[Closed] Why is under taking illegal?

How many five lane highways do we have in the UK?

Yeah, and when I rule the world shielded turn on red will be allowed too.

How many four lane ones do we have down near London where everyone sits in the outside 2 lanes?

I will say that as a pedestrian when I lived in Ostraya the left turn on red scared the crap out of me even when I'd been there for a year.

Yeah but London folk cheer when they get out of 2nd.

Why is under taking illegal?

It isn't.

AFAIK, "undertaking" doesn't even exist as a term used inside the law, you either pass on the right (ok) or pass on the left (bit naughty).

If the 'BMW drivers' promise to stick to 55mph - It may be okay?

I really don't get why BMW and Audi don't allow their steering wheels to turn to the left? Either that or all their drivers have some of limited vision which means they cannot see the inside lane of motorways.....

Anyone been done for undertaking or know anyone that has?

I do it all the time - to be honest - if your not overtaking you should be in lane 1 not any of the overtaking lanes - I am not crossing three lanes of traffic and back again just to overtake - so is safer just to quickly go past on the inside. IMHO

Which means you drive a (shudders) Ford or (dry retches) Renault.

Don't worry, keep saving and one day you too will be able to afford a good car

Edit: bugger, trolling doesn't wirk if you're so slow 2 other people post first.

I'll be honest, I drive a lot (in a Combo van) and it's not BMW and Audi drivers that do this. It's fairly evenly spread between pretty much any car that's not a BMW or Audi as they're all doing 80 as soon as they can.

Yawn at the BMW comments.

We aren't all like that.

But I am not going to get phased as Pink Floyd sounds mighty fine this evening.....

7 posts before a dig at someone for the car they drive! Well done!

I thought the reason that your weren't meant to undertake is thattraffic was always meant to be in the left most lane unless they were overtaking, in which case you couldn't undertake. Also it isn't illegal to pass on the left, happens all the time in heavy traffic on motorways!

Do Americans have a rule to pull to near side lane unless overtaking?

if you don't change lane to pass it's acceptable....

[i]She just doesn't get why it's not legal here when we're sat behind someone doing 60 in the outside lane when the other two lanes are clear for a distance. My answer is that you don't expect people to be passing you on the inside. But that's not really an answer is it- why aren't we expecting it? They expect it in the States.[/i]

Show her the road kill stats from America compared to the road mortality stats from the UK, that should explain things. There's a reason for lots of laws in the UK that might not be immediately obvious to an American but the general reasoning is that less people die as a result.

My experiences from driving in America is that they are terrible drivers, their lane discipline is appalling and while I've seen no accidents on freeways while I've been there I'm sure percentage-wise they get a lot more as a result of their poor lane culture.

If you are in the left lane, and some twonk is driving resolutely in the either of the overtaking lanes then it is not illegal to continue in your lane thus 'undertaking' them.

It is illegal I believe to move out of your lane to the left to get past someone.

I'm with hillsofsomerset on this. Generally, if I consider it safe to do so, I'll undertake, fk em. Listen to the Germans and the 7sec rule (maybe a myth, but sounds about right to me).
I have been told off for "Swerving" - overtaking a car from lane1-3-1 cuase they were hogging lane 2. I was getting done for speeding at the time though!

I can see the point that its harder for car drivers to see traffic to their immediate left though, which is probably why its frowned upon.

And they swan around in their huge black estate cars, the police too scared to arrest them, even if they're only doing 20mph...

As an aside, the first day I drove in Texas, some guy in a truck ran right into the back of us when we stopped in traffic. We anticipated him getting out with a pistol and shooting us but all he did was turn out to be terribly middle class and apologetic.

My experience of American drivers are that they are no worse than most over here.

Undertaking is illegal here because 90& of the drivers can't even cope with overtaking yet.

Haver you seen the standard of driving on our motorways? When was the last time you saw a car spaced the legal minimum 2 seconds from the car in front? Passing on both sides? They'd be total carnage!

If anyone wants to link to the legal act that forbids undertaking, then go ahead.
Doesn't exist though. 😉

[quote=munrobiker ]My experience of American drivers are that they are no worse than most over here.
How long have you been driving?

Great Gig In The Sky is on.

No more BMW driver references again and the world feels not too bad....

Undertaking? Prefer to call it maintaining the speed i'm doing in the lane i'm in (about 60/65 usually), lane one of most motorways is like a VIP lane these days.

If anyone wants to link to the legal act that forbids undertaking, then go ahead.
Doesn't exist though.

Highway Code 268: Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake

I once saw a white Landrover Discovery try to undertake another car in a bus lane. Serious test of his brakes, as the bus lane runs out quite abruptly as it approaches a roundabout, and the other guy was no way giving in.

tlr - Member
If you are in the left lane, and some twonk is driving resolutely in the either of the overtaking lanes then it is not illegal to continue in your lane thus 'undertaking' them.
It is illegal I believe to move out of your lane to the left to get past someone.
POSTED 8 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

This.

I "undertake" all the time, people get very upset, what you're not supposed to do is move to the left lane of someone, pass them and rejoin your lane. Presumably so that we all know people overtake on the right and it keeps things in a bit of order.

[i]My experience of American drivers are that they are no worse than most over here. [/i]

Here you go. Scroll down to the bottom for UK and US stats. Americans are far worse drivers than us. Dead people on the road prove it.

[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate [/url]

268
Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.

It's kind of obvious really isnt it?

1. we join and leave the motorway from the left hand lane so it makes sense to have this lane as the 'slowest'.

2. if you have people overtaking you from both sides then you have to be concentrating on looking back on both sides all the times. Restricting overtaking to one side dramatically cuts the work load. Yes you need to check your inside but not as much.

3. It just keeps good order. The American way of doing it is bloody stupid IMO. Just asking for trouble.

The should get tougher on middle lane hoggers. I wonder just how much congestion is caused by them. So frustrating when you get held up in a queue of cars all having to squeeze past someone in the middle lane. Well most people are, there is always one knob that comes steaming up the inside and undertakes everyone and the offending car and then squeezes back into a gap that is far too small. Repeat middle lane offenders should just have their licenses taken off them.

I can see the point that its harder for car drivers to see traffic to their immediate left though, which is probably why its frowned upon.

If you think visability is poor on the left in cars - try vans and trucks, the blind spots are huge thats why cyclists die there. But car drivers are well versed in passing through (or driving into then staying in) a trucks blind spot and getting squashed there. Its not necessarily the largest vehicles that have the biggest blind spot, you could hide a bus in the blind spot on my astra van.

In a lot of vehicles theres a plenty you can't see, most particularly on the left, so it helps having an etiquette for passing on one side rather than the other.

The should get tougher on middle lane hoggers. I wonder just how much congestion is caused by them.

Congestion is caused by overtaking when theres dense traffic - having lanes travelling at different speeds and the subsequent lane changing of faster vehicles. When the traffic is dense quicker drivers touch the brakes as they approach slower ones, and moving into other lanes the cars behind them brake a little too. Seeing brake lights other drivers brake a bit and a wave of braking goes back through the traffic until everything stops - then goes again with everyone unsure as why the traffic just stopped for no apparent reason. Thats why you get variable speed limits on busy stretches of motorway - slowing the traffic to 50 means all the lanes are moving at the same speed and theres less lane changing.

Highway Code 268: Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake

The HC is not a legal document.
Undertaking is not illegal.

druidh - Member
munrobiker » My experience of American drivers are that they are no worse than most over here.
How long have you been driving?
POSTED 14 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

I spend a lot of time on the roads, this week I've driven around 35 hours and 1500 miles. I've done 40,000 miles since January. I see a lot of bad driving.

The HC is not a legal document.
Undertaking is not illegal.

The Highway Code may be used in evidence in any court proceedings under the Traffic Acts (see 'The road user and the law') to establish liability. This includes rules which use advisory wording such as ‘should/should not’ or ‘do/do not’.

Although the 'undertaking' itself may not be, Dangerous Driving (which it would be) IS.

On non-Motorways that might just be 'Careless driving (driving without due care)'.

Rule 163 uses advisory wording and "will not, in itself, cause a person to be prosecuted", but may be used in evidence to establishing liability in any court proceedings

Not illegal but if you do it and the person you are undertaking pulls into your lane you may well be ****ed by your insurance

Although the 'undertaking' itself may not be, Dangerous Driving (which it would be) IS.

Have you any idea how hard it is to get a charge of dangerous driving to stick?
Merely passing a car on the left would't get you anywhere near the threshold for dangerous.

Not illegal but if you do it and the person you are undertaking pulls into your lane you may well be ****ed by your insurance

Generally speaking, the onus is on the driver changing lanes to make sure it is clear.

Worth mentioning that if you are ivolved in an accident which is not your fault, your premium can still increase.

Been known to do it in the car on occasion (as moving from the inside lane right to the outside lane and back again can be a pain in the arse, though also proves the point to Mr Middle Lane quite well). I will not do it on a motorbike though as that is just asking for pain and turmoil.

[i]Anyone been done for undertaking or know anyone that has?

[/i]

Had a big arguement once with a copper who pulled me for this. M25 going north and turned off for the M40 - its two lanes here.

I was on a m/c and just stayed at 70mph (already seen plod), and 'undertook' two cars that were running at about 60mph in the 2nd lane.

I stuck to the arguement that it was legal as they were obviously queuing, and it is legal to overtake on the left - why else would they be driving like that? Eventually he started to take a detailed look at my bike - and I told him in no uncertain way that if he'd finished I'd be off. He then swore and told me to go.

Undertaking only occurs when people are driving in the wrong lane, and usually causing an obstruction.

Careless driving (driving without due care)

This offence is committed when the accused's driving falls below the standard expected of a reasonable, prudent and competent driver in all the circumstances of the case.
The maximum penalties are:

a £2,500; and
mandatory 3 to 9 penalty points; and
discretionary disqualification.

Examples

The test of whether the standard of driving has fallen below the required standard is objective. It applies both when the manner of driving in question is deliberate and when it occurs as a result of incompetence, inadvertence or inexperience.
Occasionally an accident occurs but there is no evidence of any mechanical defect, illness of the driver or other explanation to account for why the accident happened. In these cases, a charge of careless driving may be successfully defended on the basis that there is no culpability. The case for the prosecution may be put on the basis that there is a very strong inference that the defendant was driving below the standard expected of a reasonable, prudent and competent driver because of, for example, the fact that a collision resulted.

The following are examples of driving which may amount to driving without due care and attention:

overtaking on the inside;

So then, pretty illegal I'd say. No?

So then, pretty illegal I'd say. No?

No.
That's not legislation, it's just a simplified bit of text that gives a couple of different examples of what [i][b]may[/b][/i] constitute careless driving.

I got pulled over for undertaking not long after I passed my test, 17 years ago. Travelling north on the M5 south of Gloucester. In the left lane doing 65ish. Middle lane full of traffic doing about 55ish, right lane not much more. Massive gaps between everything in the left lane. The old bill argued it was dangerous, I argued that I was travelling in the correct lane and everyone in the overtaking lanes were not "overtaking". Gave me a producer. I took his details and warrant number so I could report him. Didn't like that very much. Got off.

The problem arises when you have two lorrys overtaking each other.

Then one person starts to overtake them at 65mph.

Cars in the middle and outside lanes both want to pass the trucks so move out to the outside lane, you then have a queue of 3-4 cars doing 65mph behind the slow poke passing the trucks. If you don't move out to the outside lane fairly sharpish then you won't get into it, if you dare put your indicator on then people will speed up and close the gap you wished to move into, or just be general twunts safe in their metal box.

Impatient ****er belts up the middle lane and forces his way into the outside lane causing everyone to brake, the queue size increases, rinse and repeat. M6 from Preston to Birmingham every day of the week is totally shocking.

[i]Cars in the middle and outside lanes both want to pass the trucks so move out to the outside lane, you then have a queue of 3-4 cars doing 65mph behind the slow poke passing the trucks. If you don't move out to the outside lane fairly sharpish then you won't get into it, if you dare put your indicator on then people will speed up and close the gap you wished to move into, or just be general twunts safe in their metal box[/i]

Grow some...

Indicate, move and they'll give way - also helps if you pick on the right vehicle, ie not a Sprinter van, rep etc

This is why people should ride motorcycles. On what appears to be a 3 lane motorway, is in fact 5 lanes. 2 lanes exclusively reserved for 2wheelers 😛

Indicate, move and they'll give way - also helps if you pick on the right vehicle, ie not a Sprinter van, rep etc

Find a vehicle on the road during the day that isn't a rep or a van?

I never have a problem getting in lane, but the number of mongs on the road is increasing, along with the police presence decreasing.

And at the weekends the blue rinse brigade, the mums taking the kids to the shops and the caravan driving idiots come out. Full beams on, lights flashing, swerve at you, speed up if you try and overtake etc etc

I managed 40k a year for 4 years while at work, and did several track days in my private car, driving in the UK sucks big time.

Impatient ****er belts up the middle lane and forces his way into the outside lane causing everyone to brake, the queue size increases, rinse and repeat. M6 from Preston to Birmingham every day of the week is totally shocking

That's one way of describing it. The other is everyone sits in the outside lane 6ft from each other. I drive down the inside or middle lane at 65 past everyone, get to a lorry. I indicate and someone flashes and I move over. Then the person who lets me in may brake and all the idiots parked 6ft apart have to brake. I move back to the inside lane. I don't get the not indicating thing, some idiots may close a gap but most let you in.

If the 'BMW drivers' promise to stick to 55mph - It may be okay?

I hope you find a cure for that envy rather soon.

I do 40K a year in my BMW and I drive fairly quick (where the motorways aren't too busy) and I often find that the worst people for hogging lanes 3 or 3 & 4 are actually vans. Then the middle lane hoggers tend to be males in their 50's who think 56mph is the best for fuel economy.

Your car's gearing dictates what's best speed for economy, my *** 320D does about 43mpg at 56ish but does about 50MPG at 75mph and about 48mph at about 85mph.

I got stopped on my motorbike a few year ago for undertaking and I got the "they won't expect you to be in that lane when you undertake them" comment from a copper and when I replied with "exactly" and "that's why I do it" he actually saw my point. I regularly drive in rush hour on the M6/M62 and people literally come onto the motorway from the entrance slip, try their hardest to bully their way into lane 3 then sit in that lane until there's about 100 yards left for their exit.

I know exactly what points on the M6 and M62/60 to get out of lane 2 or 3 and get into lane 1 because lane 3 will grind to a halt and lane 1 will be dead. Perfect example is J22 M62 at Winter Hill heading West in rush hour. About a mile before the top of the hill at J22 Lane 3 slows right down, lane 1 is dead, I'll slowly use Lane 1, undertake a load of cars who aren't interested in anything other than the car in front, that is the only parameter they are concerned with. I'll probably gain 20 cars in one manoeuvre. If I can't find space to get back into lane 2 then tough, my gamble didn't pay off, if there is room to get back in without forcing anyone to stop (and using my indicators) then happy days.

If the government reversed the order of the lanes from 1-2-3 to 3-2-1 then things would be spot on 😆

Driving round the UK the roads appear to be full of selfish bell ends. You then drive elsewhere round the world and realise these selfish bulbs are actually pretty considerate, sensible and safe in the general scheme of things.
Our roads work well because you generally don't get people driving like baboons, under-taking willy nilly. The rough order of speed across the 3 lanes, plus only overtaking on the right, creates a safe and ordered environment and speeds up traffic movement.
It doesn't always feel like it when there's 10 million people looking up each others ringpiece on the M6 commute, but things work pretty well considering.

*caravan driving idiot waves at tarquin* 😆

I've undertaken folk, if it's a nice clear road, good conditions, some dork in the middle lane at 50 and a Merc getting bigger and bigger in the mirror in the outside lane.

I lean on the horn the entire way through the movement, that way they can't say they didn't know you were there.

The closest and potentially most lethal near miss I've had on a motorway was with a driver sitting in the middle lane on a very quiet motorway at night (A1M nr Ferry Bridge) and a New Mini undertaking as I was overtaking.

I over took them in the outside lane in my Van and then began to move back into into lane 1 and as I did I caught a brief flash of a bluish light from an LED type headlamp reflected in my van's bodywork which caused me to hesitate for half a second s the car I was overtaking was older and the light didn't match. The Mini flashed past me on the inside at well over the ton.

There's no doubt in my mind that; had it not been at night, had the light from the headlights not been so different to the car I was overtaking, had I not been moving in two separate maneuvers back to lane 1 and had I not hesitated, then we all would have had a massive accident. The guy wouldn't have had a chance of stopping or slowing down and I was checking my mirrors carefully throughout.

After that experience I'm reserving the right to view anyone openly admitting to undertaking and/or advocating that 'there's nothing wrong with it' a massive idiot.

Try going against the overtaking convention on a velodrome and see how long you last.

Oh and if you drive a BMW or an Audi - I will pre-judge you. Its nothing personal, it just keeps me alive.

Oh and if you drive a BMW or an Audi - I will pre-judge you. Its nothing personal, it just keeps me alive.

Don't worry you're a van driver who speeds so guess what?

I feel there should be a time limit for trucks to overtake each other or (as in Holland on dual carriage ways) they're not allowed to overtake at all. Trucks elephant racing and Police vehicles driving slowly cause the biggest problems to Motorway driving IMO

Your car's gearing dictates what's best speed for economy, my *** 320D does about 43mpg at 56ish but does about 50MPG at 75mph and about 48mph at about 85mph.

All in the same gear ?

about 48mph at about 85mph

Oh and if you drive a BMW or an Audi - I will pre-judge you. Its nothing personal, it just keeps me alive.
Don't worry you're a van driver who speeds so guess what?

How did you arrive at the conclusion that I speed? Did you jump there by any chance?

How did you arrive at the conclusion that I speed? Did you jump there by any chance?

I pre-judged you, nothing personal.

tyger - Member
Trucks elephant racing and Police vehicles driving slowly cause the biggest problems to Motorway driving IMO

On motorways those are occasional annoyances compared to the 50% of people who think they have to stay in the middle/RH lane the whole time.

On the M25 sometimes I go from the M4, all the way round to the A12 in the left 2 lanes which are almost completely empty, yet the right 2 or 3 lanes are chocablock with cool dudes duking it out over who can get closest to the car in front, constantly dabbing the brakes.

THe weird thing is, if you drive back from france the lane discipline is impecable, yet within about 5 miles of getting out of the train this side, the same drivers are beings stupid again.

After that experience I'm reserving the right to view anyone openly admitting to undertaking and/or advocating that 'there's nothing wrong with it' a massive idiot.

Sounds like you should spend less time insulting people and more time working on your piss-poor observation skills. 🙂

Not saying the mini driver wasn't in the wrong, the situation you describe (which I'm not 100% sure of, are you saying the mini came out of nowhere?) is exactly when you shouldn't pass on the left.

sbob - I'm saying that the speed of the mini was very much higher than either mine or the car I was over taking, such that when I first checked my mirrors and started to move around the car in the middle lane it wasn't in sight although I had to all the way across two lanes so it took a little time. My attention was then on seeing the car in the middle lane come in to my LH wing mirror and then into my rear view mirror so I could move back into the middle lane without cutting it up. During this time the mini approached, presumably at the same kind of speed it left at, and at some point (probably when it was at some distance away and I was still in the outside lane) committed to the decision of going up the inside. My Van is a T4 Combi and has a decent wing mirror, plenty of visibility and side windows and as I mentioned I was paying a lot of attention to my mirrors. This is why I found the circumstances of undertaking like this so dangerous though, that the blind spot is big enough for me not to see the mini approaching two lanes away over my left shoulder - although there's a good chance it was obscured by the lights of the slower car in the middle lane which may even have been on full beam until I was past them - it was a quiet night. Whatever the case - I had an acute sense that I'd still missed it despite my best efforts so that reinforced to me what a dodgy move it was.

If I hadn't have been paying enough attention I'd have had the feeling of 'shit - I've really got piss poor observation skills' but this was definitely 'shit - that's why you don't undertake'

As for anyone thinking they can deduce my speed from my first post with any level of confidence - well you'd have to be pretty dubious about their judgement skills. Best avoided on the road altogether I should think 😉

Strictly speaking, if you had changed lanes into the mini driver, it might have been your fault, irrespective of the fact he was speeding.
Lots of cars travel faster than 70 on a motorway, some legally, and you have to make provisions for this.

If you were doing the speed limit ( 😉 ) and the middle lane hog was therefore going slower, the mini driver's speed differential would have been too high no matter which side he chose to pass.

It is legal to undertake if the vehicle you are undertaking is moving slower than the flow of traffic.

It is legal to undertake if the vehicle you are undertaking is moving slower than the flow of traffic.

No it isn't.
Read the thread, or prove me wrong, your choice. 🙂

I've never known anyone to be done for undertaking - I'll happily do it someone's sat in lane 3 at 50 and I want to make progress

I'll domitbif...

Go on then 🙂

Read the thread, or prove me wrong, your choice.

Well that was easy.

268
Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, [b]where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right.[/b]

I witnessed an example of heroically dangerous undertaking in Bradford once, it involved the undertaking vehicle mounting the pavement and driving along it at about 60 before rejoining the road.

I saw plenty of other crap driving in that city, vehicles navigating roundabouts counter-clockwise etc etc.

Well that was easy.

I could have sworn you wrote "illegal", so my mistake.
Doesn't change the fact that the HC is not law.

My job in the UK sees me on the roads a lot, circa 40,000 miles a year and I genuinely think lorries are the biggest problems on our motorways. They cause more issues forcing people out because they are overtaking and slowly but surely they are getting slower as the speed limiters are being decreased.

I'm currently in the states and have done a lot of travelling and to be honest I think the roads are so much better out here because of the way people can undertake. Lorries don't appear to be limited so they can pass each other a lot quicker and if there is a slow one in the middle lane there is no problems under taking them if the traffic is moving just fine.

I've only seen one accident on the roads out here in the 6 months I've been here and that was a motorbiker that got knocked off during rush hour on the GWB. He was brave as hell riding through in the first place and was just unlucky squeezing for a gap he couldn't get.

On average I see at least 2 major accidents a week in the UK causing our motorways to crawl to a halt and normally in the outside lane where someone has slammed on the anchors because of an old woman who's moved out past two lorries and the person who hits her hasn't noticed how slow she's going in comparison to them.

Stats show that our roads are much safer than those of the US.

I could have sworn you wrote "illegal", so my mistake.

I didn't write legal either. 😀