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Following on from the paper round thread, one poster claimed it instilled a good work ethic while another poster claimed that it was something you are born with. I agree with the latter.
A good mate of mine, has always grafted hard for his money since our paper round days and now runs a successful business. I, meanwhile, have always looked upon hard work as something to be avoided although this has never stopped it getting it's evil grip on me from time to time.
I think being motivated by material gain has much to do with it, and frankly I'm just not that fussed.
I don't think it's all down to money - at least not for all of us. There's lots of folk just want to do the best that they can and maybe also to be recognised and appreciated for that. Of course, you can say that's just because they're vain and want their egos stroked...
Following on from the paper round thread, one poster claimed it instilled a good work ethic while another poster claimed that it was something you are born with. I agree with the latter.
I'm not convinced anyone posting regularly on here has a good work ethic!
I think being motivated by material gain has much to do with it, and frankly I’m just not that fussed.
Plenty of people grafting hard, with a good work ethic who aren't earning that much and could probably earn more if they looked around them and were more focussed on material gain than working hard. On the other hand plenty of people making good money who don't work that hard at all.
On the other hand plenty of people making good money who don’t work that hard at all.
Isn't that part of the definition of your average STWer
I’m not convinced anyone posting regularly on here has a good work ethic!
Why? I work hard, do a good job AND can also spend a bit of time in between doing something else. Work times are not rigid for many of us and all that matters is getting done what need to be done well in whatever way suits you.
Depends on who you work for and what you do for work.
I've worked hard for good employers, and slacked off when they were rubbish. I've worked hard for free because I believed in what I did, or understood the company had run out of money and was trying to earn enough to pay me next month.
Ethics is a flexible, personal, subjective view point.
Apt question for me right now, facing potential promotion (via application rather than organic). On the one hand I want more responsibility because I'm a bit bored and frustrated at times with my current role. On the other hand, being a bit bored and frustrated balances off in flexibility of not being *too* visible (e.g. lunchtime bike rides, early finished etc). I find very often saying to myself "I don't care", which is untrue - I do care and want to work hard / do a good job. But I don't feel sufficiently motivated to care that much. I can't work out where I draw the line personally between being naturally driven and externally motivated. Material gain isn't a motivator, but retiring sooner (hopefully, if at all) is a motivator. I'm not sure that counts given that my primary motivation to work harder is to stop working sooner.
On the other hand plenty of people making good money who don’t work that hard at all.
Hi there.
Only your Mum cares about how hard you work.
I'd say it's more of a spectrum than a binary thing.
I used to have a very strong work ethic, but as I've gotten older, and been made redundant twice. I find myself thinking why bother? Not really in a "I can't be arsed" sort of why, more in what's in it for me?
My current job has really reached that point. I could do it with my eyes closed, and I do it well. I could do a lot more, but I have to ask myself what are the short, medium and long term benefits to that?
Short, there's no commission structure. Win, lose or draw, I get paid the same.
Medium, there are no annual reviews, no annual pay reviews. In fact I have to go cap in hand and beg/argue for a pay rise every couple of years to try to stay ahead of inflation. When we do well, investment goes to improving profitability for the owners, or more staff in other depts. When it's going badly, I just get the pressure of being told to fix it and "next year we'll all have massive pay rises".
Long, there's no room for progression, the job I have now, is the only job that they are willing for me to do, despite all the study and skills I've gained and in the very long term I've been told in no uncertain terms, whilst others will be given a 'piece of the pie' if/when the owner exits, I won't.
A lot of people, especially younger ones worry that if they don't do their best, they'll be sacked, but it's not really true. People get sacked for all sorts of things, but doing enough to do their jobs, isn't one of them.
Yes, I'm having a moan, but I'd implore anyone who works for someone else, be honest about the short, medium and long term benefits for you, to work harder than you need to. If you just get a good feeling from doing the best you can, then do it (but you'd probably wouldn't be here on a workday) if you'd doing it for some vague promise of riches down the road, be honest - do you really think you'll be rewarded, or are you just fooling for Management 101 "stick with me kid, riches are just around the corner".
On the other hand plenty of people making good money who don’t work that hard at all.
<waves>
I work for a massive multi-national. We had a recent re-org and my workload pretty much halved.
I actually find not being busy a bit stressful. But then its becoming apparently that I'm one of the few that feels like this.
Work = maximum amount of money for the minimum amount of effort
I like to graft on my house, the garden etc do not lazy lazy just work lazy
I think being motivated by material gain has much to do with it, and frankly I’m just not that fussed.
I am similar to that but I have worked very hard all my life when at work. Its just my reward that motivates me is not money - its the smile from the old lady, its the satisfaction of making folks lives better etc etc. I feel sorry for those whos motivation is money only because they will never reap the rewards I have done
But - I have worked my contracted hours only and would never work more.
My work ethic was certainly instilled in large part by my parents
Of course, you can say that’s just because they’re vain and want their egos stroked…
guilty as charged! this is my belief that there is no such thing as altruism - its enlightened self interest!
Ok I overstate that but there is certainly something in that for sure
I will work really hard on stuff I'm interested in. Problem is that many jobs don't provide it, and I can't bring myself to work hard on boring stuff. I want to, but I can't. And most work stuff is boring. This has significantly harmed my career.
Funny topic this - i did paper rounds when i was younger, up at 5, 4 big heavy bags cutting the circulation off to me head, all weathers for quite frankly eff all money - it really was crarp.. but that and going to army cadets changed my inital view for working hard, not so much academically -becuase i hate studying the traditional ways -i like to learn but by getting involved.. Parents were certianly not well off, but did just enough to get by.
roll on to my own kids - my daughter, crafts like crazy - ever since she was born she's seen me breaking my back building the two houses we lived/live in and working often very long hours and travelling a fair bit. My son however - lazy little shit... i cant persuade my missus to get the kids to do paperrounds (too dangerous), scouts (cubs for th boy at the moment) arent really instilling a work ethic, and army stuff is banned (i've done the horrible sandy stuff in my time)..
so, are you born wiht it, or do you learn it - in contrast to to the OP i think it's learned, but there is something about your own chemical makeup too, i just think it plays a smaller role..
My job's gone through cycles of crazy busy and not much on (although mostly just busy to crazy busy the last few years), I'm OK with the quiet times (as I know other times I'll be over-worked) so don't feel guilty at all, although it can be hard to adjust back to working 100%.
Learning new skills used to be a motivator when working flat-out but now days not so much, I'm nearly ready to step into one of those "treading water, not very busy" roles heading for retirement that I keep reading about...
I have zero work ethic, so I've tried to get jobs that are quite interesting, so I find myself working for the enjoyment of getting it done, rather than working for money or promotions which always seem too distant to be good motivators.
I like working hard, but hating doing it on pointless stuff when i could be using my time more valuably.
Thankfully i have an interesting job so those times are limited but i could be doing more if it were available
I had several paper rounds in the 80's to fund BMX's, an airgun etc. we were poor and I did not have anything new until I was 14 and bought my own tuf neck stem and mx1000 brakes.
It put me off work for life. I am terminally lazy. I have achieved a level of comfort now that has seen me avoid further challenges as much as possible.
I'm pretty open about being a lazy shit at work. But laziness means I am always looking to make my job more efficient and less effort. Therefore I actually do okay at work.
My dream is to turn on the computer and walk away. But engineer it that I don't make myself surplus...
This and the original paper round thread are gems. The first for re-incarnating dead but very happy memories. This one, for verbalising my thoughts.
In the first thread, I was the one who dumped the whole round in a recycling bin for 2-years without getting caught. The irony, is I still went out to do the 'round' so that my parent didn't twig what I was up to. I just went for a walk. It is also surprisingly hard work to post 150 papers into a recycling bin on a busy road without arousing suspicion. In hindsight it would not have been much harder to just deliver the papers.
Looking back to me then, would have been a very good predictor of me now. I still feel that I am winging-it in my job. I have worked during the 21 years since graduation without a break, so I am not opposed to the concept. I just struggle to put it into practice. I definitely think been born with a good work ethic is a gift, it certainly would have made my life a lot easier.
But – I have worked my contracted hours only and would never work more.
Unless your working for yourself, I very much agree with the above, even if I could not behave in that way.
To use the care sector as example, "free work" "hides" what would be the actual cost of care provision and, what could be considered the emotional blackmail of not wanting to fail any recipient of care, leads to papering over very real cracks in the system and organisation. This behaviour of "working for free" then sets precedent for others in the area.
None of the people at the "top" of an organisation do anything for free but if you ape their example you're castigated for a having crappy "work" ethic.
A lot of my colleagues work for free. They moan about it too, but continue to do it.
(Sales admin, so not exactly a vocation)
I was told specifically not to by my boss (who works for free a lot) as I don’t get paid enough. Chap I introduced to the company does at least an hour extra a day doing the same job as me, even when not required, despite boss telling him not to. He’s just been promoted over me. I’m thrilled.
Do the bare minimum to get by without getting into trouble, why work hard just to make someone else richer? Unless you work for yourself of course.
Luckily I’m now in a job I enjoy so the above no longer applies to me
I read that there's a spectrum of intrinsic motivation - I definitely sit in the end of the scale where I'm very motivated at everything from work to tidying the living room. I struggle 'coasting' at anything. From junior jobs as a young 20 something, through to a good career path in my mid-40s, I'm pretty sure my enthusiasm has carried me in times where skill may have been less strong.
Not saying one or other is wrong, but if you index highly for intrinsic motivation (rather than extrinsic factors like money, pressure from boss/clients etc) you'll work at a high rate naturally. Just my experience.
I was reading papers on potential cancer treatments at 11PM last night. Work is a vocation, hobby and privilege. I like finding things out and someone pays me to do it.
I started with multiple paper rounds, gardening and odd jobs for a lovely old lady who was very fond of me and stayed close for years after, then also in a restaurant from 13-17. Worked for the council during the long summer holidays at Uni and had a bar job as well. Needless to say I must have a Work Ethic (although to be fair, the council job involved a lot of sitting around and drinking tea - car park attendant and beach hand).
I work really hard.
Just not at work.
Like Molgrips, this has affected my career
Working hard has little to do with money. Low pay jobs don't mean less work and high pay jobs don't necessarily mean more work.
I feel like I work reasonable hard in my job but could work much harder. I choose not to as I wouldn't get anything in return as I work for a big company. So I work hard enough to keep everyone happy and make my life as easy as possible.
If it was my own small business, I'd imaging working hard would provide some more return.
Sometimes my work is a privilege and a hobby. I once spent a few weeks cycling in to the office on Sundays because there was no remote access to the supercomputer and it was the only way to check the jobs were running and resubmit if finished.
OTOH sometimes I'm on here when I should be writing up a paper that's about a year overdue and frankly a bit boring with all the interesting work done and dusted long ago....
I was reading papers on potential cancer treatments at 11PM last night. Work is a vocation, hobby and privilege. I like finding things out and someone pays me to do it.
That's the best part of my job. Some people think I'm strange for taking calls and answering messages in the evening, but helping people out with their problems is fun for me, I'd do it if I wasn't being paid (and I have). The problem is with the drudgery I have to do when I don't have a pressing project, I have zero appetite for it even though it is relatively useful.
When I was at uni we had a programmning project to do. I spent loads of time helping my friends with theirs and teaching them to code, and I didn't do my own. I failed that module.
A funny concept 'work ethic'.
As I see it, it's all about incentives. On the one hand, I see a self employed good friend who seems to have an incredible work ethic and it appears to be all about providing for his small, new family. Which seems admirable. This is the 'good work etic'. Being able to be industrious in order to get what you want. Whether it's a home for your family, a new bike etc. Or even working hard for an employer, provided the respect is reciprocated...
On the other hand, I have friends that also appear to have a good 'work ethic', but work for other people and seem to work like donkeys only to get shat on. They're always going above and beyond, arriving early/staying late etc. It's almost as if they were missing a father figure as a child so thrive off the 'attaboy's' that their bosses occasionally throw them. The boss sees this of course and exploits them accordingly.
There's also a strange virtue signalling thing going on with a lot of people about just how hard they can work, and that they never have a day off, no matter how sick etc etc…
So this bad, second type of work ethic seems to have stemmed from a kind of brainwashing to get others to do things for free/cheap. And thus, people believing that hard work is in of itself virtuous. And that free-time, hobbies, and just generally chilling out is something to feel guilty about.
Of course, if your hobby is also your paid work then you've kind of won the jackpot.
@Tired sorry completely irrelevant to the thread but have you seen the nature paper on mitocondrial hijacking by cancer cells from immune cells?
I certainly used to have it when I was younger, numerous part time jobs and then was pretty successful in my 20s.
I'm told I still have it, even though I don't feel it when at work. Not sure if its age or cynicism. But we're involved in quite a lot of voluntary work and I guess that requires some level of self motivation.
And thus, people believing that hard work is in of itself virtuous.
That idea goes back a long long way in history, it's not a modern thing.
That idea goes back a long long way in history, it’s not a modern thing.
Right, I wonder where it came from? A religious thing perhaps, 'the devil makes work...', so if you're not working like a dog 24/7 you might start touching your sinful parts, which would displease god.
Which is kind of convenient to your lord/boss.
Work for me.
Don't work for others.
Works for me....
An ethic is just a set of moral principles which you may or may not subscribe to. And yours probably won't be exactly the same as anyone elses unless you read the DM.
Some people live to work, it's a vocation a calling, it's what they are, it defines them.
Most work to live and some of those find that their work fits in with their moral principles. Some don't and feel dirty about their work, or guilty or resentful or exploited.
I've done a good selection of jobs. In some it was easy to reconcile my principles with the work , in others less so, I didn't stay long.
But utimately I only work to maintain a level of comfort I'm comfortable with, I think it's survival instinct rather than work ethic that allows work to distract me from more interesting things.
Right, I wonder where it came from? A religious thing perhaps, ‘the devil makes work…’, so if you’re not working like a dog 24/7 you might start touching your sinful parts, which would displease god.
@SaxonRider to the forum please.
On the other hand plenty of people making good money who don’t work that hard at all.
+1
I do have a pretty strong work ethic though, always worked and quite enjoy it. Not sure how I'd actaully manage being retired....
As for where it comes from, I come from a long line of Methodist Ministers, although my father messed it up by converting to Atheism...
have you seen the nature paper on mitocondrial hijacking by cancer cells from immune cells?
Yes, utterly remarkable. Steal the fuel out of your competitor's car.
IME it's complex, depending on employer, your boss, your colleagues, the job and circumstances.
I've had times when I've pulled all-nighters to meet deadlines, commuted for 4 hours each day for 18 months, flown back overnight from the US for a meeting or gone to Australia at short notice. Others when I knew my job was at risk that I spent days on Candy Crush because anything else was completely pointless just waiting for a letter and a cheque...
Having been made redundant 3 times plus multiple occasions 'at risk', relocating for a job, I've worn the t-shirt /been there/done that.
I have also noticed a degree of 'entitlement' with some people who seem to think the world owes them a living, expecting maximum reward for minimum output. I had a graduate working next to me who continually moaned about how trivial his work was when he was no doubt capable of far, far greater things - in an organisation of 100,000 people, with 80,000 more qualified that he was...
I worked in a firm once where following a restructure a mate of mine was left running a quirky side product and they spent 18 months deciding if they wanted to continue with it or not. His job was sales and so he spent 18 months doing nothing but he had to be around in case anyone asked any questions re quirky product. Sometimes a month would go buy where he did literally nothing other than some routine admin he had set himself - that no one checked. After 18 months they decided to pull the plug and got made redundant with a package worth over a years worth of salary.
Market opens in 5 mins and lm on here!!
But efficency is key for me, lm economic with my effort.
It a about the diminishing cost of return.
My current job has really reached that point. I could do it with my eyes closed, and I do it well. I could do a lot more, but I have to ask myself what are the short, medium and long term benefits to that?
Short, there’s no commission structure. Win, lose or draw, I get paid the same.
Medium, there are no annual reviews, no annual pay reviews. In fact I have to go cap in hand and beg/argue for a pay rise every couple of years to try to stay ahead of inflation. When we do well, investment goes to improving profitability for the owners, or more staff in other depts. When it’s going badly, I just get the pressure of being told to fix it and “next year we’ll all have massive pay rises”.
Long, there’s no room for progression, the job I have now, is the only job that they are willing for me to do, despite all the study and skills I’ve gained and in the very long term I’ve been told in no uncertain terms, whilst others will be given a ‘piece of the pie’ if/when the owner exits, I won’t.
A lot of people, especially younger ones worry that if they don’t do their best, they’ll be sacked, but it’s not really true. People get sacked for all sorts of things, but doing enough to do their jobs, isn’t one of them.
Yes, I’m having a moan, but I’d implore anyone who works for someone else, be honest about the short, medium and long term benefits for you, to work harder than you need to. If you just get a good feeling from doing the best you can, then do it (but you’d probably wouldn’t be here on a workday) if you’d doing it for some vague promise of riches down the road, be honest – do you really think you’ll be rewarded, or are you just fooling for Management 101 “stick with me kid, riches are just around the corner”.
Excuse me for quoting myself, but writing and reading that back was the final straw in a long line of straws for me, so yesterday I told my Boss I'd like to move on in the early part of next year.
I know that's like No1 in the list of things you shouldn't do, I haven't got a CV yet, not applied for anything, don't really know what I want to do. But we're friends and this place is going through another really rough patch and he's looking to make savings and my salary going in Q1 2022 will actually come as a relief I'm sure. It's our Christmas Party Friday and I'm actually looking forward to it.
I guess I'll actually have to do something about it now.
Well done P-Jay. When I read your original post my first thought was that you should just leave - life's too short and all that. I decided not to post as didn't want to risk adding to your bleak outlook, glad to hear you've done something about it!