Winter tyre dilemma driving in Europe WWSTWD?

Pilot Sports are absolutely disastrous on snow and slush too- they're basically 5 little narrow slicks with water clearing gutters so there's almost no forward/back gripping tread.

As a general rule, winter tyres get better than everyday tyres once you're below 6 degrees, regardless of conditions, though of course it starts out marginal.

Basically depends on where you'll be driving and to some extent whether you cna choose when- ie can you just not drive, if it snows. Or do you have to? And will you be in the mountains at all, or mostly down low?

Modern allseason tyres are awesome but there's ime no substitute for real winter tyres in real winter conditions. Depending on your car it might be easy to aquire a second set of wheels? People tend to sell their cars, then if they have winter tyres they sell those seperately so I've never bought a new winter tyre- I buy lightly used ones already on wheels for about what the wheels are worth. Works especially well if you've got a car that has responsible/wealthy owners, or interchangability with same- jag and volvo wheels ftw for my old ford!

I've got the Michelin crossclimate all season tyres after recommendations here, in preparation for alps driving (which never came off last winter 😔).

They have the snowflake symbol wich i believe means they're accepted as winter suitable in Europe.

They've been great in UK winter wet and summer weather, albeit I'm not your 'pressing on' type of driver and don't test bends to the limit. Much quieter than the standard summer tyres I had, equal fuel efficiency, have always stopped me in the wet.

Maybe get to play in the snow this winter, but seem a great all-rounder to save having seperate winter wheels/tyres.

Just get a spare set of rims and a set of winter tyres from a decent brand - Conti, Michelin or similar. Big difference in the cold and wet. RWD on summer tyres will be a miserable experience of dubious legality

I've had cross climate before and they're a super tyre but they aren't rated for winter - they have a B rating

Second set of wheels / tyres off eBay or Cross Climates.

I’ve got CCs on the van because I didn’t want to faff with another set of wheels, for the car I have a spare set of wheels with winters on.

Previous 2 cars I did the 2 sets swapping routine. Current car (and mrsg82s actually) has cross climates. Really rate them for safety and convenience of not having to swap wheels twice a year. Don't rate them for hard braking in height of summer or winter. Just not optimised for the extremes. Have been on the hunt for a second set of wheels to start the swapping game again.

If you only need them for this season with no requirement next year I'd be looking at Facebook for a set with tyres as mentioned above. Also for reference, I'd rather be on winters in the summer than the other way around.

Cross Climates are great all year round. They're a summer tyre with mud and snow rating so there's no downside when the weather warms up. If you plan on being in proper winter conditions then I'd go for a proper winter tyre but the CCs will handle light snow no problem, way better than your average tyre.

Also for reference, I’d rather be on winters in the summer than the other way around.

Unless the winters are Blizzaks 😳 I had them on the back of mine for a while and they were awful in the wet, like the car wanting to swap ends at every roundabout awful. (I think there are different versions, some might be better).

Is it a legal requirement? Oops if it is as I've never had any and been driving to the Alps/Pyrenees for the last 20 years!!

Always just had snow chains or socks. Would deff get them if I lived there though. Or cross climates at least.

Will you go in areas that actually have snow or slush lying on the road? An autoroute in Paris or near Venice will be heaps different to ones near the mountains.

If so, go full Euro look. Get a set of steels and don't bother with alloys or wheel covers/trim. Make sure they are the right bolt pattern, ET and centre bore diameter but perhaps narrower and taller profile than your current set. Then get a good brand of winter tyre and you are set.

Calm down on the driving a bit as they are softer and bigger blocks and as above, they work best in cold conditions.

Snow tires in bad weather are the biz. Just the confidence it gives on a wet/slushy/snowy/icy road is epic (and i don;t mean ‘drift king’ confidence, just ‘can i get up this slight incline’ confidence). As per others, cheap steel rims and winter tires of your choice prob the cheapest route.

And as per others, snow chains are the law (except in CH where if you have 4wd and winter tires the police will not stop you).

Winter tires can be a wee bit more wandery in warmer weather, but conversely whilst cross climates are epic as all weathers, they deffo loose a bit of grip to winters in bad conditions.

IMHO etc etc

RWD on summer tyres will be a miserable experience of dubious legality

why ?

Driving in Italy/ France suggests you will be driving in the alps ? The link road from Chamonix to Courmayeur can be be covered in snow but that’s rare these days.

I would be asking people who live in the region where you will be rather than a bunch of uk softies who put winter tyres on for the 1 day a year it now snows in England

Personally if you think it’s going to be a rare occurrence there is snow just have snow socks for that rare occasion

Is it a legal requirement? Oops if it is as I’ve never had any and been driving to the Alps/Pyrenees for the last 20 years!!

France I think you have to carry chains but don’t have to have winter tyres, although I haven’t checked for years as I’ve always had both. Not sure about other countries?

Personally if you think it’s going to be a rare occurrence there is snow just have snow socks for that rare occasion

Also this. If I wasn’t intentionally driving to the snow And it was just a one off I’d get a set of socks or the cheapest chains I could find. Although cheap chains aren’t that cheap depending on what your RWD car? My 3 series has pretty specific requirements as to what fits.

Thanks all. I don't really want to avoid higher ground entirely (and it may not be possible) so I guess a snow-rated tyre like the CCs, which would also not be too terrible if I get to southern Italy in early spring and it's 15C, is a reasonable option. However, looking into it, it's almost less hassle to buy a second car with winters already fitted (warranty, sizing, rating etc). Maybe I'll just go to Australia again instead.

I have winters fitted all year. As already said, they're not just for snow, they improve the situation as soon as temperatures drop below about 7C. I did some "monitoring" of temps during my commute when we moved to Aviemore 9 years ago. No month went by without a day when it was below 7C.

I’ve had cross climate before and they’re a super tyre but they aren’t rated for winter – they have a B rating

double post

I'm in the alps every year for a month, January/February time. Normally Italy, west of Turin and a bit further south. I've always had winter tyres but there are loads of people in the small towns at the foot of the valleys that aren't. Up the valleys that changes but it's still not 100%. Even with winter tyres you can regularly be defeated in heavy snowfall, and even light snow on an incline. In those conditions chains are the only option. But once the plough has been through, all is good, and often the roads are dry for days, even weeks.

Ive had heavy snow on the italian plain near Turin but that is rare.

Over all the trips I have done since 2015 I could have got by on normal tyres/chains. However like scotroutes says, winter rubber isn't just about snow.

Nowadays I would run a good quality all season, and carry chains - which I am pretty sure is a legal requirement anyway. Iv'e been stopped by the carabineri but they weren't interested in tyres. I have also been stopped by the gendarmes in france - they checked your tyres and if they weren't winter rated you had to put chains on to proceed over the col. Ive never seen anyone using socks in that part of the world - possibly because iv'e also almost never seen another UK car there but also everyone has chains anyway

Used to drive to the Alps in winter a fair bit when I lived further south. Bridgestone All weather control tyres meant I never used the chains I had used in previous years before all season tyres became a thing. If you look at tyres on cars in the French Alps you'll notice a lot of Michelin CC or similar on the locals cars. If all seasons are good enough for the locals then I wouldn't bother with full winters unless you absolutely have to make journeys at specific times and cannot ever delay your journey. Not driven there for quite a few years since moving to Scotland as it's too far but do like the Michelin CC for Scotland.

I would be able to plan to avoid high cols or heavy snow (assuming forecasts are fairly accurate). But it would be pretty handy to be able to go up into Apennines on a good day etc. I've ruled out taking my current car (not worth buying second set of wheels for just a couple of trips and very limited tyre options if any at all). So if I go ahead with the travelling I'll probably buy something more practical and sell it in six months. I can't postpone beyond April unfortunately and I'd try to time it to be in Siena for Strade Bianche in early March.

I love how a "what tyres" thread turned into "I'll just buy another car"..! 😂

Winter eqipping you car is only obligatory in France in the blue zones on the map from 1/11 to 31/3:

Winter equipping means having Winter tyres on or Chains/socks in the car.

In Italy I don't know.

Living in one of the dark blue zones I fit either full Winters (Michelin Alpin) or Cross Climates, if I were an occasional user I'd just have chains in the boot and adapt my driving to the conditions. Even with Winter tyres on I occasionally need chains to get up to the ski resort, and there are some conditions, Verglas, when the car stays in the garage.

Cross Climates I've driven up to 43°C, but never driven hard enough on them to note any differnce compared with a good set of Summer tyres. Grippy, quiet and reasonably long lasting. The full Winters do feel a bit different when it's hot under braking.

As per scotroutes, repeat after me "winter tyres aren't snow tyres". They are simply better equipped for lower temps based on the compound and construction. Yes they have tread patterns that are better suited to the white stuff but will not beat a set of chains/spikes.

Edit: sorry to come across a bit rude. It gets my goat when people say "we don't get snow" when the subject of winter tyres come up. IMO all UK cars should have all seasons as standard.

It sounds like a fairly expensive car, Merc or BMW, and it is sometimes not possible to buy a basic set of steel wheels from ebay for these cars. In fact for mine the normal steel wheel suppliers don't even supply them. You could simply have the summer tyres swapped for winters, we did this for a while. It's annoying but it's fine to do especialyl with mobile fitters. I found a German place with loads of used and ex-display wheels for MB/BMW in winter wheel sizes, if you want I can dig it out. But expect to pay £400 ish.

IMO all UK cars should have all seasons as standard.

Do that and you'll increase particle pollution, the number of tyres made/destroyed/recycled and the amount of fuel consumed/ CO2 emitted. Even within the UK there are climatic differences, a car that never leaves Cornwall will benefit from all seasons how many days a year? The Croos Climates are so good I can't feel or hear the difference when driving but I know they are costing me a bit of range and won't last quite as long as the equivalent Michelin Summer tyres.

I use all seasons because they make sense for my use, if I lived in Cornwall I'd just drop some chains in the boot in Winter.

Not convinced good all seasons do get lower range. In my Superb I get 47-53mpg on Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons. Looking for some hard evidence to confirm my prejudice I find these tyre tests. One on all seasons, one on summers. There is more variation within the groups than the categories. Looks to me like slightly less rolling resistance for the all seasons tyres.

https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Tyre-Reviews-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm

https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Tyre-Reviews-17-Inch-UHP-Summer-Tyre-Test.htm

Other than costing slightly more I can't see any disadvantage for all seasons for me driving style. Sporty druvers might want summers for the summer.

The all seasons didn't matter much either way most of last winter which was mild in central Scotland. Though one morning I may not have got home from nightshift without them. An ungritted road had several abandoned cars and I had to steer round an out of control car sliding about in front of me and a van which was stuck on the hill.

They may be marginally worse for economy but they are safer so those extra particulates would be more than compensated for by fewer repairs or replacements of cars having accidents.

Cross climates are summer rubber with a winter pattern,, so I never noticed any inefficiency and as the rubbets the same the particulates will be very similar.

I live in Norway so I fully agree with Dunc on not listening to softies in the UK ;-). Crossclimates et al are sold here as a summer tyre

Good Points, irc, I note I'm using the winner of the first test you link. The point you make about more difference between brands than a type of tyre than type of tyre is good. Brand selection is as important as the type of tyre.

The Cross Climates are on my Zoé and replaced the OEM tyres that I assumed had been chosen by Renault to flatter the range and anything else would probably be worse in that respect. To be honest I haven't noticed any decrease in range after fitting the Cross Climates and after reading your linked reports there may not even be any.

Cross climates aren't Summer rubber according to Michelin, wbo. They use a specific elastomer compound combined with a finer silica which respectively improve cold weather performance and wet grip but must have an influence on the fine particle emissions.

Crossclimates et al are sold here as a summer tyre

Same here in sweden. The car one (CC2) is not legal for use as a winter tyre. But SUV, Camper and plus versions seem to be.

The full Winters do feel a bit different when it’s hot under braking.

I've started to see heat damage to the rubber of winter tyres the one year we had unseasonably warm weather before the change over. (High speed running, heavily loaded, 20+ deg ambient)
They get very floaty and the tread blocks move around a LOT.

There’s no real downside to a second set of rims with cross climates on. I have a set of Michelin cross climates on my transporter in winter and big tarty summer wheels in the summer. Over the life of the car I wear through each set half as quickly as I would otherwise so the cost is exactly the same as having one set of tyres

If you really feel having winter wheels isn’t useful once you’re home, I expect you’ll sell on a set of winters quite easily and get your money back

I agree with those that say we should default to all-seasons all year round (I know Michelin try and market their Cross Climates as something different and don't call them all seasons, but they are)

Enthusiast drivers would want to swap to their 'summer wheels' and anyone that is bothered about tyre/driving performance should already be on the ball and switching tyres for the season rather than making do with summers for the 5 months of the year when they are driving during cold mornings and evenings.