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All the RSPB are asking is to keep a cat inside – dawn and dusk for a few months of the year.
As far as I can see the RSPB aren't asking all cat owners to keep their cats inside, just the ones that are prolific hunters. According to the RSPB website:
"Cats are individuals - their behaviour varies widely. Some will be prolific hunters, some may catch nothing at all".
I have had approximately 10 cats throughout my life and only one or two could have been described as hunters, and none at all hunted beyond middle age. Although moths and large houseflies did often provide an enduring fascination.
Our 2 indoor cats catch a mouse pretty much weekly....which is quite the reflection on our house!
Having read some stuff about humane traps not been all that humane when you take into account the long term prospects of the little critters when you turf them out far away from their usual home, I'm in two minds what's the worst fait.
We have 2 cats. One is a lazy, fat moggy who barely moves, one is a all 4 horsemen of the apocalypse if you're small and furry. You can tell he's a hunter just from looking at him. He looks like a mini-panther.
Its not really surprising as he was found feral and had to fend for himself, so I suppose its just instinctive to him
To my knowledge though, he's never hunted birds. He decimates the local rodent population (our house has open woodland behind it so theres plenty to decimate). We know this because he leaves their dismembered remains by the back door as gifts for us in the morning. On his most prolific night there were 4 dead rats lined up waiting for me on the step. Thanks for that Nelson. Theres never been any birds though.
Like booze and many other things that have been the norm for centuries, if we didn't have them and their introduction to society was proposed, it would likely not be justifiable in current times. But the cat is out of the bag and there is probably no going back.
RSPB do seem to have changed their stance on cats recently. Not long ago they were saying that cats mostly take the old and sick birds not making much of an effect on the general population, certainly not as much as habitat loss etc
27 million is about 2.5 per cat.
As Ernie says though, I doubt that this is an even distribution. My experience matches his, I've had (outdoors-going) cats on and off for 25 years or more and I'm struggling to recall any avian presents. Something got mullered in our yard a couple of months back by someone else's cat though.
My old girl couldn't catch a cold, she's sit in the window chirruping with a tail like a bog brush, "ooh, if I could just get out there..." so I'd let her out and she'd jump up on the other side of the window with complete bravado failure screaming "LET ME IN, THERE'S BIRDS OUT HERE!!"
Having read some stuff about humane traps not been all that humane when you take into account the long term prospects of the little critters when you turf them out far away from their usual home, I’m in two minds what’s the worst fait.
Yeah, this has been discussed a few times before on STW's pest control threads. I'm a massive wuss yet I'm unconvinced about the wisdom in humane traps. You catch a mouse alive and, well, congratulations, you have a live mouse, now what? They can apparently 'home' over considerable distances and as you say they're potentially more vulnerable to predators.
At least cat's aren't killing people on a regular basis (unless it's a proper big one).
Our 2 indoor cats catch a mouse pretty much weekly…
That must be one hell of a mouse.
When our cat died (was run over which was an absolutely horrible experience finding her lying in the gutter) the bird life in our family garden doubled.
The same with next door's cat, when it got put down the bird life more than doubled in our own garden.
I'm an RSPB volunteer and 'most' cats will kill birds, many of these are fledglings, at this time of the year.
Our old family cat caught and killed mostly mice but she did bring home the odd bird.
Did the bird life double because of the absence of killing or the absence of them being frightened off?
I’m an RSPB volunteer and ‘most’ cats will kill birds,
So have you got a link to the RSPB appeal asking for all cat owners to keep their cats indoors dusk and dawn?
And also a link where the RSPB claim that 'most' cats will kill birds please, other than if a cat is locked in a small room with a bird obviously.
My quick search could find nothing other than the RSPB claiming that not all cats hunt.
Sorry to hear the devastating affect your cat had on the local bird population until its early death btw.
Were you not aware until your cat got run over?
I knew they were murdering little buggers but never knew to what extent.
Millions!!! 🤯
Best humane prevention we have found is to spray the local cats with a water whenever we see them in the garden.
They tend to give us a wide berth these days.
We should be thanking them! Alfred Hitchcock gave us ample warning of what would happen without all the cats...
The RSPB lists the main reasons for the decline in bird populations in the UK here, it doesn't seem to mention cat predation :
Why are they declining?
Extensive research has shown that these declines are caused primarily by changes in agriculture.
1. Increased efficiency
This has led to:
grubbing up of hedgerows to create larger fields
ploughing up closer to the edge of the field to increase the planted area
drainage to dry out damper areas and remove wet flushes from others, all to increase production
2. Changes in cropping practices
This had led to:
shift from spring to autumn sown cereals
as soon as one crop is harvested, next one goes in - the land has no time to rest and lie fallow
3. Specialisation of farms and regions to either arable or livestock production
This has resulted in loss of the habitat diversity that many birds need to survive.
4. Increase in the use of farm chemicals – fertilisers and pesticides
5. Increased efficiency in grain and animal feed storage - exclusion of wild birds from cattle feeding stations
6. Changes in farm buildings
Replacing old buildings with modern ones excludes nesting birds and bats.
very long running study on bird decline: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2216573120
(tldr, intensive agricuture)
Cats primarily take “the doomed surplus”: weak or injured birds likely to die anyway. In 2008, Baker led a study in Bristol showing that birds killed by cats on average had less fat and muscle than birds killed by collisions with windows. link to study here: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1474-919X.2008.00836.x
Cats primarily take “the doomed surplus”: weak or injured birds likely to die anyway.
So cat predation plays an important role in keeping bird populations healthy and strong then?
When our cat died...the bird life in our family garden doubled.
That could easily be the presence of the cat making the birds go elsewhere, rather than it killing them.
Ernie - you are welcome anytime to come to our local RSPB group meetings and /or outings. We have experts from all walks of life. These experts speak on behalf of nature, wildlife and mostly bird life. This is where I get my information from and also what I have witnessed in my long life. Cats not only kill old, infirm or knackered birds, they kill fledglings.
I love cats, but at the moment there are too many of them and not enough wildlife imo.
Thanks for the invitation Bunnyhop but surely you don't need to go to RSPB meetings and speak directly to their experts to find out their advice?
Have you got a link which mentions this RSPB advice that all cats should be kept in at dawn and dusk? You finding out directly at meetings and then passing the information on through social media doesn't seem like an effective way to share important information.
And why no reference to cats on this RSPB link?
So cat predation plays an important role in keeping bird populations healthy and strong then?
Of course it is, it is a completely natural process played over since the dawn of time and around the world.
Why is spending a fortune on a MTb acceptable in the days of poverty and why is it ok to pollute the world with the manufacture of all these resources plus the travel to ride thing? Ride where there are no birdies to scare. New bike link near the woods near me. First time for years I have seen no Woodcock there. Hmmm
Because most people don't care a toss and is it really that important with a population growth completely beyond control?
Wish my cat would have those bloody pigeons that are shredding my attempts to avoid buying veg. Blasted neighbours object to me shooting them as well .
Cats protection league recommends to keep cats in at night.
https://www.cats.org.uk/northherts/feature-pages/should-cats-be-kept-in-at-night
But for the cats health and wellbeing 🤦♂️
ernie - I'm walking away now. You have your information, I have mine, which as a volunteer may not be privvy to the general public.
There are worse things to think about atm.
Goodnight.
I've always thought that owning a cat and letting it roam free in an urban area to be antisocial.
As much as I like cats and their company (but don't own one) they really are manipulating and quite creepy.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/news-blog/the-manipulative-meow-cats-learn-to-2009-07-13/
Imagine imitating human babies in order to trick their owners into looking after them like a baby. Creepy.
Of course it is, it is a completely natural process played over since the dawn of time and around the world.
The only problem is that human interference has resulted, among many other things, to large populations of potential predators which wouldn't be sustainable in a natural environment.
So there is a responsibility to minimise their impact on the environment, although it is good to hear that where losses due to predation do occur that the weakest, sickest, etc, are the most likely losses.
The problem with cats is that part of the reason for their highly successful relationship with humans, over thousands of years, is because humans have benefited so much from their killing instincts.
In contrast the killing instincts of dogs was generally bred out of them for them to be useful to humans. I guess with time killing instincts in cats will eventually slowly reduce as it no longer becomes vital to their genes being passed on.
I don't know when catfood first appeared but it can't have been that long ago, and up to that point even cats cohabitating with humans would have had to supplement their diet.
which as a volunteer may not be privvy to the general public.
Seems unlikely they would share such polarising information only with volunteers if it was based on anything more than opinion.
they really are manipulating and quite creepy
Not sure what this means? I've never had a cat that didn't just sleep, play, wander about outside, play with a few toys, sit on your lap and miaow when it was hungry. I can't make any of that into manipulation and creepiness.
population growth completely beyond control
If you're talking about humans, I think you are quite wrong.
I love cats, but at the moment there are too many of them and not enough wildlife imo.
They do kill fledgelings, but is that not natural? Serious question. For bird population to be steady, a pair of birds needs only do have two chicks survive into adulthood. However if they live say three years and have four or five clutches of four eggs each then that's what, 10-15 chicks that need to die for every pair, no? Out in the countryside, there are very few cats per square mile but far more birds; so I suspect that habitat and food loss is probably a far bigger cause of bird loss.
Of course, right now we need to grow populations from low levels so we need more of those chicks to survive.
which as a volunteer may not be privvy to the general public.
Meow 😆
Imagine imitating human babies in order to trick their owners into looking after them like a baby. Creepy.
You're going to absolutely shit your bed when you hear about evolution.
Meanwhile, a study no-one will read:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/brv.12974
Half of all species on Earth are en route to extinction. Those kittens must be right bastards.
I’ve just let the killing machine out for the night
#prayfortherodents
Half of all species on Earth are en route to extinction
If humans were kept indoors between dusk and dawn it might help.
Or failing that a large scale neutering programme.
It might cut down their noisy fighting/wars too.
I’ve just let the killing machine out for the night
#prayfortherodents
I'm sure Mrs Binners won't be out for too long.
More importantly, does anyone think hat ownership is okay?
I consider it more of a 'partnership'.
You do not 'own' a cat. If a cat want's to stay with you it will. If they get a better offer then bye-bye!
Birds eat birds, not always naughty cats.
We had a kite repeatedly diving into the drive, when we checked there was a pile of seagull bits. Possibly killed by a cat first though 🙂
But we have air battles above the garden with birds being attached in flight by the kites.
Not a single bit of cat shit in our garden and we have three cats :), useless at chasing birds as all the grass seed disappears.
I still can't believe no one has done any research into cats and why/ how they learned to live alongside humans.
Blame bread eaters.
My cat is an indoor cat who I take out on supervised outdoor visits and walks with a little harness and it’s impossibly cute. Cats are awesome!
If you’re concerned about bird populations might I suggest focusing your complaints on habitat loss instead?
My garden is regularly visited by the two cats from the flat opposite my garden, which they escape from through an open window, and also by any one of the three or four from a couple of houses about four houses down the road. I’m currently getting anywhere up to eighteen or twenty fledgling starlings, a recently fledged blackbird and the adults, plus there’s the sparrows and the blue tits, and this morning I found a lot of feathers from a pigeon that had obviously been attacked by a cat. This evening I startled a cat walking past my back door, and as for the shit they leave in my garden, and even in the large square pot that my apple tree is in…! Although not any more, since I put a load of clippings from my gorse bush around the top of the pot, there’s been no sign of cats scraping up the mulch and leaving stinking shits in it. 😈
Indoor cat owners how do you deal with preventing outside access for your cats and allowing outside access for humans? Is it a real ballache going in and out of your gardens or front doors for you and your visitors?
burntembers
Full Member
Indoor cat owners how do you deal with preventing outside access for your cats and allowing outside access for humans? Is it a real ballache going in and out of your gardens or front doors for you and your visitors
we have in the past had 2 house cats to stay whilst the owners were away. One would only go outside if a human was in the garden too and go inside to use the litter tray.
The other showed no interest in going outdoors, liked our conservatory though.
He was a rescue that had been forced to live outside in a shed when the elderly owner could no longer cope. He is actually a very pushy/over affectionate and noisy deaf Burmese.
I imagine it’s just their character and if a cat wants to go out, it will.
Our cat had a big cut on his back leg when he was a big kitten/teenager. He had a huge bandage on the leg and we had to keep him in so all downstairs windows were shut as was his car door.
We came home to find him on the front door step, with no bandage on, after leaving a bedroom window open a tiny crack. Straight down drop onto the pavement.
I have no idea how you keep a house cat in!
Indoor cat owners how do you deal with preventing outside access for your cats and allowing outside access for humans? Is it a real ballache going in and out of your gardens or front doors for you and your visitors?
It is a bit. Our first cat lived to nearly 20. In her first 14 years or so she was a real roamer then a couple of years (after she became deaf and I think she realised she was vulnerable) of sticking to the patio and walking around the garden with us. Then when very frail and old she enjoyed being carried out and sitting on the bench with us.
The current 2 muppets are still 3 - came from the SSPCA as indoor cats. We are rural but on a road that gets occasional cars doing 60 - kind of the worst possible scenario for a cat getting hit. So for that reason (and the inevitable culling of the local small critter population) they are going to remain indoor cats. They don't seem to actually want to go out particularly but are stupidly fast and impulsive - if they went for it there would be no catching them. So we live with doors and windows closed....which is a pita. Just this morning I've been shopping for some midge mesh and binding material to make a frame for the conservatory door.
In a crazy cat lady man way I'm considering building them a run/extension thing.
I feel very conflicted about indoor cats - our house is not small so they have lots of space to run around but it feels unnatural. But then I quite like the local wildlife not being molested by two natural born killers too.
Interesting thanks all, unsurprisingly it seems like all cats are different!
We have a indoor cat but not really by choice. When she left our garden for the first time she disappeared.
After three days of putting up posters, knocking on doors and searchs she was found down a road storm drain in a very sorry state. She eventually recovered well but her personality had changed from confident cat to very timid flighty kitty who is scared of any loud noise and strangers.
Majority vote by family was she should become an indoor cat.
After a year if I'm honest there are still times when I think denying her total freedom seems a bit cruel.
I have made her a back porch sized catio so she has fresh air and can feel the sun, wind and rain. She is spoiled rotten with affection and is played with regularly though, so life's not all bad for her.
We have been pretty strict about making sure she has no outside access other than catio (tried harness and lead, she hated it!).
We were pretty well set up for this anyway due to our adult daughter who needs constant 1:1
Agree it is sometimes a PITA though having to ensure certain doors are always shut before opening others and only having windows open a sliver, so was interested to hear other's experiences of having indoor cats.
catio
There is a word for them! Googles.....wow.....I won't be inventing something new then!
Expect a "what design for a catio" thread coming to a forum near here very soon!
We have an extensive catio/cat run for our cats - accessed by the side window in the conservatory, down the length of the garden by the fence, under the arbour, then up and alond the rear fence (we've a field behind us). They also have a large 3x2x2m 'chicken/animal' enclosure over the fence with lts of climbing frames inside (decking planks).
Front door has porch, so it's open one and shut the other, except our ginger ninja will sometimes run past us - all he then does is run round the front garden meowing loudly, then you rattle the treats and he comes back. We're not that close to a main road, but one managed to get that far and got killed, so the others have been indoor - 3 pedigree and a ginger rescue.
Indoor cat owners how do you deal with preventing outside access for your cats and allowing outside access for humans? Is it a real ballache going in and out of your gardens or front doors for you and your visitors?
Carefully.
The two 'kittens' are about two and a half now and have never known anything different. They are at best mildly curious. The older girl we essentially grounded for safety reasons but she can be a door darter.
You get into a mindset though. Going out, you shoulder-check for coiled springs; coming home you open the door slowly rather than hoofing it wide open. When I visit (say) my mum's it almost feels weird not having to do that.
After a year if I’m honest there are still times when I think denying her total freedom seems a bit cruel.
It's tricky. Mollie used to be an outdoor cat and clearly wants to play out, but it's like she just chances her arm occasionally rather than pining at the door constantly. We've sort of convinced her that the cellar is 'outside.'
Better that though than under someone's front wheel.
Majority vote by family was she should become an indoor cat. After a year if I’m honest there are still times when I think denying her total freedom seems a bit cruel.
I think you’ll find, with the minimum of research, that modern cats are, by definition, domesticated animals. That means that they’ve been bred over the course of several thousand years, to exist in a domestic environment. If they’ve been raised to be a household cat, then they know no other way of life. Doing that means the animals will be safer, less chance of becoming a pavement pizza, for example, or injuring themselves on sharp infrastructure, plus the native wildlife will be vastly better off, especially considering the additional issues of habitat and foodstuffs loss.