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I am new to this and I am aware of controversy over pollution etc of burning the wrong materials but I am looking to remove ourselves from the gas network and installing a small wood burner may be an option. We have a small gas fire in our front room (quite a large room) and although largely decorative we use during the winter to supplement our CH. If we replace CH with an ASHP then we would be without this so thought a burner may fullfil the same need.
Can they be used in an environmentally friendly way and if so, how? What should I burn???
Can they be used in an environmentally friendly way
Simple answer is no. Unless you put some kind of filter on your chimney
Can they be used in an environmentally friendly way
No!
Flame effect electric 'log-burner'?
Cheap ones are noisy though - we had a Dimplex one at our old - quieter/posher ones are available.
There are lots of fancy leccy fires available now (random internet link)...
https://www.thefireplacecompany.co.uk/product-category/electric-fires/
Or even a couple of portable oil radiators which you could hide a bit.
We've got an electric flame effect fireplace. It's OKish but it's pretty crap all compared to an actual stove / gas fire...
I plan to have a proper gas one installed sometime soon. That will need a gas feed from meter and as we don't have a crawl space, it will necessitate chasing the line into the concrete raft and then new flooring on top. Still think it would be worth it for cosiness in the depths of winter.
I think your question is “is it worse than burning gas”
I sort of have the same question and I have a similar usecase to you. We have moved to having the central heating quite low in winter which is fine, but it would be lovely to be able to whack up the heat in the living room on those very occasional Sunday afternoons when it’s blowing a gale and we all want to chill out with books and board games - assuming wood is sourced locally, clean and very dry, is it definitely worse than a gas fire?
Ask yourself can they be used in a friendly to your neighbours way?
We live at the bottom of our street and will soon be choking on our neighbors smoke every evening unless we close the trickle vents on our windows.
I think your question is “is it worse than burning gas"
Thats a useful clarification, yes.
Ask yourself can they be used in a friendly to your neighbours way?
I ws thinking more widely as well but yes I dont want to inconvenience them.
is it definitely worse than a gas fire?
Yes. Emissions are worse.
Unless you're *properly* remote and either have no realistic access to an alternative form of fuel, most other options are better.
My thought process was that i have a generally good supply of electricity, but when it does go out (once/twice a year) it's usually a major network failure, 10-20 degrees below zero and it's going to be out for at least 2 days. So being able to heat is important. Getting oil or gas is astronomically expensive for infrequent and limited use (no mains gas, or facility for attaching bottle gas/oil to the heating system).
It also gets used when it's sustained temps below -10, as the GSHP struggles due to power limitations.
I'm in a hamlet of 20 odd houses distributed along a couple of km of dirt track, so no close neighbours. And those nearby are all burning logs when i am.
I also know how to get it up to temp quickly and have some extra tricks to make the heat spread as effectively as possible. (dry logs of course!).
I have another thread up and running on the use of log burners so clearly I'm biased but....
I'd say there is a lot of confusion about their use and their environmental credentials in the general population. The recent bad press has almost exclusively focused on their potential for local air pollution and the negative impact they could have...locally. We've allowed this factor to override the other positive aspects of their use - using a renewable source of heat, ideally grown and processed close to end use rather than a fossil fuel. As part of a combination of methods, alongside air/ground sourced heat & PV I think they have a place.
So for me - it depends - if you live rurally where there are not built up areas where the combined use of lots of households pollutes the air to everyone's detriment, I say crack on. It's a good thing. Especially if the geography of the area does not mean chimney output pools in the bottom of a valley etc.
I look at my use - I'm in a very rural bit of the country with maybe 5 houses in the square mile. I'm at 200m above sea level and the wind blows most anything away - I can rarely smell our own stove outdoors. I can also look out of the window and see the forests from which the logs I burn were harvested. I am also not an idiot - log burners are not rocket science, but it takes a modicum of skill/knowledge to use them well. I'm probably overegging that - it's not very hard at all - but it still seems to be too tricky for some.
OP - what is your neighbourhood? Even as someone who is pro log burners, much of the population live in areas too built up for their use even for me......if nothing else I want the clamour for good burning timber from the townies to go away and leave it all for me 🙂
what is your neighbourhood?
I live in detached house in a not "dense" area but on a housing estate. We have front and back gardens so our houses front and back are around 25-30m apart.
My attitude is that the local pollution will ultimately harm fewer people than the CO2 and methane from burning gas. I cut off the gas not long after buying the house and burn wood whenever the electricity mix is CO2 heavy. I'll go 100% electric when the electricity mix is carbon zero in the coldest periods. I burned under 2m3 last year.
I burn wood dried for about six years at present with a double combustion Jotul at full chat which is how to get the lowest particle emissions. Future generations will benefit from me smoking out the neighbours.
My insulation efforts continue and each year a little less wood is burned
As part of a combination of methods, alongside air/ground sourced heat & PV I think they have a place.
That place is a long way from anyone else. Unless you're not bothered about your own health, and the health of your neighbours.
They are comfy and give off a lot of heat, but they give off huge amounts of PM2.5, much of which gets put in your house when you clean it out. I live in a smallish town and it has far higher levels of PM2.5 than the nearby cities because of all the wood burners. Far higher than WHO recommended amounts and higher than government recommended levels (the government has not taken on the WHO recommendations as it cannot hope to meet them)
One of the big gains for this country in reducing of it's CO2 output was the shift to gas, so moving away from that to burn solid fuel seems crazy.
Our wood burner got replaced by a gas stove which helps heat a very large room as it allows us to keep the central heating low. If we were getting ride of that, then it's an oil filled radiator which seesm to be the best for heat. The electric fake flame fires we've tried have always been very poor.
We have one open fire left which we have never used but is a backup should all else fail and PM2.5 is the least of our worries.
Having just spent time last winter adding new and increasing insulation to our home I can whole heartedly recommend this. We increased our loft to over 300mm, added some to an external wall, eliminated all drafts and then put 200mm under the entire house. New heavier curtains etc.
Total material spend about 1k, the difference in the house temperature has been remarkable. Typical morning temperatures are now around 4c higher than before, and the heating has been on for much less time. This is in an 80s semi with what I considered reasonable levels of insulation prior to the upgrades.
So definitely consider increasing insulation. I had a wood burner in my old house, total install was circa 2.7k, which would buy a lot of insulation
I've got a heritage train line at the end of the street that last weekend had four big stinking diesel deltecs on a single train and otherwise has coal powered steam locos chuffing up and down for no reason other than people can get excited about Victorian engineering, 🤷♂️
Our log burner will be going probably next year or possibly the year after when we renovate.
One of the big gains for this country in reducing of it’s CO2 output was the shift to gas,
That's true but ignores the releases of methane associated with gas which means that in terms of total greenhouse gases burning gaz is as bad as buring coal or worse depending on the gas field in question.
An open fire is multiple times worse for particles.
Even Malpica and Fistera in Galicia Spain are over WHO limits - explain that. And most towns are over WHO limits even on the warmest sunny day because of diesel cars. In eastern Europe where coal is king in electricity production whole countries are multiple times over WHO limits all year around.
Use your wood burners without complex. 🙂
Yes, use your grossly polluting wood burners because other things are also polluting.
It’s an option on the right circumstances, we’re very rural and on oil so use the logburner this time of year in the evening to keep the chill off and damp out. Source of timber also worth considering we’re 50% scavenged and 50% local arborist. Commercial kiln dried and you may as well be burning lignite
Yes, use your grossly polluting wood burners because other things are also polluting.
See also Gas,oil,petrol,diesel,all nonerenewable electricity sources (and even they pollute as they must be manufactured)
Most people use grossly polluting sources of fuel in many ways and most of them have a choice. Some people in rural locations have no choice but to include burning wood in their fuel sources.
Here’s a pot of highly polluting tar for you to dip your brush in before you need to use it again.
lol at all those moaning about woodburners above driving miles to work daily, ordering carbon bikes from china and driving miles to trail centres for a bike ride! obvs usual rules about sweeping generalisations and not everyone is the same apply.
<p style="text-align: right;">Can they be used in an environmentally friendly way and if so, how? What should I burn???</p>
Yes.
Heat up quickly, don't slumber, burn dry wood.
Ignore the Monbiot acolytes. Until him and his ilk target open fires instead of closed woodburners, the argument has very little credibility. It's political.
Yes, there will be those who suffer with stinking smoke. That's because their neighbours are ****s, not because WoODBUrnrS BAaaaaAAD!!!!!!!
Yes, use your grossly polluting wood burners because other things are also polluting.
posted from your (ivory?)passivehaus I hope.
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burko73Full Member
lol at all those moaning about woodburners above driving miles to work daily, ordering carbon bikes from china and driving miles to trail centres for a bike ride! obvs usual rules about sweeping generalisations and not everyone is the same apply.
LOL all you like, but I cycle 40 miles to work and back every day and I can guarantee you that come October, my snot and spit will be black by the time I get home from commuting through the stench of freshly lit wood burners at 17:00-18:30. It’s bloody awful.
Strange that it’s not like this from the cars every day, huh?
Some people in rural locations have no choice but to include burning wood in their fuel sources.
I was replying to someone who had disconnected their gas supply.
Ignore the Monbiot acolytes. Until him and his ilk target open fires instead of closed woodburners, the argument has very little credibility. It’s political.
Another defence of cancer stoves because something else is worse...
As a hand wringing liberal type, we're having a go at bioethanol. But it's going to be expensive and not as warm.
My attitude is that the local pollution will ultimately harm fewer people than the CO2 and methane from burning gas.
I don’t understand this - are you talking about extraction or burning? For the latter the burning reaction for wood is primarily through the release of methane. 1kg of wood releases 1.7kg of co2 and around 2.7kg of CO2 equivalent. Gas is higher at 2.5Kg and 3.2kg respectively, but has almost 3x the energy density. So per joule of energy released, gas produces far less emissions even assuming perfect conditions for the wood.
Gas, like wood is most likely to release emissions at the start and end of the heating cycle, but for gas, that’s only a tiny fraction, but for wood it’s much higher, almost 10* higher due to the time to temperature.
So even under ideal conditions wood is 2-3times worse per joule than gas wrt emissions and that doesn’t include particulates. Gas is under ideal conditions for almost all of its burning cycle, wood isn’t and worse, the fuel varies in quality, further worsening the impact.
I live I a rural area, off the gas main and have a wood burner (it was in the house when we got here) we lit it on only once last year when the oils line froze and the power went off. our neighbour has two large gas cylinders which he uses in place of a wood burner.
Your heating oil froze? In the UK ?
our neighbour has two large gas cylinders which he uses in place of a wood burner.</span>
My neighbour has a pair of them doing his heating . Reckons he would be cheaper burning £5 notes to keep warm.
No so much froze as emulsified to the point where it wouldn’t go through the line in sufficient quantities to sustain a burn. We were minus 14-15 for almost a 4 day stretch and on the last day it stopped. The area of the house where the tank and line are don’t get any sun in winter, so even during the day, it never warmed up. The line is buried 30cm down for around 2m - just deep enough to be subject to the cold ground above.
My neighbours cylinders are only for their gas fire. They also have oil heating.
Do you live in a town or city? If yes then a wood burner is not what you need.
Do you live in the middle of nowhere and have a wood at your disposal? A wood burner sounds ok.
I’ll not mention air source heat pumps.
Daffy, your oil supplier can put an additive in the kerosene/gas oil to prevent it solidifying.
In the Guardian:
Daffy, burning sustainable wood with no overall change in biomass in the woodland from which it is taken has no lasting effect on atmospheric composition. The growing trees absorb what burning produces.
In my case all the wood is from neighbours' gardens. In terms of carbon emissions it's nearly carbon neutral. The wheel barrow used for transport I was given, any net carbon emissions are from the manufacture of the cast iron stove, electric chainsaw and electric splitter (jointly owned).
As a hand wringing liberal type, we’re having a go at bioethanol.
The pesticide use harms the local population and pollutes drinking water, the fertilizer production is high carbon, the machines and transport are high carbon, the refining is high carbon. Check out the carbon footprint of a litre of bioethanol. Your granchildren will wish you'd burned local air-dried wood.
Bio ethinol hvo etc isn't as green as you want to believe sadly.
I've a wood burner. Im half a mile from another house and again my woods local.
People need to split air quality from global warming. The drive for both isn't often mutually compatible
Ditch the gas fire and invest in some onesies* for those cold nights. It’s the only way.
* make sure they are made by artisans from locally sourced organic sustainable materials. None of that shite from China 😉
<span style="color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, 'system-ui', 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';">Ditch the gas fire and invest in some onesies*</span>
Absolutely. No walking around in Y fronts in our house. Yes the main heat source will hopefully be an ASHP and it looks like my questions have been aswered so thanks. Living in a (not densly packed) town (on the Wirral) there doesnt seem to be any justification for one.
Daffy, burning sustainable wood with no overall change in biomass in the woodland from which it is taken has no lasting effect on atmospheric composition. The growing trees absorb what burning produces.
I like the theory.
I live in a rural Welsh Boarder area. Prevailing westerly winds bring nice fresh atlantic air over the empty hills of Wales. Most people burn wood of some sort as we are all on oil or electric only.
I dont see the trees sticking there branches out and capturing all this crap, I do however imagine that it probably gets dumped all over the likes of Birmingham, but thats ok because its not my back yard 🙂 ?
Woodburners aren't cheap to buy, install nor run - and there's a lot of faff - just sort out your central heating properly whether it's air pump or gas.
Woodburners aren’t cheap to buy, install nor run
My woodburners were quite cheap (< £500), not expensive to install (<£300 per) and cost me next to nothing to run other than my own time and a bit of graft every now and again as all my wood is random stuff I collect/buy in bulk and process myself.
just sort out your central heating properly whether it’s air pump or gas.
And what hasnt been mentioned so far... insulation
I live in rural Norfolk, no-one close has mains gas, many don't have mains sewerage still, amazing how the government will support ULEZ and bang on about electric vehicles , but rural communities are left burning oil and supplementing with wood burning with no assistance to change from above
Absolutely I and the three nearby houses have no mains sewerage or gas just electric only (and most of us have solar and battery (because thankfully we can afford it))
Our options are severely limited (My opinion of people who put word burners in where there are actual options is very different to those who use them wisely because they need to)
I kind of agree with the above, but at the same time a woodburning stove is the 'easy' option.
Our house is not heat efficient, it looses heat very easily. Therefore if I moved from my oil burner to Air Source Heath Pump (we sit on solid limestone so no ground source possible) I am sure we would end up with a cold house that costs a fortune to run.
The only way I can see to properly insulate the house is to literally take the roof off and put more insulation in and have external wall insulation. I reckon this would cost me £30-£40k all in ??
<span style="color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';">just sort out your central heating properly whether it’s air pump or gas.</span>
It's oil.
I suspect the eventual answer for those of us living in old country houses will be being told that we shouldn’t be living there in the first place as the carbon footprint is too high…
I’ve also got a stove that I don’t like to use, but not got many other options right now. Cost of insulation etc. is less of an issue than actually finding trades to do any work!
Are burners approved by defra still evil? We live it the city, in an old house, I’m around renovating, 6 figures spent so far and whilst it is much better it’s still bloody cold and costs a fortune to heat via gas. And now I get really hurty feet when it’s cold which socks and slippers can’t keep away. I was thinking naughty thoughts about a log burner for when it’s really bloody cold, like below zero. Already have the oil rads, wear layers and have a blanket for wfh, therm is set to 19 for a few hours morning and night
have plenty of wood mostly structural timber offcuts that will probably last a couple of years at least.
one neighbour has a burner, the other has no central heating at all and the original open fires!
Having just spent time last winter adding new and increasing insulation to our home I can whole heartedly recommend this. We increased our loft to over 300mm, added some to an external wall, eliminated all drafts and then put 200mm under the entire house. New heavier curtains etc.
Total material spend about 1k, the difference in the house temperature has been remarkable. Typical morning temperatures are now around 4c higher than before, and the heating has been on for much less time. This is in an 80s semi with what I considered reasonable levels of insulation prior to the upgrades.
So definitely consider increasing insulation. I had a wood burner in my old house, total install was circa 2.7k, which would buy a lot of insulation
Insulation
I’ve done that, well as much as I can without destroying other half of the house, to above current regs. Ceiling is stuffed with it, half the floor is done, other half will be done when I can afford new carpets. External insulation is left, and that costs a shit ton of £££.
so are defra wood burners better or not? If not why are they even a thing
If not why are they even a thing
Because they havent been regulated out of existence yet. Yes they are great at heating rooms/houses. But at the cost of our children and baby robins. Take your pick 🙂
Edit: I am surprised that filters havent yet been developed to fit to chimneys, but I am guessing the cost is prohibitive. Plus from what I remember even the big power stations never managed to get their filters system working very well
How many BTU’s per Robin (Just asking in case it’s a future option?)
Edit: I am surprised that filters havent yet been developed to fit to chimneys, but I am guessing the cost is prohibitive. Plus from what I remember even the big power stations never managed to get their filters system working very well
Wet scrubbers exist for commercial wood-fired ovens. I'm not sure if this can be scaled down to lower output domestic stoves though. There are also electrostatic particulate filters for the top of chimneys too for lower output (domestic) stoves. So the tech exists, subject to cost, availability, reliablity, effectiveness etc...
They do exist - £2,200, plus install, which requires a power supply, and up to 90w in operation.
https://exodraft.co.uk/product/particlefilter/esp-particle-filter/
No idea if they're any good though.
Anyone here used one?
See, stuff like that scrubber could do with some subsidy to make it affordable, and then plenty of people would fit them. Just like insulation, stop messing about with all these grants which are impossible to get, and cowboys just increase their fees. maybe just remove VAT on all things that would make your home greener.
Is there not some new wood burner standard that’s better than the defra one - eco design?
See, stuff like that scrubber could do with some subsidy to make it affordable, and then plenty of people would fit them. Just like insulation, stop messing about with all these grants which are impossible to get, and cowboys just increase their fees. maybe just remove VAT on all things that would make your home greener.
This x100
It's not ****ing rocket science
Eco design means the air feed cannot be throttle back enough to stop thorogh combustion. So the burner always runs hot and rips through your fuel.
Designed really for people who want to let the burner smoulder overnight
Eco design means the air feed cannot be throttle back enough to stop thorogh combustion
So the burner always runs hot and rips through your fuel
You can't have one without the other. Your either burning as clean as is possible complete combustion and burning the fuel fairly quickly or your throttled back too much.
How did this get to so many replies without a Fahrenheit 451 pun?
Combustion heating is pretty evil tbh, but it’s our only option as there is no gas where we are. On cold, still nights the whole area is blanketed in smoke and I can pretty accurately predict when my daughters asthma will kick off.
Apart from the cost and the environmental impacts of burning old growth unsustainable timber, that was what pushed me to put on a heap of solar and a home battery and run reverse cycle air conditioner flat out all day. There has been a noticeable improvement in her health as a result, but we are not as warm without 50kw of heat pouring out of a fire!
Ecodesign - surely designed to prevent you from throttling the stove back and smouldering it all night. The reason for the design is to make sure combustion is efficient and thus reduce particulate emissions? if it’s ripping through your fuel that’s why. If it’s not ripping through it then it’s not burning efficiently?
And what hasnt been mentioned so far… insulation
I'm not sure what more i can do, if i want to add insulation i'll have to lift the roof (400mm in there already). It's all triple glazed. The walls are all insulation filled (from new, not cavity filled).
Oh, i have a heat reclamation system in the attic too.
Is there a legal height a wood burner flue has to be above ground? A house near me has a smoky flue on an outbuilding which can’t be more than 11 feet above the ground.
Eco design means the air feed cannot be throttle back enough to stop thorogh combustion. So the burner always runs hot and rips through your fuel.
On mine this is a screw that prevents one of the flow vents fully closing. It was not hard to bypass, I mean probably isn't hard.
<span style="color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';">It was not hard to bypass, I mean probably isn’t hard.</span>
To what ends though ?
I mean with the right tools nothing is impossible but why do you want to smoulder your wood?
just sort out your central heating properly whether it’s air pump or gas
The bit I don't understand is locally gas isn't an option. The local transformer explodes every 18months because it's already overloaded (I am sure someone will question the term but to me a big bang with a forty foot high jet of flame and smoke counts as an explosion). The local choices are wood burning stoves largely fed by wood from trees which have locally fallen and need clearing as part of agricultural tenancy agreements, LPG or oil. There are plenty of people who would like to try ground source or air source and even more who would like electric vehicles. The problem is until the supply is upgraded we're stuck with what we're got. Unfortunately nothing is changing because Western Power blame suicidal squirrels every time the transformer goes pop.
Fair point Storm arwen is long forgotten.
😃
Perhaps you should take that up with Western Power, although locally they don't seem to be too great on their specialist subject, so I don't hold out too much hope on supplementary questions