[Closed] Why is everyone getting up in arms about the Indonesian executions ?

Obvious troll is obvious

Answering your own question is a novel take on it all

its not a troll post Im asking a genuine question, the media are having a field day over it...

its not a troll post Im asking a genuine question

Like this one ?

To start off with I don't agree with capital punishment...

Am I missing something here though ?

You don't agree with capital punishment so look within yourself to find the answer you seek 😕

If you trafficking drugs in that region you take your chances. If you are caught then be prepared to face the capital punishment.

Most of them have capital punishment of some sort so if you intend to traffic drugs go to South America because they will not execute you there.

In South East Asia you will be executed, apart from perhaps Thailand and Philippines who might give face to pleading from foreign leaders but the rest will not give a toss who you are. You break their rules you face the penalty.

If the traffickers are procuring their goods from that region then they are merely encouraging local people there to get into more troubles. They get executed too. Nobody will have sympathy for them because of the added hardship they create for the society.

Life is already hard in that region so trying to encourage them to get deeper into drugs ... No, no sympathy whatsoever if they (traffickers) know what they are doing.

The only sad case are the mules who are tricked into doing the dirty jobs for others then get caught and face execution.

A warning to all you liberal minded people. Do Not deal with drugs in that region. You will be executed. You have been warned.

If you want to get high then go to other part of the world where people are liberal and illegal drugs are not an issue.

edit:

Why is everyone getting up in arms about the Indonesian executions ?

Yes, why? None of their business really. Are they on crack?

I'd have shot them for stupidity regardless! 😆

I bought some grass in Bali. Between the lad taking the money and the stuff coming back was about the most nervous I have ever been.

The first thing I saw when I disembarked in Denpasar was a sign saying
"For drugs traffickers, the death penalty"

Scary shit.

Caveat emptor.

seosamh77 - Member
I'd have shot them for stupidity regardless!

Actually they got off lightly with a bullet to their hearts.

Others (esp parents) would have to see their children suffer from drug addiction in front of them and by the time their children stop the habit they are already damaged. The parents will have to live the rest of their lives worrying and constantly having to care for them. That is a life time punishment not for one person but the entire family.

A bullet to their hearts is considered lenient and they (traffickers) can leave this world without having to worry about money anymore.

gofasterstripes - Member

I bought some grass in Bali. Between the lad taking the money and the stuff coming back was about the most nervous I have ever been.

Yes, you might smoke some there but if they want to be tough with you they can.

Partly because it became political, Indonesia has paid to get its citizens off death row in other countries before. There was a refusal to consider clemency even though it was legally required.

Wasn't Indonesia opposed to the 1961 single convention on narcotic drugs? Before then did it implement the death penalty, or is it a result of US war on drugs and pressure on producing countries?

Murdering a convicted criminal is still murder and there are research journals indicating the death sentence is not deterrent apparently! 😕

There has been evidence of reform.

Modern world countries should lock people up/protect the public/therapy/correction. But costs money.

Yes respect state laws/common sense/pay the price/reform vs. murder topic debate.

How many drug smugglers in UK jails? I suspect lots.

How many in indo jails slightly less than there was once these are dead, bit I imagine less than the UK.

UK. Population 70million
INDO pop 249 million

Which policy is working better?

Frankenstein - Member

Murdering a convicted criminal is still murder and there are research journals indicating the death sentence is not deterrent apparently!

There has been evidence of reform.

It's not murder ... it's execution ...

Nobody cares about your journals in those countries ... 🙄

You traffic drugs you get capital punishment.

Reform? From Western perspective? 😯

It's not murder ... it's execution ...

Reform? From Western perspective?

One of the other issues is the Australian Federal Police had enough information to stop/arrest them and prosecute them in Australia instead they tipped off the Indonesians thus giving their own citizens the death penalty.

mikewsmith - Member

It's not murder ... it's execution ...

No it's murder, it's killing a human being.

It's state sanctioned so that's execution but as usual you can twist your definition if you wish. Indonesia disagrees with you.

Considering the corruption and hypocrisy in Indonesia then some reform would be good.

Corruption and hypocrisy? They have their own way to deal with them so there is no need for the west to "educate" them I am afraid.

One of the other issues is the Australian Federal Police had enough information to stop/arrest them and prosecute them in Australia instead they tipped off the Indonesians thus giving their own citizens the death penalty.

Well, perhaps the Australian Federal Police is right in their approach considering the mess they have to deal with in Australia if they landed.

Well, perhaps the Australian Federal Police is right in their approach considering the mess they have to deal with in Australia if they landed.

Corruption and hypocrisy? They have their own way to deal with them so there is no need for the west to "educate" them I am afraid.

As for hypocrisy
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/indon-spends-big-to-save-deathrow-citizens/story-fn3dxiwe-1227208124461

"The Indonesia government spends millions of dollars to hire lawyers and in some cases, in Saudi Arabia, pay blood money where it is permitted under Islamic legal systems to relatives of the murder victim to enable sentences to be commuted," Professor Tim Lindsey says.

mikewsmith - Member
...One of the other issues is the Australian Federal Police had enough information to stop/arrest them and prosecute them in Australia instead they tipped off the Indonesians thus giving their own citizens the death penalty.

It's worse than that.

Didn't the father of one of them tip off the Australian Federal Police so they could be stopped before leaving the country?

The AFP then decided to allow them to proceed knowing what would happen because they then tipped off the Indonesians. All from the father's info - hate to think what he's feeling right now.

I can't imagine many Aussies risking police intervention for their wayward druggy kids any more.

Chewkw, of all the people on here I'm truly surprised that you would defend the corruption that is endemic in Indonesia.

Let's also not forget that Indonesia is knee deep in state sponsored murder, this is a country where people 'disappered' as a matter of routine within the last couple of decades. The very fact that the President has chosen to completely discount any clemency (which is supposedly taken on a case by case basis) speaks volumes.

Execution is worse than murder. There's no heat of the moment, you calmly plan someone's death and then in the cold light of day you end their life. If that's not ****ing horrific I don't know what is.

It doesn't work as a deterrent, so it's pointless. Especially as they wet reformed and contrite. Every execution I hear about makes my blood run just as cold, this is no exception. Just have a listen of the mother screaming "please don't kill my son!"

Yes I know people ate murdered brutally every day, but this is a government doing it calm as you like as part of a normal working day.. Not some thug on a back street.

I think the OP was more interested in why the UK media are now looking at this story from the side of the [i]poor, defenceless smugglers[/i]. The general media slant is now one of sympathy for the plight of the executed convicts and their families but there are real victims out there. They are the stupid individuals that consume this junk.
There seem to be a lot of people that think illegal narcotics are acceptable and love to get on the case of big bad government whilst forgetting every one involved is breaking the law and sometimes in countries that have the death penalty.
End of Katie Hopkins style post.

I'm not sure on the UK side of things (being down here in Oz) but there are a lot of issues up in the air here.

As pointed out above
The AFP had the chance to stop/arrest/prosecute the individuals or to then follow and take out the higher up's in the organisation. Probably a much better outcome then executing some of the low ranking parts of a criminal organisation.

The new government in Indonesia decided not to review the cases (legally required to) and brushed them aside. This is a new government that is trying to find it's feet and establish itself. This became a political issue not about the individuals.

The 2 smugglers went through a series of programs in prison and have been described as model inmates and great examples of rehabilitation. To the point where they met most if not all of the grounds for clemency that the Indonesian government set out.

Capital Punishment doesn't really work, hows the murder rate in the US going?
Killing somebody in cold blood has no justification, to ignore all of the aspects of the case and make a political decision is one of the worst things in the world. To ignore your own set out procedures means that really if you are involved in the judicial system then the outcomes can be at the political whim of the rulers.

It took them up to 27 minutes to die. Grim.

I think the OP was more interested in why the UK media are now looking at this story from the side of the poor, defenceless smugglers.

I think the OP is more interested in contradicting himself with a view to the likely response. For example he suggests that the only alternative to the death sentence is "a slap on the wrist" with this comment :

[i]"If your caught with a lot of hard drugs in a country that has the death penalty what do you expect a slap on the wrist ?"[/i]

After claiming that he is opposed to the death sentence. I'm assuming that he doesn't consider a slap on the wrist to be an appropriate punishment.

And it's not just the UK media who are the side of the poor defenceless smugglers, the UN and the EU are also on the side of the poor defenceless smugglers having both condemned the executions.

Seems to work fine as a deterrent they certainly wont be doing it again.

Seems to work fine as a deterrent

It took them up to 27 minutes to die. Grim.

Certainly grim, but not true. Death was pronounced 27 minutes after they were shot but that's not the same thing. Being shot in the heart 3 times by high calibre bullets is almost instantaneous, with a coup de grace available immediately if there are still signs of life. Reportedly none were needed here.

I'm dead against the death penalty, but if it has to exist, firing squad or decapitation, are the two methods that I think should be used. Because if countries or states are prepared to sanction the murder of their citizens, then that's what it should look like; cold blooded, horrific, violent murder of a person as an act of revenge and punishment.

Others will disagree, saying there are more humane or civilised methods. Humane?!? Civilised?! For who? For the people administering or watching maybe. Particularly in the case of now discredited lethal injection, administering a paralytic to prevent any signs of life, while the other drugs may be causing unconscionable pain. At least the witnesses don't have to see a man bleed or smoke and burn. The US could have authorised OD of barbiturates like we use every day to euthanize our pets, but didn't for two reasons. One, they don't treat humans 'like animals'; two because as anyone that has seen a pet put to sleep, often there is involuntary muscle twitching and even defecation. And we wouldn't want witnesses to see that either.

So, if you're going to do it, find a quick, painless as possible method, but don't pretend it's a medical procedure because it isn't. It's murder and should look like it.

[Incidentally some US states are now legislating for nitrogen asphyxia as a method, similar to a suicide exit bag. Which might well be 'better' for the convict - maybe 15s of increasing lightheadedness passing to unconscious but again might be uncomfortable for the witness if the convict struggles for the last few seconds of life and tries to hold breath, etc.]

You don't have to be a drug smuggler to get executed by the Indonesians. Just protest about them stealing your land.

[img] ?oh=b8bdf5e3df9d5a444eb9b090645fecea&oe=55DFEDDC[/img]

I'm no supporter of the death penalty but other cultures have their own views and criminal justice systems. Judging them by our own standards will always cause controversy. And we are not making a real success in the war against drugs with our Western approach either.

I regret their deaths but for most of them they knew what they were doing and the risks. If they chose to run the risks I don't think we can make too much fuss on their behalf.

Horrifying for their families. Maybe that aspect should be highlighted as a greater deterrent.

The penalty for drug smuggling and related offenses in Indonesia is the death penalty. Drugs are a major problem particularly in Bali. Those concerned knew the risks and penalties when they committed the offenses. I do think many "westerners" don't take them seriously as they assume they will be reprieved.

@mike the chart has little value as you don't know how high the murder rates would be without the death penalty, the various States in the US vary hugely in terms of crime

Tony Abbotts main concern seemed to be they had been on death row for 10 years and that was too long. I suppose they could have been executed sooner then ?

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/30/brazilian-executed-by-indonesia-was-hearing-voices-all-the-time ]Harrowing stuff[/url]

There's no heat of the moment, you calmly plan someone's death and then in the cold light of day you end their life. If that's not **** horrific I don't know what is.

Rodrigo Gularte, 42, was shot dead alongside seven others, including four Nigerians, two Australians and an Indonesian, for smuggling cocaine [b]into[/b] Indonesia in 2004.

WTF????

I have long since stopped worrying about Tony Abbots concerns...

The Australians had ways and means to prevent the drug smuggling but didn't.

The chart is maybe not with all the facts but it does show that consistently the states with the death penalty has a higher murder rate, regardless of the crime rate if the death penalty was effective it should have dropped below the other states.

Regardless of putting a sign up saying death for doing something does not make the death penalty right.

One of the people due to be executed got a last minute reprieve when her native country informed the Indonesian government that they had someone who had admitted they had planted drugs on the alleged smuggler. Now whether this is true or not there is the possibility that if they hadn't found this out in time an innocent person would now be dead from execution.

Doesn't seem right to me?

Personally I think you should only support the death penalty if you would be prepared to carry it out personally. And I know for a fact that not many people could bring themselves to do it. Whether there was a chance they were firing blank rounds or not.

Doctors had diagnosed the Brazilian with paranoid schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. A second diagnosis, commissioned by Indonesia’s attorney general, has not been made public.

Father Charlie Burrows, a priest who ministers to prisoners in Cilacap, said he had tried in vain to explain to Gularte for three days that he was about to be killed.

“He was hearing voices all the time,” Burrows told Irish radio. “I talked to him for about an hour and a half, trying to prepare him for the execution. I said to him, ‘I’m 72 years old, I’ll be heading to heaven in the near future, so you find out where my house is and prepare a garden for me.’

“But when they took [the prisoners] out of the cells … and when they put these bloody chains on them, he said to me, ‘Am I being executed?’ ” Burrows said.

“I said, ‘Yes, I thought I explained that you.’ He didn’t get excited – he’s a quiet sort of a guy – but he said, ‘This is not right.’

“He’s lost because he’s a schizophrenic. He asked if there was a sniper outside ready to shoot him, and I said no, and whether somebody would shoot him in the car, and I said no,” Burrows said.

After Gularte was strapped to a wooden plank, Burrows was permitted to see him again: “He said, ‘This is not right, I made one small mistake, and I shouldn’t have to die for it.’ So he was annoyed more than anything else, because he’s a soft-spoken, quiet and sensitive man.”

I'm totally against the death penalty. It is barbaric, and puts us back to the middle ages.

However, if like me you don't agree with the death penalty, maybe you shouldn't smuggle drugs into/out of countries who will tie you to a stake and shoot you if you are caught?

I dread to think how much UK taxpayers money is going to be spent trying to secure the release of that stupid woman currently in the same jail.

Anyway, is the Passat fixed?

However, if like me you don't agree with the death penalty, maybe you shouldn't smuggle drugs into/out of countries who will tie you to a stake and shoot you if you are caught?

That's just a version of the argument that what happens in other countries isn't any of our business. By the same argument we shouldn't be worried about human rights abuses in China, oppression of women in Saudi, police shootings in the US, or the Nepal earthquake.

The death penalty is barbaric, no matter where it is or what the criminal did.

+1 totally against capital punishment for moral reasons - although the murder (etc) rates in countries that have also make me pretty certain that it doesn't work (other than from a revenge/ideology perspective).

But the reason why it's in the media? Foreigners involved.

Was there not something about the appeals procedure not being completed and a hint of corruption?

bencooper - Member

However, if like me you don't agree with the death penalty, maybe you shouldn't smuggle drugs into/out of countries who will tie you to a stake and shoot you if you are caught?

That's just a version of the argument that what happens in other countries isn't any of our business. By the same argument we shouldn't be worried about human rights abuses in China, oppression of women in Saudi, police shootings in the US, or the Nepal earthquake.

The death penalty is barbaric, no matter where it is or what the criminal did.

Not really.
I think our Government should be putting pressure on those countries who still use the death penalty, to try and get it stopped.
However, it is a bit difficult while we are schmoozing up to the Saudis/Americans/Chinese.
In the meantime, Greedy and stupid drug smugglers are just exasperating the situation and playing right into the hands of these Governments who do still execute people.

jambo:

@mike the chart has little value as you don't know how high the murder rates would be without the death penalty, the various States in the US vary hugely in terms of crime

but we should not raise tax rates on rich people, because it didn't work in France. Riiiiiight.

wanmankylung - Member

Was there not something about the appeals procedure not being completed and a hint of corruption?

Posted 23 minutes ago #Report-Post

The appeals process had not been exhausted,but why would they execute a couple of Aussies if corruption was involved? That smacks of biting the hand that feeds.

However, if like me you don't agree with the death penalty, maybe you shouldn't smuggle drugs into/out of countries who will tie you to a stake and shoot you if you are caught?

The two things are not remotely connected. One is about a moral principle, and the other is about an individual risk assessment. You shouldn't smuggle drugs (obviously), but nor should you, or anyone, be murdered by the state.

Quirrel - Member

How many drug smugglers in UK jails? I suspect lots.

How many in indo jails slightly less than there was once these are dead, bit I imagine less than the UK.

UK. Population 70million
INDO pop 249 million

Which policy is working better?

Probably Holland's, or Portugal's - the reasoning behind their barbaric stance on drugs is that around 30 people a day die because of illegal drugs in Indonesia.

History teaches anyone who cares to read it that prohibition doesn't work and has never worked.

Treatment of addicts and education to the dangers of some drugs works, trying to act as a nanny state telling people (who's interests they're supposed to look after, not impose their own) what they can and can't do doesn't.

The prisoners were incredibly stupid to get involved with drug trafficking in Indonesia, although the Death Penalty for it was actually suspended when they committed their crime (I might be out on dates) - but it doesn't excuse the state murder of them.

@mike the chart has little value as you don't know how high the murder rates would be without the death penalty,

the various States in the US vary hugely in terms of crime

Out of interest what would you consider to be a reasonable comparison then in trying to work out if the death penalty was an effective deterrent if not comparing states with the death penalty and states without the death penalty and their murder rates per 100,000 occupant....go on indulge me.

I'm glad to see the nice types outnumber the nasties by a decent proportion on here.

It takes a special kind of stupid to smuggle drugs from a prosperous country of opportunity where personal development is down to the individual, to a third world country that actively uses the death penalty as punishment for the said activity.

Whether you agree with the penalty or not is a mute point, that was the punishment laid out before them, they took a calculated risk in the name of greed and and personal gain, they lost.

The argument surrounding the use of the death penalty is strangely a separate argument in this case, it is a larger discussion that shouldn't be held in light of a couple of foreigners receiving the punishment they knew they may receive.

We are such a naïve bunch in these prosperous lands, so I wouldn't get outraged when the issue pops up again in the near future.

There's one way of ensuring the death penalty in Indonesia doesn't become news in western lands again, of course that's down to people outside of Indonesia engaging their brains.

I'm not usually interested in 'gory details' but one thing I took from reading about it was the method - they were taken to a jungle clearing to be shot, tied to a cross and 12 police all fired at once - only 3 of them actually had live rounds to ensure no one knew who killed them, I don't want to split hairs - but I believe in the US (where one state has just put firing squad back on the menu) only one of the shooters gets a blank - anyway I assume 3 is 'enough'.

In the end 8 of them were killed that night, so where there 96 Police all huddled in there, or just 12 - did all the victims have to witness their friends being killed one at a time? I believe they all refused blindfolds... it's horrible really.

Once again this comes down to what punishment is really for.

Is it fair to kill someone for making a mistake? When they realise that mistake? Many of our decisions are not made at all rationally. That's why people still commit crimes that have severe penalties.

I think the OP was more interested in why the UK media are now looking at this story from the side of the poor, defenceless smugglers. The general media slant is now one of sympathy for the plight of the executed convicts and their families but there are real victims out there. They are the stupid individuals that consume this junk.

I think two wrongs don't make a right.

mute point

moot point 👿

Well I guess people are up in arms because capital punishment is barbaric - wherever it is used. It's not just Indonesia is it?

But if that is the law in a particular country there are two options.
1. Don't go.
2. Don't smuggle drugs.

I would like some special corner of hell reserved especially for anyone involved in the whole process of getting people hooked on drugs. But I'm an atheist so I know that's a non starter.

But if that is the law in a particular country there are two options.

P-Jay - Member

I'm not usually interested in 'gory details' but one thing I took from reading about it was the method - they were taken to a jungle clearing to be shot, tied to a cross and 12 police all fired at once - only 3 of them actually had live rounds to ensure no one knew who killed them, I don't want to split hairs - but I believe in the US (where one state has just put firing squad back on the menu) only one of the shooters gets a blank - anyway I assume 3 is 'enough'.

The difference between firing blanks and live rounds is distinct. I guess the idea of the possibility of the blank is to make it easier for the executioner to pull the trigger. It "might" be blank.

moot point

And it's far from a moot point. It IS the point.

These are soldiers. They're trained to take orders and to kill, and are particularly selected so that they won't hesitate. But you're right, the difference in 'feel' between a blank and the recoil of a live round would I suspect leave you in no doubt whether you were the killer.

moot point

Indeed, I would like to blame my phones autocorrect but it was simply lost in the flow of the overall shite being written.

You guys think too much then try to show compassion for all the wrong twisted reasons as usual.

I always wonder why there is such a big drug problem in Hong Kong/China 200+ years ago.

Any of you lot have drug pushing ancestors that benefited from those opium pushing good time in China?

🙄

edit: I disagree with the killing in Papua because those are local native people fighting to gain independent like Scotland ... they are Not drug pushing scums.

The reason I am against the death penalty is that miscarriages of justice are then irreversible. I know that imprisoning an innocent person is also irreversible in terms of the time lost, but at least they would still be alive to see their vindication (if it came).

[b]£500m drugs bust in North Sea 'UK's biggest ever'[/b]

If the above landed I wonder how many parents will have to live in despair all their lives only to see their children lost and damaged in front of their eyes with nothing they can do at all.

If those are pure coke then that £500m will easily get more than double that ...

Imagine they are caught in Indonesia ... 308 or 5.56?

I would go 308.

What else do you want to execute people for chewkw?

Compassion? How about process? The Indonesians set out a route to clemency but they ignored it as the new bloke needs to measure his cock in the international stage. Not as if these blokes had actually found a better path in prison, one of those cases where prison actually seemed to have worked so they executed them. Great example.

the new bloke needs to measure his cock in the international stage.

More on the domestic stage.

bit of both really, I think he wants a metric and imperial measurement

mikewsmith - Member
What else do you want to execute people for chewkw?

This is a straight forward case as they got kilos of drugs.

Others might need to be assessed case by case basis but if they are heinous crimes then 308 it is.

The Indonesians set out a route to clemency but they ignored it as the new bloke needs to measure his cock in the international stage.

He is a nice humble bloke who try to make his country a better place for themselves.

International stage ... ya right ...

I bought some grass in Bali. Between the lad taking the money and the stuff coming back was about the most nervous I have ever been.

....

Scary shit.

Yet you still did it. So it isn't a great deterent.

If the incentive is not getting off your box, but a few million quid, then a death penalty or not is not going to deter anyone who is considering it.

But if they want to shoot crims, then why not? It's the law in that country so keep your nose out if you don't like it.

He is a nice humble bloke who try to make his country a better place for themselves.

International stage ... ya right ...

As for the international stage it's the 4th most populated country, they are expanding and building to be one of the major regional powers potentially, they are currently building infrastructure with unconditional loans. They are moving up the food chain in SE Asia.

Yes he needs to sort out some internal perception and look strong but he is also making sure he does not give in to any other regional leaders. All at the same time when they pay blood money to get their own citizens off death row.

Yes, there is corruption but that is up to their own people to sort them out. They are trying to change in their own time and suit their own way of living.

All at the same time when they pay blood money to get their own citizens off death row.

Not much different in the enlightened west is it? You get the justice you can afford. Instead of a direct payment to open the door you get a better lawyer in a sharp suit.

If you are poor you are going down. Or in the US the death penalty is immediate depending on the colour of your skin.

Or in the US the death penalty is immediate depending on the colour of your skin.

What era are you living in ? 1970 something ?

Jeez mate

Have you not be reading the news lately?

Its pretty obvious what he is referring to

What era are you living in ? 1970 something

Much of he US is much more backward than you think on these things. Remember, slavery was only banned in mississipi in 2013. It takes generations for the views of the "South" to be diluted to a state of acceptance.

unfitgeezer - Member
Or in the US the death penalty is immediate depending on the colour of your skin.
What era are you living in ? 1970 something ?

Jeez mate

Junkyard - lazarus
Have you not be reading the news lately?

Its pretty obvious what he is referring to

Given who black people are treated in th US by police, does Obama still deserve his Nobel Peace Prize?

wanmankylung - Member

Given who black people are treated in th US by police, does Obama still deserve his Nobel Peace Prize?

What is his Nobel Peace Prize for?
What has he done this time?

😯

I'm pretty liberal by all accounts, and I'm not gonna get drawn into the U.S. debate but my view on the Indonesian thing is the simple underclass motto 'don't do the crime if you can't do the time'

A good friend of mine served 7 years in the notorious Japanese prison system for drugs offences.. they have an abysmal human rights record and the time he spent there was incredibly harsh..
He's a reformed character these days

I'm pretty liberal by all accounts, and I'm not gonna get drawn into the U.S. debate but my view on the Indonesian thing is the simple underclass motto 'don't do the crime if you can't do the time'

Well I didn't expect that from you, Yunki!

In Baltimore, anyway.

Quite an interesting interview re policing in Baltimore here;

[url= http://www.vice.com/read/david-simon-talks-about-where-the-baltimore-police-went-wrong-429?fb_action_ids=10153000363768323&fb_action_types=og.shares ]David Simon[/url]

Isn't the death penalty in the U.S. Proving more expensive than just locking folk up for the remainder of their natural lives?

Genuine question, will try and dig out where I read that.

Edit. Not quite http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost