[Closed] Woodworkists to the forum...

Thanks

How big are the animals going to be? What sort of timber? How many?It may be better and safer to use a coping saw by hand for smaller pieces, or get an electric fret saw. How are you going to hold the pieces whilst cutting?

@jimw - At first we will start small. A group of spiders on the 10-20cm scale and then maybe try some snakes. How many will probably depend on Mini's interest and how good a job I can help him do.

I did envisage using a coping saw for finishing and that would be good practice for him. He would however like to have a go with a jig saw, so that is apart of the reason for purchasing and later on when he wants elephants or whales it would make the job more manageable.

The wood choice may evolve - At present I have some bits of pine cupboard and following that I was going to get some pine/ beech planks as I thought once weathered they can be refurbished. When cutting I was going to hold them in the blocks on my work bench - is that the best way to go, any advice would be appreciated on that front also.

If you're working on a fairly small for detailed scale a handheld jigsaw is probably a bit rough and ready and not terribly safe to work with once you start to work with smaller work pieces.

Generally speaking theres a bit of an inverse relationship with tools and wood - if you're cutting small items you want to use a large stable frestanding machine and hold the work piece with both hands. If you're cutting large pieces of wood you have the workpiece stationary and use a handheld tool.

So unless you're making large cutouts then either hand tools like fret saws and coping saws and make a sort of jewellers bench to support the wood, or a bench mounted fret saw or maybe a bandsaw would be the best tools.

Regular jigsaws can bounce and chatter about quite a bit and also tend to give a very splintery cut

If you're looking for animal inspiration though.... Enzo Mari's jigsaw design might be a fun thing to reverse engineer

When cutting I was going to hold them in the blocks on my work bench

the difficulty with jigsaws is you need clear space under the workpeice for the blade - the smaller you go the harder it is to clamp the work and balance the tool and manoeuvre it access the bit you want to cut without hitting whatever's clamping it and still have that open area underneath

The other difficulty with jigsaws is that their footprint is quite big which makes it very awkward when cutting out 100 to 200mm shapes. Some people mount them upside down in a bench so the blade sticks up, but just like with a band saw, fingers can get lost.
Invest in a small CNC machine!

Might i suggest a scroll saw. better designed for cutting out intricate shapes, and interestingly the tool that is used to make jigsaws.
Basically a powered coping saw.

Get a scroll saw, controllable and easy for the wee one to use. Aldi have them occasionally for £40 or so, badged Scheppach ones or you can get variable speed saws for more money.
YouTube and you'll see what I'm on about.

Beaten to it! Apologies dyna-ti.

Never used one, but the Rotozip type things are advertised as doing pretty much what you want.

Does it need to be a power tool? A coping saw with a fresh blade will move quickly through well clamped pine, and much less risk of injury, dust or ppe needs.

If you have a bench then make a v cut out from scrap ply and clamp your work onto that. A coping saw will set you back about £10 and is slow enough to not easily cut your fingers off. A couple of quick release clamps are cheap as well.

Always a more satisfying job if you get to make some tooling, patterns or supports to reuse in the future.

Thanks for all the replies.

I have a coping saw and we have made Proto type for the spider. Mini has an idea to use different size bolts for the eyes, a picture hook for the spinner and rope for the legs. Then some angled screws for the mandibles. Then he is going to get arty with the painting.

As we are making a lot I thought a power tool might be a better option and a chance to show Mini safe working practices.

As for the scroll saws what sort of power should I be looking for? Any other features that may help?

How old is Mini?

A coping saw is probably the best bet. There's no need for electrickery.
If you want shiny shiny check out the saws from Knew Concepts...

Mini is nearly 10 and is allowed to use various tools under supervision. I don’t think he will have the patience for a whole managerie manually. It will be him doing a bit with me finishing the cutting and then him getting creative with the decorations and painting.

This did look interesting though - https://www.dictum.com/en/coping-saws-baah/knew-concepts-coping-saw-with-swivel-blade-712553?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkbXWwcWo8AIVmO3tCh1WeQE8EAAYAiAAEgKrq_D_BwE

How thick is the timber/desired product?
Smaller and/or cheaper scroll saws will struggle with quite thin boards - the elephants in an earlier post for example. A small bandsaw that can take 1/8" blades may be a better choice. You will lose the ability to do internal cuts, but will gain significant depth of cut and have a more versatile tool, that is relatively safe to use (with a little training and experience).

I don’t think I have space for a band saw unless I am thinking of something different.

The wood we used for the prototype spider was 15mm.

It also has curves, unfortunately I do not have the facility to post a picture.

Benchtop bandsaw are not much bigger than a scroll saw. That said, you need somewhere to use them and store them.
A coping saw and a notched table or workmate makes a lot more sense to me than a jigsaw. Make sure the blade is set to cut on the pull though. Coping saws are about as safe a woodworking took as you can find which is another bonus. A Knew Concepts saw is very pretty and very expensive, but not much more capable than a classic Eclipse or similar.

Get a scroll saw, controllable and easy for the wee one to use. Aldi have them occasionally for £40 or so, badged Scheppach ones or you can get variable speed saws for more money.
YouTube and you’ll see what I’m on about.

100x this.  Jigsaw is asking for accidents for the type of job you are describing, if a manual coping saw is proving too slow/too much work then a scroll saw is the next step.  Excellent visibility of your work piece, easy to control the pace of your cutting, nice and slow for Mini until he gets some confidence and then you can bang out pieces in a few minutes once you get comfortable with it.  It's the exact tool that for the job you are describing, a cheapish benchtop one is ideal for the material you are using, won't take up much space and will give you the best results with minimal frustration or boredom setting in..

Just been out to get a scroll saw and nowhere has one! Order seems to be an expected date not definite. Looking online I can get more expensive saws, but I’m not sure it will be of benefit for my usage.

It has also raised the questions - do I need foot pedal control? Do I need a mounted light?

Thanks for the opinions and advice so far.

It looks like for the time being we will be using a coping saw. ‘🪚’

Naw, you dont need a footpedal, thats just flash, though if the wife has one on the sewing machine you can adapt that. Of course sewing machine foodpedals have a different plug, but im sure she wont mind you cutting them off and wiring in a plug and socket.

As above, a jigsaw is a tad more dangerous, though im not sure 'dangerous' is the right word to use. but used as a jigsaw ie holding the handle it will be tricky at best, though remember you can buy jigssaw blades that that narrower than standard to allow for tighter turns, and smaller/finer teeth better designed for making things like puzzles and animal shapes, without the need for heavy sanding,for the rough edge which standard blades leave. It is mostly a roughing out tool.

Bandsaw would be a good thing, but are quite big, in comparison to a scroll saw, and heavy and more expensive, and you cant just stop and remove the work, you need to cut straight through to an edge.

But if your stuck either with availability or cost, and you just want to try this out before opting for the more expensive scroll or bandsaw, you can buy an inversion jig that means the saw blade sticks upward, and all you need concentrate on is turning the workpiece to negotiate the turns and shapes. This is possibly the best cheapest option.
Availability of tools and machines currently is limited, due to you know what, but fear not, an inversion stand can easily be made by drilling a small hole in a flat board made from mdf or plywood and screwing the jigsaw down onto it, though its possible you might have to drill a couple or 4 holes in the jigsaws base in order to do so.
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This is the concept -

And here is a slightly better one, with some bearings to better support the blade, and make it considerably safer. Looks pretty easy to make and unlike most people, its likely being a cyclist you have bearings to hand.
Keep in mind that the jigsaw isnt best suited to a very tight radius, the scroll saw excels there making incredible tight turns, but you can always 'rough' out the approximate shape, then nibble away the excess.

If you can find a decent second hand Axminster or Hegner variable speed saw then just buy it. A couple of hundred quid will get you a good one and it's always going to be worth that so if you decide you don't need it anymore, just sell it on.
I used to deal in second hand woodworking machinery and scroll saws were something I never passed up the chance of buying if the mone was right.
Have a look on eBay for examples and you'll soon get to know which ones are worth having. Record, Scheppach, Workzone etc all do badged clones, you'll be able to spot them, they need to be really cheap to be worth buying. Cast iron instead of pressed steel bodies are what you want ideally and your money is genuinely safe.

Try second hand for a scroll saw, I sold ours a few years back on Ebay market place as hadn't used it in ages and it was taking up space.

OK, I will look out for decent second hand scroll saw or see how long new lesser models take to come back into stock.

In the meantime we did some work with a coping saw, however it is too small for some of the turns! I have been out to buy a larger fretsaw this morning, however, it doesn’t have the ‘hook catches’ on the blade like my coping saw blades. The saw itself just has flat clamps.

This means that I cannot tension the blade enough and I bend it in minutes. What am I doing wrong?

Surprised nobody's mentioned buying a chainsaw yet... 😉

Bear in mind that scroll saws, like hand coping saws, are meant for thin pieces of stock/material, not anything thicker than 1/2-1" or so (depending on model and material, but most small home DIY type scroll saws are just meant for thin materials, and you don't want to be tackling anything dense like Oak, Walnut, Ash etc with a scrollsaw). Because you've got a very thin, fragile fine toothed blade, that will heat up very quickly, and struggle with anything thicker. With lighter woods like your basic DIY type 'pine', you could get away with up to 2" or so, but I'd not recommend that, personally. For thicker material, then a bandsaw is the correct piece of equipment. Not as accurate/fine cutting, but a lot more versatile and easier to use. Cut off most of the waste, then finish with hand tools, maybe. An electric jigsaw with a thin blade (thinner blades for tighter curves) is good for larger pieces.

Of course, another method is to use a router, although this requires some experience to be able to do safely and accurately. I hate routers; they make a lot of noise and mess, and their best purpose imo is fixed into a table for edge and face routing, where they can be controlled much better. A CNC router is a nice idea, but perhaps a little above most budgets!

And whatever you do, it's crucial to get PPE'd up; eyes, face and lungs must be protected. Ear plugs;defenders are a very good idea too, especially with things like routers (very high rpm motors, sill amounts of noise). Actually, start with your PPE, then work from there.

This means that I cannot tension the blade enough and I bend it in minutes. What am I doing wrong?

Fretsaws have very thin blades, and are for cutting very thin panels. Jewellers use them. I can't comment on your particular tool, but it's possible you're just working it harder than it's designed for.

https://www.silverlinetools.com/en-GB/Product/ProductDetail?ModelName=453456

One of these - I have tried as lightly as possible. Bearing in mind that the coping saw is doing fine, it’s just not deep enough.

I was thinking 11 would be a good age for Mini to learn to use a chainsaw 😋. The router may also be a bit aggressive for Mini at present.

@bsims - That saw is really meant for delicate little cuts on large panels of materials. Think people making fancy pierced decorative pieces in sub 1/4” pieces of hardwood before routers or lasers.

It’s a lot longer to let you reach further, but has a load of flex.

Maybe a pad saw would let you get to the hard to reach bits?

https://www.ffx.co.uk/product/Get/Faithfull-Faips-5023969211565-Padsaw-Handle-Complete-With-Blade?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlr6pmv-q8AIVjpntCh3_jwcgEAQYASABEgIDmvD_BwE#

Thanks - I will get one of those. I have been doing some left handed cutting with the coping saw and Mini doing the right handed to get around the problem.

I see what you and bridges mean about the fret saw. I have been trying it out on different materials. Pity the shop didn’t warn me about it when I said what I needed.

With a fret saw, aren't you supposed to squeeze the ends of the saw together when fitting the blade so it tensions when you release the pressure?

I did that thanks, BigJohn, I think as further above we were using it for the wrong job.

Thanks all for your input.

@bsims; often, the best way to learn, is to try something out. Now at least, you have experience using a fretsaw. They can be notoriously tricky things to use, so perseverance is key. With practice, you'll be wondering why you couldn't do something. I use hand saws for most jobs (other than say ripping large pieces, that's when the Festool plunge saw comes into its own), because I am competent with one, and can achieve near enough the same quality of work, as a powertool, but with a lot less fuss, noise and mess. I actively choose hand tools over power, often, because to me, it's often just a much more enjoyable way to work. Might take longer, but there's a lot more satisfaction to be had. That's very subjective, and many people just want a job done. But for me, much of the joy is in the making of something, as it is in the finished product. When I look at work created by people along time ago, before power tools were invented, I have nothing but admiration. There's an emotional aspect to using your hands to make something; I made a small table a while ago using mostly power tools and I have no 'feeling' for it at all; it's just a thing, it has no emotional value for me. But it's all good, because it's skills and resources we have available; you'll value something you made yourself, far more than anything you'll ever buy.

When I look at work created by people along time ago, before power tools were invented, I have nothing but admiration.

Starvation is a great tool 😆 I know what you mean though. Im on a furnituremakers forum and there is several camps, with many seeming to think that powertools and fancy plunge saws, expensive planes mean you're a great cabinetmaker, but I also like to point to the past and speculate that many of the workers there and then didn't have such high end niceties and still produc4ed stunning work.

you’ll value something you made yourself, far more than anything you’ll ever buy.

Very very true, and it doesnt need to be exhibition quality. The other forum has a range of skills, trained and home diyers, and all share this same value and happiness for the job they'[ve carried out be it for a client or for themselves. My sister(probably thanks to me constantly going on at her that she is practical and doesnt need me or a hired joiner to do jobs around the house or garden, and has i'm just been told popped off to b&q, bought a couple of planks, sawn them up and made a simple fence to keep the dog in the garden. Knowing Sis, she'll be happy about it, probably amazed she did it and at the same time recognize any failings in it. I've not seen it yet, but im sure its more than adequate.

I also like to point to the past and speculate that many of the workers there and then didn’t have such high end niceties and still produc4ed stunning work

Whilst I'm not one for 'purity' as some see it (I'll use power tools when necessary, such as sanding, because who wants to spend their life sanding??), but there is for me a lot more satisfaction knowing I've made something with as few tools and as much by hand as possible. But some of my earliest work was done with the most basic, cheapest tools.

it doesnt need to be exhibition quality

No, that's for the individual to set their own standard. I see stuff made by some proper craftspeople, and I think 'I'll never reach that standard', but who knows? I like to push myself, have a real challenge; it's not fun if it's too easy. But the end product really is the ultimate goal; nobody else is going to notice or care if the tiny invisible details aren't quite 100% perfect. For some, mere functionality is fine. My wife wanted some shelving in the cupboard around our new boiler; 10 minutes with some leftover melamine faced chipboard a neighbour gave me, and voila; the perfect solution. But one of my next projects will be a chest of drawers; I will be dovetailing all the drawers, because that's the 'proper' way to do it. Yes of course I could just use screws, glue, even (urgh) pocket holes! But I'm going to do it 'properly'. It'll take a lot longer, but the satisfaction will be much greater. And if you're going to live with it, then I'm with William Morris. 😉

Rough cut the shape and hone it down with a set of chisels.

I admire the craftsmanship in a lot of old furniture; I make beautiful furniture myself that people pay thousands of pounds for (sometimes) but there's absolutely nothing the two have in common.
The beautiful joints, perfect finish and detailed marquetry in old pieces is usually as a result of the "10,000 hours" skills from workshops where apprentices were taken on at the age of 12 and did little else but train and work on less important pieces for years, and where people with chronic myopia were sought after because they were good at doing the fiddly bits.
I didn't do an apprenticeship, I came late to the craft with good design skills but dodgy eyes and lousy hand-eye co-ordination. I tend to use things like plunge saws, pocket holes, dominos and routers rather than handsaws, planes and chisels. They keep my cuts square and clean and accurate. And I defy anybody to spot the sign of a fixing unless they look at the back or underneath. (Unless you count the Blum soft close hinges and runners, that is!)

And I defy anybody to spot the sign of a fixing unless they look at the back or underneath

Don't ever invite me to look at your work! 😀 I've been known to crawl underneath people's furniture, to have a look at the hidden details, joints etc. But I totally get what you're saying; there has to be a balance between sentimentality and practicality, but that's for the individual to decide. Personally, I wouldn't pay 'thousands of pounds' for anything made using mostly power tools in the way you describe (I have actually not bought items on this very basis). No offence, but to me, that's not where the 'value' would be. But more power to you for being able to sell stuff for such sums. I actually like to make the joint/fixing a 'feature', if I think it gives a piece something a bit extra. But then; I will use a plug cutter and plug to hide a screw hole. 😉 So we all have our own level of compromise.

They keep my cuts square and clean and accurate

I'm (mostly) managing to achieve that using hand tools. Takes a little while longer though...

There you go, Bridges! Plenty of modern rubbish in there to feast your eyes on!
An extending dining table, media unit and jewel box made of oak veneered MDF, black valchromat (HDF) and a few bits of solid oak.

An artist has to be able to have the ideas and execute them perfectly. A musician can play somebody else's composition and a songwriter doesn't have to know how to perform. I can get away with materialising my ideas without much dexterity.

Not my cup of tea, but stylish enough.

An artist has to be able to have the ideas and execute them perfectly

This is my philosophy. I wouldn't ever be able to put a price on my own work, because when you consider hours spent on a piece, even a modest hourly rate would see pieces end up costing many thousands. My plan is to gradually replace most of our furniture; one problem is that there's quite a few original Mid-Century pieces, which are now worth a small fortune, so we could easily recoup quite a bit of value by selling and replacing them. It's nice having original stuff though.

This weekend, I decided to cut some halved housing joints by hand, rather than using a router, as most people probably would. Takes far longer than using a router (even accounting for setting up etc), and is perhaps not quite as accurate (not too far off though...), but it's the challenge I really enjoy. Really quite nerve-wracking (this Ash is expensive stuff), and no margin for error. I've actually surprised myself by how well I've handled it; the joints are almost indistinguishable from machine made, and to be able to achieve this level of craftsmanship, has given me a real boost, and some much needed confidence. I can now move forward to the next project, knowing 'I can do this'. And you just can't put a price on that.