[Closed] Wiggins v Froome - handbags at dawn?

It's sounding very Lemond/Fignon. Could be fun to watch 🙂

Or it's just hype by Sky but based on last year's TdF, there was definitely some niggle between Froome and Wiggo so there's some basis for it...

It 's not important what Froome thinks - what does his girlfriend think / say?

Surely Wiggins can remain the leader while supported Froome to win the tour?

Maybe Sky are trying to keep the opposition guessing.

Yeah, I'm sure there's an element of that aracer though I do think there's still some genuine stress.

wiggins seemed quite pragmatic on the radio this morning.

"it's my job to be good enough to be selected (as GC), it's David's (Brailsford) job to choose, it's a tricky decision - i wouldn't want to have to make it, but it's a job he's good at"

Wiggins chuckling to himself "it's a tricky decision" whilst Froome blubs "but you [i]promised[/i]" 🙂
Froome would have the last laugh if Wiggins fluffs the Giro though.

Isn't this simply a case of Wiggins letting Froome know that he better be up to the job otherwise he'll be taking over? Interesting though, I wondered last year whether Sky could get away with letting both race for 1st place so maybe this is their plan this year? Is it even do-able given there'll be conflicting priorities later in the race and in the mountain stages?

[url= http://www.inthegc.com/ ]Decent Blogger content[/url]

Did the deal between Wiggins and Froome get done over dinner at Granita?

Either way, things are shaping up well. Froome rode well on the tour of Romandie last week and Wiggins was looking comfortable in the Trentino before his bike failed, Looking forward to Saturday. Could be another good year for cycling.

I wonder what advantage they have that means they can assume they will be deciding who wins between them.

Thing is assuming (big assumption) that Wiggins comes out of the giro and is able to maintain his conditioning for the tour is he really going to lose that much to Froome in the mountains? Wiggins is still better against the clock and there is over 60k of individual time trials to do.

So assuming Wiggins is cast in the last man role he can let Froome cross the line ahead of him therefore fulfilling team orders but go all out on the time trials where I expect all riders in contention for either stage or GC would be given free reign. So long as he maintains touching distance in the mountains then he can play the team game and still win the tour.

Of course there are a few other riders they need to worry about aside from each other but for the sake of this thread I'm just talking about Froome and Wiggins.

Maybe Sky are trying to keep the opposition guessing.

^^^^this

I do think there's still some genuine stress.

there is stress because they are trying to act it up on the telly - give the press/ fans a line that eludes to infighting and get everyone in a tizzy.
I love it.
Really can't wait for the Giro to start. It is SO open this year, and there doesn't seem to have been much given away by the big names so far this season.

I'd like to see Wiggins catch up with Froome in the time trials and then meander along just behind him taking pictures and munching on snacks. maybe wave at people.

my guess is Brailsford is hedging his bets, the opening week of the tour is turning into a right blood bath having 2 possible GC contenders is just good sense. Who ever gets their nose in front and shows the best form after the first week is who the team will rally behind.

I wonder what advantage they have that means they can assume they will be deciding who wins between them.

I very much doubt that they are dividing up the spoils between them. We however are talking about them because the back and forth in the press the last couple of day has been between them and we are a predominantly British based forum and no doubt have a little bias towards stories of British based riders on a British based team.

I think the decision will only happen after the Giro.

If Wiggo wins Giro then he might let Froome do the Tour, if not he might want it himself. I dont think he has the legs for both without support from Froomy.

Edukator - they say "attempting to win". Not one of us WILL win.

couple of points...

Many, many riders, better than Wiggins have tried and failed to do the Giro Tour Double, It's not easy, and that's a massive understatement

The Tour field this year is very strong. Contador is still the man to beat IMO

Wiggins has been working a lot on his climbing, loosing a bit of TT speed in the process, so he won't be gaining big in the TT's, but he won't be loosing big in the mountains.

As last year ^^^^ .....

If Wiggins can keep in touch in the bumpy bits and TTs well hes got it sewn up. Mountain stages will be key but he may struggle, like to see him do it though.

Just noticed that in imitation of real life there are two threads on this subject - see [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/bradley-wiggins-giro-tour-double ]http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/bradley-wiggins-giro-tour-double[/url]
Which thread should be leader? It's a tricky decision, I'll leave it to Cougar to decide 🙂

[i]I'd like to see Wiggins catch up with Froome in the time trials and then meander along just behind him taking pictures and munching on snacks. maybe wave at people.[/i]

Or Froome getting to a mountain top so far ahead of Wiggins that he stops to buy an ice cream 🙂

I know it's a sporting contest first and foremost and Brailsford seems pretty good at remembering that but with a profile/sponsor perspective Wiggins would surely make a better leader (assuming whomever gets the job, gets the job done and wins). Try as I might I can't warm to Froome plus the "story" of a giro/tdf winner and a back to back tdf winner is so much better.

Many, many riders, better than Wiggins have tried and failed to do the Giro Tour Double, It's not easy, and that's a massive understatement

There is only about 7 riders who have done the double in the same year and its a who's who of cycling.

What it does show is the media are following up on last years results and keeping cycling in the news. When was the last time the Giro was talked about on the 6 o'clock news?

T'is all bluff and fluster. This is media creation at its very best, distracting other teams and fills the lungs with bull and bravado.
Let em fight it out on the hills I say.

Mind games by Sky.

They have probably already worked out whose doing what & its a ploy to keep the other teams guessing.

What mrlebowski said.... Notably Mr Nibali now wondering whether Wiggo is on form for the Giro or not and now hedging his bets.

Mind games by Sky.

They have probably already worked out whose doing what & its a ploy to keep the other teams guessing.

But how much difference does it really make to the other teams, prior to the races? They already know Sky has two GC contenders, and will have to mark them both until it becomes clear which is the real threat.

Personally I'd like to see Wiggins or Froome lead up to the last week, then Contador blow him away. Really don't like Sky.

Sadly I think it's academic as Bertie will have it sewn up 🙁

A.B.C.

Anyone But Contador.

But how much difference does it really make to the other teams, prior to the races? They already know Sky has two GC contenders, and will have to mark them both until it becomes clear which is the real threat

You know what? I don't honestly know how hard teams think about other teams & the tactics they might employ to outwit them. I really don't.

I think teams probably concentrate more on their own strengths & weaknesses rather than others, but knowing Sky go for "incremental gains" they may have just decided that mind games is another way of achieving that...

ps You want to see Bertie win? A proven doper? Really? I have to say if AC did win I wouldn't trust the result one little bit....but hey each to their own as they say. For certain its going to be an interesting race!

Mr lebowski is that aimed at me?
I most definitely don't want AC to win one little bit. I just think he'll 'hit form' during the tour. Sad face.

You know what? I don't honestly know how hard teams think about other teams & the tactics they might employ to outwit them. I really don't.

I think teams probably concentrate more on their own strengths & weaknesses rather than others, but knowing Sky go for "incremental gains" they may have just decided that mind games is another way of achieving that...

Yes and no, I would expect Sky to be closely monitoring Nibali, Contador etc during the race, likewise the other teams.

ps You want to see Bertie win? A proven doper? Really? I have to say if AC did win I wouldn't trust the result one little bit....but hey each to their own as they say. For certain its going to be an interesting race!

Yeah, seems a nice enough guy, and he's great to watch. CGAF about his doping, I watch cycling to be entertained, not as some kind of moral education. As long as the playing field's level and the results are close, that'll do for me.

No mogrim, sorry for any confusion king.

Yes and no, I would expect Sky to be closely monitoring Nibali, Contador etc during the race, likewise the other teams.

Agreed.

Yeah, seems a nice enough guy, and he's great to watch. CGAF about his doping, I watch cycling to be entertained, not as some kind of moral education. As long as the playing field's level and the results are close, that'll do for me.

Exciting rider for sure & yes one doesnt watch pro-cycling for its moral stance...although you can only hope that its cleaner than it was, but while McQuaid & his cronies are running the UCI I have my doubts...

it does make me chuckle when people go on about doping, and how bad Contador is, while blowing smoke up Froomes arse. If he was spanish or Italian you'd all be jumping at the chance to call him a doper.

mediocre rider at 25. two years off ill. returns as one of the best climbers in the world. Yeah right 🙄

Exciting rider for sure & yes one doesnt watch pro-cycling for its moral stance...although you can only hope that its cleaner than it was, but while McQuaid & his cronies are running the UCI I have my doubts...

Certainly I'd prefer it to be clean, these drugs do have nasty side-effects, and any culture that forces younger riders to take drugs in order to be competitive is not a nice one. But I'd be lying if I said that it affects my enjoyment of a decent mountain stage - this video is still great even if they were both up to their eyeballs:

it does make me chuckle when people go on about doping, and how bad Contador is, while blowing smoke up Froomes arse. If he was spanish or Italian you'd all be jumping at the chance to call him a doper.

mediocre rider at 25. two years off ill. returns as one of the best climbers in the world. Yeah right

Its not a well thought out or reasoned argunent but it is is apretty good one to get a reaction

PS he did not have two years off ill either but I doubt we should let the facts get in the way of this 😉

Interesting to see some riders are head and shoulders above others- you'd think with all the field now clean no one would be that much faster than others consistently.

Nothing like the old days at all is it.

Considering how long you defended LA for you are not amongst the people who I would ask if I wanted an opinion on doping in cycling. you have swung from LA denial to saying they all must cheat. the only consistent bits being your poor judgement and being wrong

So it seems Sky riders just benefit from better training methods and everyone else is a amateur.

Stop resting in the comfortable cushions of denial Junkyard.

Excelling your usual high[ low?] standards today dude

Can i just see your evidence- say like in a dosier like say USADA did then I can spend weeks and months denying it and wearing Froome prodicts in support [ and changing my FB page to ny hero] and then two minutes before he appears on Oprah I will accept it then accuse everyone else of cheating and being denial as I just so want to be like you and be the one true purveyor of truth and excellent judgement

I can never decide if you are a comedy genius or if you actually believe the stuff you post on here

As others have said, I reckon it a bit of bluster for the media -
If Wiggins wins the Giro, and the team belive he can carry his form through to the TdF I can't see them backing Froome for TdF GC.
I also reckon they'll have to decide pretty quickly during the Tour who they are backing as No1 - as trying to support 2 GC contenders in the same team has disaster written all over it.

I'll be amazed if Froome/Wiggins are on the same team in 2014 though...

Those cushions. Velvet? Crushed velvet? Crushed like my dreams before your fragile ones soon will be?

I don't like Wiggo... I don't like Froome

So ...

[img] [/img]

(just don't let 'em smash each other up too much ...as I'd still like one of them to win the thing... preferably Wiggins)

freeagent - the don't need to support two team leaders. They ride as one team, each rider with a job to do. Wiggo's job will be the last rider to be there with Froome, no different to Froome being there for Wiggo last year - they were both protected riders until the very closing stages of each stage. It's pretty easy for the team to support.

They managed it last year with effectively two team members down, they don't have the World Champ sprinter to think about and they lost Konstantin Suitsou early on last year.

The bonus of Wiggo thinking he can hold his form is that should something happen to Froome, he's on hand to pick up the pieces. 2 years ago when Wiggo crashed out, bar EBH going for a few sprints (and Thomas trying to take the Henri Desgrange prize) the race was over for Sky. Had the same happened last year, Sky would still have had the winner.

Those cushions. Velvet? Crushed velvet? Crushed like my dreams before your fragile ones soon will be?

[i]mediocre rider at 25. two years off ill. returns as one of the best climbers in the world. Yeah right [/i]

Of course there is another side to this.....perhaps in his time off all the riders climbing better than him have given up drugs and combined with his improvement and their demise....he's better?

I'd like to see Wiggy defend his yellow jersey anyway. having won the bloody thing, the least he deserves is the chance to defend it!

Its true though Junkyard.

I still can't throw out the various LA books/pictorial comeback book that was a birthday present. Denial, its a powerful river that flows that our veins.

[i]But I'd be lying if I said that it affects my enjoyment of a decent mountain stage - this video is still great even if they were both up to their eyeballs:[/i]

That video is quite incredible....would be interesting to know the times involved on that climb that day compared to the current 'post drugs' era.

That video is quite incredible....would be interesting to know the times involved on that climb that day compared to the current 'post drugs' era.

Not sure about the times, but the calculated power outputs have definitely gone down - which is a fairly reliable proxy for cleanness.

Christ hora/junkyard get a room! 😉

If he was spanish or Italian you'd all be jumping at the chance to call him a doper.

Please explain the coherent thinking that has lead to you to this conclusion....

If you go to this page
[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_sport [/url]

And organise by country in each letter category, the yanks stand out an absolute mile as the heaviest dopers.

As this is a cycling discussion, here's a more relevant page;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling
Certainly not dominated by the yanks.

FWIW Operación Puerto has just concluded. For now. 1 year sentence + fine to Fuentes, which means he won't be going to jail (first offence, < 2 years). He's going to appeal anyway.

The Spanish public + media are not too happy about the result, and would have liked full disclosure. The judge has said the lack of "procedural guarantees" and the fundamental rights of the sportsmen/women whose blood is in the famous bags trumps any public interest argument about their origin, and the bags will be destroyed once the appeal has been heard.

In other words, it's got a way to go yet.

interesting tweets from mrs (?) froome @michellecound
[i]
Chris & Brad on the same start line, in the same kit? Mmmmmm… doubt it![/i]
[i]
To those claiming that this Wiggins/Froome thing is some sort of publicity stunt, you are wrong.[/i]

[i]To those claiming that this Wiggins/Froome thing is some sort of publicity stunt, you are wrong.[/i]

Froome's girlfriend on twitter:-

Chris & Brad on the same start line, in the same kit? Mmmmmm… doubt it!

-edit: must cut and paste faster --

Froome's other half is brilliant. Just when you think it's all a bit tense and could do with calming down a bit she very publicly sticks her oar in and makes it worse. Has Cath Wiggins got in on the act yet?

If anyones taking bets on a scrap my money's on Mrs Wiggins.

To those claiming that this Wiggins/Froome thing is some sort of publicity stunt, you are wrong.

what.
ever.

Froome's not fit to wipe Sir Wiggys arse! I mean WHAT has he done anyway? (in comparison!)

Brailsford should come out and say he's promoted Froome to Wiggy's pit bitch.

mrlebowski - Member
Mind games by Sky.

They have probably already worked out whose doing what & its a ploy to keep the other teams guessing

+1

Don't we all know enough about Sir Brailsford to know he wouldnt be letting public squabbling destroy his teams chances at success?

His playing on the 2012 Tour happenings to promote "young upstart vs old and experienced" as psychology against the rest, end of.

He is lucky enough to have to GC riders in the tour, giving him more options to win and split the efforts of the competition.

Thats is all.

Just think about the age differance .....

Froomey has YEARS in him yet - Wiggo ??

Hope mr Brailsford gives the old man the nod ...

I don't think it's as clear cut as people are making out.

Yes, it's in Sky's interests to keep their rivals guessing and force them into strategies for both opponents

But

There is very real competition and rivalry between the two men that may spill over into animosity behind closed doors. That isn't 'made up'.

Brailsford is a smart operator. My guess is that he has them both on a fairly long leash because it currently suits his purpose. I think we can expect the leash to shorten considerably over the next few months.

Tdf 2013 course is not set up for wiggo,froome was 3:21 down on wiggo last year,can't see that gap happing this year

The speed with which Wiggins dumped Garmin when Sky came a waving pounds in his face suggests that Wiggins will do what Wiggins wants to do. It remains to be seen how that will work out, because in GT racing, you are only as good as your team, and I don't think Sir Wiggins is much of a team player.

Shame that the first Brit to win a Tour isn't such a likeable chap...

Its true though Junkyard.

I still can't throw out the various LA books/pictorial comeback book that was a birthday present. Denial, its a powerful river that flows that our veins.

Except you denied Armstrong was a cheat despite a massive body of evidence proving that he was - where's the evidence that Froome has cheated, other than your own amazing insight?

Tdf 2013 course is not set up for wiggo,froome was 3:21 down on wiggo last year,can't see that gap happing this year

Most of that time was also lost during one of the many crashes during the first few stages.

Grim how do froome/wiggins compare to the other clean riders?

I do love the 'show me the evidence'.
Okay, just how many of the tour winners of the twenty years preceding last year do think won clean? Why do you think that that has changed?
How far behind Armstrong was Wiggins in '09, you know that big doper? Who didn't trigger the blood passport? Really?
Just what is that crazy blood disease that Froomie has/had and why does it flair up pre tour training conveniently messing up yer bloods?
did everybody just decide to stop doping in '06 like the usada disclosure statements would have you believe?
The only evidence I want to see is proof that they aren't doping. Full disclosure of everything, bloods, SRM, tests, the whole kit and kaboodle thank you.
Otherwise why should I believe that cycling has suddenly turned clean?
less dirty =/= clean I'm afraid. Doping is binary.
Sorry, I've been suckered before: I remember Riis on Hautacam.....

Otherwise why should I believe that cycling has suddenly turned clean?

Yeah, but as I've already said on this thread: if there's a level playing field and it's entertaining, why do you care? I don't care if Daniel Craig was up to his eyes on coke or teetotal when he filmed the last Bond film, I just wanted to see an entertaining film. Why do you treat sport differently?

Too many top riders have allegations or subsequently caught. Sorry the Brits must be training on a bike differently eh?

Fast forward 5yrs. Lets have a conversation then.

Wining, fame and money are big drawers to highly competative men.

Too many top riders have allegations or subsequently caught. Sorry the Brits must be training on a bike differently eh?

Fast forward 5yrs. Lets have a conversation then.

Wining, fame and money are big drawers to highly competative men.

LOL.

Welcome to the real world fanboi!

I'm not arguing they're definitely clean at all hora - but let's wait for some evidence eh?

Your switch to saying that 'if Lance wasn't clean then no-one can be' is only barely more logical than your staunch defence of him despite reams of evidence he was cheating.

Riders allround him before and after were/are being caught. Even one admitting who was NEVER caught.

Wake up.
Plenty of clean riders. Poor and will never be loaded with prize money.

Wake up.

[img] [/img]

Thats right grim. I did. Et tu?

Jimmy Saville was doping too wasn't he?

Am I getting confused?

They don't need to decide until at least the first mountain stage (barring accidents), 60km tts = possibly a minute or two between the top 5, between Froome and Wiggins it may be about a minute if both are on form. That can be wiped away by 1 bad summit, and even on form, Wiggins may loose 20 secs per mountain finish in theory... then there are the other riders who can put a spanner in the works. So it should be close.
If I was Brailsford, I would obviously have both protected on flat stages, have both give 100% in tts, then have Wiggins marking Contador or Nibali et al in the mountains and Froome having the chance to attack. If you chase Froome's attacks in the knowledge Wiggins is sat on your wheel, then you may just sit up or stop hammering.
So if handled well, it is a huge advantage. If badly, then a potential disaster

And as for doping, please, when Armstrong and Ulrich etc were at it, there were pointers showing they may not be clean aside from being good. There were the high speeds, (watch a mountain stage from the tour in the early 2000's - it was very different to now (except for the Vuelta last year which was a bit dodgy)) the testamony of ex-teammates, ex-teammates testing positive shortly after leaving the team. In Sky's case, they have hired people who turned out to be dopers and a team Dr who is suspect. They have now got rid of most of these. Most of these such as Michael Rodgers did not show such a great level of performance at Sky as before, however many other riders have improved a lot at Sky. But this does not necessarily provide evidence of doping as such to me. It does not clear Sky, but it does not damn them either. They have hired riders who would be team leaders in smaller teams and used them as domestics. Merckx's teams did this for example.
As for Froome's improvement, it has not been unusual for riders to develop into stage racers after the age of 25 or so. Wiggins improved around the age of 29 or so - after stopping concentrating on the track and while at a team (Garmin) who have been from the start very anti-doping, and do not seem to have many riders fail tests.