Wim Hof breathing and cold - snake oil?

I don't do the ice baths but do carry on dipping in the local lochs and rivers throughout the year. I don't do any breathing exercises. I can't honestly say that I've discovered some long-term benefits, though there can be moments of extreme serenity while in the water and a definite rush afterwards.

[img] [/img]

Cold water gives you a rush and a bit of a buzz. You don't need Wim Hof to tell you how to do it though.

What have you got to lose? Except your balls into your chest.

Meh, mostly macho woo innit. Take an ice bath, doing some breathing exercises, meditate, fair enough, dress it up as a belief system? Nah.

There is an increasing amount of research interest in this area, sounds like there are several studies in the pipeline. An example of a paper looking specifically at Wim:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29438845/

Breathing literature is really interesting and there is a huge amount of research around that, head over to James Nestors website to start that journey of exploration 🙂

I’m a massive fan of icy showers and cold water dips, I find it exhilarating. I have converted to nasal breathing too, which has cured my (past) annoyingly frequent nasal congestion, lots of benefits for me personally. I feel it’s really helped with exercise performance too, especially on long days, although clearly that might be me just getting fitter and healthier!

MrsIHN began open water swimming, and then cold water swimming, a couple of years ago. She goes right through winter, swimming cossie only, no wetsuit, in single digit temperature water sometimes.

It has genuinely, definitely, had a positive impact on her mental health. There's also some science behind it, to do with cortisol response.

I find a few deep breaths helps when getting into very cold water...but that's as far as I've taken any breathing exercises.
Just regularly getting into cold water is what builds up the ability to cope with longer in the cold.

No idea on the snake oil aspect of it and haven't looked into the proven (or not) physiological effects of cold water exposure, but it is a buzz and does have you feeling good all day, so that's good enough for me.
I started two years ago and my wife says she definitely noticed the difference in my mood. Some of that is the water but suspect it's also, like biking, just seeing some like minded friends regularly though the pandemic.

There's research on the benefits of cold water swimming on dementia as well. I tried to find a link to actual research, but most hits are articles about the research.

For example

I've been intrigued by some of the science behind Wim and his abilities. This video gives a balanced view of his methods

I think much of it comes down to him rather than any real science and others to achieve the same.

So "Become Super Human" = build up a tolerance to cold water....

Superman had it all wrong....

Here in scandinavia having a dip in cold water is normal and they do it right through winter even when the sea freezes over. I have to say I do feel incredible afterwards.

Like Scotroutes dipping in Lochs and rivers is part of my winter things to do. I'm definitely a bit of a dip in, control breathing and sort of meditate dipper. Hadn't heard of Wim Hoff until after it was something I already did. Half my summer rides and walks seem to be focused on spotting new locations for the winter and returning to check them out in different river conditions.

Cold water swimming or dipping definitely has a buzz to it and as said research around positive effect on mental health. Also never feel as good in my joints as I do the rest of the day after a dip. This sounds like bollox typed out, but for me it's very at one with nature and elemental. A beautiful location ideally with zero man made in sight, just me or me and Mrs C, quiet and peaceful.

My self imposed rules are quiet contemplative walk in, no one else there, no photos or social media tossery/posing, and definitely no ridiculous ****ing tow floats.

Social media does seem to be responsible for promoting some needy oddball swim converts, who's MO is too look-at-me-being-craaazzy for my tastes but it's popularity is increasing and a lot of people get a lot from it, some of whom did not naturally fit into other outdoor pastimes which has to be a good thing.

I’ve been cold water swimming for a few years, and doing the wim hog style breathing in and off for a bit less time.

I came to the swimming as an extension of ‘normal’ open water swimming.

Stumbled across the breathing method and it definitely makes me feel better. The cold and breath are two very different things.

I would suggest trying the breathing excercises to see if they help. The Wim hog app is very helpful and available at no cost.

There do seem to be an increasing number of ‘devotees’ and Wim hof ‘fanatics’ but if you ignore the Insta noise and try it out you may be pleasantly surprised.

As a professional ‘scientist’ I did a lot of reading around it all as it can seem a bit daft.

I would also recommend James Nestors book ‘breath’ - a science journalists investigation into a number of different breathing techniques etc. gives a good balanced insight into different methods.

I would say that personally, I have found regular breathing exercises to be beneficial both when I was off work for several months with post viral fatigue, and more recently when I was experiencing severe anxiety.

Key for me is to ignore the ‘hype’, but try it as there’s nothing to lose by doing the breathing.

Cold is another thing though, now is not the time to start swimming in cold water, but again 30s of cold shower is worth a go.

Edit: just seen the above post about social media. Have had a few discussions with friends about the worrying and incorrect info out there - also the whole doing it for the ‘gram culture. But then that’s everything now I suppose

Everyday I have a 2 minute cold shower straight after my normal shower, turn it as cold as it will go. As mentioned above, lots of health benefits.

Great from a circulation point of view as the cold kick starts the metabolism to work harder to maintain core temperature and sends blood to the skin.

The cold water also shocks the nervous system creating endorphins and a heightened state of alertness.

Apparently good for disease fighting, lots of research showing increased white blood cells and leukocytes in those regularly exposed to cold water.

Can apparently help blood pressure too.

I'm no scientist and happy to be debunked on the above, but I do know I feel great getting out ofbthe shower after I've had a couple of minutes of cold.

Not sure about the breathing techniques, but whether it's yoga, meditation or Chinese martial arts like Pak Mi, Qi Gong or Tai Chi, the benefits of controlled, structured breathing seem to be widely understood and accepted

Col water swimming was touched on in Chris van Tulleken's programme The Doctor Who Gave Up Drugs as a possible treatment for depression.

Meh, mostly macho woo innit

Sounds like you've bothered to do some research there eh?

Even the briefest trawl through credible online info indicates some fairly well accepted health benefits. But don't let that stop you with your pithy, bro analysis..

The James Nestor book “Breath” is a good and entertaining read.
I have used some of the techniques in the book to help with post Covid high heart rate when riding specifically climbing.
My heart rate would go through the roof and I would be short of breath, less than a minute of controlled breathing would bring things back to a more normal level.
Using the breathing techniques in the book helped get me back out on the bike and enjoying riding again.
Placebo? Possibly but it helped me.

The Life Scientific - Mike Tipton on how our bodies respond to extreme conditions - BBC Sounds

This is worth listening to from someone who actually probably knows rather more than anyone else on the subject. His conclusion with current data on cold water swimming etc is there simply isn't enough evidence to say it's beneficial but if you are sensible about it it's certainly not going to do you any harm. So even if it's a placebo no reason not to benefit from it.

As above, cold water has loads of physiological effects and has lots of research into them, so it's not snake oil. I don't personally care for it, I admit. I can do cold showers and icy water but it's just somewhat uncomfortable. Heat also could have benefits, and I really do like a good Finnish 100C sauna, not the feeble ones you get in UK gyms. After that, a cold plunge (ideally in a lake in the forest) is amazing.

I can't comment on breathing though apart from it being generally a good idea from a health standpoint.

Sounds like you’ve bothered to do some research there eh?

Even the briefest trawl through credible online info indicates some fairly well accepted health benefits. But don’t let that stop you with your pithy, bro analysis..

Dunno I mean I never disputed that frequent exposure to cold gets an individual used to dealing with the cold, breathing exercises can help with lots of things in life where you might want to control breath and/or oxygenation of your blood, and a bit of meditation is also beneficial...
This appears to be mostly what he's selling, right?

And yes these are all self evidently positive things either in isolation or combined, all Wim seems to add is some vague quasi-spiritualist woo, some internet buzz and promises of superhuman abilities.

Have I extensively researched his "method"?
No I can't be arsed and I'm not looking for any sort of guru to skim my disposable income, he has the whiff of snake oil about him IMO. But I'm sure there are some excellent unbiased studies ongoing as we speak, feel free to post links that I will not follow.

Bro.

I do not have a horse in this particular race. I've enjoyed icy dips, but I don't do them religiously.

However, I work in cardiovascular research, including looking at the role of inflammation in cardiovascular disease. So I know some things.

Apparently good for disease fighting, lots of research showing increased white blood cells and leukocytes in those regularly exposed to cold water.

This is the most laughable claim in all the psuedo-science that goes along with this. Is having more white blood cells a good thing? I mean, more is more, and infections are bad, right? I've seen this claim plastered in a number of places, without any thought as to whether it's a good thing.

Here's something we do know: people with higher levels of inflammation have worse cardiovascular outcomes (a sugar-coated way of saying they die, of heart attacks and strokes). Here's some refs that specifically look at white blood cells (other markers of inflammation E.g. hsCRP are probably used more widely these days):
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12446059/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11067784/

Here's a graph:

from here: https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/154/8/758/131409
(These papers are a bit old now, but they're from some of the most famous/ cited cardiovascular researchers in the world. This is not small print. Anti-inflammatory drugs are big money in cardiovascular disease right now.)

To be clear, I am not saying that swimming in extreme cold is a bad idea. I don't know. I don't know whether anyone has done any good quality trials - but I'd be willing to bet that none exist, because there will be a tremendous amount of confounding in any study of this, not least in the fact that people who do this sort of thing are necessarily quite active. But using a very basic understanding of a single observation (raised white cell count) that's a surrogate marker of something going on inside a very complex system? A mugs' game.

Other things you said:

The cold water also shocks the nervous system creating endorphins and a heightened state of alertness.

Is that a good thing? Intuitively that sounds like a bad thing to me (stress, cortisol being bad for you in the long run) but I wouldn't want to draw any conclusions.

Great from a circulation point of view as the cold kick starts the metabolism to work harder to maintain core temperature and sends blood to the skin.

Actually, I'd expect the opposite to be true. Your skin vasculature vasoconstricts in response to cold in order to preserve core temperature. Even if it were true, would that be a good thing? A bad thing? Who knows?!

I’m not looking for any sort of guru to skim my disposable income

No need to spend any money, all the info on how to try it can be found for free.

The ice Bath is the media grabbing bit. The breathing may help op and is free to try.

Researching around it, Wim Hof is a long time yoga student (50+ yrs) and has developed what seems to be an accessible method of breathing practice. This has been promoted a lot on socials etc and become ‘cool’ in the last couple of years.

If you prefer a less woo based style of delivery, Andrew Huberman has some great podcasts that touch on a lot of this and all backed up with research (he's a neuroscientist running a research lab at Stanford). The recommended protocols don't land up being much different from Wim in some cases.

Also just to add a note of caution, if you are thinking of trying some Wim style breathing and going in cold water alone rather than a shower, read up on Shallow Water Blackout and understand the mechanism that causes it

Not sure if it does anything physiologically, but the cold water swimming makes me feel happy.
The breathing I'm less convinced with. But as recommended above the James Nestor book 'Breath' is fantastic and not woo at all. A really fascinating book on why mouth breathing is bad and a lot of other things

Well, Wikipedia says 4 people have died following his advice so maybe not entirely consequence free. But other than that I personally filed it under 'works better the more you believe in it'

My mate's wife gave him tickets to a Wim Hof talk 2 years ago. He was mesmerised. The next day he woke up and took a cold shower and was hooked. He's dabbled with a few other cold water activities but for some reason has maintained the shower thing and swears by it.

I've dabbled in the breathing and when I do it before bed i feel it defo improves sleep. I've been finishing off my normal hot shower with a cold one for a year now. I do it without fail and I feel it really perks me up. I find it enlivening and really kicks a hangover.

Having raynauds, this is one area of decompression and re-energisation that I’m happy to avoid. I admire those of you who can immerse yourself in these water temperatures.

I have courted with the idea and acknowledge that it is a process of adaptation. I am an open water swimmer, and whilst I have ventured down to 15C in a wetsuit, any lower would take extremely fine, incremental and very long term adjustments, likely (I’m guessing) much slower than those without raynauds or other circulation issues. So I’m not ruling it out, and I don’t discount the benefits to those who can withstand the training and the cold. But for me, there are other less stressful ways, such as meditation or yoga, to achieve desired results.

So I’m not ruling it out

You of course know you body better than anyone, but one of my best friends in a channel swimmer (in fact he's done the double) and he has a raynaud's. Even in the summer he comes out of the water with alarmingly white fingers and toes. Keeps going summer and winter mind and has never owned a wetsuit.

Aye, if you check out my photos you'll see that we all wear neoprene gloves and socks in cold water. That seems to do the trick for my wife who also suffers from Reynauds.

Accidentally.

I was living off-grid for a while (a few years) at around 45yrs old and the nearest available shower was an unheated farm-building and cold-water only. In Jan/February this at first made me hoot loudly and uncontrollably. Have to say on reflection that it did make me feel more regularly alive, energised, happy, fresh-minded than I had previously (in adult life). But there was a lot more to living and working outdoors than cold showers, so any positive mental gains were possibly/likely a result of more than the cold water shocks. Recommended, though. IANAD. I did read somewhere about extreme-cold making the heart work harder because of thicker blood, which is not ideal and could mean clots, strokes, etc. I’m glad now not to be camping long-term in winter. Wouldnt know about safety of regular cold showers but I personally noticed no ill-effects. YMMV

Probably consult doc, look into heart-health if planning on doing cold stuff.

I've been regularly having a cold minute or two after my normal shower a la Wim.

I reckon I might live to age 130 if I keep at it ✊

I always knew how good cold water immersion makes you feel mind, from kayaking.

Anyone watch any of the recent celeb thing with him?
Thought the celebs did pretty well actually. Quite impressed with their resolve on a few challenges. Found it quite a positive thing.

Bit disappointed in the length of the bungee cord though... 🤔

Whatever you think of the woo science behind it, Wim has done some interesting stuff including his everest stunt. The whole leading a group up Kilmanjaro in a one-er was also impressive. I don't think his ability to stay in cold water can be explained only by the fact that he practices - i also try to practice and have found myself with or close to hypothermia a number of times and had to warm myself up with a hot water bottle and sleeping bag.

Love him or hate him - he definitely seems to have figured something out that others haven't.

I enjoy the cold water stuff and am quite a devotee of Wim. I'm no scientist, but it makes me feel calm and well.

I reckon I might live to age 130 if I keep at it ✊

My wife wants to live to 130 & I'm not allowed to die before her, so she bought me a silver charm inscribed "best before 2098" 😬

My wife wants to live to 130

I'm not sure I could think of anything worse, unless you're still active past 115 years!
The cold water thing is interesting.
I've been exposed to it a bit through many years of sailing and windsurfing throughout the year, but a cold shower/bath is quite different I expect.

With the cost of heating water going through the roof this winter I suspect there will be a large number of unwilling converts!

One open-water swimmer friend has had a couple of episodes of Transient Global Amnesia connected with it.
Used to do ice baths and tbh quite fancy giving open water swimming a go, but definitely going to do it organized...

but I’d be willing to bet that none exist, because there will be a tremendous amount of confounding in any study of this, not least in the fact that people who do this sort of thing are necessarily quite active.

This is the key thing for me, the cross-over between people who are naturally interested in the effects of diet/exercise and people who might consider pursuing cold water immersion for its health and wellbeing benefits must be significant.

Actually, my experience locally is that there are a lot of folk who aren't into physical exercise and who have become very regular swimmers. In particular, it's quite amazing that so many obese ladies have embraced the open water vibe.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000qnb4/the-merthyr-mermaid

I met a guy who recently completed a phd on human responses to extreme temperatures. His work focuses on Bangladeshi (IIRC) textiles workers but also talked about military research. Interesting stuff.

I have an unheated swimming pool it tbh can’t be arsed to use it in winter. To everyone that says a cold shower feels amazing, I don’t disagree, but I suspect we’d all say the same to a warm shower too?

The James Nestor book “Breath” is a good and entertaining read.
I have used some of the techniques in the book to help with post Covid high heart rate when riding specifically climbing.

Interesting, I’ve felt like this has been happening to me too, might check the book.

 

Meh, mostly macho woo innit.

which is ironic considered most cold water swimmers round here are ladies of a particular age...

first river swim of the year for me this morning in the Dart at Sharrah. almost tropical. swam regularly until november but got out of the habit.

I assume snake oil

Depends on your definition of snake oil.

I am sure that by the end of next year he will be a millionaire from pedalling is ways so in that way not snake oil

All the positives of it have been known for years, as well as the negatives (death)

first river swim of the year for me this morning in the Dart at Sharrah. almost tropical. swam regularly until november but got out of the habit.

My first river swim this year was the Feshie, weekend just passed. There's still snow melt so it definitely wasn't tropical 😂. I stayed in a bit too long and had really bad shivers afterwards. It's fast flowing through a wee rocky section so the pool is beautifully clear. Hard work trying to swim against the current though.

first river swim of the year for me this morning in the Dart at Sharrah. almost tropical

Oh man. So jealous. Beautiful spot.

in the summer I probably run up there and swim twice a week. my commute takes me past dartmeet and newbridge. i prefer broad ledges but its harder to get to.

Our electric shower is playing up, so we may have a few days of testing the cold water theory.....

I think the ratio of women to men in my big cold water swimming group is about 9:1 in favour of women.
Definitely not macho as that's the fast way to end up hypothermic.
I think whm has a strong scent of woo, but it is based on some sound principles as seen at the huberman lab and a lot of the references in 'breath'

I have no idea on the science of it but anyone who agrees to take part in such a vacuous tv trash is hard to take seriously. I watched one episode and was in hysterics at the stupidity and fakery

I finished my (very hot) shower today with a cold blast following a chat with one of the PTs at my gym about mental health. It felt bloody good. I'm not sure I'm ready for open water swimming though; I took my drysuit to Egypt when I was on a week long trip on Feb...

I think its very, very unproven either way and I would love to see some decent scientific investigation although who knows how they could manage to come up with a control group.
I did read some interesting research into how the perception of cold didnt actually match the realities of how the body was reacting with the implication that for extremities basically the nerves had been battered into submission.
It looked to be very early stages but enough that made me decide when kayaking over the winter I will stick some icehockey tape on the paddle and wear gloves just in case it ends up being the case that it is reduction in the ability to sense damage rather than reduction in damage.

That a cold blast "wakes" you up is unquestionable. I know I have had that plenty of times running drops. It is great as an extra alarm but what it actually does beyond the immediate shock wakeup I think is still up for analysis.

I will stick some icehockey tape on the paddle and wear gloves just in case it ends up being the case that it is reduction in the ability to sense damage rather than reduction in damage.

An early lesson I learnt in ice swimming is that you need to be very careful when walking out of the water. You don't realise due to the numbness, but when you are pushing sheets of ice out of the way with your thighs and shins you are actually cutting yourself. I had some pretty bad cuts first time I did it.

[url= https://i.postimg.cc/MGdB7sYF/268456648-387788449814541-976802176521990953-n.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/MGdB7sYF/268456648-387788449814541-976802176521990953-n.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

I remember playing rugby on a frozen field and it pretty much did the same to my knee caps. Didn’t help that my opposite No.8 was 6”10 and I spent most of the game being dragged along on my numb, bleeding knees.

have converted to nasal breathing too, which has cured my (past) annoyingly frequent nasal congestion,

I don’t understand this - don’t people naturally breathe through their nose without thinking about it? I know I do, unless my nose is bunged up, in which case I use a nasal spray to clear it. I’ve heard/read the term ‘mouth-breather’ used derogatively, but I don’t find breathing through my mouth natural or, indeed comfortable.

I had some pretty bad cuts first time I did it.

Around December I forgot my gloves one days kayaking. Numbness + abrasive tape on paddle + paddle rotation on the offhand == lack of skin on the thumb and forefinger and a fair amount of pain once I warmed up enough to feel it.

In Britain, wild swimming is like sex. Sometimes it’s a bit crap, but doing it matters less than cultivating a reputation as someone who does.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/may/23/i-went-wild-swimming-in-a-chilly-river-and-havent-had-a-panic-attack-since

In Britain, wild swimming is like sex.

I’m Australia it’s frequently combined.

You have to pick the body of water you swim in, much much more carefully in aus though

wild swimming is like making love to a beautiful woman

You have to pick the body of water you swim in

make sure the current is flowing smoothly
then get in there and go up and down until you're spent

Its all kicking off apparently. by all accounts Wim hof and his son Enahm Hof have fallen out

https://www.scottcarney.com/blog/how-wim-hof-lost-his-method

Interesting podcast on cold water exposure her
https://drchatterjee.com/the-new-science-of-cold-exposure-reduce-stress-boost-immunity-increase-resilience-with-dr-susanna-soberg/
Might be of interest to people

Yeah, I was listening to another Susanna Søberg podcast last week. She has done a lot of research into the effects of both cold and heat on the production and retention of brown fat cells. Most of it is based on the use of saunas and cold water dips though, so not all applicable to the majority in the UK.

Having raynauds, this is one area of decompression and re-energisation that I’m happy to avoid. I admire those of you who can immerse yourself in these water temperatures

My girlfriend used to suffer from Raynaud's  -  she used to have to wear ski mits cycling through much of the summer because of the effects long road descents had on her hands. Coincidentally or otherwise it seems to have just gone away since she started sea swimming year round

https://hubermanlab.com/the-science-and-use-of-cold-exposure-for-health-and-performance/

https://hubermanlab.com/using-deliberate-cold-exposure-for-health-and-performance/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq6WHJzOkno

Co incidentally I saw a couple of articles on this

be careful folks

https://outdoorswimmer.com/featured/what-is-sipe-and-what-are-the-risks/

There was a piece on R4 yesterday about that. I cold water swim and thought I knew about most risks, but that one was news to me.

I knew about SIPE from previous podcasts etc. Norma from Immerse Hebrides has covered it in some detail. Wearing a tight wetsuit seems to be a contributory factor, as does high blood pressure. In our wee group, we never swim alone.

I should also add that many folk laugh at the idea of taking a float but (despite disclaimers to the contrary) using one could actually be a lifesaver in some cases.

I have no desire to go near cold water other than accidentally so have no particular skin in the game.

Did find this an interesting read the other day though on the subject.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/05/ice-baths-in-january-why-science-suggests-we-ditch-all-the-self-flagellation?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

I think some people are just built different...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gu%C3%B0laugur_Fri%C3%B0%C3%BE%C3%B3rsson

During the sinking of their boat, off the coast of Heimaey in Vestmannaeyjar, Guðlaugur and two out of four other companions climbed on to the keel. After about 45 minutes, they swam towards the shore, yet the other two disappeared within 10 minutes. The only survivor of the crew of five, Guðlaugur swam for five to six hours in 5–6 °C (41–43 °F) water the 6 km (3.7 mi) to the island, wearing a shirt, sweater and jeans,[1] guided by a lighthouse.[4] He remained clear-headed throughout.[1]

Reaching the shore of Heimaey, Guðlaugur found himself at the most dangerous section of the island's coastline, due mainly to the waves hitting the coastal lava rock formations. After searching for and finding a suitable, flatter part of the shoreline, he finally got to land but had to walk with bare feet, traversing 3 km (1.9 mi) of volcanic scree.[4] When he knocked on a door at 7 a.m., nine hours after the boat had sunk, he was taken to the hospital. Guðlaugur's body temperature was below 34 °C (93 °F) yet he showed almost no symptoms of hypothermia or vasodilatation, only of dehydration.[2][3]

There's a good film about that guy and the subsequent testing they tried to get him to do.
The Deep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Deep_(2012_film)

I think some people are just built different…

Very much so.  On a smaller scale but I am heat tolerant.  I did get dehydrated a couple of times this summer but I rode right thru the heatwave without major issues. weeks on end of 30+ temps - pushing 40 some days.    However I do not cope with cooler temps at all well and there is no way I could swim in cold water.  Even in the med I have become borderline hypothermic after a few minutes.