two or three people, but the effort was shared.

Or spend your working life doing a job that doesn't involve things like spreadsheets...

Things like spreadsheets and spreadsheets themselves can be great fun you know.

seosamh77 - Member
Sit down with a spreadsheet, work out much money you need for the rest of you life, stop working when you hit that.

Basically, well unless you are on the breadline, work out your buying shit/work balance.

I had a bit of a revelation when I did this about 7 months ago. Since that time, I have had a much clearer idea of the balance and what I'm working for.

In my case, as part of a family of 4, the answer is that I can "retire" (aka achieving financial independence) just before I'm 50 - in 13 years' time.

That's going to be 17-19 years of life before I assume I will get the State Pension and revised public sector pension I'm a member of. I can decide to do what I want with that time; whether to work or not.

Obviously that means I'm saving a lot and forgoing various things now, including XTR-spec carbon wonderbikes. Many will roll out the "but it's all gone if you die early" argument, which is quite fair - but ignores that I will pass on my savings to my family if this happens, which I'd be happy knowing on my deathbed.

I just need to sit out the next 13 years and make sure my body is ready to do lots more MTB'ing in my 50s. 😆

Things like spreadsheets and spreadsheets themselves can be great fun you know.

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My plan is to work steadily now, get back some financial security then when I'm a really big cheese I'll go contracting.

I know a guy a bit older than me, he's one of a small pool pool of proper experts in a product that is fundamental to enterprise IT architecture, and he does work when it comes to him and relaxes the rest of the time. He drives a Porsche.

At the beginning of last month I was diagnosed with afib, it was actually pretty bad and I spent a couple of weeks hospitalised with the symptoms. While I was there and with the tests they did, they also discovered that my thyroid hormone was low (that explains why I can't shift the weight) and a my kidneys are not functioning fully (still more tests to be done on that).

So at 48 I am evaluating my life and thinking about asking my boss if I can go down to a 4 day week. I have only had a "good" job for the past 5 years, most of my life has been on relatively poor wages, and periods being unemployed. So I haven't been able to get on the property ladder or put much into a pension.

I will not be able to retire before the statutory retirement age. So now I am thinking should I potentially sacrifice a more comfortable retirement that I may never reach or be able enjoy in order to live a more fulfilled life now.

Everything I enjoy/love involves being active and if I don't have that then I don't know what the point of my life will be. Is there any point having years onto my life if there is no life in my years.

I know a guy a bit older than me, he's one of a small pool pool of proper experts in a product that is fundamental to enterprise IT architecture, and he does work when it comes to him and relaxes the rest of the time. He drives a Porsche.

I never seem to get those opportunities, maybe I am just not as good as I think I am. I am useless at selling myself and networking, I just get on with my job and do it well. I have spent to many years being the go to guy who solves the problems works hard but always gets past over by those with the gift of bullshitting.

The major religions prescribed a day off as the normal mode was to work 7 days a week.

We have never had it so easy work wise, never. It wasn’t so long ago that if the weather was bad (or you lacked skills) your crop failed and you died. Today frankly life is a piece of piss in comparison.

Retiring early is one thing. Maintaining a decent level of income you're used to is another.

My pension pot looks fairly decent on paper, but the projections of what it would actually pay out with an annuity in todays money (accounting for inflation etc), it's utter shite. Barely enough to pay the bills (and assuming no mortgage and cutting back on a lot of things). That's even adding in the state pension but I can pretty much assume that won't exist by the time I retire, and besides I wouldn't get that until 67 under current rules, and that'll likely extend further.

There's one thing Mrs BigJohn and I have decided - that's never put things off to some golden date in the future. We've seen so many people sacrifice enjoyment to fund a future life in retirement, but die, or get ill before they have the chance to enjoy it. We're fit, young at heart and early 60s. Going to more gigs and festivals than ever. Semi retired and this weekend getting fed up with the weather booked cheap flights to Cape Verde for next week. Can't really afford it, but windsurfing just in shorts better than, well, anything really.

There seems to be two issues raised here: progress and organisation.
Progress has seen the human race go from hunter-gatherer to farmer, industrialist and now technologist. Each of these 'phases' results in easier, but in my view, more ruthless work. The OP clock watching is classic industrial behaviour - you get paid by the hour so more hours = more pay = bigger house. Technology is and will be results/productivity/profit driven. It doesn't matter what hours you do, the outcome will determine success. The downside is more unemployment and greater inequality. This brings me to organisation, I think people are able to express themselves more, we have greater freedom (e.g.let's fly to Moscow at the w-end!). The cost of this is tighter, more diverse tribalism, with less tolerance for difference and consequently more war.

Things like spreadsheets and spreadsheets themselves can be great fun you know.

You are an accountant and ICMFP. Databases though, now you're talking. 8)

bigblackheinoustoe - Member
If the greedy minority weren't land grabbing all the time, forcing us peasants to pay our lives away simply to place our feet on it let alone take up residence, life would be a lot easier.

Land should be free and worked on by all not horded like goods and services.

In my opinion everyone needs to go back to working in agriculture and people shouldn't have to pay rent to take up residence where ever it is they want to stay. Common land for common people!

Land should be free and worked on by all not horded like goods and services.

On one side of my family I'm two generations away from near subsistence farmers - crofters in Lewis where people worked their own land. A diet largely of potatoes, mutton, fish, and guga. Living in a black house shared with the family cow.

Best thing my grandfather ever did was leaving Lewis where there was no paid jobs to go and work for "the man" in Glasgow.

Anyone born post WW2 in the UK has had a better standard of living in every way than every previous generation and most of the world today.

I was over in the blackhouse museum in the west if Lewis a few months ago. Looked like a tough life especially in winter. Plus side was no one telling you what to do but I agree modern life is cushy compared to that.

A thought provoking thread. How hitting 50 next year and thInking about retirement etc. I’m one of the fortunate few (according to this thead) who loves their job and also I’m well paid and “comfortable”so looking at slowing down at 50. Plan to travel (more of the world - seen quite a bit already) of the world, do loads of biking and generally slow down/enjoy life a bit more.

The interest in this thread is not about our personal circumstances. Nor about comparing live today with the past which is impossible.

I dont think whittling sticks in the forest is the peak of human existence but would suggest 50 years of paye, mortgages and pcps are not either.

I know its a daft question, but who or what is responsible for us having to spend the majority of our lives toiling away mostly in utter futility until we die.

i think it is two-fold.... we are trapped in a society that expects us to toe the line; get educated, get a job, pay for housing, pay taxes, consume more. the other factor is that we are greedy basturds who generlly want more than we have.

once we jump on to the hamster wheel we keep having to work harder to keep it turning. each time we make a new purchase we have to run that little bit harder. every decision we make has a knock on effect.

new job? you need new clothes or new tools.

need to travel further? pay more for your travel costs.

had a good year? pay more tax (scheiss vorauszahlung!)

need a holiday to relax? first earn the money to cover you not working.

bought a new car? pay more for insurance/tax.

house feels too small for all the crap you have collected (and probably never use)? buy a bigger house.

on the housing thing.... the amount we pay now to keep a roof over our heads is crazy. for me it is my biggest outgoing every year and it hurts me even more as we are renting, essentially paying for our landlord's grandkids university.

on that note, i also feel that wealth is far too unevenly distributed. if those at the top earnt less then perhaps those nearer the bottom could be paid more, negating the 45 hour week they currently need to keep their heads above water.

we could all work 30 hours a week and still be paid what we are earning now with the added benefit that those who have no work could be employed to fill the hours left open. but, that could only happen if those at the top were willing to take a cut, and sadly that goes against human nature.

i went to the tip the other day. the amount of perfectly good items that were being chucked away was saddening. i think i would find it quite depressing to work there, but hey, sadly that is how our society's money generating system works.... buy shit.

Interesting thread.

I think what keeps so many at the grindstone is the insanity of housing costs which sucks up so much spare income from those not lucky (old) enough to have bought before it all went mad.

I am someone who is in a position to choose how to work. Mainly being on the right side of history (property, student debt etc) and partly skillset and job market. I've worked a bit over 50% of time over last 6 years. I've also done voluntary work, did year at Uni to get MA as well stuff like learning guitar, painting, bouldering plus riding, running etc. I realise this comes across a bit willy waving - it's not intended to and there are downsides. Not working can be lonely if you are not self sufficient, requires discipline so don't end up sat about in vest and pants all day playing Xbox, and a general feeling of not contributing or having meaning in life. This is something that some of family/friends have struggled with on retirement

I do think we would be much happier society if this done of flexible life was easier. But whilst so many people are caught up in the madness of current property/rent costs then I don't see it.

On the bigger points in the thread. The simple life, agrarian utopians and would be hunter gatherers. Anthropology and history would suggest that those lifestyles were hard - not least the fact that about 40% of the population didn't reach age of reproductive maturity - most dead before age of 5. And recent experiments with this have not gone well - Holiday in (1970s) Cambodia? - as mentioned above. I had a big argument with an academic about this and eventually suggested he had a walk about a steel works and the tell me how local collectives could replicate that.

How come the biggest arguments against socialist ideas are 'a brutal dictator tried communism once and look where it got them'?

Do you know what?

My 5 year old tried F1 racing the other day and he ****ed that right up, so by your logic we should ban motor vehicles

(comment not directed at you olddog, just the communist dictator argument)

... and finally. The definition of capitalism I find most useful is simply the investment of capital to get a return.

Society can be structured around this idea in lots of different ways. From belief that free markets(capital,labour, trade) maximise wealth and growth, through managed Keynesian economies giving sustainable growth to Marx's inevitable crisis of capital.

I'm not sure how this translates into any sort of position where the benefits of growth and technology are spread more evenly and all work less though...

How come the biggest arguments against socialist ideas are 'a brutal dictator tried communism once and look where it got them'?

... is most fictional technological utopias they are either some sort of benevolent dictatorship or communist/anarcho-syndicalist set up. But never a a small number of uber-rich industrialists voluntarily sharing their wealth...

Things like spreadsheets and spreadsheets themselves can be great fun you know.

+1

Sorry to be smug, but I really enjoy my job. And some of it involves building, developing and teaching spreadsheet models.

There are things that get me down in my life, but working isn't one of them.

If only they'd killed a few million more it might of worked eh?

brilliant