You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
So, I think most people fall in to three categories;
1. Don’t give a toss about Work and don’t give it a second thought
2. Fully invested, work is life
3. Somewhere between the two, is fully invested in traditional works hours, able to take calls or answer emails or work for two hours on Saturday (as an example of downtime) and switch back to the family / social enjoyment easily thereafter.
Now, I’m in what I consider to be a 4th category, where my job asks for a 3 style, but I cannot easily draw the line mentally when downtime starts. It bothers me to do a work task at the weekend, or take a quick call/answer an email on holiday and I let it beat me up mentally for days. Therefore, I’m in a constant flux of mentally berating myself for not enjoying my downtime.
I appreciate this may not make sense to some, but other than changing my job has anyone got any suggestions? I guess I’m after some form of mental acceptance that allows me to switch on and off easily, but don’t know the “how to”.
I’m also not sure I’ve described it well either…
Life is short, yes make plans but live in the moment, the last company i worked for asked me for my phone number and i said you can't have it. Man it was tough the pressure was enormous but they didn't get it, i also had three more days holiday than everyone else, that caused quite a stir when colleagues found out. Sometimes you have to be a NO man and not be ambiguous about your feelings, I've found it garners respect.
YES men get walked all over.
That's a really hard question in this age of 24 hour connectivity. I think it also depends if you are paid to do a certain amount of hours or paid to do a certain job like be the managing director.
If your contract says 39 hours per week for example then you should stick to that or speak to your line manager about the need to do extra and try an agree a compromise.
If however you are paid to do a job as is the case with more senior management positions then I think you probably have to accept that you will need to work more hours on some days and occasionally take a call on holiday.
Weekends are difficult though.
You probably need to ask yourself why you are answering emails at the weekend. Can it not wait until Monday? Is the person emailing you also working at the weekend and therefore expecting a response? Or, is the person emailing you at the weekend also doing it out of choice and in reality not expecting a response from you as it's the weekend...
My organisation has a disclaimer on their emails saying something along the lines of "If you have received this email outside of normal working hours then do not feel the need to respond immediately."
I have two phones, one for work and one personal and I turn my work one off out of hours.
It does also depend if you really enjoy your work or not...
It's not an easy question to answer but I think if you feel you are struggling with mental anguish you could speak to someone at your organisation. If that's difficult/impossible does your organisation have any wellbeing support available via a 3rd party? Failing that a recognised charity..?
Why do you beat yourself up about it? Start there if you want to change it. I absolutely won’t routinely do work at the weekend, but occasionally needs must and I’ll do the odd bit. I will answer an email on holiday if it comes in and can be quickly dealt with, because that’s easier. My motivations are selfish. Deal with something now, and I don’t have to do it when I get back from holiday, by which time it could have escalated.
If you’re just getting needlessly pulled into work conversations during your down time then separate the device - if you use your personal phone for work get them to buy you a work one you can turn off. If they genuinely expect you to casually work at weekends they’re a crap company and a new job is the only answer.
Why do you beat yourself up about it? Start there if you want to change it. I absolutely won’t routinely do work at the weekend, but occasionally needs must and I’ll do the odd bit. I will answer an email on holiday if it comes in and can be quickly dealt with, because that’s easier. My motivations are selfish. Deal with something now, and I don’t have to do it when I get back from holiday, by which time it could have escalated.
Well this really plus I'm senior Sales so its often in my own interest to get on a decisive call / send something that enables a commission cheque...
I do have a separate phone, and generally manage my time well as oceanskipper alludes to. Its this bit...
Why do you beat yourself up about it? Start there if you want to change it.
...I can't answer an would love to solve, not so much the time management. I'd love to crack on with it, then move on to sun/pool/latte/bike/whatever without a second and/or guilt ridden thought but for some reason I can't.
I get that there's pressure to do more all the time, but honestly the answer has to be no, otherwise eventually you may as well work 7 days a week, because ultimately that's what any organisation will demand if you constantly give them unpaid time.
Yes it causes resentment, especially if you're the Twinw4ll in your organisation, but if they really really need to be told that it's not acceptable.
So I guess one question is then, where does the guilt come from? Is it perhaps guilt that you should be spending time with your family or is it guilt that you think your work colleagues might judge you badly if you don't do the extra for example? Or is it just that you are being hard on yourself? Maybe identifying that for a start will get you on the right track.
Sometimes a deeper understanding of yourself and your personality type is required to solve this, start with https://www.16personalities.com/ and it will lead you into the rabbit hole...
I over invest in work in many ways and work in evening but never on a weekend unless paid. Start doing that and you are really devaluing your time unless as you get some kind of a bonus that is big enough to cover the extra hours
Every time I do a Myers-Briggs test I get different results. I’m variously an ESTJ, ENTJ, and that link pegs me as an ISFP, which is literally the opposite of my ‘normal’ result!
The first 2 categories of people you describe are merely the opposites at both end of the work/life spectrum; the 3rd category is the person sitting mid way. However people are placed all along this depending on their job and attitude so there is a multitude of different types.
No job should be wholly reliant on one person; its not a good model if it is. What if the person were to have an unfortunate accident and die; how would the company manage!
The only legitimate reason for a person having to pick up work whilst on holidays is down to bad planning or inadequate staff levels.
I often think it's a culture thing. I have seen people who came in to work, gave it their all but left at a reasonable hour and protected their weekends being labelled as "lazy". To me they just have good boundaries.
I sometimes wonder if people trap themselves in long hours due to not being able to fix clear boundaries.
When I started with my current employer I gave it everything - ie in the office before 8am every day and pretty much every night opening laptop after dinner and working 'till past 10/11pm. I even had a number of 10pm conference calls with colleagues / my boss!
We have a two gate bonus system, pretty much everyone gets through the first gate for the normal bonus but to get double bonus you need to get through the second gateway as exceeding expectations. After the second round of bonus announcements and not getting the double bonus it dawned that despite doing the work of several people, I was getting the same pay and benefits whether I worked 37 or 90hours a week - no extra bonus, no accelerated pay rises, no extra benefit to me at all. It just became expected I was always online.
A change of role to a new team and now politely but firmly stick to my contracted hours and have a much better work/life balance. I might scan emails whilst on time off but will only respond to 1 in 100 if case it were to escalate and be worse upon my return. The wfh change has been great as we now have soft phones to our laptop therefore I no longer give out my mobile number - laptop closed therefore phone automatically to voicemail.
I dont mind doing a bit extra now and again but we have a time sheet system, if I have to stay late to get something fished it's recorded and I get to finish early one day next week, or do a load of extra over Chrismas and get a couple of days off when it all calms down again.
Without that I wouldn't be staying passed five.
I know if a colleague rings on my holiday it's an actual emergency, I can only recall this happening twice ever
I'm totally with the OP on this,we had a new boss last year. No linger allowed to work from home if not teaching, asked if we check emails when on holiday wants us to work beyond contractded hours consistantly. Then is incompetant in his own role and makes stupid decisions.
Most of our team are ready to walk, been flat out for three week then told to step it up a notch in the classroom.
Then got told attitude is carrer limiting (he said this to another person on the same day).
I rent my time to a company for 37hrs a week. In that time I’ll work hard. The rest of the time is mine.
I’ve mostly worked for myself for the last 14 years. I never bug any employee out of their hours.
I did work for a company last year and I only engage in work time. Out of hours I don’t pay any attention to phone calls/group chats etc.
https://www.16personalities.com/
I've done that before, and its always the same for me - ISTJ-T. I think a few people have me wrong here - I'm not told to interrupt my personal time, or necessarily expected to but I feel a sense of duty immediately followed by a child-like-toys-out-the-pram thought of "FFS thats the whole day ruined" even if I only be on the phone for 15 mins or answered a couple of emails, I don't then "switch" to personal time and put it behind me for the rest of the day. Perhaps this exert for the "T" above describes this better:
There are potential downsides to all this attention and achievement. Always feeling the need to do more, to have more, and to be more, Turbulent individuals can also get caught up in endless thoughts of criticisms, slights, or regrets. This can either bog them down or motivate them to do better. Their sensitivity to potential problems can be useful – unless that’s all they think about and the problems clutter their attention. Turbulent personality types may compulsively scan for what might go wrong instead of keeping their eyes on more positive targets – on what could go right.
What I'm asking is any hints tips or advice to turn of the bold bit (apart from getting drunk 😀 )
<shrug>
Have you considered trying a bit of mindfulness after an interruption in your personal time to almost reset you back into where you were before the interruption ? Literally just take 1-2 mins to do it and see if it helps.
If you can find a cure for my work anxiety waking me regularly between 3-4am in the morning I'd be super grateful.
I found used youtube, ruby wax and mindfulness was really helpful for me but we are all very different.
Good luck, I'm coming to the conclusion that improving anything to do with your brain and thoughts is incredibly challenging
Don’t answer the phone or emails out of work hours?
if you have a company phone, switch it off.
Does your firm have an EAP who might have someone you could talk this through with?
Though, having identified the problem, you can probably unpick it yourself now.
I have some sympathy - I had a backroom job and for years found it very stressful if I was contacted at home - like most people I needed my free time to catch up on necessary chores and unwind.
I got a bit better in the last few years when I realized that contacting me out of hours was a good indicator that the whole issue was BS and once the sunlight of normal process was cast upon the problem, it would magically evaporate.
So all I had to do was sound professional and sympathetic and as senior as possible when the beleaguered customer was in on the call, say things like "ah yes, well if you can get XYZ data to me I can crack on at once with this!" *knowing* that 19/20 times, the coalface person gathering data X would screech to a halt, go "wait a minute we just need to..." and I would never hear about it again.
Have you tried the hoary old technique of writing down stuff on a bit of paper "I HATE THIS WHY CAN PEOPLE NOT STICK TO NORMAL BUSINESS HOURS AND FOLLOW CHANNELS" and then burn or shred it?
It's too late for you I think, given your history on here of over sharing your psychoses on this forum via self help websites and on-line get to know yourself horseshit but really, I think the best thing you could do, is put down the ****ing self-test nonsense, step back a bit from work that obviously drives you nuts and do something less stressful.
I think one the single most corrosive features of Myers Briggs test (which you should probably read about the history of them to get a sense of how "logical" they are) is when folks get their results, and without any sort of critical analysis of it, decides that this IS their personalty and it becomes this sort of fulfillment nightmare. You may as well read a copy of dice-man and live by that for all the veracity to your true self that it would provide.
Answer the text/phone call/whatever, or don't. Make a decision about it, then accept it. It really is that simple, stop over complicating everything in your life.
Answer the text/phone call/whatever, or don’t. Make a decision about it, then accept it. It really is that simple, stop over complicating everything in your life.
Although I appreciate your input and why you wrote that, to an over thinker thats pretty much the equivalent of the "MTFU" attitude to mental health.
It’s too late for you I think, given your history on here of over sharing your psychoses on this forum via self help websites and on-line get to know yourself horseshit
Maybe I should just lock myself away and bang my head against a wall eh? People talk in forums like this because there's masses of experience over a wide variety of subjects amongst a wide audience.
I'm simply asking how other's might deal with interruptions in their social lives so that I might learn from the same, it really is as simple as that.
I’m simply asking how other’s might deal with interruptions in their social lives so that I might learn from the same, it really is as simple as that.
dont allow it to interrupt your social life, it’s as simple that…
the equivalent of the “MTFU” attitude to mental health.
If you think you have mental health issues, then see a professional about it. The answer you seek aren't contained within the pages of Myers Briggs.
I'm not trying to down play your fears and anxieties, I'm really not, but perhaps, if you'll allow, from an outsiders perspective, your mental health issues all seem to stem from your attitude to your work. Perhaps it's time to take a good long hard look at what you do, why you do it, and whether it's actually making you happy, 'cause from my viewpoint reading your many many posts on here about it, it's driving you spare.
I spent 15 years working all hours, phone constantly on, emails responded to immediately. Partly as I was young and naive, partly as I wanted to impress, partly as that was company culture in those kinds of companies.
I decided 2 years ago I’d had enough. It was impacting things that it shouldn’t, I was close to burn out, usual fun and games. So I stopped.
This invoked:
Changing job to one where 24/7 responses isn’t expected.
Separate work phone and laptop. I turn my phone off and can’t access work emails on my personal laptop, so there no temptation.
Setting expectations to my current employer that I work hard in working hours and will only go outside of those with advanced notice and good reason.
In sales, where I think you work, this can be difficult, but it’s not impossible. It may well take a change of roles though as you can set your rules from day 1.
I'm going to be working a lot of weekends and very long , odd hours for the next 6 months as we have an ongoing 24 hour operation that will take that much time and i have a secnor decision taking role. I'd rather not but tough, that's part of the job, in return it's interesting, exciting plus I get money and lots of extra days off. So I have to be able to be at home , switch on for half an hour, then switch off again the rest of the day,
Are you actually expected to do this? Probably, but the turning on/off is your problem, and blows it out of proportion.
I recall you also have a problem with handling training, plus family , plus work life. There is a pattern. Do you know what it is?
I would go and see a psychiatrist, but it sports or otherwise, independent of work and get their opinion on the connection . Pay for it, so you're committed. I think you'll benefit from that far more than a few tips and tricks from the internet or self help book you'll use inconsistently.
I think nickc makes good points.
To my (uneducated) viewpoint, a lot of your posts revolve around similar issues, and similar advice is proffered each time. Maybe self-help isn't the right answer for you at this stage, and you could benefit from professional help.
dont allow it to interrupt your social life, it’s as simple that…
Bit like telling a fat person they just need to eat less.
Utterly pointless and unhelpful..
Well this really plus I’m senior Sales so its often in my own interest to get on a decisive call / send something that enables a commission cheque…
Doesn’t matter. A ‘deal’ isn’t going away over a weekend, or at 7pm at night. If a customer waits until you are on holiday and starts to pressure a situation, I’d argue you haven’t set the groundwork’s of a deal in place to survive, either that or they are a shitty customer (or clever, knowing it’s an opportunity as there is a weakness).
I wouldn’t, nor do I expect anyone in any of my teams (of which sales comes under my area) to be doing ‘a couple of hours’ on a Saturday unless we’re talking exceptional, one off circumstances (once a year, business critical, for example).
My boss expects the same of me (and he’s German, in Germany!).
My thoughts remain much as they did on previous threads
work to live do not live to work - its just not needed
you seem to have a need to validate yourself by being competitive in every situation - but you have "won" but are still dissatisfied
I really think you would benefit from some counseling. but basically you need to stop working excess hours and spend time doing stuff you like and with your family. Who cares if the deal doesn't go thru till monday? You do not have to "win" in every situation.
We have a system of rota responsibility for weekend work during the holiday season. If I'm not on rota I expect not to be disturbed, anything pressing I have the company owner to field when it's not "my" weekend (I do 2 in 5 during the season). On my weekends I will sort everything and refer up if it's a reputation impacting problem.
We have a work mobile (badge of office) and email is on my home computers but on a separate app that only does work. I've done the work/available all hours it's not appreciated and is usually the purview of organisations with a toxic masculinity problem.
Bit like telling a fat person they just need to eat less.
Utterly pointless and unhelpful..
Not sure I agree but hey ho.
No one is making the OP check their emails and answer phone calls at the weekend. So remove the temptation. Turn off the ability to do so. The world will still turn.
If you're going to work all hours, then work for yourself.
Anything else is exploitation.
We have have a whole industry (education) devoted to ensure we get brainwashed with all sorts of crap about careers etc, but the reality is why would any sane person want to work instead of use their time as they saw fit?
I’m simply asking how other’s might deal with interruptions in their social lives so that I might learn from the same, it really is as simple as that.
I'd love to help but I'm good at ignoring things - too good, in fact, because far too much doesn't get done both at work and for my household, which leads to other pretty significant problems!
Not sure I agree but hey ho.
If someone has a psychological dependence on being responsive to these kind of work issues, then I suppose it's similar to a psychological dependence on food. You feel compelled to answer an email/eat, but then regret/hate yourself for it.
That's what OP is saying, that allowing the bleeding-over of his work into his personal life is driven by his psychology.
Yep, that's my understanding also. I still maintain that if this is the case, then seek professional help. The answers OP seeks are neither to be found on a public forum or the pages of any amount of self-help books or online personality tests. the last two of those things are just designed to take money from unsuspecting punters, and certainly not to give you tools or insights to help you with your problems. If they do, it's just happenstance and not by design.