Winter tent- tunnel or geodesic?

Agreed. Looks like an odd shape for a supposedly 4 season tent. On the plus side, being a Wild Country, the less poles it has then the cheaper it'll be to replace the set each time they break..

The latter is distinctly possible but that can be part of the plan as a tent that flattens doesn't tend to snap it's poles. So you win some , lose some.

Are you planning on using this on snow, or as an all year tent, in Scotland or so on? The reason I ask is that if you get something like a Helsport Patagonia it's great on snow, and warm, but the long flysheet (so you can bury the rim in snow) means it's way too hot in Summer. If it's really windy air flow under the fly on the Terra Nova will make it chilly

Are you planning on using this on snow, or as an all year tent, in Scotland or so on? 

Yes, very much so, and if I can camp up on the peaks so much the better. I appreciate you need a pretty hardy tent to be able to do that! But I love being up there and would love to be able to open up my options rather than always feeling like I need to hike down into the valley to camp

The reason I ask is that if you get something like a Helsport Patagonia

I've seen tents like this, they look amazing but I won't always be in snow, so it seems a bit overkill for me

In my youth I did some back packing in Scotland in winter. There’s a lot to weigh up. Unless you plan walking in the dark you’ll be in your tent for a long time each night, that favours a larger tent. If it snows that really tough on a tent.

I wouldn't use a Laser as a proper 4 season mountain tent. I've used them for years bike and back packing and always pitch in as much of a sheltered spot as I can find. It'll get blown to bits in a proper gale. You'll also probly get wet as you'll be almost touching the inner fabric everywhere as they're quite compact.

I use a Quasar (geodesic dome) for proper winter mountain use. It's about as strong as they come but weighs over 4kg and still would get blown flat if you plonked it on the top of Cairngorm in a proper hoolie. I.e. tents have their limits.

I use a Quasar (geodesic dome) for proper winter mountain use. It’s about as strong as they come but weighs over 4kg and still would get blown flat if you plonked it on the top of Cairngorm in a proper hoolie. I.e. tents have their limits

I was wondering about this. Maybe I am asking too much and just need to accept that, sometimes, you need to be a bit sensible!

I have a geo and it makes sense to me that they stand up better in foul weather. Also they are easier to move around when pitching. However, Hilleberg tunnels apparently stand the winds very well so it's not cut and dried. So did my mates old Blacks Mountain Tent, though no-one in their right mind would want to carry one.

Unless you plan walking in the dark you’ll be in your tent for a long time each night,

Yep, the short days are a massive problem to be fair!

Winter or 4 season tents are generally designed to be able to withstand snowfall IIRC, and as have been mentioned already some come with snow valances that you bury in the snow - basically an extra long flysheet. The downside is condensation as it restricts airflow. I've used them in the arctic where you are pitching on several feet of snow, in Scotland that is less likely of course

IMO the main criteria for Scotland is stability and strength in high winds, and  general weatherproofing. I have a Terra Nova Voyager that is rated as 3 season as it can't really take heavy snow on its flattish roof. However it is extremely stable in high winds, and otherwise a good design for the UK with low cut fly and bathtub groundsheet. It has managed snow fall on the roof, just not loads of it. In reality, snow on scottish hills is generally going sideways and not vertically, so the big build up on the roof of your tent won't happen like it does in the Patagonia catalogue.

So a good solid 3 season tent will probably suffice in the real world and probably be quite a bit lighter.  Personally i'd be looking at geodesics as they will stand on their own and providing you are in it, they (probably) won't blow away!! I have a Quasar too, and while it's going to stay standing after all your clothes have been ripped from your shivering body, it is heavy.

The Laser wouldn't be my first choice for a winter tent, you could make it work with a sheltered pitch but it is gonna get battered in a strong wind! Lots of fairly flappy panels to catch the wind and drive you mad. Once the pegs rip out it will be misery.

There are a few MSR tents that look pretty good and seem to have good customer support. They do tend to have quite high cut flysheets though, something to think about in blowy weather. On the plus side they come in at good weights

Ultralightoutdoorgear website is a good site to peruse lots of tents and compare weights and staff reviews, well worth a look

I wouldn’t use a Laser as a proper 4 season mountain tent

Apparently this one has been beefed up with materials from the Quasar range to make it suitable for winter

The Hilleberg Soulo and the beefed up Tarptent Scarp model were always the standard answers to this question. For a Scottish winter I'd take a bigger, lighter tent and choose my higher camps based on the weather forecast.

Some great advice, thanks! Sounds like a geodesic is the way to go unfortunately. They all seem to be a bit short and bulky when packed! I'll keep looking

For a Scottish winter I’d take a bigger, lighter tent and choose my higher camps based on the weather forecast.

Yeah this^^

I'm pretty sure my wife's colleague just bivvies. She holds the female munro record (12 rounds) so presumably knows her stuff.

https://flic.kr/p/Gijwrk

This one looks like it might be a bit more sturdy in a high wind, and it's long enough for me

https://ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/copper-spur-hv2-expedition-tent/

It's a lot more bulky when packed though, and that colour is not exactly going to blend in with the pristine countryside!

The Laser is a variation on the old Saunders Spacepacker design ie transverse ridge.

It'll probly survive but you'll get damp/wet and won't get a lot of sleep. You want more space, more poles and heavier duty for multi day winter use.

Anything will do for one night in a sheltered spot but multiple nights requires a different approach if you don't want to have a miserable time.

This is an interesting tent and it comes in bigger versions too. It's basically a beefed up NX tent

http://ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/2021-access-1-tent/

Something to be aware of is that winter tents generally have solid pertex inners, whereas non winter tents have mesh inners, or at least mostly mesh. This makes them lighter, but draftier and colder. A solid inner has less good ventilation though.

Scarp 1 would be a good choice. You can pitch it with one pole or use the optional crossing poles in more inclement  conditions. I have one and my winter Twitter feed always features some on the Scottish mountains.

That Hilleberg Soulo looks just about long enough for me (it needs to be 220cm min really) but a little spenny tho!

The Scarp looks awesome but too short for me unfortunately!

Whether you need crossed poles rather than separate hoops is partly influenced by whether you can peg guys securely. The hoop on the Laser has two guys each side, and they are essential to keeping the hoop the right shape. If you lose the guys, the hoop is likely to distort badly and possible break. A geodesic can be placed on hard ground and will be stable, you just need enough weight to stop it blowing away.

I've used tunnel style tents in winter - fine unless it's really windy. This was a Macpac Minaret II tent which I think Cougar bought off me. It was pretty decent in strong winds, would have to be gale force to cause it a problem.

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/8369/8454694548_9594b817fc_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/8369/8454694548_9594b817fc_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/dT7w8E ]CAMPING ON RED PIKE[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

Also had a TNF VE-25 Geodesic - which was larger and generally more beefy..

Actually that Tarptent Scarp looks fine- I misread the specs- can you buy them in the UK?

Maybe just avoid days when there's a gale likely....

A few years ago I did a night in -20 in January in Norway camping to prove a point..... it's possible to be cozy in the bag but it's super cold in most tents,, and a long night.. dark by 4, light at 9. Bivvying in that would not be to my taste.

What are you planning as a stove? Gas or burner?

Gas

and a long night.

I used to take a portable radio - listened to that to help pass the time....

A few years ago I did a night in -20 in January in Norway camping to prove a point…

That's not really that cold by modern down bag standards, a bag bag for -20 C isn't that large - maybe 750g filling.

Tunnel or geodesic I'd still choose one from a company that stands behind their product.

I won't take another Terra Nova/wild country product on tour.

Fool me once thats ok , fool me twice fair enough . You won't fool me a third time.

They wouldn't even respond after the second failure. The tent poles lasted 3 nights of our Canada cycle tour before I had to start repairing it. Great headline weight. Not to be trusted. Should have bought the hilleberg.

My and I were bike touring up the top of Scotland a few years back. He had a tunnel tent and I had a geodesic one. It was pretty windy. His tent got flattened but mine was fine. 🤷‍♂️

I think high winds can happen any time of year. As above, your issue is going to be snow and you need something that can stand up to it. Don't go light weight.

I recall when the Peapods came out - the first hooped tunnels. I think we were up in Torridon in winter and it was a bit blowy. The Peapod kept flattening then bouncing back. It survived the night but I don't think the people inside got much kip...

A winter tent isn’t usually a light tent. As you will be in it from 6pm until 7am you need something bigger imo so you can at least sit up in it and have room inside for all your winter gear.

I have a hilleberg akto and soulo - and both are too small imo for winter camping.

It survived the night but I don’t think the people inside got much kip

This is what concerns me. I've spent the night worrying about the tent instead of sleeping before, not much fun!

That Tarptent Scarp works out at anout £620 with shipping and taxes from the US. I might wait a bit and see if the pound gets any stronger..

I was lucky enough to buy mine second-hand off the STW Classifieds many moons ago!

I won’t take another Terra Nova/wild country product on tour.

Fool me once thats ok , fool me twice fair enough . You won’t fool me a third time.

They wouldn’t even respond after the second failure. The tent poles lasted 3 nights of our Canada cycle tour before I had to start repairing it. Great headline weight. Not to be trusted. Should have bought the hilleberg.

Sadly this. I got fed up of having to pay for new Quasar poles continuously. The tent was great when it was pitched, just had a habit of shattering poles when pitching it.

In think a Hilleberg Akto will stand up to the wind and snow… bit it will be quite small to spend 12+ hours in.

I have a Hilleberg Nallo and that is pretty good, if a bit noisy, in a wind.

We had a 3 hoop Hillberg for our Scotland in winter stuff. I think Bo he recommends double poling if it gets really bad

I was lucky enough to buy mine second-hand off the STW Classifieds many moons ago

Very lucky! 😀

A winter tent isn’t usually a light tent. As you will be in it from 6pm until 7am you need something bigger imo so you can at least sit up in it and have room inside for all your winter gear.

I have a hilleberg akto and soulo – and both are too small imo for winter camping.

More like 5pm to 8am, or longer in the Highlands, if not longer.

I've got a soulo too. For me it's about the right compromise - pretty tough and only medium heavy. Not sure I'd want to go any less robust, especially on a solo trip; but whilst if it was bigger it'd be heavier and weight is already such a big issue in the winter (especially solo) that I'll take a bit cramped as the compromise. If the weather was too tough for a soulo it's probably an error being there solo and you should be with someone and therefore in a 2 man tent.

I've found UK winter in the mountains is all about compromises - unpredictably slow travel, less predicable weather and good pitching less certain. Add a good dollop of reduced hours of lights and I'd want a tent that can pitch well in compromised circumstances (ground quality and or wind speed/direction) so geodesic or semi geodesic makes sense to improve your chances of a safe and comfortable night.

We do a grim kind of winter in the UK. The bluebird days are few and far between. The biggest difference moving to the Highlands has made for me in the winter is choosing my timing more freely and carefully. This is ten fold more important with over nights in comparison to day trips. When I used to just visit regularly I'd force the trip I wanted to do to fit the time I was up. Recipe for some rubbish and/or lethal experiences.

I spent a couple of winters living out of a tent in the Highlands and found a tipi tent was a good compromise for 16 hour nights in terms of space and weight (I'm 6' 4").

https://flic.kr/p/VBurYd

They handle snow well.

https://flic.kr/p/fn5vxX

I wouldn't spend the night on Ben Macdui in one during a hurricane - but then I wouldn't choose to do that in any tent. That's what weather forecasts and bothies are for.

My current winter tent is a Luxe tipi, pictured here on the summit plateau of Cadair Idris this January:
[img] [/img]

As a bonus, the central pole (I use a trekking pole lash-up) makes a good FM radio booster - tie the radio aerial to it, and there were very few places even in remote glens where I couldn't suck in a signal.

Review of the Big Agnes Copper Spur HV2 Expedition tent here:

https://ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/blog/cairngorm-treks-review-big-agnes-copper-spur-hv2-expedition-6b2bd2/

They seem to have tested it pretty thoroughly including in 50-60 mph winds, hopefully they are reliable reviewers. I really want them to be because this tent is much more affordable! The packed size is a lot more bulky than the Tarptent or Hilleberg options though

I use a trekking pole lash-up

How do you lash your poles together?

One pole, with a sawn off extension piece made from another old pole surplus to requirements. You can also buy joining sections to use two poles.

So you're shoving the end section of an old pole on to the bottom of a complete pole?

Personally, I wouldn't use a tent that relies on Trecking poles. I've bent mine reasonably frequently and they can get lost. It would be annoying (to say the least) being unable to pitch because of this. I like to separate the duty of things when I really really need them to work. E.g. camera/nav/phone. Fine to just use a phone when it's not serious, not so when you really need them to work/have charge.

I've a Big Agnes Seedhouse SL2 which I use for 2 person bike/back packing or solo long distance bikepacking. There are lots of wavy wand type poles held together with little bits of plastic and it's in no way geodesic (i.e. made up of triangles). I would image, they're great up to a point in winter - spacious etc but not particularly wind resistant or robust. I note the Copper Spur Exped has a nylon inner rather than the usual Yankee mesh. This is important as a mesh inner can be bloody draughty and cold in winter. Also watch for pitching inner first followed by clipping on the flysheet with lots of little buckles/clips. It's a PIA in 'normal' conditions (rain) so in Winter it could be a bit of a fight...

I wouldn’t spend the night on Ben Macdui in one during a hurricane – but then I wouldn’t choose to do that in any tent. That’s what weather forecasts and bothies are for.

This
In my view there's something rather dangerous about YouTubers/Insta/Influencers heading out for wild camps in properly dodgy weather and pitching high on a summit. Then pop an image up or show 30seconds of a tent flapping.
Good campcraft and hillcraft says 'why the heck would you do that?'
I watched one where two of them had tents basically flattened all night, and in the morning they took a photo and bailed out. In the background of the photo was a sheep fank I've camped in before - surrounded by 5' high walls with flat grass inside... 🤦‍♂️

.
That said, a good winter camp is ace and stretches your skills and preparation. You know it's cold when it 'snows' inside the tent...

And tent wise: I'm a tunnel tent fan. My tents have been a Macpack Minaret (nearly 3kg...), then Alpkit Delta (too light for heavy weather, and not as stable) and Robens Arch.
I also oversee DofE and previously outdoor centre kit store. When pitched right, the tunnel tents have all survived wild weather better than tents with really long poles. A couple of times I've had to get up and rotate the tent to realign with the wind.
My Minaret was the last tent standing of 7 on an ML assessment - and one of the other tents flattened and pole broken was a Quasar...
But a 3 or 4 season strong mountain tent is not light or compact when packed.

I've had two Minarets and used them everywhere from Scotland to the Andes, bombproof for me. Tunnels can be really stable in high winds, but rely on proper orientation - need to be pitched end on to the wind direction - and stable guying. Geodesics tend to be less fussy about wind direction and are generally less reliant on guys / pegging for structural rigidity. There's also a school of thought that says tunnels distort in high winds, while geodesics are more ikely to simply fail catastrophically because there's less 'give' in the structure.

I owuldn't use a Laser of any type. Nasty, fiddly, claustrophobic things and everyone I know who has one has had problems with breakages etc.

Full winter tents tend to be heavy and sometimes poorly vented thans to lack of mesh. I have an MSR Access 1, which is a sort of four-season valley tent and its achilles heel is poor ventilation, but it's strong for its weight and while I wouldn't pitch it in an exposed place in really foul conditions, for 'normal' winter stuff it's good and reassuringly more robust than lightweight, spring/summer tents.

I guess the obvious question is always what are the worst conditions you expect to encounter and how much of a margin do you need beyond that? The problem you have is that while you can buy a tent that'll cope with pretty much anything in extremis, it will also tend to be heavy and bulky as a result.

So you’re shoving the end section of an old pole on to the bottom of a complete pole?

No, a section inserted into the middle of the pole; the handle supporting the apex of the tent, the ferrule planted in the ground. Black Diamond Expedition pole - solid, it's not going anywhere.

+1 for Pyramid type tents, one other advantage is that you don't really to worry too much about the wind shifting during the night as they have the same profile on each side. They can also be used without an inner which means you can keep your boots on inside and dig down into the floor to make a cold sink.

They can also be used without an inner which means you can keep your boots on inside and dig down into the floor to make a cold sink.

What's a cold sink?

I'd like to add to the macpac love-in, but I can never work out how to post images these days.
https://imgur.com/gallery/MNDEoCD

OK, I'll concede this was May rather than wintertime, but it had happily stood up to a rough old wet and windy night immediately before taking the pic
Minaret in mid Wales

Are Macpac still good? They've been bought out, no?

And here is a Nallo GT in some Welsh snow.

https://flic.kr/p/2nVSVgA

As well as the Nallo I have a Helags for summer use. It has a higher cut fly sheet and mesh doors so isn’t a winter tent; but it is quieter in the wind than the Nallo. I think that is because the poles are closer together.

I recon that the Kaitum, a winter version of the Helags would be a great tent as it has loads of room and would be solid. It is very expensive tho.

What’s a cold sink?

No idea but looking at what it says on the tin I presume it a hole that's lower than the bit of ground you're sleeping on that allows the cold air to sink into the hole rather than being around you.

As ever it sounds like something that could be more easily dealt with by a better sleeping bag, but that's not as cool trendy.

Yes, this ^
It also allows you to sit up with your feet in the pit, which is generally a bit more pleasant for cooking, getting dressed, etc.
If you don't fancy getting out of the tent for a piss then it also doubles as a toilet, but obviously that is disgusting and I would never do it 🤫

I'm a bit surprised by the love for pyramid tents in the winter as while they have some advantages, and I have one as a big summer tent, they're not my favourite tent in the winter... the extra space inside makes them cold, and using them without an inner makes them even colder, even if you do dig out the snow in the middle to drop the floor, and bury the valances.

Light a pillar candle; toasty in no time and you have room to hang up clothing to dry. The slope of the sides also means they deal better with condensation than other designs I've tried.

Not sure how well the cold sink idea meshes with the leave no trace philosophy, but I have been known to pack away everything under the flysheet in foul weather, dig (and use in comfort) a small cathole with my trowel, then quickly drop the fly and away....

Sorry, I should have specified that the cold sink is only when pitching on snow, definitely not advocating digging into the earth! And generally just for number one, yellow snow never hurt anyone...

The cold sink idea I think comes from snow holing, an engineered lowest point to take melting snow and condensation drainage down to the bottom of the cave. Avoids the worst of it soaking into your kit

If you don’t fancy getting out of the tent for a piss then it also doubles as a toilet, but obviously that is disgusting and I would never do it 🤫

Haha!

Sorry, I should have specified that the cold sink is only when pitching on snow

Now it makes sense!

And here is a Nallo GT in some Welsh snow.

That's an amazing photo! Did you wake up and it was like that? It must be quite weird, digging your way out of your tent! You're being buried alive, basically!

And here is a Nallo GT in some Welsh snow.

That’s an amazing photo! Did you wake up and it was like that? It must be quite weird, digging your way out of your tent! You’re being buried alive, basically!

I woke up and it was all very quiet and dark. Inside it was quite cozy really. The door on the tent is quite vertical so I opened it and there was a wall of snow in the way half way up. Apart from the snow load, I guess the main issue is that the more you get covered the less ventilation you have.

Back in the day I had a double A pole mountain tent with snow valances and wired elephants trunks at the top of each porch to avoid the occupants suffocating in snow... Phoenix Phortress. It was bulky, heavy and great.

Having been in a tent that collapsed under the load of snow it’s not great. That was an old school vango Mk4 I think

wired elephants trunks at the top of each porch

I have literally no idea what this means lol

That was an old school vango Mk4

Blimey! That must have been an impressive dump of snow, the Mk4 was like the cockroach of tents in its day

wired elephants trunks at the top of each porch

I have literally no idea what this means lol

Basically a tube of material, probably the same stuff as the flysheet, held open at the free end by a hoop of wire or plastic, and held along it's length in a similar manner. Bit like a snorkel for the tent, but without sticking vertically upwards

Has anyone tried a Lightwave tent? They are single skin tents, but the hype is that that are breathable so therefore don't have the condensation issues. They get good reviews for their 4 season tents, but I'm old enough to take reviews with a pinch of salt tbh

The trouble with tents in winter is that because the outside air is so cold and your body is warm, you'll always get condensation somewhere. It can either occur either inside your clothes (bad), inside your sleeping bag (not great but manageable) or mostly on the inside of the tent (best). When it condenses on the inside of the tent it will freeze and can be brushed or shaken off in the morning. This happens to both single and double skin tents, it's just visible when there's no inner to hide it. I have a Black Diamond Firstlight tent which is super breathable, basically made of pertex so not waterproof - I still get condensation frozen on the inside each morning in winter. I wouldn't buy a winter tent based in it's breathability.

Sorry about this... I'm not sure about single skin for winter in the UK. They were used at high altitude on big stuff but that's dry cold and no rain. Here, you're unlikely to get that and Gore Tex etc definitely gets condensation under the right conditions.

I'd pick something double skin and roomy to avoid having to touch the sides. You'll get condensation but it'll be on the inside of the fly which the inner should (mostly) keep you away from.

Has anyone tried a Lightwave tent?

I have an old G1 Ion - a small 2 man semi geodesic. A well made and sturdy little tent. Quite "cosy". I think the nearest current equivalent is the G20.

Has anyone tried a Lightwave tent? They are single skin tents,

Some of them are singleskin.
Most are double.
Generally well regarded.
No idea about that single skin one.

Also, I've had way, way, way more wet, windy, cold camps than frosty, and even rarer snow. I've snow holed as many times as I've had to dig a tent out of proper snow - 5 times.
And when it has been snowy, we've sought shelter of trees, walls, valley or bothy...or all together.

Has anyone tried a Lightwave tent? They are single skin tents,

Some of them are singleskin.
Most are double.

Yes mine has a separate fly.