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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26399412
With a failing conservative governmnet, somebodies woken vague hauge from his slumbers and reminded him of the thatcher /falklands effect had on the voting uk public, so he will be pushing for a war/fight as a way of taking the uks populations mind off their failings to date.
Let battle commence
No chance. Even the present government aren't that desperate.
Yeah, it's gonna be a full scale ruck, we're coming out of afghanistan/ iraq (apparently) this year, the troops need something to do to earn their brass 😉
Stop being so wishy-washy, OP, get off the fence and pick a damn side
No
I wonder how much we still depend on Russia for supplies of natural gas?
Nah the west will sit back and let Putin provoke the Ukrainians with troop buildups economic blackmail etc. Untill the Ukrainians, Putin's own provocateurs and/or the right wing nutters in the protest movement give him the justification to annex the bits of Ukraine he wants just like he did in Georgia
(Tinfoil hat time)
In fact Putin's stooge yanukovich was so successful at pillaging Ukraine's choffers yet so incompetent facing down the rioters that the entire thing stinks of a setup
So we won't pick a fight with N Korea as it might have Nukes but Russia Lets GO!!
Not a chance.
How tasty are the Ukrainians if it kicks off?
It would be a short war. Putin turns the gas off and our lights go out.
That's a no then.
If only the UK had the means to provide stable energy to the entire country without relying on Russia...
Nuclear anyone?
They could always take all 600 MPs for a visit to a valley in Crimea...
It looks like fancy posturing of power, flexing muscles in a stand off between East and West. The real losers will be Ukranians if things turn nasty.
Granted we can spectate awesome fireworks etc, man but who is going to rebuild Ukraine if shit happens? They really need start to think of their future.
Events in Georgia showed, there will be no messing about. Doubt Ukranian neonazis fancy this kind of battle. Splitting Ukraine will be catastrophic for its citizens.
guardian live blog to the rescue!
oldnpastit - Member
I wonder how much we still depend on Russia for supplies of natural gas?
- wrong5thElefant - Member
It would be a short war. Putin turns the gas off and our lights go out.
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zippykona - Member
How tasty are the Ukrainians if it kicks off?
tasty enough for russia not to want a war with
however, with no parliament and the loyalties of large parts of ukraines army up for question it wouldnt be much of problem
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guardian live blog to the rescue!
In that case... CHARGE!!!!!!!!
They could always take all 600 MPs for a visit to a valley in Crimea
hardly the Light Brigade; have you seen the size of some of them!
No chance, it's Georgia mark 2
Putin has caught the RoW totally unprepared with this. Verge of war in Ukraine and we have Salt on Ch4 at 9:00. Great choice of film!?!?!?
The British are insignificant in all this.
Putin has been rather clever I think. He gets to flex his muscles, flip the bird at the US and the EU, move into the box seat with China, intimidate his neighbours and increase his sphere of influence. For what, being sent to Coventry for a bit by others at the top table? Pfft, Putin just got his own table with a seat for the Chinese and no-one else.
Putin has been rather clever I think.
As depressing as it is, he appears to have been out-thinking his opposite numbers for several years now.
The Chinese won't be swapping love message with Putin or Russia in our lifetimes.
The Chinese won't be swapping love message with Putin or Russia in our lifetimes.
No you are right, they will however engage with them at the expense of the US. My greatest fear is a return to isolationist policy over the pond. Whilst this is probably quite desirable for poor people in sandy countries I'm concerned at what we then do when our prop gets removed.
I love the irony of us and the Americans getting uppity about invading countries in contravention of international law. If you were Putin, would you bother listening to us? Or just shake your head in disbelief at the rank hypocrisy?!
Do as we say, not as we do! At least he chooses wars he can win!
Putin will annexe the bits he wants, then set about making life as miserable as possible for the rest. And nobody will do a bloody thing! Then the Ukranians will soon discover the difference between the idealised view they had of Europe, and the useless, corrupt, self-serving and toothless reality. In case they haven 't fathomed that already
flip the bird at the US and the EU
If it does kick-off I fully expect some magic bombs to magically appear out of nowhere over Russian targets (within Crimea), and for the US to know nothing about them
OP, you & reality need to get reacquainted...
Europe and the US, are China's biggest markets, they have nothing to gain by siding with Russia, who they have long considered an enemy.
I sincerely hope that we remain "insignificant in all of this". I find what is going on particularly worrying if not frightening. It's a bizarre parallel day of seeming normality why very dangerous events are potentially unfolding nit very far away.
I hope Putin's disdain and disregards for any dissenting voices is being noted load and clear.
Europe and the US, are China's biggest markets, they have nothing to gain by siding with Russia, who they have long considered an enemy.
I don't think it's a case of siding with each other, it's the relegation of the US and the European Union that's the important factor. China will talk with the next biggest dog first before speaking with the yappy ones. I'd say that's now Russia.
and so far the only Vague hague has said is were boycotting talks about the setting up of the G8 junket at sochi, well a few less talking heads having free meals and holidays then.and nobodies going to the parylmpic winter games.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26404584
Finding the differences in the reporting by the BBC and RT curious...................
What would you want him to do, project?
keep his nose out.
Which in effect.......?
Crimea is lost. Eastern regions to follow. We should really be worried about the sizeable Russian minorities in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania who justifiably feel aggrieved about the poor treatment that they get from our NATO allies. An attack on one, is an attack on all.
Putin's own personal propaganda channel spinning the news differently from every one else, who'd a thunk it ?
Binners
useless, corrupt, toothless .
For all the EUs faults the post soviet version of corruption puts the EU to shame
My friend in Ukraine is well aware that the EU isn't perfect but the oligarchs and Putin have driven the Ukrainian economy into the ground
Eurovision song contest should be intresting this year if it happens,its on in May.
No one is going to mess with Russia directly but China won't be happy about Russia starting to flex it's military muscle.
Still be glad the UK has no real need for Russian anything and GCHQ and nukes can be used for their proper purpose i.e. keeping Russia in check.
Finding the differences in the reporting by the BBC and RT curious...................
Let me guess,
RT: Ukraine crisis and general pro-Russian propaganda.
BBC: Endless guff about the royal family, and cryptic football 'news' headlines.
Not really. Bridget Kendall's analysis seems v good to me. As was Simpson's simple but sober message.
Callng him David Cameroon is a bit harsh for the people of Cameroon, isn't it? How about something like David Macaroon instead? Anyway, here's a picture of a coconut:
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And here's one wearing a suit:
[img] https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTpdiFpoM4AzTeg_lN7h9CLn__OLsfVTk_VFyVkElJQli3tI0XP [/img]
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I found RT's description of the heavily armed, no insignia uniformed troops who arrived in a massive convoy of Russian trucks as "concerned ethnic Russians who are protecting government buildings from extremists", very accurate.
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Quote of the year, this morning:
[i]"You just don't in the 21st Century behave in 19th Century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext" [/i]
Mr John Kerry
Perhaps, when looking for completely trumped-up pretext, he might want to examine his own countries recent foreign adventures (WMD's anyone?).
You really couldn't make it up 🙄
Callng him David Cameroon is a bit harsh for the people of Cameroon, isn't it?
It's (Ca)moron, surely?
The kind of language being used by Obama et al indicates to me that the west have virtually no options here. Which is a pity for anyone in Ukraine who actually believed that the EU and the rest of the west would ride to their rescue if Russia got narky. Putin, of course, knows this, so just ignores the bluster and does what he needs to do.
The Russian position so far can be justified far more easily than some of the US and UK's little adventures in recent years.
The current borders of Ukraine are unsustainable if its government is in disagreement with Russia. Crimea was artificially tacked onto Ukraine despite being Russian, and laden with Russian military assets. How did anyone think Putin would respond to a new government (as yet unelected) which might be considering reprisals against Russian people and Russian interests?
As for the reportage, RT and BBC seemed equally biased, so watching both would be advised. Did anyone else see the footage of one of those leading the 'revolution' marching into a ministry post handover and physically attack some poor functionary because he couldn't answer a question? Russia is right to be wary of the new government, and we should be too before throwing our weight behind them.
I'd be more worried if I were Scottish. Apparently Dave is looking admiringly at the way the shirtless crocodile wrestler is handling this, and has sent little Willie over there, under the guise of a diplomatic mission, to get some pointers on securing military assets at Faslane, post independence 😆
All of a sudden 2014 has gone all 1914 🙁
No chance of anything happening, the US and britian, will tut away at invading a nation(but everyone else will just laugh at them considering their recent history of invasions). Russia will annex Crimea as an independent protectorate or some such, the Ukrainians will bump their gums about it. But ultimately russia will get what it wants(If not over step it's reach, but my guess on that is how the Ukrainians react and how much of a lesson they want taught.)
Ahh the good old impartial beeb, they'd never take a biased stand point... 😆kimbers - Member
Putin's own personal propaganda channel spinning the news differently from every one else, who'd a thunk it ?Binners
Putin may have been tactically astute here but perhaps less strategically so. The west is the opposite, so far too early to start lampooing the western leaders completely even if they have mishandled the situation. With Russia forced to raise interest rates today in response to the flight of its currency, the financial markets down 10%, the goodwill from $30bn "investment" in Sochi gone almost overnight and inevitable economic sanctions coming, Putin has opened up a whole new can of domestic and international concerns.
Scary times....
Putin’s geostrategically irrational muscle-flexing might enhance his legitimacy at home and stabilize the system he built for a while. But, over time, it will be Putinism’s undoing. Imperialist behavior will make Russia a rogue state and Putin persona non grata. Boris Nemtsov, a liberal Russian politician, described the consequences of Putin’s folly well on a Facebook post. “This bloody madness,” he wrote, “will have high costs for Russia and Ukraine: once again young boys from both sides will die, mothers and wives will weep, and children will become orphans. Billions, tens of billions of rubles will be taken from senior citizens and children and thrown at war, and afterwards still greater resources will be needed to sustain the criminal regime of the Crimea.” But that, Nemtsov continued, is just what Putin desires. “He cannot hold on to power any other way. The vampire needs war. He needs the people’s blood.”Today, the international community, the European Union, and the United States face the greatest threat to world peace since the Cold War. After all, if Putin can get away with Ukraine, why would he stop there? If the West will not respond forcefully to such imperialism in a country as large as Ukraine, it is unlikely that it would be ready to stop him on behalf of tiny Estonia and Latvia. The world should have learned from World War II that stopping aggression before it spreads is the best way to prevent geopolitical and humanitarian catastrophes. The West cannot close its eyes to fascistoid imperialism. It must express its full support of Ukraine and tell Putin, in no uncertain terms, that only an immediate withdrawal of all Russian troops can forestall Russia’s transformation into a rogue state.
[i]Foreign Affairs[/i] today
Obama will do nothing of any consequence. He has already announced cuts in defence spending. American forces are withdrawing from any meaningful overseas presence, starting with Afghanistan. When he told the Egyptian military that he was suspending support, who sidled up and said "Don't worry, I'm your guy"? Putin.
The idea that anything will stop Putin ensuring his military bases in the Crimea is fanciful. Obama and NATO will do a lot of complaining and Putin will just shrug and say whatever Russian is for "Yeah, whatevah".
The west is weak and doesn't have the heart for any more conflict. Also, it's influence is on the wain. Putin knows this and is just playing the Great Game to his advantage. The Chinese will do nothing, They can afford to sit and wait while the thing plays itself out.
The new Ukranian "government" had best just go - "Hey P. Crimea. Yours." if it wants to survive without bloodshed.
Perhaps, when looking for completely trumped-up pretext, he might want to examine his own countries recent foreign adventures (WMD's anyone?).
Perhapse you should? The USA didn't make much of the WMD claims, they went in for regime change and nothing else. Hingeing the opperation on the WMD claim was a British thing. They claimed they were possibly there, but they didn't pin their hat on it.
interesting opinion piece in the Observer this weekend that take a little more reflective view on the departure of Yanukovych
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/02/crimea-crisis-russia-ukraine-cold-war
and some great journalism from the BBC, looking behind the scenes at some of the protesters in Kiev
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26394980
Can't help but feel a level of respect for Putin in thumbing his nose and reminding the West of Panama, Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan - the irony is so strong you could brush your teeth with it 😈
I see Germany is already backing off the 'throw them out the G8' position - amazing what happens when you've closed down your Nuclear reactors and end up relying on Russian gas to keep the lights on! (Anti-Fracking protesters, take note!)
There will be a short term hit on the stock markets, but Russia is still resource rich, and we saw how short the West's memory was when it kicked off in South Ossetia, and the same 'big bad Russia' rhetoric got trotted out.
THM - I notice that your fairly apocalyptic extract is written by Alexander Motyl, an US-based Ukranian who frequently writes with a notable bias against Russian influence in Ukraine (and that's putting it mildly).
By his definition there are quite a few rogue states around the world, including the US.
Plenty of posturing on both sides. I don't think the Ukranian military has the appetite for direct confrontation with a greatly superior force, and the west will certainly not be dragged in.
Are wars going smaller with suicide bombers doing a better job than b52s?
No doubt Moscow train station can expect to phone the decorators soon.
Perhapse you should? The USA didn't make much of the WMD claims, they went in for regime change and nothing else. Hingeing the opperation on the WMD claim was a British thing. They claimed they were possibly there, but they didn't pin their hat on it.
Apart from championing UN resolution 1441, which was principally about the failure of Iraq to disarm fully after the first Gulf War. This was the tool used to make the war legitimate.
Their certainty about the intelligence is neither here nor there - they thought it was strong enough to justify the resolution and the invasion.
Can't help but feel a level of respect for Putin
What the guy is a corrupt, murdering, nut job, who has been ramping up the Russian military machine for a good while now. The concern is where will he stop? The West can't do anything military wise, it would end in WWIII but it sure can make life difficult for the regime at the top, by other means.
Makes me laugh only 2 weeks ago the Guardian were writing articles about how we no longer need the armed forces or nukes, as this was the safest time in all of history. We've heard that before and it didn't end well last time either.
The USA didn't make much of the WMD claims, they went in for regime change and nothing else. Hingeing the opperation on the WMD claim was a British thing. They claimed they were possibly there, but they didn't pin their hat on it.
Well I seem to remember some ridiculous Dr Evil style mobile biological weapons facilities, presented to the UN by someone who really should have known better
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Whatever happened to them eh?
I suppose it was a step above the spurious bollox offered on Afghanistan about combatting the heroin trade, ending corruption, and championing women's rights though. That went well! Its such shame as it was eminently believable. If you were a half-wit. Which I suppose was the target audience.
At least the Russians are honest! They've invaded to annexe the place, and the rest of the world can **** off!
Just read the sorry saga of the 'laboratories' again, Binners. 🙂 I'd forgotten the late Dr David Kelly's role in deflating the US and UK authorities on that one.
I guess the US line turned to regime change alone when they realised they had found damn-all else to hang their hats on.
What the guy is a corrupt, murdering, nut job, who has been ramping up the Russian military machine for a good while now. The concern is where will he stop?
Yes, fortunately our (UK & US) impeccable record leaves us firmly on the moral high ground on this one 😐
Whatever happened to them eh?
Meth Labs 😀
interesting take on why Russia don't particularly care for our feelings anymore!
In short, the Russians have figured out the bleeding obvious! 😀
Why anyone should surprised by all this is beyond me, on several levels.
Don't be to hard on Hague at least he's gone over there to tell them face to face "we are powerless". "We've no more armed forces to speak of and totally skint, also the Russia's are keeping our shops in London busy".
Historically Russia has always liked a good distance from it's border to Moscow.
Theme tune to Putins presidency.
Don't be to hard on Hague at least he's gone over there to tell them face to face "we are powerless". "[s]We've no more armed forces to speak of and totally skint,[/s] You know they still have nukes and supply the gas we rely on due to out inability to implement a sensible energy policy
Different take, we could have the US & China's military forces and we still wouldn't be able to do anything.
seosamh77 - that article is indeed stating the bleeding obvious. But thanks for posting, because once you've read that, everything else uttered on the subject is just pointless waffle. And it makes little Willie Hagues little trip over there completely laughable
That article is not quite right, Russia never cared about anyone but themselves, however, until recent times and the O&G boom they were essentially broke. Also helps that they know Obama is wet and has already said he want to look East and not West. Britain and France out of the states in Europe are best positioned to put some pressure on Russia but outwardly it'll only be words, I'm sure behind the scenes further discussions are going on. Looks like Germany for the sake of being 'green' have stumbled blindly into having no energy security, and will have to be nice to the Russian's for now at least.
The country that can't be very happy right now is Turkey, surrounded by waring or unstable countries on pretty much all sides.
And when you combine that with light reading on one of the main forces behind the protests and the takeover of Ukraine, Willie Hague needs to think carefully who he wants to align himself with.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20824693
Nice to see some of Nick Griffin's mates getting a bit of power and influence.
Off at a slight tangent here......didn't a certain Herr Hitler use a similar pretext to Putin's in 1939 when Germany invaded Poland?
Ukraine in 1943 was a mirror image of the current situation really. Ethic Germans being protected from the nasty Ruskies.
I may be wrong here but it seems that the peace treaties from the two major 20th century conflicts seem to be have been unravelling one by one since they were signed. I don't expect a replay of 1914 or even 1939, the world is a far more dangerous place now with nukes etc, but it is interesting to see that ethnic tensions still remain in a lot of the 'civilised' world and armed conflict has proved a wholly unsatisfactory method of sorting them out.
Herr Hitler's excuse about Sudetenland was a plausible story to disguise his ambitions to annexe a lot more land. If he'd have left it at Sudetenland, then I daresay things would have been different.
So I guess it comes down to whether Putin is prepared to pitch for the whole of Ukraine or not. I suspect he'd view western Ukraine as a pit of nationalist snakes that he wouldn't touch with a bargepole.
Perhaps Cameron will head off to Moscow and fetch a piece of paper to wave around?
Perhaps the Westminster government could do the same if Scotland goes independent. There are a lot of English speakers in Scotland who need protecting, there's even an important Naval base.
And the best bit is they won't be protected by NATO membership 😀
The cold war never ended. The Soviet Union just ran out of money. Now the "all new" Russian Federation has the revenue from selling gas and oil it can fuel up the bombers, build new weapons and engage in Jeux Sans Frontières, just like us.
Putin is a KGB man of the Soviet era - that's what he did for a job. It said it on his pay slip. The old school KGB are not really the types of bloke to turn all Mandela.
If I was a slight nutterish Ukrainian national (a % of the Ukrainian population - RT tells us) I'd be straight off to the reactors to spin up a couple of centrifuges to build me a bomb to burn Moscow, just in case the "liberator" from the East tried to er, liberate us. Or, if you had a certain sense of humour, build a dirty bomb from material gathered from Chernobyl. What would you have to loose - your going to be dead anyway.
^-- not my point of view, just a thought (not a nice one tho).
...as GCHQ put STW on the watch list!
Why is Hague talking this up so much?
Is there an home news story that the Government wants us to divert our attention from? Ah yes, the floods.
Shock horror A region that was once part of Russia, has Russian speakers in a area thats recently unstable has been nicked back. What will be West do?
**** all. The West has been invading countries allover the middle east for the past two decades.
Its an over-egged/talked up media rag-piece. Nothing will happen. The Russians have got it back. Fine, move on.
OP learn how to spell and also understand that Messers Bliar and Brown murdered hundreds of thousands on their watch..and counting.
With an eye to the future perhaps time Europe pushed on with fracking for gas and built new nuclear. Long term the less cash flowing to Russia the better.
http://euanmearns.com/the-primary-energy-tale-of-two-continents/
The war starts tomorrow morning at 05.00 sharp apparently. I'd better go for a ride tonight just in case.
Russia's Black Sea Fleet has told Ukrainian forces in Crimea to surrender by 5 a.m. (0300 GMT) on Tuesday or face a military assault, Interfax news agency quoted a source in the Ukrainian Defence Ministry as saying.
Is ti just me or is it really just horsetrading over where the new border/berlin wall will be?
"Messers Bliar and Brown murdered hundreds of thousands on their watch..and counting."
Blair is hoping that the "we'll let you off" letters sent to the IRA runners will set an example for him. But I digress...