[Closed] Women only train carriages

Well white only carriages would be pointless as it wouldn't protect black passengers from being mugged.

Hope that helps, don't hesitate if you've got any more questions.

Just like woman only carriages wouldn't protect male passengers from being assaulted or mugged. Women are not the only victims of crime on trains.

In elections the voters like to know the opinions of candidates so they can decide which opinion they like best.

They should vote on what the candidates say they're going to do. And in this case he says he's going to start a debate on how best to solve the problem. Or to put it another way - he's of the opinion that we need a debate on this issue.

You're allowed not to know stuff, and to not yet have formed an opinion. Despite what they baying press say.

In elections the voters like to know the opinions of candidates so they can decide which opinion they like best.

Corbyn's opinion is that policy should not be decided by one person, that instead it should involve discussions and debates and democratically arrived decisions. This is dramatically different to the other 3 candidates and the bunch of stalinists who have controlled the party for the last 20 years. Hope that helps.

And in this case he says he's going to start a debate on how best to solve the problem.

But what does that even mean, it sounds wishy-washy to me and TBH little different from the other 3 candidates. People want solutions not talk. He is perfectly capable of setting his research unit off to give him possible solutions to problems then pick one, and only then present it to the electorate.

People want solutions not talk.

In which case it's best to get the input of interested parties before reaching a decision. Which is what he's doing.

He is perfectly capable of setting his research unit off to give him possible solutions to problems then pick one, and only then present it to the electorate.

A focus group? Everyone loves 'em.

But what does that even mean, it sounds wishy-washy to me and TBH little different from the other 3 candidates. People want solutions not talk. [b]He is perfectly capable of setting his research unit off to give him possible solutions to problems then pick one, and only then present it to the electorate.[/b]

irc - Member

Well he could have said he rejects segregation. What if the stats said most muggings were by blacks and people wanted white only carriages.

What if stats said most jelly was smeared over tall people and people wanted jelly free carriages?

He is perfectly capable of setting his research unit off to give him possible solutions to problems then pick one, and only then present it to the electorate.

Yes, they're called focus groups. How well do you think they work?

Doesn't have to be from a focus group, that's one way, but it's not the only way.

But what does that even mean, it sounds wishy-washy to me and TBH little different from the other 3 candidates.

You have to remember it's just one line in a long list of things in a document about one aspect of policy. It's not the major headline the press made it out to be. It really does look like they are shamefully attacking him.

As one user, possibly more, has stated that as a man they sometimes feel uncomfortable in a carriage then common sense dictates that unsociable behaviour should not be tolerated.

I've asked about the Transport Police but haven't noticed any response. Should there be more of them, visible to one and all? Would they be a deterrent?

Yeah I think so.

A lot of women seemed to appreciate conductors on Routemaster busses as a face of authority, even if it wasn't a policeman, really helped - I was told at least.

People want solutions not talk.

What people want isn't always what's best for them. It's easy just to sound good, but far better in practice to consult people who are directly involved in issues and then make an informed decision.

Corbyn - or indeed, any politician - may or may not be "perfectly capable of setting his research unit off to give him possible solutions to problems" but that isn't an instant process. Which is what he was saying, that he would "work with women and women’s organisations to take steps to raise awareness and tackle it" (and why the other candidates all said "er, we don't know, Corbyn smells, I have to go my mother's on the phone and I think I left the gas on" or something).

If someone hasn't got a solution to something, would you rather they went looking for one, or would you rather they pulled a crowd-pleasing answer out of their arse on the spur of the moment?

People want solutions not talk.

Also, you need talk to come up with solutions. A solution without talk is not going to be much good.

is there any evidence that females are subject to greater levels of intimidation and violence than men? A cursory glance on the internet appears to suggest that both genders need protected in equal amounts.

A cursory glance on the internet appears to suggest that both genders need protected in equal amounts.

'Course they do, yes.

is there any evidence that females are subject to greater levels of intimidation and violence than men? A cursory glance on the internet appears to suggest that both genders need protected in equal amounts.

Are we on different Internets?

Wait,

Are we on different planets?

He is perfectly capable of setting his research unit off to give him possible solutions to problems then pick one, and only then present it to the electorate.

And then when it draws criticism in the press show some true leadership by blaming his staff and promising disciplinary action?

[i] Cougar - Moderator

Are we on different Internets?

Wait,Are we on different planets?[/i]

Yes, due to WiFi range limitations, different planets necessitates different internets.

Lets keep this thread for the original topic of discussion.

Men's only train carriages is a different thread.
Different planet is optional.
😉

MSP.

Please don't turn this into a political arguathon.

Lest our resident Mod helps you see the error of your ways?

You are about 6 pages too late.

I don't often use trains so I don't care. Knowing that there will be carriages that I wouldn't be allowed into even if there were spare seats would make taking the car even more likely.

Would spare seats, where you are at an increased risk of being touched inappropriately, make using trains more or less likely?

wrecker - Member

I don't often use trains so I don't care.

I'm fairly sure that you're not a woman so that comment is neither surprising nor particularly valid.

[i] MSP - Member 
You are about 6 pages too late.[/i]

Edited in the name of peace for all Mankind and thread harmony.
🙂

Would spare seats where you are at an increased risk of being touched inappropriately make using trains more or less likely?

I think that would make wrecker sell his car and never use anything but the train.

In all seriousness though, the discussions are about trains late at night - it's pretty unlikely that after 10pm, there's going to be a major crush on the penis-permitted carriage.

Different planet is optional.

If only that were true.

I don't often use trains so I don't care.

And yet, here you are. Talking about a topic you don't care about, about a subject which doesn't affect you, to express the opinion that the people who do care about it are wrong.

Are we starting to see the problem yet? Bueller?

After reading the FOI requests and seeing that violence against staff, sexual assaults and assaults with intent have increased, I stand by my opinion that more officers are the answer.

You're not wrong. However, that's the expensive answer, so it probably won't happen.

@Cougar, and that is the sad truth of it.

Can't wait to see JC's proposed solutions to this:

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11750314/Women-sexually-harass-female-soldiers-says-report.html ]Women bully other women in the armed forces[/url]

Also, a couple of posters have hypothesised that "Tory" cuts in BTP numbers might be to blame - the number of officers in 2009/10 was 2667 and 2652 in 2013 (the last year for which data are available).

I stand by my opinion that more officers are the answer.

I am not sure that more officers would help to any great degree, even with them the probability of successfully prosecuting such crimes is extremely low.

@just5mins, why only JC's solution? Would it not be good to hear the solutions from many politicians? Maybe they could discuss it in a big room somewhere and form a consensus about how to resolve the issue.

Can't wait to see JC's proposed solutions to this

I very much doubt that you are in the least bit interested in what Corbyn has to say about bullying in the armed forces.

You don't provide any evidence that you are even interested in the subject matter of this thread.

[i] Cougar - Moderator
You're not wrong. However, that's the expensive answer, so it probably won't happen.[/i]

True, but taking a moment to reflect.

The proposed strategy of ever increasing deployment of growing numbers of CCTV, officers, etc, seems like a slightly unfortunate direction to be forced into.

Hasn't an effort to get society to alter of it's own accord, got a place in the ranking of desirable solutions?
Of course and not only has it a place, it's likely the ideal solution. Where no matter how pissed up or frustrated a Man may be, that he'd never think to stoop so low.

Social stigmatism of such behaviour, just as we seem to have managed with drink driving, is a worthy goal?

I'm fairly sure that you're not a woman so that comment is neither surprising nor particularly valid.

[i] @just5mins, why only JC's solution? Would it not be good to hear the solutions from many politicians? Maybe they could discuss it in a big room somewhere and form a consensus about how to resolve the issue.[/i]

Precisely! A solution, policy, can come from any side of the commons. Just so long as something comes!

Preferably after the right people have been consulted.

Just spotted this 'bumped' on Auntie Beeb. Nice little write up on what happened last time we had them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34061094

Social stigmatism of such behaviour, just as we seem to have managed with drink driving, is a worthy goal?

Sure. Which is one of the things I suggested in my first post on this thread. But that falls under "difficult solutions" and that doesn't win voters either.

Ultimately, you're right of course. The solution to any crime is to either persuade or deter people from, erm, crime-ing. But how you go about achieving that is the million dollar question, if there was a succinct "easy" answer to that we'd have done it decades ago. I certainly don't have the solution; I expect Corbyn doesn't either, otherwise he'd have said so.

[i] But since then there have been calls for their reintroduction. In 1999 it was reported that ministers were planning to introduce women-only carriages on London Underground trains. Last year Transport Minister Claire Perry toldthe Conservative party conference she was open to the idea of bringing them back to the wider rail network to reduce sex attacks.
However, a report last year for the Department of Transport, by Middlesex University, said this would be a "retrograde step" that "could be thought of as insulting, patronising and shaming to both men and women".[/i]

Hhmmmmmm.....

Would these carriages be locked at both ends to prevent male passengers accessing them en route or would they be tagged onto the end of an existing train with access only via the back door?

They will be like womens toilets in pubs and you have to go with a friend

True, but taking a moment to reflect.

The proposed strategy of ever increasing deployment of growing numbers of CCTV, officers, etc, seems like a slightly unfortunate direction to be forced into.

Hasn't an effort to get society to alter of it's own accord, got a place in the ranking of desirable solutions?
Of course and not only has it a place, it's likely the ideal solution. Where no matter how pissed up or frustrated a Man may be, that he'd never think to stoop so low.

Social stigmatism of such behaviour, just as we seem to have managed with drink driving, is a worthy goal?

Very true, but how many times does drink driving actually have a victim? People still drink drive, you will always have that one idiot that even after all the awareness training will still go and get in his car smashed.

My unit has discharged a few repeat offenders due to drink driving, that's even after being punished by both the civilian and military justice system. Some people just don't learn or care no matter the 'stigma'.

As a sidebar, having sex with children carries a fairly hefty stigma, those offences are still on the rise. Repeat offences have increased.

Effective policing is part of the solution, you can't do that if there are no officers to be seen. Having cops on stations and trains would definitely provide deterrent and reassurance.

Last year Transport Minister Claire Perry told the Conservative party conference she was open to the idea of bringing them back to the wider rail network to reduce sex attacks.

I wonder if there were gasps of horror from her audience when she made the announcement.

I certainly don't remember the media going into overdrive over it.

And last year's Conservative Party Conference was less than 12 months ago so I think I would have remembered.

[i] Effective policing is part of the solution, you can't do that if there are no officers to be seen. Having cops on stations and trains would definitely provide deterrent and reassurance.[/i]

Fair enough, yes, we might not, sadly, be able to achieve blanket compliance through social stigmatization alone. So yes there will likely always, unfortunately, be a need for some police presence.

Which would bring us back to matters of cost. Which reminds me of the bbc article posted by Cougar where it reports that people complained of the Womens only carriages not being used or under subscribed.

So to the point about increased cost of additional policing. I say it's a price well worth paying.

Proof that my solution to the problem has already been thought of.. Queensland, Aus.

[img] [/img]

I'd agree with most of this, Cougars post back on pg 3.

Cougar - Moderator
Here's the thing.

The sad truth is that some men are a bit rapey. Some women are a bit vulnerable. Put the two together and it's probably not going to end favourably for the lady. It would be a very, very poor state of affairs if politicians - nay, if everyone - didn't support the concept of investigating ideas as to how we can improve that. The linked article states (rightly or wrongly, I don't know) that "43 per cent of women aged between 18 and 34-years-old living in London had experienced sexual harassment in public spaces." That's a terrifying and depressing statistic.

Segregation is not the answer, you need to attack the problem at source. Education is the answer. Convictions are the answer. Making this sort of behaviour socially unacceptable is the answer. However, some of "the answers" are somewhat difficult to achieve, so I can see why something like this proposal might be being considered.

It's also worth bearing in mind that at this stage it's just an idea. There's a tremendous gulf between "election candidate has made a suggestion" and implemented policy, despite what a Daily Mail headline might have you believe. Essentially, this is how debate is sparked (just as on STW) and "is this a good idea?" - "no" - "all right then, next order of business, Homeopathy in the NHS..."

But, I do have an issue with:

some men are a bit rapey

Surely a man is a rapist or he isn't? Either he has non-consensual sex with a woman or he doesn't? For me the phrase "some men are a bit rapey" almost suggests that it's not as serious a crime as it is. Sure that's not the intention, but it comes across as flippant.

For me the phrase "some men are a bit rapey" almost suggests that it's not as serious a crime as it is. Sure that's not the intention, but it comes across as flippant.
This +1

 

More police doesn't reduce crime, forces been have cut back as crime rates have fallen. I think the proposal is futile and it won't protect anyone on the platform. Northampton council introduced single sex swimming and saunas to appease/appeal to ethnic minorities. This opportunity was quickly taken up by sexual orientation minorities, which was even more offensive to the ethnic minorities. Pretty quickly it all went back to mixed sessions. Isolating women doesn't protect them it oppresses them. Look at countries that 'protect' in this way like Saudi and India, misogynistic cultures where it's horrible to be a woman. How would women be seen who were in the mixed carriage? Asking for it?
I think people are safer in mixed crowds, even if that might not be such a vote puller. Women should not be isolated and punished for being women.
Btw the last time I looked offences against children, like murder, are fairly constant, they are not increasing

I don't claim to be speaking for all women, and I haven't had "a cursory glance on the internet" so this isn't a well researched and peer-reviewed thesis.

I went on plenty of Women Reclaim the Night Marches in the 1980s and 90s - the idea behind that movement was that women shouldn't have to feel afraid in public spaces, and the way to stop that happening was for women to be around in public spaces at night, not hide as home due to fear.

Those of you who say you won't let your daughters go out at night are contributing to the problem, sorry. Please don't make them feel afraid just because they are women !! Its just not fair.

So on behalf of this woman, this is a REALLY BAD IDEA.

s - Member
I don't claim to be speaking for all women, and I haven't had "a cursory glance on the internet" so this isn't a well researched and peer-reviewed thesis.
I went on plenty of Women Reclaim the Night Marches in the 1980s and 90s - the idea behind that movement was that women shouldn't have to feel afraid in public spaces, and the way to stop that happening was for women to be around in public spaces at night, not hide as home due to fear.

It's almost as if there being lots of women all together in one place inspired confidence for others to go out too. Can't think where there might have been a discussion on that basis.

For me the phrase "some men are a bit rapey" almost suggests that it's not as serious a crime as it is. Sure that's not the intention, but it comes across as flippant.

It was flippant, but not for the reason you suggest. I didn't intend to suggest that it wasn't a serious crime, rather quite the opposite; I have a tendency to use an "amusing" (arguably) turn of phrase to try and make serious subjects easier to talk about. Sorry if that came across as insincere, it's just my writing style I'm afraid.

hels - Member

I went on plenty of Women Reclaim the Night Marches in the 1980s and 90s - the idea behind that movement was that women shouldn't have to feel afraid in public spaces, and the way to stop that happening was for women to be around in public spaces at night, not hide as home due to fear.

Sincere applause!

More police doesn't reduce crime, forces been have cut back as crime rates have fallen.

Have crime rates fallen, or have crime rate [i]figures [/i]fallen? Not necessarily the same thing. (Cf. hospital waiting lists.)

dn't intend to suggest that it wasn't a serious crime, rather quite the opposite; I have a tendency to use an "amusing" (arguably) turn of phrase to try and make serious subjects easier to talk about. Sorry if that came across as insincere, it's just my writing style I'm afraid.

I wasn't looking to cause offence or cast any aspersions either. From your posts I wouldn't have thought there was any intent to be flippant on that subject. We do need to talk about rape and sex crime in general and I very much understand your desire to make it easier. Too often it is still brushed under the carpet and victims still feel at fault and feel shame. It's got to be brought out into the light.

Have crime rates fallen, or have crime rate figures fallen? Not necessarily the same thing. (Cf. hospital waiting lists.)

Yes, the National Crime Survey is a very good at showing trends because it is based on public experience of crime rather the police figures.

When a teenager sitting on a crowded bus, a young male adult next to me started stroking my hair. Nobody intervened. I reacted in a gobby manner whilst feeling terrified.

😐

[i] hels - Member
this is a REALLY BAD IDEA[/i]

Which was the general consensus during the article broadcast on this morning's radio 4, today program.

As far as I could tell, the women were all saying it wasn't what they felt they wanted nor would it address the real issue.

There was some sloppy reporting about this being Corbin's idea, etc.

I expect the iplayer will have this morning's episode for listening to. IIRC (I was on the M1 at the time) the article was broadcast between 8 and 9am (the last 1/3 of the program).

Most crimes are reported by victims, therefore variations are significant. How they are recorded may change periodically but I doubt to the extent that they would give the appearance of a major fall or increase. With the introduction of specially trained officers to deal with the victims of rape, reporting went up and this was in a context of overall falling crime rates in the developed world (I think Belgium is/was an exception). The responsibility for the massive fall in crime rates in NYC has been claimed by both left and right, an interesting debate.