[Closed] Why people don't bother with public transport

Nationalise it.
Invest in it.

It's supposed to be a public service, not a money making enterprise.

It’s supposed to be a public service, not a money making enterprise.

The thing is, very few Public Transport Companies make any money.
Of the train companies, Thameslink is making a good profit, along with Southern. GWR are doing alright (not massive profits), MML are doing OK, as they have a monopoly. West Coast are only just viable, East Coast is not doing well at all, it has, effectively, gone bust twice in the last 10 years.Scotrail has got massive subsidies, they are losing a lot, but the Scottish Parliament keep backing them.
Northern is a basket case, they cover a vast area, with price concious passengers - people want better value for money in the North, and also wages are not comparable to the London area.When it was last tendered, the DofT thought there would be no growth across the region, and factored that in by not supplying new trains etc. Growth suddenly went mad, hence trains were packed, but there was no money to buy new ones.
Local buses outside of the main metro areas are nearly all losing money, and only stay afloat due to subsidies either by the council, or Government.Thats why our local buses finish at 8pm now, and dont run at all on Sundays. The Council was paying them to run those empty buses.

What is a surprise to many people is that the Railways are so regulated, it makes making a profit very hard. The DofT tells the Rail Companies what trains to run, and when to run them, and how much profit they are expected to make. It also orders unsuitable rolling stock at exhorbitant prices. the current Hitachi trains on East Coast are something like double the cost of the old class 91's and coaches.
The Great Western electrification farce was all due to Railtrack, a nationalised company, ruled, again, by the DofT. Rather than finish the elctrification, which was years late, they cancelled 'non-core' parts of it, so now each train, rather than being only electric, has to have a diesel engine or 2 on each train. Another 50 tonnes of dead weight to carry on each train when it is running on electric. And far more complicated to service. And far more expensive to run. Again, over double the cost of other new trains. This was all specified by the Department of Transport.

Boarding bob. Nope – cheaper by train for one person. And quicker and more convenient

Yeah, in your Utopian world; as someone else said, my journey to work can take between 20-40 minutes by car, depending on traffic, it would take at least two hours by public transport, if there even was any public transport available to get me to work for 7am, which would involve me leaving home at roughly 4.30am, and on those days I’d be getting home at around 6.30pm. Do you do a regular 14 hour day, including travel, tj?
Then there’s getting to gigs in the evening, or rather, getting home. I’d love to be able to catch a cheap train to Bristol, then home again, but GWR won’t run a train back from Bristol later than 10.32pm. The Opeth gig I was at last night finished at 11.05pm, and the venue is a good thirty to forty minute walk from the station, so in order to catch the train I’d have had to leave at roughly 9.45pm.
The band cam on at 9.00, so I’d have seen 45 minutes of a two hour concert.
Yeah, you’re right, it’s really so much more convenient...
#rollseyes.
Oh, and the mate I went with lives six miles away, so one or other of us would have to drive out to pick him up, or him drive to me, or get a taxi, which would easily add ten quid to the cost. Each way.
Bugger that.

Yes I do a regular 13 hour day. Thats my shift pattern

However work is 5 mins by bike from my flat.

thing is I took decisions to live and work in such place that public transport would work for me.

My point simply is that public transport can ad often does work really well. When it doesn't its because of political decision or as in your case deciding to live where public transport is tricky

thats not public transport is crap - thats politicians have destroyed it and you have chosen a lifestyle where you use a car.

Count where do you live and work?

thing is I took decisions to live and work in such place that public transport would work for me.

I hate how people assume that everyone could easily choose to work 5 mins from their house but opt instead for 60 min commutes. Get your head out of your arse, it's ridiculous.

I used to work a 20 min walk from my house, then I lost my job, and the only one I could find was in the next city. It was either that or abandon my career. That's how it happens. People don't just go 'ooh, if I drive 2 hours a day I can afford some new curtains, my neighbours will be dead jealous!'

FFS.

Or move?

Its really very simple - I have taken decisions that allow me this lifestyle. You have taken different ones

No one HAS to do a long commute. Its always as a result of choices made

Public transport does need work. It's a 15 min drive to my wife's work from here, a 25 min cycle min cycle and about 80 mins by bus or 40 mins + 20 mins walk if you can.

This is because the bus routes only go in and out of the city centre.

Or move?

Moving costs money, did you not know that?

Its really very simple – I have taken decisions that allow me this lifestyle. You have taken different ones

Great. Those decisions worked for you. You are oversimplifying life, purely so that you can look down on people. This is shitty beahviour, please stop. EVERYONE wants a short commute - commuting is utter misery. But people have had to do it as the lesser of two evils. Because life isn't always easy. Stop pretending it is, it's really ****ing winding me up.

I left one job for another, and I moved house. I then got fired from that job. Yeah it was my fault. You going to gloat about that too? Mistakes happen. Things get ****ed up. You refuse to listen and simply crow about how brilliant you are. Please, show some understanding or stop typing.

Its really very simple – I have taken decisions that allow me this lifestyle. You have taken different ones

Ok, boomer.

Its nothing to do with looking down on people. Its about showing alternatives exist. Jeepers why put words and motivations in my mouth and mind?

so yes - you made a choice not to move house preferring the commute. Your choice.

I chose a profession where work is plentiful. I chose to live in a city, I chose to never have a car commute. this last choice has restricted what jobs I can do and I even had to refuse an offered post because the commute was too long and I didn't want to move

You are actually making me quite angry molgrips by claiming I am gloating. looking down on people and so on.

I am not. I am merely pointing out that was all make choices and we have to accept the outcome of them.

This was all specified by the Department of Transport.

Would it surprise you to know that DfT have literally zero national transport plan. They never have.

Sure there are occasional "rail" plans or "road" plans but there is zero joined up national transport plan linking road, rail, bus, active travel to things like cities, towns, villages, amenities and "desires" (things like popular holiday destinations, tourist attractions etc).

So it's hardly a surprise, when a massively London-centric organisation starts telling the regions what they should be doing without the slightest clue of what is actually going on up there with regards to new house-building, new job creation, new development etc, that it all gets lost in the confusion.

The other problem is funding. DfT makes available pots of cash which regions/councils can bid for. So rather than a council saying "here is what we need, here is how much it will cost", Government say "here is £100m, you can bid for some of it".

The council put in a bid and let's say they get £18m - that money is then ring-fenced for whatever scheme the council came up with in the first place so it can't be spent on any other schemes, if it doesn't get spent they have to give it back and if it's not enough to cover the original bid, either some money needs to come from elsewhere or the scheme gets cut back in order to fit the money that you have actually got. It's a dreadful way of funding and spending, it encourages profligate waste and appalling infrastructure built to a price point and there no overall planning behind it.

Hee you go, here's £5m to rebuild/modernise your station. But no money on better roads, buses etc to get the train users to the station. No money on better trains or more services. No joined up thinking.

Here you are, have a load of cash to subside the buses. But when you get a bus to the station, there's no staff, it's a dark windswept bit of platform and there's 1 train an hour except on weekends when there's none. Ooh, why is no-one using that bus service??!

TJ, you are looking at this from a purely Edinburgh-centric perspective. 30 buses an hour? Where else do you think that level of service exists in Scotland or even the rest of the UK outside of London? You are lucky in that your inter-modal system works. Try doing Newton Mearns to Leith 1hr 30mins by car vs 2h 18mins by public transport for a 63 mile journey. Or even better, Newton Mearns to Milngavie 40mins vs 1hr 12 mins for a 23 mile journey.

It could be better, that's indisputable, but the simple fact if the matter is that for the vast majority it's not. It's slow, infrequent, unreliable, expensive and not going to change any time soon.

You would not do newton means to leith in 1.30 apart from in the middle of the night. try it at peak times and it could be 3 hrs by car

But yes - a couple of my statements read as general when should have been specific and for that i apologise

the point simply was - public transport can work. When it doesn't its because of political choices and lifestyle choices

You are actually making me quite angry molgrips by claiming I am gloating. looking down on people and so on.

Afraid I'm with molegrips.

Sometimes in life choices can be influenced by things you don't have full control of. The ill health of others, relationship changes that are imposed on you, support services that are impacted by the postcode lottery, poor life choices that seem appropriate to the time and circumstances in which they were made, illness, disability,
redundancy, the lack of equality of opportunity that stops people making great life changing decisions, etc etc

its because of political choices and lifestyle choices

Rentier.

Interesting stuff. I'm changing jobs next week from nationwide/one car one occupant/CO2 disaster zone/hours at a time to public transport, ten minute drive then twenty minutes on the train or (once I suss the showers) a half hour cycle. I CANNOT wait to cycle.

This, I think, will be the shortest commute I've had since 1997 - it hasn't felt like it, but it's a choice, I'm just really lucky that I've been able to make this choice.

Argue I am wrong by all means and I have apologised for mistakes made in this discussion but argue I am gloating and making out I am better than others - thats actually pretty offensive and 100% wrong

Or move?

Its really very simple

Except, it isn't.

I live in a shitty terrace in a deprived ward of East Lancashire. I had my house valued maybe 5 years ago, the estate agent was in the house about 30 seconds before telling me the going rate for houses on my block and leaving. His valuation was £50k.

I work in tech. I'm fortunate enough now to have landed a role where I work from home and prior to that for the last decade it was (again fortunately) a ~20 minute commute if I took the scenic route. But do you know how many tech jobs there are in East Lancashire? The Pennine Valley isn't exactly Silicon Valley.

Before working for my current employer I worked in central Manchester and before that Warrington. Under perfect rush-hour conditions it was an hour's commute, Warrington especially was often twice that, and both vastly unpredictable. There's been times where I've given up and gone home, whilst working for a company that was watch-tapping at 8:32.

So, what then, "just move"? What do you reckon £50k would have got me by way of accommodation in Old Trafford? A tent on Seymore Grove allotments? The nearest place of residency to my Warrington job was Stockton Heath, a quick look on Rightmove suggests the going rate for a house is £300k. And all this whilst staying miles away from what little I've got left of family and friends. I'd have fared better by sacking the lot off and going filling shelves in ASDA.

I don't think you're gloating, I think that's an unfair assessment. I do however think you're viewing this discussion through privileged glasses and that's skewing your opinion. It can be simple, sure, with the right circumstances, but you cannot blanket-apply that thinking to everyone.

I worked for many years in jobs where I thought I didn't have a choice (mainly through my own life choices). I did have choices, they just weren't palatable to me at the time.

What do you reckon £50k would have got me

Quite yer whinging, that’ll get you a nice flat with panoramic city scape views of Edinburgh that.

The flat with the panoramic views might be in Kirkcaldy mind you.

Out of curiosity I wondered what was on Rightmove for Edinburgh for less than £60k, 8 properties. Do you own a camper van St. Vincent Place, New Town, Edinburgh, EH3
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-85061696.html

I am suprised as many as 8!

I don’t think you’re gloating, I think that’s an unfair assessment. I do however think you’re viewing this discussion through privileged glasses and that’s skewing your opinion. It can be simple, sure, with the right circumstances, but you cannot blanket-apply that thinking to everyone.

You are likely correct, but I think there is far more credit to what Tj says than he is being given credit for. I work with a large number of people (actually around the corner from where Tj lives) who have chosen to make lengthy commutes, so that they can have a larger house, with a bigger garden etc. Some people may have very little choice, but a large number have enough for what Tj says to have some merit.
Also, they all drive, and all complain about the traffic!

You are likely correct, but I think there is far more credit to what Tj says than he is being given credit for. I work with a large number of people (actually around the corner from where Tj lives) who have chosen to make lengthy commutes, so that they can have a larger house, with a bigger garden etc. Some people may have very little choice, but a large number have enough for what Tj says to have some merit.
Also, they all drive, and all complain about the traffic!

I don't know anyone who has done that. They do it because inner city schools are often nastier, crime is higher, pollution is higher, there is less greenery - people want to take their children for walks, they want green space for them to play. There are a whole rift of things on top of public transport that this country needs to get right before people are happy to spend money to move nearer to a new job. Some cities in the UK are so expensive now that it's not simply a case of living outside the city because you can have a bigger house, you live outside because you cannot afford to house your family nearer to work.

Let's not forget that a lot of us in the private sector change jobs everywhere two years, so there's no ****ing point moving anyway!

This guy says tj is wrong even with real costs.

Still - as TJ has said, alternatives exist.

Its about showing alternatives exist. Jeepers why put words and motivations in my mouth and mind?

You've said many times you don't understand people. So we're trying to explain people to you - you might want to listen.

You said that people only commute because they are greedy and want more money. This is true and also not true at the same time.

I lost my job in Cardiff once, a long time ago. I was a software engineer with only a few years' experience. I could not find a software engineering job in Cardiff as there are very few. I had no experience for other skilled jobs, so I'd have had to get an unskilled one. I was in contract in my flat so I'd have had to do a runner and get somewhere cheaper, which would have meant leaving my flat mates in the lurch. I had a graduate loan, I'd have had to default on that probably and bankrupted myself. Sure, you can say I shouldn't have had a graduate loan, but I did. Now, I'd found it hard to get a job already, so taking a break from my career would have made it very difficult to get more, and I'd have ended up in unskilled work for a while if not indefinitely. But the point is that I had skills and experience, and guess what - there was a job in Bristol. So I took it, despite it having a shit commute. I hated it too, but I needed the work.

Now - there are choices I could have made that would have not led down this path, but that's not helpful at that specific time. I can't go back and change things. So I did what I had to do. But it was NOT driven by greed. I was trying to make the best out of my life. This is an example of how people can end up commuting when they don't want to. Sure, some people are greedy, but not everyone is. And it's up to you if you consider people greedy to want somewhere safe to live, somewhere with clean air, a garden or park for your kids to play in, a decent school, and so on.

You are lucky in that your chosen profession is widely available and you have chosen to live in a big city with lots of work. You've been lucky in that you haven't had to get a job in a different city when your partner doesn't want to leave her job.

There is always an element of luck, for me, you, and anyone successful. ALWAYS. So don't judge people who don't have the luck you do. To use a metaphor, you play the cards you're dealt. Some people are brilliant players, some get dealt a good hand, and some are in between. But not everyone who wins is a brilliant player, it depends on your cards.

Basically what I'm saying is don't judge people. It's not really a radical idea.

pollution is higher, there is less greenery – people want to take their children for walks, they want green space for them to play

An element of irony there though, since the pollution and lack of green space is due in large part to the number of motorised vehicles.

This guy says tj is wrong even with real costs.

That's hilarious.

It gets worse with regular trips

I travel up north once a month roughly to see family, there's 100 quid gone. Train and bus to work (6 miles away) - 200pcm!

PCP of an electric Audi ID3 with a 340 mile range, £250-300. Insurance circa £100. Return journey to see family and friends = less than a tenner in electricity. Why am I using public transport again?

Argue I am wrong by all means and I have apologised for mistakes made in this discussion but argue I am gloating and making out I am better than others – thats actually pretty offensive and 100% wrong

I don't mean to offend but this is what your posts look like.

You need to acknowledge your good fortune. I try to do it every day. I am in a good position now by blind luck.

An element of irony there though, since the pollution and lack of green space is due in large part to the number of motorised vehicles.

Of course, but then to get round that you have to knock most of London down and turn it into miles of flats. Now unless flats are privately managed and gated, the space between the blocks of flats tend to be conducive to crime. Good luck convincing parents that they want their children to grow up in blocks of flats in dodgy parts of London or Manchester, with the green space between them inhabited by moped gangs and drug dealers.

We aren't Singapore, we don't have a culture that despite strong central control builds beautifully green cities. When we do central planning we do brutalism and pack the masses into shitty soviet aprtment blocks.

Is there an acceptance now that we DO have choice?

You said that people only commute because they are greedy and want more money.

I did not at all. Stop inventing things you want me to have said. What I said was a commute by car is always a result of choices made.

No wonder yo are angry with me if you think thats what I said. Its nothing like what I said.

You are lucky in that your chosen profession is widely available and you have chosen to live in a big city with lots of work. You’ve been lucky in that you haven’t had to get a job in a different city when your partner doesn’t want to leave her job.

No

I am in this position not by luck but because of deliberate choice. A part of the reason for choosing nursing was to always have work available. I chose to live in a city. My partner did spend a year working in London while I worked in manchester and another year working in yorkshire while I worked in Edinburgh

Basically what I’m saying is don’t judge people. It’s not really a radical idea.

Where did I make a single judgmental comment - please Molgrips I consider yo a friend but really I have not at all in any way. Go on - quote to me where I have used any judgmental language.

Oh flip - I have done it again haven't I?

Ok folks - I'll walk away for a while. Sorry

Where did I make a single judgmental comment

For reference, this comment

Its really very simple – I have taken decisions that allow me this lifestyle. You have taken different ones

No one HAS to do a long commute. Its always as a result of choices made

Comes across very judgemental indeed. Saying 'it's very simple' when we are clearly having an argument about it cannot be construed as anything other than dismissive. And by extrapolation, if you think it's easy to avoid commuting, and yet so many people do it, you are asserting yourself as clever than they are.

Some advice then, given in good faith:

- NEVER EVER say 'it's very simple' in an argument. Even if you think it is. It will just piss people off.

- Always say something like 'I appreciate your problem' or 'I understand how it can be difficult' even if you don't. In real life you can tell from someone's demeanour or body language if they are being hostile or friendly; online you can't so you have to be explicit.

Sorry for getting annoyed, but oversimplifying people's problems does that!

I am in this position not by luck but because of deliberate choice. A part of the reason for choosing nursing was to always have work available.

We can't all work in nursing, teaching or things with universal demand. Nor do we all want to or are we all capable of. I don't think I could handle being a nurse, nor do I think you'd enjoy computery stuff. Someone has to do nursing and someone has to at least try to get the computery stuff done properly. Computery jobs are very poorly distributed across the country as are many other niche industries, but they still need doing.

Nurse here with terrible public transport links. See my previous post.
I could move to be by the district general hospital but that would mean uprooting my family (school etc) to a miserable grotty town.

For me work is second to everything else. I'll happily commute by car and not catch two buses and a train making my 13 hour shift into a 19 hour one.

Definitely my choice. I certainly wouldn't choose to live purposely near a hospital. I work to live, not live to work. But then we are all different.

Nurse......For me work is second to everything else.

I get the feeling that you're going to get smacked upside the head by TJ for saying that.

Pick a foxhole now dude, I am.

@molgrips He seems a good chap though, I don't think he meant to be judgmental like some are accusing. Just has a bit of a strong head on him in regards to morality - I find that a blessing and a curse in others who are like that. You just have to accept that is who they are without taking it too personally - there is a time and a place where they are really useful to know, interact with or have around.

work is always second. Work to live not live to work

Molgrips - I don't get it. Not a single judgmental word or sentiment to that statement. I have no idea why you think there is.

I can see how others viewed it as judgmental, I just don't think you meant it that way. You have quite a direct and blunt writing style, so that's just how I read your posts these days. You guys need to take your arguing with a pinch of salt more, it's all just banter.

You would not do newton means to leith in 1.30 apart from in the middle of the night. try it at peak times and it could be 3 hrs by car

I've done prestwick to Leith in less than 90 mins many a time, and I'm 20 mins further away than newton mearns.

I’ve not had the chance to read every comment on here but the point that public transport has been a victim of political decisions is exactly right. I work for a local authority public transport body and by way of context our overall budget has reduced by 45% in seven years. What’s left (which isn’t much) is pretty much already accounted for by borrowing costs or statutory travel for the elderly and disabled (we spend £26m on this alone).

So when a bus service becomes commercially untenable, operators either cut the frequency (less attractive), put the prices up (again less attractive) or pull it all together. Historically we might have then considered subsidising the service but that budget is already fully allocated and then some at the start of each year.

All of the above is as a direct result of local authority budget austerity measures.

If you want public transport to work it needs investment and also make the alternatives (namely private car commuting) less attractive. Measures like work place parking levies (see Nottingham), restrictions on new private car parking and congestion or emissions charging. But these are difficult political decisions which aren’t vote winners so are generally avoided.

Ffs let's not get started on parking these commuter vehicles.

Update on the cupholders.

This bus has no cupholders.

90 mile round trip for me each day. Bus is my only public transport option.

I've worked out it costs me £15 to drive and park (excluding wear and tear on car) and £13 per day to sit on a freezing bus in the morning. On the way home there isn't even a light you can use to read by.

Even where there is good, frequent, cheap, reliable public transport such as the town I live in car owners don't use it. When I do the people using it are clearly the ones who don't have a car. It seems car owners would rather pay more to sit in trafic (rather than waft along the bus lanes), waste time hunting for a parking space, and pay for said space rather catch a bus.

Habit, ignorance, comfort, fear of strangers ? I don't know.

Why is this the only thread where you’re not allowed to be judgemental? My first instinct on hearing of a 90 mile round trip commute is that that is not a good thing. Some people may have little choice, but most people in that situation appear to accept it with reluctance, whilst they could have done more to avoid the situation.

I took a job with a 90 mile round trip commute to escape a hellish local job I'd been stuck in for five years. It took me another four to escape the job with the big commute, and it wasn't for lack of effort. National Cycle To Work day was a particular pain... 🙂

"All of the above is as a direct result of local authority budget austerity measures."

At the risk of sounding like someone on the Tory right, no it's not. It's because you took on debt when budgets were higher and because you're subsidising loss making services. That's not investment - investment gives you a return (like, say, the 147% return that the privatised public transport operators make) not a never ending money pit.

Some people may have little choice, but most people in that situation appear to accept it with reluctance, whilst they could have done more to avoid the situation

Depends on work (location, job type etc - not everyone can work from home), family (where the partner works, where the kids go to school), any dependents (older relatives nearby who need care), house prices, public transport availability/reliability. Very very few people get to choose all aspects of that and you can easily end up living mid way between your job 50 miles that way --> and your partner's job 50 miles that way <--

And people change jobs, start/end relationships - it's not as easy as just saying "oh I'll move to be just round the corner from my new job".

My first job out of uni: industrial estate out the back of the nuclear power station at Heysham. Very little decent housing nearby but if I'd have lived in Heysham, I'd have needed a car to do anything other than go to work. Or I could live in Lancaster within walking distance of shops, amenities, railway station etc and drive to work. Lancaster was an easy win (actually I rode to work but you get my point).

Public transport should FACILITATE lifestyle choices, not dictate them. And slagging people off for "choosing" to live somewhere and commute is the wrong end of the argument. Slag off Government for failing to provide the means to move people around efficiently.

Public transport should FACILITATE lifestyle choices, not dictate them.

Yes. But it works the other way too. The lovely rural areas of Britain, where many people would like to live, are struggling economically. So better transport links would allow people to live there and work in the bigger towns, but that would also bring money back to the rural places which would in turn grow their economies. Then, with good transport links companies can relocate themselves to the rural places and not be at a disadvantage.

This has already happened in the South East because you can get to and from London really easily. Money and business comes in and out of the capital. With better transport links that money and business could go further. If we make it a 90 minute trip to Manchester or Leeds then that will grow the economy in those places too. We grow by spreading the money around not letting it concentrate - which incidentally is one of the key aims and benefits of the EU.

Basically, geographical separation of any kind inhibits economic activity. So we should invest to minimise that; and the only sustainable way is with a really good rail network. The Victorians knew this, that's why railways were such a big thing.

The lovely rural areas of Britain, where many people HAVE to live, are struggling economically.

FTFY 😊

It's not like we can close down the countryside, do away with forestry, food production, tourism etc and all live in large cities.

The Victorians knew this, that’s why railways were such a big thing.

I call strawman.

Railways were a big thing because they were the only way to go long distances.

The Victorians did not all own a Ford Focus and a 3 series per household.

Nor could they trek to a local airport and jump on an Airbus.

What I said was a commute by car is always a result of choices made.

And I'm asserting that it isn't, not always. Or rather, it's often Hobson's Choice.

I could choose to work in a different profession, starting again from the bottom after doing what I do since I was 12. Or I could choose to move into the city, effectively halving my salary with rent / mortgage repayments. But really, are either of those particularly attractive choices?

I can see how others viewed it as judgmental, I just don’t think you meant it that way.

+1.

It's could be construed as belittling people's problems, like telling someone suffering from depression to cheer up. If someone is finding something challenging then just going "but it's easy, what's wrong with you?" isn't helpful.

As RBW said, I don't for a second think that that's what you actually thought or meant. But it's how it could come across if folk didn't know you better.

Even where there is good, frequent, cheap, reliable public transport such as the town I live in car owners don’t use it.

Surely that's situational? I know plenty of folk in London who don't even own a car.

If I go to Manchester these days, I'll drive to the park & ride on the outskirts of the city and get the Metro tram in. It's a 20-30 minute ride which is about what it would take to drive (and faster at peak times or if there's an event on) and a £4.80 round trip which is almost certainly less than it'd cost me to park for an amount of time.

if the cost of such good access to public transport is carrying my bike up 5 flights of stairs and getting woken up when my neighbours walk up and down there stairs/leave the window open when having a party.

Previous experiance living in such conditions on multiple occasions in my younger days i can understand peoples reluctance to move into blocks of flats just to get access to public transport when presented with the choice. Ill stick where i am with my once an hour bus - for going to town on a weekend its hands down the best way to travel. For going anywhere else the car wins simply due to the cost of getting the family on the train.

I call strawman.

Railways were a big thing because they were the only way to go long distances.

That's not what straw man means.

It was a big thing in Victorian times because it was the first time you *could* travel about the country. And that became very important. I'm just saying that transport is economically important. This is why I think it needs to be run on a strategic basis not as a profit making private enterprise. Although ironically in Victorian times that's what it was, of course.

If I go to Manchester these days, I’ll drive to the park & ride on the outskirts of the city and get the Metro tram in. It’s a 20-30 minute ride which is about what it would take to drive (and faster at peak times or if there’s an event on) and a £4.80 round trip which is almost certainly less than it’d cost me to park for an amount of time.

This. If I’m going into Manchester on my own it takes about half an hour including driving to the station to go by the mighty Northern Rail, vs. 45 min to drive. Cost about the same for parking vs. train fare too.

When we go in as a family then the car is cheaper. Not sure how much a congestion charge would alter this though.

I was going to post an image of my public transport route to my nursing job from rural Derbyshire to Sheffield, but postimage is giving it the 502.

But essentially to cover the 12.4 miles, I would need to get 4 buses taking about an 1 hour 50 mins, which includes 26 minutes of walking.
Whilst I'm good with the walking, it might not suit everyone. Unfortunately, the earliest journey time is after I start work.

I used to work shifts but as the wife left me and has new childcare concerns, I'm essentially a single parent for 90% of the time,so the work pattern I have landed fits well. I can leave my youngest with a neighbour for breakfast as their kids go to the same school and the bus picks them all up from the village. As I start early I sort all the kids from school to make a reciprocal arrangement with the neighbour's. I believe the fancy phrasing would be to say I am investing in my social capital....

I could clearly move to the city but my youngest gets educational support due to her autism. The chances of replicating this support in another Authority is slim at best, it took years to get to where we are and things are going very well. I do appreciate there are appeal processes etc in relation to services, but I also know how long and how difficult (and frankly emotionally draining) these things can be.

Alongside this about 5 year's ago we moved my mum and stepdad to our village due to their increasing needs, and the difficulties there were with home care services coverage.

For years, I commuted by bike working shifts, but life now without a car would be tricky, given all the above. In fairness, worrying about whether I use public transport is pretty low on my list of ****s, but I do accept my current 'choice' to commute by car is a result of my choices. But I do feel some folks choices are easier than others. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bemoaning my lot, I'm rather fond of my life which makes me pretty lucky.

Just google mapped my Journey to work.

7 miles to the next town over from home. to arrive in time for my 8am start.

Car - 18 minutes

Cycle - 41 minutes

Walk - 2hr 15 minutes.

Public transport - anywhere between 1hr 24 minutes and 2hrs 14 min.

I can take a series of buses that'll save me a whole minute compared with walking.

I could take the bus. One a day from the village, leaves 11am, returns 1pm to the nearest small town. Not really practical.

I could cycle, then get a train into London, then a tube, then a train back out of London, then a bus to get to work but I'm not going to. My commute is 1.5 hours as it is, would be three times that at least.

I could change jobs but what I do is very niche, I'm at the closest employer.

I could move but then my wife would need to change jobs and my kids would have to leave their excellent school.

I could go all Victorian and live in digs near work all the time. I've done that before but would prefer to see my kids.

I can take a series of buses that’ll save me a whole minute compared with walking.

But just think of the people you’ll get to meet...

Life is all about compromises, and people obviously have differing priorities.

I'm quite envious of those with a short-ish bike-able commute, but family circumstances dictate staying where we are - and at least my 1hr+ commute is broken up with a nice walk across the city centre and I get a bit of WFH in.

if you get an uber, does that count as public transport? it's at least you plus the driver, so comparable to a lot of buses.

I’ve done prestwick to Leith in less than 90 mins many a time, and I’m 20 mins further away than newton mearns.

In fairness his 3 hour estimate is about right when we left Troon at about 4 o'clock and arrived in Leith at the back of 7 after getting stuck in gridlock traffic from Maybury Road onwards. But barring home time you could easily do it in your time.

But just think of the people you’ll get to meet…

Where he stays? I'd rather not...

if you get an uber, does that count as public transport? 

Yes.

Chauffeur driven limousine?

If not, what's the difference?

if you get an uber, does that count as public transport? it’s at least you plus the driver, so comparable to a lot of buses.

You can share ubers with strangers (not the driver) can’t you? If not then it’s a private hire minicab, so no.

Bus companies are dinosaurs who are not Interested in innovating. Encourage smaller buses more regularly, maybe even owner drivers. Take a look at the Hong Kong mini bus model.

You can share ubers with strangers (not the driver) can’t you? If not then it’s a private hire minicab, so no.

Uberpool is active in London but hasn't been rolled out in the rest of the UK. As a rider if you click the option the driver will pick other people up heading in the same direction. By sharing the cab you get a cheaper fare. All uber cars are licensed private hire vehicles (mini cabs) in the UK.
You can argue whether private hire vehicles are public transport or not, but local authorities consider them as such, just not "mass" public transport. Even though a car journey with 1 passenger is still a car on the road for a period of time, it still helps reduce the number of cars in existence. Many of my customers aren't car owners, if it wasn't for taxi's/private hire they might become one.

Right, time to update the thread with my car-commuting experience, a totally unusual thing for me but I had to as it is getting a service near work. I followed the same route to work as I would use for cycling and if I had taken the bus, so this should be a like-for like comparison.

My first impression is that it is far too easy to use a car. There's no challenge, no investment in the journey. It made me feel lazy. The actual driving was not too bad though. Traffic was in line with how I would expect for the route, but there were many times when the width of the car compared to my bike was unnerving. I also missed the ability to pop onto cycletrack or road to overtake slower road users. Time-wise though, it was roughly equivalent to cycling*.

The major problem was at the far end... They are resurfacing a road near work and this totally messed up my route. Actually getting to the garage to drop the car off turned into a nightmare or one way streets. I am not looking forward to the journey home.

* - denotes a time saving due to not having to shower and get changed when I got to work.

if the cost of such good access to public transport is carrying my bike up 5 flights of stairs and getting woken up when my neighbours walk up and down there stairs/leave the window open when having a party.

Yup

Many folk would find my choice to live in an urban flat so I can get to work quickly and easily without a car unpalatable. I could easily have moved into the burbs or into commutterville and swapped my flat for a house and garden. However not having a car commute is that important to me that I put up with the urban flat.

Thats my choice. Others make different ones.

Its ALWAYS cheaper and quicker than using a car

PMSL at that.
Flight back was an hour late so I missed the yes it would have been cheaper bus from the airport. Thought it would be quicker to get the train and a check on the Trainline said yes, train leaves in 30 something minutes. Jump on a tram £6 to Haymarket then £20 for a train which arrived so packed only about a dozen people managed to get on and I simply couldn't have dealt with being in that kind of crush. Only 2 carriages and even with 4 it looked like there would have been people standing. Next train in 40+ minutes standing on a freezing cold platform. Driving Edinburgh - Dundee around £10-£12 and taken 40-50 minutes. So neither cheaper nor quicker and considerably less comfortable than a car

Bus companies are dinosaurs who are not Interested in innovating. Encourage smaller buses more regularly, maybe even owner drivers.

Anywhere there's a bus free-for-all, you end up with the popular/busy (ie profitable) routes having 4 or 5 different bus companies going down them all competing for a share of the cake but the unprofitable routes (less popular, those serving small communities with fewer potential customers) end up having no buses at all.

And then you have the situation we're in now where the small community all need cars to access work, shops etc.

And there's zero incentive to fix it because the private bus companies (franchises) don't give a ****, they're all about profit, not serving a community. The council won't subsidise it because they're massively cash-strapped. We return to my original point. Public transport should be publicly owned where the public (via local councils and devolved powers) can decide what services are needed and it's not necessarily about profit.

Bigbutslimmer - thats the comment I apologised for. It should have been prefaced by "where co ordinated public transport exists"

One of the reason london and edinburgh are outliers in the public transport effectiveness is they have public owned and run bus companies that are monopolies and that exist to serve communities not create profits for shareholders.

It's the unpredictability that I'm struggling with.

Last week:
Scotland to London on new Azuma was spot on time, comfy and worked on WiFi all the way down.
Coming home from London was InterCity 125, delayed the moment we left, again past Newcastle and trains cancelled last leg home to Dunblane. My wife came to pick me up at 11pm at night.

Today: I'm now comfortably in 1st class on Virgin service on my way to Blackpool.
To get here though has meant checking all morning as they've cancelled or running late half the trains down to Edinburgh. Even on the platform an hour earlier than intended I discover that that train with 'Glasgow' on the station boards is in fact the Edinburgh train - I could see the board inside the train saying so.
Cue me shouting to guard to confirm, local staff saying 'no, it's Glasgow' and guard saying 'yes, it's Edinburgh'. Then kefuffle as guard moves to get train away and half the folk onboard getting off and a full platform getting on! Even as I got on the local staff were telling us customers all off for not knowing which train it was!

If I had missed that train, I would have missed the ongoing service at Edinburgh to Preston.

How can the same 'service' be so different on different days?

How can the same ‘service’ be so different on different days?

Problems with track, infrastructure, train crew not being where they're supposed to be, signal/power failures, train breakdowns, suicides/trespassers....

None of them are really the fault of the Train Operating Companies but they can impact on services across the country for hours. There's virtually no resilience in the system at all.

Cupholders update#2

No cupholders but I think someone may have shat themselves.

I got a bus today, so I could pick my van up from the garage. It was really plush, with fancy seats, USB charging and wifi. It was also pretty expensive and not even half full. Definitely no cup holders.

Unfortunately the timetable isn't ideal for getting to and from work. I would have to wait 40 mins after work for a bus.

Fortunately I'm close enough to cycle.