[Closed] Will you be "remembering", this weekend?

He lost me with this little gem:

Such memorialism continues to distort Britain’s defence budget. It devotes astronomical sums to remembered threats and archaic strategies, such as submarine warfare, convoy protection, aerial dogfighters and manned bombers.

Absolute drivel.

Almost all the conflicts in the world are caused by too much remembering

Wha?

Ay, forget about it!!

Said in a new York accent....

I think he's bang on.

Agree that there’s a disturbing “remembrance porn” and “griefier than thou” aspect to it these days. But that’s social media’s fault, not Remembrance Sunday’s. Rest of the article is just him making shit up!

I don't agree with everything in that article but he has a point. It's time we all moved on.

I agree with him.

He makes valid points.

But Britain has a backward looking mentality, so you can’t really expect his views to be welcomed with open minds.

When [i]do[/i] we move on? After the last Tommy dies? After the next war? Or does this grief addicted society we live in now never move on?.

Well said. I agree with most of what he wrote. Time to move on, which IMO is a better way to honour the fallen

Do we move on to remembering just the 21C then?

Will be attending a military organised Rememberence. Partly due to recent conflicts and partly due to their location, these tend to be pretty solemn affairs with no chest thumping

Thanks for sharing that.

I think he develops his point a little too far but it's largely spot on.

We should not be remembering, but forgetting. Almost all the conflicts in the world are caused by too much remembering: refreshing religious divisions, tribal feuds, border conflicts, humiliations and expulsions. Why else but for memory does Sunni fight Shia or Hindu fight Muslim? India and ****stan seem unable to get over memories of Partition. What ancient grievances motivated Myanmar’s viciousness against the Rohingya?

I was going to write a piece about Remembrance Day losing a lot of its meaning but to be honest I can't be arsed with the flaming.

Suffice to say, war is horrible. Lots of innocent people lose their lives in the most hideous way possible. Families are destroyed and countries devastated. We should be learning that war is not an option however when you've got a balloon-headed orange freak in the Whitehouse threatening another balloon-headed freak with annihilation then this demonstrates that as a people we have learned nothing.

Yes.
Having served for 12 years, and lost friends in ways you hope you never would, I will be remembering them.

And all of them that got beaten by the clock.

Remembrance Sunday isn’t some kind of partisan, nationalistic fervour though. He’s comparing something that commemorates the horrors of war and provokes a moment’s reflection on it, with half-remembered ancient grievances which are used to whip up popular feeling towards the opposite objective.

It’s not just for the wars though. It’s for the current service people too.

I can understand why Brits have a problem with rmemberance:

Invassion of Iraq on a false pretext

Stupid escalation in the Falklans

A series of embarrassing skirmishes in former colonies

Not that I'm saying other countries do better. So I'll be there on Saturday as the veterans of Algeria, Afghanistan, a long list of African conflicts, the Balkans, various blue helmet missions file past, along with the gendarmes, pompiers...

Learn from your mistakes, better still learn form the mistakes of others. The day you forget past mistakes you increase the risk of making them again.

That's a really interesting piece and I find it hard to disagree with the core argument.

It's not just the poppy fascism that's become a problem with remembrance in recent years, it's the way it reinforces an uncritical and self-satisfied image of Britain as morally right. Heroic even.

Things are a bit more nuanced in the 21st century.

It’s not just for the wars though. It’s for the current service people too

No it's not. Remembrance Sunday is the Sunday closest to the 11th of November for a reason. The memorial at the end of the village originally only had the names of the lads who died in the Great War engraved on it, the names of those who fell in WW2 were added later. No other wars are mentioned. Active servicemen and women aren't either. Surely that's Simon Jenkins' point?

Watty, there is the national memorial, Cannock. No doubt a Rememberence service will be there Sunday.

I agree with pretty much everything he says. My wife's American, and while their attitude to defence and 'the troops' is pretty grim, she finds our obsession with the world wars baffling. America has moved on (to 2001 at least) and put those wars behind them. The glorification of war like this, and the beration of those who don't think war is a good thing and feel it isn't something we should glorify is mawkish and a bit revolting.

I'll not be remembering but looking forward to a future without war.

No other wars are mentioned. Active servicemen and women aren't either.

Our village service last year was well attended by active service personnel from the local regiment. An officer spoke movingly at the church and the personnel marched in the parade with the Beavers, Scouts, Guides etc

Although there was obviously a WWI aspect to the service, reading old letters from the front, there was also plenty of mention of current conflicts and reflections on our roles and responsibilities in the refugee crisis.

It all seemed very healthy to me.

I think there is a general movement to remember those that served in all wars, past and present, on any side.

Perhaps it is slowly evolving more towards a US style Veterans Day?

The glorification of war like this, and the beration of those who don't think war is a good thing and feel it isn't something we should glorify is mawkish and a bit revolting.

Glorification? Rememberance days are usually sad, somber affairs. A chance to reflect on the evils that humans can do.

[i]If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.[/i]

I don't see it as a remembrance or glorification of the war(s) ..but of the servicemen & women who gave their lives in the hope that ours would be better ..
I think that's worth remembering

Exactly, hodgynd and GrahamS. It's just that the media in general don't see it that way, including the Guardian journalist who instead of writing on the benefits of remembering suggests we forget - and then we're off again.

Well I'll be remembering, but It's not like you have to if you don't want to is it?
It's not like It's an EU directive is it?

I’ve lost friends
I’ve lost comrades
I’ve carried what’s left of them back so there’s something for families to bury
I’ve also carried parts of what’s left of enemies back so there’s something for their families to bury
We lost 9 of a 12man fire team in one sortie
It’s remebering ALL who have and who will serve - it is most certainly not glorifying war.
“When you’ve stood in my shoes.....” springs to mind with people like that

I can't stand the poppy fascism and poppy pron (sparkly poppies on Strictly anyone?) and the assumption that anyone on TV in November without wearing a poppy is some sort of traitor. I'm a lefty liberal remoaner vegetarian pacifist.

But, like every year, I'll be at the memorial outside out local church at 11am on Sunday. You don't have to agree with war to respect and remember those who gave their lives.

No other wars are mentioned. Active servicemen and women aren't either.

Definitely not correct of several memorials or any memorial service I’ve been to. The far lower casualties in later conflicts are probably the reason there’s none of their names on there; statistically, there’s a far lower chance of people from your parish having died in those.

I’d suggest seeing tones of imperial superiority/glorification of war/British exceptionalism in the service of remembrance say more about the beholder than the content.

Mike, hammy and Edukator, good posts 🙂

she finds our obsession with the world wars baffling. America has moved on

I don't think that is true at all.

Both World Wars are still regularly portrayed in American-made film, TV and video games for example, and usually with far more glorification than a church service and readings of war poets.

One of the biggest films of 2017, Wonder Woman, was set in World War I and was far from sombre.

If you don't remember the horrors then that glorification is all you are left with.

I can't stand the poppy fascism and poppy pron (sparkly poppies on Strictly anyone?) and the assumption that anyone on TV in November without wearing a poppy is some sort of traitor.

This. I noticed on Strictly (guilty pleasure) that they had poppies on their gym kit during the footage of them in training, ridiculous!

It should be remembered, if not for the people who gave their lives or sanity to give us the life we all have, thinking we're now too important or somehow above learning lessons from our past is unbelievably narrow minded.

IMO, those that remember the horror of war would do everything in their power to prevent it happening again. Those that don't would risk it for financial/political/personal gain...

This. I noticed on Strictly (guilty pleasure) that they had poppies on their gym kit during the footage of them in training, ridiculous!

What is ridiculous is that if they didn't the Daily Mail / Express would be demanding they all be fired.

#PoppyFascismWeek

But once again, that’s a function of social media acting as a nutter lantern, rather than the actual service of remembrance.

Yes; always have, always will.

I've always had mixed feelings about remembrance.

Part of it...
[img] [/img]

But once again, that’s a function of social media acting as a nutter lantern, rather than the actual service of remembrance.

My main issue with the service of remembrance is the religious side; it's a shame that there aren't accessible secular alternatives. I could do without the singing of the national anthem too.

Will I be remembering? Yes. I have known people who have done their duty and not come back, my remembrance will be for them.

Will I wear a poppy? No. It's been hijacked by the war glorifiers and celebrities (like the sparkly Strictly ones mentioned earlier) as a way of making it compulsory and also missing the point of the whole thing.

The whole point of 'Lest We Forget' is not to forget the dead but to never forget the futility of war and the suffering it invariably causes. There's a reason the Great War (I hate the tag WW1) was meant to be the war to end all wars. We need to remember that even more now with certain countries gearing up for what could be WW3.

Dez, mike and milky. Spot on.

My main issue with the service of remembrance is the religious side

I'm a devout atheist, but I attend. Our local service is multi-denominational and isn't too heavy on the religion side. I just respectfully treat the God bits as moral philosophy. (I don't sing either, but that's more to do with not knowing the words, being tone deaf and chronically flat 🙂 )

Nobeerinthefridge - Member

When do we move on? After the last Tommy dies?

The thing is, as much as people misunderstand it (sometimes willfully) Remembrance Sunday isn't about any particular war. Naturally the world wars dominate the imagination but we're a long, long way from having no war dead to remember, and not getting any closer.

I will as ever be mostly remembering my grandads (especially for the brilliant drunken chats, when RAF Grandad would be reminiscing about the lovely time he had in Ceylon and India, while Merchant Navy Grandad would be reminiscing about the arctic convoys and getting sunk twice and losing 6 brothers in 2 years) and thinking about mates who left bits of themselves in Iraq and Afghanistan. Remembrance isn't just about looking back, if you forget the past you're doomed to repeat it.

Pretty easy for those that do misunderstand it Northy, when all around are images of Lancaster, spitfire and the fields of France and Belgium.

We don't forget the past, but we will also keep making the same mistakes, sadly.

Anyway, I don't have strong views either way tbh, so I'll go back to the bike forum, and leave the usual suspects to this...

I mentioned in another thread about Poppy Month, that I despise war and suffering. Can’t think of anyone I connect with who doesn’t think similar thoughts.

Quite what the Whailing Daily or the ”Ex”prose have to do with anything a Journalist from the Guardian has to say, again is beyond me. Both of those “pappers” are rigidly stuck in the past and are proven racial and social hatred promoters. Perpetual hatred breads hatred.

I’d disagree with the point made about the US still continuing to support the view that Americans in general look backwards and support and celebrate Wars, quite how this comment came about says more about the posters ignorance than any cultural reference made about American culture.
Whilst you do see remembrance gatherings, these are more directed towards the futility and degradation of human suffering than any glorified portrayal. Lest not forget the Vietnam fiasco, that particular war is not celebrated in any shape nor form. It’s seen more as a stupid reticent ignorance for humans and wildlife respect.
And it’s still ingrained in the US culture for those reasons.

We don't forget the past, but we will also keep making the same mistakes, sadly.

Does make a complete mockery of the whole thing. Politicians pin on a poppy and look sombre for one day a year and then start another war as soon as they can get away with it / need a ratings boost....

Yes.
Don't care what others do.

Yes I'll be remembering this Sunday. I will donate, I wont wear a poppy or attend a service as I think these events have become part of a hagiography rather than remembrance.

I wont wear a poppy or attend a service as I think these events have become part of a hagiography rather than remembrance

I would like to wear a white poppy, but I don't feel like I can.

I've no problem with remembering, but I do wish there was a greater and wider understanding and honest public discussion of this countries recent and historical past. Too often it falls into simple and repeated memes that are best glossing over reality, or at worst still the barely disguised propaganda that while at the time clearly served a useful purpose, need to be revisted now time allows.

footflaps - Member

Does make a complete mockery of the whole thing. Politicians pin on a poppy and look sombre for one day a year and then start another war as soon as they can get away with it / need a ratings boost...

Totally agree, but I don't think it has to devalue the real thing. Production line mourning and remembrance always honks me off but if it's meaningless then it can be meaningless for everything, good and bad.

When it's a work day I do go off by myself though, I got the distinct impression half my colleagues are observing the silence but actually thinking about their shopping list, or boobs.

would like to wear a white poppy, but I don't feel like I can.

I would too but I am not sure where the money goes if you buy a white poppy, hence my convoluted logic above.

Does it really matter where £1 goes?

If people really cared about ex-servicemen etc they would realise they could donate at any time of year. The whole 1 day / week a year 'devout ex-serviceman supporter and anyone not wearing a poppy is a traitor' thing is just collective hysteria IMO.

You don't have to agree with war to respect and remember those who gave their lives.

Will never forget a Mum telling me that her young lad wouldn't be with the other beaver scouts on remembrance day as his dad had been killed in afghanistan and he'd be laying his own wreath

[i]..anyone not wearing a poppy is a traitor' thing is just[/i]... made up innit? Never worn a poppy in my life and nobody has ever noticed!

..anyone not wearing a poppy is a traitor' thing is just... made up innit? Never worn a poppy in my life and nobody has ever noticed!

It's more for people in the public eye, rather than Everyday Joes.

..anyone not wearing a poppy is a traitor' thing is just... made up innit?

Yes and no. If anyone on TV / in politics forgets etc it would be front page news in the tabloids for days.

I never wear a poppy and no one has mentioned anything (yet).

Sadly true.

Was it last year that there was a big outcry in certain papers about Corbyn not bowing his head quite low enough at the Cenotaph?

[img] ?1[/img]

(Corbyn's mother was an Air Raid Warden and his father was a member of the Home Guard)

Those who think we should forget should remember how it is they’ve come to be in a position to be able to choose to remember or not. The arrogance and conceit is shocking and disappointing. The day we forget is the day we descend into another world war. The least we can do is to remember and be thankful - it’s only for 1 minute every year, a shorter time than it’s taken for some to write their drivel on this forum.

The way we progress as a society is to remember the mistakes of the past and learn from them. It’s not a difficult concept to grasp.

Buy a poppy or don’t. It’s a worthwhile charity at the end of the day if nothing else.

The way we progress as a society is to remember the mistakes of the past and learn from them. It’s not a difficult concept to grasp.

But we don't. We keep going to war. We keep slaughtering innocents either in the name of what ever spurious deity "sanctioned" it or because someone else has something we want. We've got Trump posturing for war with North Korea and Kim reciprocating. The British recent record on war isn't too shiny either. The whole [i]those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it[/i] is little more than a soundbite now. DezB's post above illustrates one of my major problems with Remembrance Day is the warmongers laying wreaths. That and worthless royals dressing up in military costumes with unearned medals.

Having said that, will I "remember"? Yes I will. War is sickening for all concerned with the exception of those who profit from it.

#edit: Just remembered this I saw last year.

[img] [/img]

I’d disagree with the point made about the US still continuing to support the view that Americans in general look backwards and support and celebrate Wars, quite how this comment came about says more about the posters ignorance than any cultural reference made about American culture.

The poster's ignorance is an informed opinion from his American wife who arrived in the UK and found our obsession with WW2 in particular baffling.

Does what other people do on thos occaison really matter?

It's not about us and how others perceive our actions.
Just remember, that's the important thing.

And to anyone on here who has served, thank you.

Remembrance Day is the warmongers laying wreaths. That and worthless royals dressing up in military costumes with unearned medals.

Selective quoting. I didn't say all people laying wreaths are warmongers.

Selective quoting. I didn't say all people laying wreaths are warmongers.

However, I bet all warmongerers lay wreaths 😉

#edit: Just remembered this I saw last year.

Yep - pretty much sums up the hypocrisy very well.

Coyote, thanks for posting the cartoon - for me, that sums it up perfectly. I have a different perspective than what seems like most of the locals around where I live. I’m in my mid 50’s and am the youngest of the family, so my parents and most of my grandparents were old enough to have lived and served in WW1 and WW2. One of my grandfathers wa a regular infantryman at the outbreak of WW1 and was one of the ‘old contemptibles’. He was involved in a lot of the battles on the Western Front and Gallipoli; he’d been wounded and gassed more than once, contracted TB from living for weeks on end in mud, rats etc., but somehow survived the whole thing (although he was never fit enough to work again afterwards). Now, here’s what some people might find odd - he couldn’t stand the whole poppy thing, and wouldn’t have one in the house apparently. He said people cared more about the dead than the living, and said the poppy thing was just Earl Haigs blood money.

I think wife’s grandfather (who fought with the 8th army in El Alamein and Normandy) had got a fairly sceptical view of the remeberance stuff too. Apparently, he thought that the country should be looking forward, not back all the time. My favourite story with him was when my wife said she once asked him why Churchill got kicked out after WW2 - he said something like ‘I spent four years fighting fascists - I wasn’t gonna come back home and vote for one of the buggers’.

Interestingly, I think the tories have reintroduced the old rule whereby invalided ex-servicemen only get pension/benefits for children that they fathered before they were discharged from the army. Maybe if the d**kheads that own the Daily Mail, Express, Telegraph and Rupert Murdochs media empire actually paid realistic rates of UK tax, we might be able to afford decent social care for people like ex-servicemen & women.

Yes I will. I will observe silence, I will think of the dead. All dead of all wars. from the Tommy in the trenches to the Iraqi conscript buried by armoured bulldozers. From the French maquis to the Argentinian sailor. From the men off the arctic convoys to the german solders of Stalingrad

I will not wear a red poppy given the way it has been hijacked by the jingoistic and because of the way the money is dealt with.

True respect does not depend on symbols.

we might be able to afford decent social care for people like ex-servicemen & women.

We can, austerity is a political choice, not a fiscal necessity.

Well I will be remembering both my Grandads and of course the other brave men and women doing their duty. One of my Grandads was a dispatch rider delivering mail and messages on the front on a motorbike. A kinder gentler man you couldn’t find. The other a career soldier that got to rank of Major. Hard as nails he was. I don’t need a Remembrance Day to honour their memory. If people don’t want to remember that’s fine. If people want to wear a poppy that’s also fine. Why do we feel the need to force people to decide if they are for or against all the time.

Also the only point at which to honour the dead of wars is 11am on the 11th.

I won't be remembering because I have never seen any war first hand. Thankfully other people have done the fighting. I suspect that an awful lot of people who have would rather forget than remember as well.

I will be respectfully thinking about casualties of war. Dead or injured, civilian or military, big war, small war, civil war.

War results from failure. More often than not, the ones who suffer aren't those who made the errors in the first place.

Yes, I think it's true that there is now a poppy mafia, and those who choose not to wear it should be respected in their choice.

No, I don't think the day should be scrapped and I think it and the RBL are still relevant to the 21st century. War hasn't continued because we remember our war dead.

Simon Jenkins may try to dismiss the sense that many in 1945 and after had that 'we' won the war, and it's true 3/4's of Germans were killed on the Eastern Front. But, and this bit is crucial, it wasn't Hitlers co-conspirator Stalin who stood up to him in 1939, nor was it the USA, it was the British & French Empires. If Britian had then submitted to an offer of armistice in June 1940 it is almost certain the USSR would have been defeated in 1941. So I get why many still see it as 'our' victory, even if it was shared with many other nations.

Still, Simon would probably be happy if the UK had surrendered in 1940; Remembrance Sunday wouldn't have been permitted after that. He is correct that the victors get to write the history.

I'd recommend he directs his attention to Victory Day parades held to mark the nazi defeat in 1945 - the ones in Moscow are probably the biggest. In my opinion that's a kind of remembering that might encourage war and is nothing like a sombre Remembrance Day parade!

Might I politely suggest that those who feel unable to get involved do what ever they feel appropriate. However nasty attacks on something people feel strongly about is hardly mature or nice. Funny how those who wish to "move on" and be all caring etc are those least likely to care about the wishes of others. As proved above. Nothing scathing or nasty from those with a wish to remember, plenty from those who care more about their own views than those of others. Thankfully several generations put themselves at risk so that you have that privilege.

+1

Apparently, he thought that the country should be looking forward, not back all the time.

Just looking at the TV schedule it would seem as though the nation was still hungry for and nostalgic about Ww2.

"how we won the war"
"Britain at war"
Etc etc....

I can't be doing with wearing or buying a poppy. It has, imo, been hijacked by the media and various Britain First type groups and now carries a somewhat jingoistic and nationalistic undertone.

It's crap.

You don't need tanks And subs to take over a country, its all done by the stock market and social media. That bit of threat from terrorism (which numerically is quite small), tanks and subs couldn't sort out anyway. The ruskies helped put trumpski in place without a bullet being fired. What's the point of Trident when our streets are filling up with itinerant mendicants?

Just looking at the TV schedule it would seem as though the nation was still hungry for and nostalgic about Ww2.

"[i]The public wants what the public gets"[/i]

Also the only point at which to honour the dead of wars is 11am on the 11th.

Really? Why?

Seems completely arbitrary to me. Surely, if someone did something worthy of honour, then what difference does it make when you honour them?

What next, an allowed 5 minutes for caring about wildlife when you can only donate to wildlife charities between 5.23 and 5.28 on the 23rd February each year?

Either something is worthy of consideration or it's not.

footflaps - Member

Also the only point at which to honour the dead of wars is 11am on the 11th.

Really? Why

I will not wear a red poppy given the way it has been hijacked by the jingoistic and because of the way the money is dealt with.

True respect does not depend on symbols.

Pondo - fair enough.

Footflaps. I meant remembrance Sunday I don't like. Its a festival of jingoism. Remembrance day is the 11th at 11am - thats when all should stop for a minutes silence. I always try to get it observed at work. this year I will not be working. All electronics will go off. I will observe a minutes silence

Remembrance Sunday is about having a time that is convenient for people so they can been seen to do something without having to stop businesses etc. Remembrance should not be about what is convenient. War is not convenient. the 11th at 11 is the anniversary of the signing of the armistice at the end of WW1. that's why its remembrance time. It should be a personal thing. It should not be about being seen to do something. It should be about stopping and thinking.

Again - My opinion

However also the point that anytime is good for remembrance is equally valid.

Want a particular occasion - then the 11th at 11am.