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I'll stick a £1 in the tin I may wear a poppy on the 11th only, but am reluctant to do so because of it's hijacking by the neo Nazis of the EDL BF and UKIP . I will observe the silence and usually think of my grandfather WW1 and 2 my mum and dad shaped by the blitz and my brother shaped by the loss of his mates in either military neglect or terrorism (2 versions no clear answer.)
Despite being a tree hugging quasi pacifist liberal Remembrance Day is ingrained in me and rightly so, it and more importantly those who have served, should not be forgotten.
I dont recognise this assocation with right wing groups, thats not to say it isnt so just that I dont see it.
I do find the slavish approach by TV faces to wearing the poppy a bit weird and those blokes( its always blokes) in 4X4’s with poppys on the grill a bit silly.
Given our aweness now sadly of the pointlessness of many wars it does seem like the poppy needs a new narrative.
I do however think we can and should commerate the people who have given their lives for our security.
A Facebook post by a veteran friend has confirmed that I've made the right decision not to ever wear a white poppy.
Why not? Educate me? Posts by veterans confirm by distaste for the red poppy. Echo chamber?
The post, beneath a picture of a white poppy:
Why not stand out from the crowd and virtue signal your way into a debate with a veteran. You can bring up historically and inaccurate misleading facts like the red poppy only honours the British fallen etc. Please carry on, but I personally think you’re a **** for what it is worth
The stars are obscuring a four letter word that rhymes with cat, in block capitals.
I'd like to wear a white poppy, but suspect I'd meet this reaction.
I don't understand that.
Edit
Your edit gave me the understanding!
Isn't proclaiming yourself to be "A veteran" virtue signalling?
TBH it's a good policy to ignore anything with the words "virtue signalling" in
And the British Legion specifically says that the poppy is only for remembrance connected to the british armed forces, and those who fought with them. The white poppy appeal is totally clear about that too but some people like to misrepresent it for reasons.
All the talk on this thread of Americans being more forward looking etc..not looking to the past...and I just heard on R4 that there is going to be a new WWI memorial erected somewhere in America....I didn't catch where.
For what its worth I think remeberence is very important - too important to be hijacked by the jingoists and actually understanding what war means would have prevent the loss of millions of lives in Iraq and Libya.
Blair was a huge hypocrite over this. His laying wreaths at the cenotaph was really pretty offensive
too important to be hijacked by the jingoists
I don't recognise this, but I suppose it's all subjective and we likely live in very different parts of the country. If it's just due to the presence of a few union flags and some regiment association colours and old men wearing berets and medals I find it a bit sad that some see it for something it isn't. Chest thumping it's not
Growing up I attended many a parade, first as a member of the Scounts, then the Air Training Corps and finally the TA. The one thing I remember from all the parades was the key point that we were there whilst many others were not. Nothing nationalistic about how 'we' beat 'them' or anything like that. I've taken my kids to local parades and it's still the same, quite sombre and sad.
I agree with TJ's sentiments on Blair laying a wreath.
BigEaredBiker
I think its more about what annoys one most and thus what you see. For me the whole cenotaph ceremony is one big jingoistic exercise in chest thumping
cenotaph ceremony
I must admit, I never watch any of that. My views are formed from local events - small, quiet and brief affairs so it makes sense we view it differently.
I was just wondering if the different gradations of opinion about a national event, rather depend on how "connected" you feel to the society you're living in?
For instance, a friend of mine is a complete recluse and doesn't generally think much of humans as a species anyway. He won't be paying the slightest bit of attention to the event, I should think.
On the other hand, in my former working life I've known those who bought the whole shebang hook line and sinker, including hatred of foreigners - one of these enthusiasts was ironically, of asian descent hailing from Bangladesh...
Question: does "remembrance" have the same meaning now we have "professional" soldiers?
We've always had professional soldiers.
Why do people insist on making this about themselves?
I'd have thought this might be one day in the year when you can give your own ego and self importance a rest, even just for a few minutes.
Why do people insist on making this about themselves?
and yet rather than quietly reflecting on the fallen you post on a public forum about it, thus making it about you....
Oh the ironing...
You'll know I'm not a huge fan of the Poppy Wearing (I've posted that on here already) but one aspect of these ceremonies that I really do support and thats the gathering of like minded people. People who have shared interests and common bonds. It's got to be celebrated that whilst we always seem to feel "isolated" these days, gatherings like this do bring people together.
For a short period of time during Remembrance Day feelings of isolation and hatred will be forgotten, a connection with other humans will occur and a day to Remember will be more about connection than loss...
At least thats how i would see it.
We've got some roads closed down my way, you should see a few moans about that on FB... Jeeze, it's only like for 3 hours or so.. although there is a Co-Op Express along the village road and the moans are probably more about not being able to get some milk or bread or bacon..
footflaps - Member
Why do people insist on making this about themselves?
and yet rather than quietly reflecting on the fallen you post on a public forum about it, thus making it about you....
Well, as much as commenting on anything makes it about me.
) but one aspect of these ceremonies that I really do support and thats the gathering of like minded people. People who have shared interests and common bonds. It's got to be celebrated that whilst we always seem to feel "isolated" these days, gatherings like this do bring people together.
For a short period of time during Remembrance Day feelings of isolation and hatred will be forgotten, a connection with other humans will occur and a day to Remember will be more about connection than loss...
At least thats how i would see it.
If only people could do this sort of thing every week.
Sunday mornings are good for me.
footflaps - Memberand yet rather than quietly reflecting on the fallen you post on a public forum about it, thus making it about you....
Eh? The guy just made a comment.
You might agree with it, or not. But, none of what was said seemed to be 'about him'.....
Ok - can we agree remembrance is important, different people value it in different ways and many have reservations about the way some people try to hijack it?
I'd like to discuss a little who we actually remember and why. This is not virtue signalling - this is an honest account of what it means to me personally and why. I am interested in the who and why for others ( a couple of folk have posted this already) and there may well be things for me to learn from that
I have no family who fought bar a great uncle I never knew and know little about.
for me I remember the WW2 veterans I have looked after who were dealing with surfacing PTSD in their last years. The 50th anniversary of VE Day I was working on an all male ward and quite a lot of the patients were veterans of the conflict. I remember tears streaming down their faces at the memories of loss of comrades. I can still see some of those faces clearly. The man in his 80s who hid under his blankets at every loud noise. I remember them.
I remember the man I looked after who had been in Buchenwald. The scars on his body from medical experimentation and the number on his arm.
I remember being with a disparate group of young ex military and non military after the announcement of the first gulf war and the way we all came together in a silent group hug as we ( in our own ways) thought of those who were going to lose their lives in this conflict and how we ere able to put aside the differences in where we were coming from to mutually support each other inour sorrow for those about to be killed.
I remember looking at the bomb cratered fields of Flanders and the horrors of the Auschwitz museum.
For me is that this is one time we should put aside our differences ( the lesson of the group hug), remember those who were damaged and killed and still continue to be in conflicts worldwide and remember there is no glory in war.
Hatred of the warmongers can wait for another day. Distaste for the jingoistic can be set aside. ON the 11th at 11 am I will sit and remember these things.
Lest we forget
That pretty much sums it up.
Interesting TJ's comments about remembering on the 11th being right and the Sunday being for convenience... how many companies, like mine, have a "silence" ordered for today? Why today? Just so they can be seen to be doing something?
Just so they can be seen to be doing something?
Collective hysteria around being seen to do the right thing and the possible wrath that can ensue if you're perceived to not be showing enough respect. #PoppyFascismWeek
Very moving work memorial - 1195 staff lost their lives
Stood next to German colleague and we talked about his great grandfather who died on the second day of WW1 but for whom there is no service at home. I am glad to have been with his great grandson today at 11:00
“When you go home, tell them of us and say,
For your tomorrow, we gave our today.”
The man talks fluent bollocks. Don't like it? Don't take part but don't tell everyone else what they should or shouldn't do. Thankfully remembrance will remain long after this idiot is in the ground.
THM, the German people have Volkstrauertag, which is after Armistice day to coincide with the religious calendar. I had attended a few of these when stationed in Germany during the late eighties, early nineties.
Pretty much the same somber event as ours.
We're not marking 11am today, because it's not the 11th. When it does fall on a weekday we always have the silence and my students always observe it.
Unfortunately, the start and end of the 2 mins are signaled by ringing the fire alarm, which trips off the sockets in my lab and causes an alarm to ring in the corner of the room. I start the 2 mins turning a key to stop the alarm.
We've always had professional soldiers.
Badly phrased question, sorry. I'll re-phrase when I've got more time later.
Question: does "remembrance" have the same meaning now we have "professional" soldiers?
Yes, I'd argue even more so.
Professional soldiers don't join the army expecting to be killed or wounded - they just know it's a risk. The attitude is typically that it won't be you, it will only happen to someone else. Many recruits are under 20 when they sign up and a large part of our army is now the Army Reserve; with all the best-will in the world they are not profesional soldiers. Even the training that many members of the armed forces do is dangerous, as are many non war-fighting deployments.
You should note that some local rememberance services also make a point to remember those that died protecting communities not as military personel but Fire-Fighters etc. e.g. https://www.ddfire.gov.uk/news/durham-remembrance-parade-2017
There are a few strands to this thread to bear in mind;
Poppies are sold by the RBL, a charity which works to help former service members and their familes. The work it does is still relevant today. Buying a poppy will help them do that.
White Poppies are sold as a symbol of peace by the PPU, to remind people that there are many more victims of war other than the military. I'm not sure what the PPU does with your money if you buy one, but it won't help any former members of Britains Armed Forces.
Finally it's a time of rememberence, we don't live in a facist state, choose to remember it how you will, or not. You are free to do so; ignore anyone critical of your choice.
Where does the money go?White poppies are more about the message of peace and remembrance than about raising funds. We distribute white poppies to promote remembrance for all victims of war and to challenge the view that war and preparations for war are necessary or inevitable.
At a local level, peace groups, shops and other outlets that sell white poppies may choose to donate money raised to a charity or campaign supporting victims of war. This is not controlled centrally and a number of charities benefit.
At a national level, money raised over and above the cost of producing, publicising and distributing the poppies goes to fund our education and campaigning work, thus promoting nonviolent approaches to conflict and challenging militarism. Such work regrettably does not attract much funding and so we rely heavily on the generosity of people like you.
Some argue that if you buy a white poppy you are taking away money that would go to support wounded veterans if you bought a red poppy instead. This is not accurate. There is nothing to stop someone wearing a white poppy while also donating to a charity to help those wounded in war. We want to see decent support for people affected by war. We believe, however, that such people should be able to turn to a well-funded welfare state rather than having to rely on charity. The UK government has been slashing the welfare state in recent years while maintaining one of the highest military budgets in the world.
Not a fan of poppies but this made me smile.
'Pilots of the Caribbean'
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I'm a soldier. Will I be remembering? Yes I will. Who? Those who died in service of our country. My grandparents who fought in WW2. My great-grandfather who as a conscientious objector was a stretcher bearer in the RAMC. As an RAMC officer myself that is especially pertinent.
Most acutely and hardest of all, my friends Jim Phillippson, Alex Eida and Ralph Johnson who died on my first , and their last, tour in Afghanistan. Rest in peace guys.
Then and now, past and present, we will remember them all.
Just having a little browse around the war poets this one struck a chord. could be describing those old men I looked after
He sat in a wheeled chair, waiting for dark,
And shivered in his ghastly suit of grey,
Legless, sewn short at elbow. Through the park
Voices of boys rang saddening like a hymn,
Voices of play and pleasure after day,
Till gathering sleep had mothered them from him.
About this time Town used to swing so gay
When glow-lamps budded in the light blue trees,
And girls glanced lovelier as the air grew dim,-
In the old times, before he threw away his knees.
Now he will never feel again how slim
Girls' waists are, or how warm their subtle hands.
All of them touch him like some queer disease.
There was an artist silly for his face,
For it was younger than his youth, last year.
Now, he is old; his back will never brace;
He's lost his colour very far from here,
Poured it down shell-holes till the veins ran dry,
And half his lifetime lapsed in the hot race
And leap of purple spurted from his thigh.
One time he liked a blood-smear down his leg,
After the matches, carried shoulder-high.
It was after football, when he'd drunk a peg,
He thought he'd better join. - He wonders why.
Someone had said he'd look a god in kilts,
That's why; and maybe, too, to please his Meg,
Aye, that was it, to please the giddy jilts
He asked to join. He didn't have to beg;
Smiling they wrote his lie: aged nineteen years.
Germans he scarcely thought of; all their guilt,
And Austria's, did not move him. And no fears
Of Fear came yet. He thought of jewelled hilts
For daggers in plaid socks; of smart salutes;
And care of arms; and leave; and pay arrears;
Esprit de corps; and hints for young recruits.
And soon, he was drafted out with drums and cheers.
Some cheered him home, but not as crowds cheer Goal.
Only a solemn man who brought him fruits
Thanked him; and then enquired about his soul.
Now, he will spend a few sick years in institutes,
And do what things the rules consider wise,
And take whatever pity they may dole.
Tonight he noticed how the women's eyes
Passed from him to the strong men that were whole.
How cold and late it is! Why don't they come
And put him into bed? Why don't they come?
Woppit - as the OP, what will you be doing?
Yep, I'll be out Sunday and wear my poppy as a sign of remembrance.
What a thought provoking thread..
I’m an ex serviceman - admittedly I only did a few years but I served and I stood ‘on the line’
I always remember them,
But I’ve started to squintt at the recent social media glare of changing ones profile pic to show the world you served, and the parading to show off your shiny medals.
I will go to my little downland church and say a few words on my own, I’ll also raise a pint and say a quiet thank you to those I knew and those I didn’t
Just my way..
frankconway - Member
Woppit - as the OP, what will you be doing?
Watching the Cenotaph on the telly, same as usual I guess, although there's no poppy-wearing available in my neck of the woods.
I will.
When I was taught about remembrance sunday at school,"lest we forget" was emphasised as a warning.
Thank you Mr Kerr(junior school headmaster).
I feel a bit conflicted about the whole thing. I don't like the way it's heading, going down the same road that led to competitive grieving and all that. While I accept that sometimes war is necessary, I have no respect for politicians or other leaders that send people to war unnecessarily - although I'm not a good enough historian to say what's the former and what's the latter. But I respect the courage of people who are prepared to go and do the dirty work knowing what could happen to them, even if I question the motives and morals of those that send them. I will remember my grandfather, a man who I suspect was wholly unsuited to going to war and killing people (I don't know if he ever did so himself), but who was willing to go and do his duty, who stood next to his childhood best friend and saw his head get blown off, and who could barely speak about the war. War is not something to celebrate, but courage, bravery and sacrifice are. The guy in that video above points out that the initial point of rememberance was to remember 'Never Again'. It's a shame so many people in power have apparently forgotten that.
Like others here, I too am a soldier and I will attend a service tomorrow. Personally, I will reflect on my grandfathers and their brothers who fought in the First and Second world wars. I will remember my father who, as an 18 year old National Serviceman, found himself fighting in Egypt for reasons unknown to him and who, to this day, will not talk about what he saw. I will also remember my friends and their friends who have died or been terribly injured in conflict. I will remember the soldiers of the regiments in which I have served who have died or been injured.
As above, war is not something to celebrate, but courage, bravery and sacrifice are, and I see it in spades in the ordinary young men and women with whom I proudly serve. For what it is worth, I see these qualities in equal measure in the emergency services and it is right that their efforts and sacrifices should be remembered too.
The poppy I wear tomorrow will be red in support of the RBL, not as any political statement, but in support of a charity which does wonderful work for veterans and their families. Whilst I respect the decision of those who choose not to wear a poppy or take part in remembrance due to the perceived commercialisation or politicisation, I hope that their decision does not prevent them from acknowledging the sacrifice of others.
Certa Cito.
This is my 22nd Remembrance Sunday in uniform. I have met veterans of wars before my time, listened to their stories and felt their tears. I’ve walked through the CWGC cemeteries and read the names of those who fell, noted the youth and number we lost in godforsaken trenches.
In my time I have carried one friend on my shoulder, been part of a flypast for another and stood among friends for a thirds repatriation.
I have attended numerous ramp ceremonies and vigils for various nations whilst deployed, every single one had an impact, listening to their friends and colleagues talk fondly of their lost brother or sister.
I’ve even climbed a mountain looking for the final resting place of a WW2 Bomber crew.
For me, this day is for all of them and no amount of debate or pseudo-political interference will change that.