You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Been thinking about a wood burner for a few yrs, and having some minor but annoying trouble with condensation in & around the fireplace where said burner would go.
Firstly, would opening up the chimney and fitting a stove help with the problem, and secondly any idea of costs?
Ta.
Cost - £2k fully fitted from an existing open fireplace/gas insert.
You would have thought the heat from a stove would dry out any walls!!!
Fireplace is semi open, in that the existing Victorian fireplace is already there, but has had the chimney blocked and solid shelving built into the alcove, and a gas fire fitted to the front. Doubt that would take much work to remove.
It may be old soot and salts attracting the condensation: consider having a chimney sweep in. My house is better for having a stove, I'm sure the dehumidifier doesn't work as hard, and there's more air circulation.
From removing the insert fireplace
[img][URL= http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq25/dantsw13/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsjcz8zl0u.jpe g" target="_blank">
http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq25/dantsw13/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsjcz8zl0u.jpe g"/> [/IMG][/URL][/img]
To this
[img][URL= http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq25/dantsw13/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsv8acwpzg.jpe g" target="_blank">
http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq25/dantsw13/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsv8acwpzg.jpe g"/> [/IMG][/URL][/img]
Was 2k supplied and fitted. Villager Flat C 5kw woodburner. Love it, as does the hound!
Using a burner and dry heat that then escapes up your chimney will almost certainly make the damp issue better
Amazed at the price folk pay to have one fitted. Its not that hard to do tbh
Yes, a stove sucks massive volumes of stale damp air out of the house and the atmosphere will be warm and dry like never before.
Amazed at the price folk pay to have one fitted. Its not that hard to do tbh
I agree.
Sadly you run into the whole building regs / competent persons shenanigans.
The condensation is probably a result of the property not having any ventilation anyway, so opening up the chimney will help with that even without adding the burner (depending on where you live) add a bit of heat and Bob's your Aunty's live in lover..
£2K? That's cheaper than I thought TBH. A 5KW stove would be about right I think, fireplace is 5ft high, 4ft across & about 2.5ft deep.
I'm getting fed up of the condensation issues so this sounds like an attractive fix.
Our jerry built damp flat roofed house is significantly warmer and dryer for having a wood burner installed cost approx £1500 . you need approx 4m2 of wood storage per year. We pay about 60 per m2 for seasoned wood.
Quality of life and air in house is much improved and you get to play with axes.
[url= http://www.stovefittersmanual.co.uk ]The Sovefitters Manual[/url] is a good website with lots of info about fitting wood burners.
If you need to fit a flue, I used these for flue kit [url= http://www.flexifluedirect.com/index.php?cPath=22&gclid=Cj0KEQiAl5u2BRC6yszC1_75v5wBEiQAD-hdzzjrzCTBG85uxGYhmufv9zG6cfGQ8Qq1V3iopY_dGkcaAr1O8P8HAQ ]http://www.flexifluedirect.com[/url]prices seemed reasonable.
Like said, someone with DIY skills could do it. I'm paying someone to do it and £2k sounds about right. The guy was prepared to use ladders, but I've paid for scaffolding as I had other jobs to do on the house exterior and it's a 3 level house, he was grateful for the scaffold as I don't think he was particularly looking forward to using ladders.
So, for me
Scaffold £500
flue kit and new chimney pot £250
^fitting £300
work to create new fireplace £300
stove kit (pipe, plate, connector etc) £200
Stove (possibly ebay 2nd hand) £500
maybe new hearth stone £150
Total is over £2k but some is guesstimate and I've offset part of scaffold cost to other jobs, which means about £2k.
Been for a quote today, went to a place called Ramsbottom Stoves, who gave me a rough (ie not looked at the job yet) quote of £2.5-3K.
They will give me a full quote next week but having googled them it seems some are unhappy with them.
Will obtain more quotes this week. That figure seems very high to me.
I'm sure stw can find you a good local independant fitter?
Its fairly simple to price the job up yourself as said above...
First thing to do would be to get the chimney swept, as it needs doing before fitting anything,by a sweep who is a member of the Guild of Master Sweeps or NACS and also Hetas registered as they will do a smoke test at the same time and tell you if its safe to use on their certificate of sweeping.
Ask them how many rod's they used (then if it needs lining you can multiply that by £p/m yourself either 316 or 904 grade ).
Then the cost after are easy to work out, cost of stove, closure/ regsiter plate kit, a meter of flue pipe, carbon monoxide alarm and a new hearth if needed. Add on a pot hanging cowl if it needs lining. Then as a guide expect £400/500max on top for labour and issue of a Hetas certificate.
Ps look at my classifieds if you need 9m of flue liner 😉
Muddydwarf, the stove will certainly solve the issues you list, but it will also make your life better by a factor of at least 5. It sounds like you have already started to take the leap into stove ownership, but someone who did the same thing a few years back for some of the same reasons, I can tell you that you won't regret it.
£2k seems like an astronomical sum to me too.
I did mine for less than a few hundred £ all in a few years ago- and it isn't too difficult, and is immensely satisfying to do yourself.
And yes, of course it will help with condensation.
I only wish I could install one in my new flat- which u can't... 🙁
Been for a quote today, went to a place called Ramsbottom Stoves, who gave me a rough (ie not looked at the job yet) quote of £2.5-3K.
They will give me a full quote next week but having googled them it seems some are unhappy with them.
Will obtain more quotes this week. That figure seems very high to me.
This company talked us into having a liner and insulation when actually we already had a class 1 flue. We naively beleived them. They poured the unused insulation into the drain at the end of the cul de sac, blocking it and infuriating our neighbour. The elderly "assistant" (may not be working for him any more) went into our garage and urinated into a plastic bin of my wife's personal possessions. We saw him but didn't realise what he had been doing until we discovered the sopping mess two weeks later.
Just saying, like.
I've already booked a consultation with Ramsbottom Stoves, wish I'd googled them first now.
I found an old threw on here that gave a negative (to say the least) review of them, also mentioned Bill Taylor so I've contacted him for a price as well.
Any recommendations?
There is a gas fire that needs removing and a fireplace opening up, not something I really want to do myself if I'm honest.
How easy are they to keep clean? How often does the flue need sweeping?
That depends. Burn only very well seasoned wood, with adequate airflow, and unless your flue is a bit odd it will burn clean and the flue will get very little ash or creosote in it. I'd still say get a set of brushes and sweep it once a year though, stops any build up, and you'll find out if you are doing something to cause more creosote, enabling you to tackle it.
that if you burn properly then you should not need that much sweeping
the real risk is burning unseasoned woods and getting build up of resins in the chimney that can then burn
A liner will be worse as it is narrower so it will "fill up" more easily
My boat used to get a small sized pan full of ash each season though that was on for about 8 months of the year and burnt only coal
But a smaller liner equates to faster flue gas flow and it gets out the top before it cools and allows the creosote to condense on it. That's the theory at least. The liner does need to be large enough for adequate flow though, 5 inch is ok for smaller stoves up to about 5kW, some want 6". The stove instructions will state the minimum flue size.
Cheers, sounds like its not too onerous to deal with then.
Those who have stoves, have you found they improve condensation problems around the whole house? Our problems are mainly around the gable end & fireplace anyway, as it is a solid wall & very cold to the touch.
mrbiker473 - Member
Ps look at my classifieds if you need 9m of flue liner
Yeah, unfortunately it was a few metres too short for me otherwise I would have. 🙂
it does because it is constantly on and it produces a dry heat
Its not a miracle cure as condensation is usually caused by a lack of air movement - again it helps with this*
I would not guarantee it will solve the issue but I would guarantee it will make it better
* mine is the kitchen which dog legs off the house and has no radiator in it where as with the burner i can keep the back room and the kitchen warm o I dont have the issues i used to have
The msim condensation problems are around the fireplace and gable end in the front room, if a burner stops me repeatedly cleaning & repainting the area then I'll be happy.
as above, I guess getting your chimney, swept, tested and looked at is the first thing to do. I leapfrogged all that as I needed work doing on my chimney anyway incl a new chimney pot, so I had the flue put in as well, even if it didn't need it. My BiL has done 3 and only needed a flue liner in one of them, so it's by no means a given.
Luckily the chimney to my lounge (in my little house) is pretty straight, so I got a 6" liner, the builder was talking about a 5" liner if the chimney was doglegged (I'm only putting in a 5kw stove so 5" liner would have been ok).
Re your quote of £2.5-£3k, did this include a stove?
Yes, the "quote" was fully inclusive of stove, fittings, building work & removal of gas fire etc.
My chimney is straight as far as I can tell but its been closed off as long as ive known the house (bought from friends). Its a C19th building that was originally the blacksmiths workshop for the coach house, my garage/shed incorporates the original gateposts for the coachyard.
The fireplace was originally the forge so I suspect the flue is pretty wide.
as mentioned above the stove fitters manual is very helpful. For costs there are a lot of variables, it might help to break it down.
Stove - anything from 500 quid to a couple of k
fitting - from zero to lots, depnds on chimney in place etc. think about liner, insulation, fitting, register plate, cowl. Parts alone to line a 'standard' chimney would be around 500 quid
fireplace - hearth, mantel, surround etc all fancy will cost a couple of k, a simple mantel of chunky oak is a lot less clearly
wood store - do you need something? you can do fine with a couple of pallets and a tarp but may decide you want/need more
wood processing, are you going to buy seasoned logs or scrounging and processing? if the later then chainsaw and ppe, maul sledge and wedges costs about £350
FWIW if you buy second hand in summer you get very good prices on ebay
I got a 1 k stove for £130 - granted its about 20 years old now but they dont exactly wear out - grate aside though mine was fine.
I am not sure what the advantage is in getting one new as they dont have move parts or wear out.
Be aware of outputs as a large output means a large fire and that means eats more fuel
I made a smaller fire box for mine with fire bricks - its a big fireplace and a small stove looked silly but it is a bit bick [ heat output ] for my needs
The fireplace was originally the forge so I suspect the flue is pretty wide.
They probably will suggest a flue liner for that then, and it will work better with one.
Also if you have problems with condensation/water around the chimney, make sure the stack and chimney are sound so water can't get in too easily. And that they use a good amount of vermiculite to insulate the liner and stop it rotting away within a few years.
if buying used on ebay there are some deals. They don't 'wear out' but can be damaged through over firing (so look out for warped plates and cracks), or using wet wood causing creosote and corrosion. that sort of damage is costly. cracked baffles, grates and firebricks also happen but are easier to replace.
oh and one other thing, over 5kW the stove requires an airbrick into the room in which it is installed to meet hetas.
They will as they all seem to suggest it but the fireplace was built for a fire so why would you need one?They probably will suggest a flue liner for that then, and it will work better with one.
A non leaking chimney built for an open fire will be , generally though test it, fine with a fire.
The room is fairly small - old house - so 5kw will be more than enough, we don't want to be sat against the back wall in our underwear!
This is why I'm getting pro's in, I've no idea about building etc.
As long as the stove has a big enough top plate for a coffee pot or a casserole dish I'm happy.
They will as they all seem to suggest it but the fireplace was built for a fire so why would you need one?
A lot seem to do yes, and in a lot of cases don't need them such as a "standard semi detached houses". But for overly wide chimneys which this sounds it is, it would work better as the chimney was designed for a large fire at the bottom, where as a stove would give out less heat up the chimney. So you'd get into the issue of a cold chimney and when the fumes hit it Condensing and forming creosote and soot.
Also if it is wide you'd need more heat in the flue to get the gasses going up and out the pot, and not lingering around the register plate at the bottom where it can collect and seap into the room/ cause a fire with fallen soot or creosote on the chimney.
That's still depending on how wide the actual chimney is once opened up as well.
Cos the chminey was sized for a raging inferno kicking of many many m3 of smoke and combustion products. A 5kW domestic stove doesn't.
Much like my mate who lives in the old bakery. Loads of issues with his until they came round and fixed it. By clipping 2 or 3 liners (one for each stove) to the inside and backfilling the rest. Chimney took about half a day to sweep before they could start working on it.
Now takes 20 minutes to do all three. Much like ours, guy turns up, sweeps chmineys, cup of coffee and on his way, all before his van has even had time to cool down.
dammit, beaten by 7 seconds.
And OP, get a stove fan, open the doors up and it'll blow hot air round the whole floor.
Are you Rochdale way MD?
Give Bryant fires a ring. They fitted a couple of stoves for a friend and he's well pleased.
I fitted my own with just a roof ladder.
Won't be doing that again. 😯
I need to get back up as well, as the rain cap I bought for the top of the liner wasn't stainless steel. It completely disintegrated in less than 2 years. Doh.
I self fitted our Burley Debdale 4kw stove.
First off I had the chimney swept by a registered sweep and a smoke test done.
Then the (dining) room with the chimney/fireplace in was knocked through to the living room to make the room space 7.5mx3m.
The house is ex council and built 1955. The chimney is lined however I felt more comfortable dropping a 6" flue pipe down and knowing I wouldn't have any draw or seeping issues.
The sweep HETAS certified it after it'd been done.
By using the 4kw stove not only was it the right size for the room space and able to be run nicely blazing, thus helping prevent soot/creosote but also meant I didn't have to fit an airbrick into the room.
Costs;
Stove- £455.
9m flue, hanging pot, cap and stove top pipe- £280 (would've been cheaper online but I liked the shop)
Scaffold tower with platform on roof- £200 for 3 weeks. Pretty sure they under-priced the job but I wasn't complaining.
Hearthstone- free as I found it in a field.
Chainsaw- second hand Stihl 026 £150.
Satisfaction...priceless.
It's very useful and comes in handy for drying clothes quickly.
I can heartily recommend both Stihl chainsaws and Burley stoves.
BTW, if you are getting your own wood, start now. Soft wood got now bucked and split by Spring and stacked in a decent sunny and most importantly brewery breezy spot will be seasoned for burning next winter. Hard wood will take 2 or ideally 3 summers to season.
Be prepared for Mrs muddy dwarf to complain about your sneaking off to chop wood.
as shedbrewed says, stihl are very good. £150 for a 026....you git 🙂 bargain if the condition was any good. for home processing take a look at an ms180, or a small husqavarna...or...if you'll always be near electric sockets the various electric saws from the likes of makita are actually pretty good....on a par with small stihls for a bit less, no noise or fumes....but the pain of a cable.
As I don't drive, collecting my own wood may be problematic!
Its not that expensive to have it delivered though.
My chimney was mostly sound, but a bit of a mess on top. Now looks the biz
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
Scaffolding to 3 story terrace house and chimney (also cleaned and hoovered guttering, painted soil breather pipe, painted window sills, hoovered roof tiles 🙂 ) £500
flue dropped down, fixed in place, new chimney pot and cowl, repair to top incl cover over chimney to upstairs, chimney repointed, downstairs fireplace knocked out to bare shell. £400
12 metres of 316 6" flue liner, top plate, insert, clamp, nose cone £197
Chimney pot, cowl, sand and cement, stone bricks, stone slabs £75
Total so far £972 (I've portioned £200 of scaffold cost to gutter & painting)
Cost for the rest
500mm stove pipe, stove pipe/flue liner adaptor, register plate, CO2 detector £100
Hearth £150 (place in Barnsley selling black slate cut to size, must be others).
Fitting of above incl fire proof plasterboard £200 (agreed with builder)
Fire proof plasterboard £50
Total cost £1472
That just leaves the stove which could be anything from £100 (used off ebay) to £800 (new), my budget is probably going to be £500 max.
I've had 3 stoves fitted now and the best job was the one where we did the labour and payed an unqualified sweep to do the final fitting.
This is roughly what I'm getting downstairs, pic is one of Mugboos. Bearing in mind that any plastering will be done thru insurance as I'm a flood victim, which might add some cost onto your job muddydwarf, depending on what you want.
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
My chimney was mostly sound, but a bit of a mess on top. Now looks the biz
And it having the wrong type of pot on for a live fire 😉
Wish I could manage to post pics on here, would be easier to explain what I want.
The built up bit in my fireplace is obviously coming out and will expose some brickwork. Depending on the cosmetic appearance of the bricks I'm toying with the idea of leaving them exposed - is this practical?
And it having the wrong type of pot on for a live fire
Oh, is that going to cause me problems mrbiker? I presume you mean that type of top cowl being a draw issue?, I could get it removed and the other type installed if you genuinely think it will be an issue?. I bought it and the builder didn't say anything, it's just cemented into the pot so could be taken out, maybe.
http://www.camsweep.co.uk/safety/cowls-pots-and-terminals/
Have a look a bit down the page, that's what "can" happen.
And yes, it can cause draw issue although you may not notice.
Oh bugger, cheers for pointing that out, I'll get it removed.
One of mugboos is exposed brick, which looks nice, you could get it repointed if it looks poor.
Depending on the cosmetic appearance of the bricks I'm toying with the idea of leaving them exposed - is this practical?
Yes but it is very messy
YOu need to clean the brick with essentially a sand paper disc, probably take a cutting disc to get it poited
This is all very very messy work
Even sealing up my doors with tape did not prevent the entire house getting a layer of dust on it and there were times when i could not see when i was doing this
Looks nice though IMHO- just mailed you a pic of mine
NeilNevill the 026 needed a new bar and chain and I serviced the carb and fitted a new plug. It's a ripper. I also bought a new husky 135 for light duties and it starts easily but is half the power of the Stihl. Struggles on the bigger stuff. My mum uses an ms170 and gets on well with it.
Cheers JY, haven't seen the brickwork as yet - will form part of the discussion with whoever I contract for the work. It may well be more practical to plaster the entire area.
Are you suggesting I use a 'mummy's saw'? 😯 ... You're probably right 😉
A little saw like a 170/180 is enough to process a lot of fire wood fit a 14" bar and it gets the job done without breaking your back to lift. However .... I'd love a bigger saw. I'd probably never use it... But just knowing I had it and COULD use it if I wanted. 🙂
£150 for a 026, bargain. The older saws are simpler and stronger for it, unhampered by modern emissions controls.
Ha! My point was more that the 170/180 was an easy to use saw.
If Stihl hadn't changed their selling regs I'd have bought one instead of the husky
A non leaking chimney built for an open fire will be , generally though test it, fine with a fire.
Put a big bore exhaust on your car and it will probably be fine as well. Modern stoves are designed and tested to work best with a flue. If building science way back when was what it is now, houses wouldn't even have been built with open fireplaces, so saying it was fine then does not map directly to now.
Stoves are better than open fires and stoves work best with flue liners.
This is the SS cowl I had fitted to our chimney for a multi-fuel stove:
http://www.loftshop.co.uk/products/cowls/colt-top2-anti-downdraught/colt-top-2-stainless
Unfortunately the small screws that secure the lid to the three legs were not stainless so after a couple of years they rusted through. Luckily I can get onto my roof quite easily to check the chimneys, re-flaunch, fettle the cowls etc. so I replaced them with stainless and everything is fine.
It's actually pretty fun fitting your own fire - I did ours.
Not 100% convinced it saved me a bunch of cash, but was something new I'd never done before.
I still need to fit the mantel piece, but that's small fry compared to the rest of the install.
I used the stovefitter's manual too...
write up [url= http://www.drpidgeon.co.uk/blog/me-manme-make-fire-part-1 ]here (part 1)[/url]
and [url= http://www.drpidgeon.co.uk/blog/burn-baby-burnpart-2 ]here (part 2)[/url]
Enjoy!
DrP
Disaster averted, the wrong cowl came off quite easily, luckily the cement hadn't set. Cleaned it up and took it back to swap for a live fire cowl, unfortunately there was only a choice of one. for some reason the instructions told you to remove the bird guard for solid fuel.
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
Roast pigeon then?
the real risk is burning unseasoned woods
the real risk my friend discovered was allowing his wife to drive the woodburner as the dripping wet wood delivered last week will all go on, followed by complaints about the fire not burning properly again, followed by another discussion about wet logs, followed by a repeat of the process the next time the stove was used. etc.
my friend discovered that his wife did not like trying to burn anthracite which made a fairly convincing reason for switching to coal
Unfortunately that's the powder-coated alloy version of the cowl, which doesn't last very long in the acid fumes from smokeless fuel. It should be fine if you are only burning wood though.
Burning real coal is risky because with a strong draft it can burn white hot, enough to melt the cast-iron bits inside your stove. My neighbour asked me to have a look at her stove (same Dovre 250 as ours) and I discovered that it was choked solid with reddish dust and the cast iron baffle plate had melted like chocolate. When I questioned her it slowly emerged that she had had a chimney fire (had never had it swept) and the stove had run away out of control with the intense updraft, burning white hot and overheating.
What about smokeless zones? Some stoves are exempt I believe?
Correct. Some stoves are DEFRA exempt, meaning you can burn wood in smokeless zones ie London.
stoves work best with flue liners
Not sure that is actually true tbh do you have a source [ from a nonmanufacturer of flues?
Basically you need negative pressure for it to draw and then for the thing that draws to not leak. I am not sure what best means in this context.
Turns out I'm in a smokeless zone so will need an exempt model.
If you Google for smokeless zones you'll find the DEFRA info on gov.UK where you can search for exempt appliances and get a list by manufacturer. There are plenty. A fair few require a smoke control kit to be added to meet the exemption, that is only a little extra.... Iirc it was about £35 for the Stockton 5 I bought. It's basically a replacement for one of the controls that has a stop on it preventing the stove being shut down too much.
Can anyone explain the important bits about regs for the hearth? I tried reading gov regs document J and discovered I have severe dyslexia.
Amazed at the price folk pay to have one fitted. Its not that hard to do tbh
Mostly, yes. Today, no! I'm utterly goosed 🙂 Got there eventually though. 150+ year old houses and their 'charming' features...
Getting back to the OP, yes, a stove will almost certainly improve things. Be careful about insulating the liner though if the chimney is already sweating, vermiculite will draw in moisture like a sponge. I leave uninsulated more often than not.
Hearth regs dependant on stove. Some require a constructional hearth, some don't, so check the stoves installation guide. Other than that it needs to be wide enough and deep enough from the sides and front of the stove, so as to catch (hopefully) any sparks/embers that may pop out when the door is opened.
I was worried that my hearth wasn't quite big enough for my woodburner after I read all the regs, but the HETAS fitter signed it all off.
Needing a DEFRA approved stove limits your choice, but if you go with an independant fitter you can get whatever stove you want, as opposed to being limited by which brands are stocked by a local stove company.