[Closed] Why do the Conservatives get so riled up by Europe

Conservatives don't like foreigners.

Unless they're buying armaments or selling holiday villas.

I'd love to say theres a rational, reasoned, theory about deeply held beliefs, etc. But there isn't. Basically its because they're all terminally small-minded, stupid, ignorant, insular, racist, little Englanders, who view everything through some weird prism of a colonial utopia that never actually existed anyway

Because Europe does annoying things like introduce human rights and worker protection legislation, which means they can't treat the plebs however they like.

Conservatives don't like foreigners.

Basically. In fact they don't really like anyone else including other conservatives but they sort of put up with them so long as they're not too different (like from up north/etc)

Carswell has always been radically 'out there' compared to the rest of the Conservative party - to the point of being labelled an Anarchist, he's also been very much for the breakup of power, a real enemy of the political classes

anyone who had read 'the plan' written by him and Hannan couldn't help but be disappointed in the very un-radical direction of the Conservatives after the election.

Carswell poses a very big threat within UKIP - he's not 'nationalist' about issues like immigration like Farage and the loons, but very much pro free trade but anti the centralisation of powers that Europe has taken on, its a popular message that would upset the balance of power in UKIP. the possibility has already been voiced about a coup to replace Farage with someone like him or Hannan and present the country with with some really radical 'anti-political politics'

Because Europe does annoying things like introduce human rights and worker protection legislation, which means they can't treat the plebs however they like.

yes we were sending kids up chimneys and down pit until 1973 when a new age of enlightenment started

I think they don't like it because faceless European bureacrats make up new rules, get them voted through the European Parliament and then we faithfully implement them often to the "gold" standard whilst the rest of Europe has a more pragmatic approach to implementation

but I could be making it all up

If I am reading that right then Carswell wants to start something like the Tea Party???? Dear God 😯

Net immigration keeps going up, a good thing?

Will help pay for my pension one day but makes buying houses more expensive plus losing green belt.

There was an interesting article about this in the guardian. It they are not careful the right is going to tear itself apart with infighting lose any chance of being re-elected for a long time.

In general, some of the right believe in "personal responsiblity", self determination and small government. None of these are really possible with the influence of a very large european parliament which we are part of. They would rather have us make our own decisions through our own parliament.

However, there are others who believe that trade and commerce is more important and by being part of the larger european community we are more likely to prosper.

There isn't one party line and as such there is some fierce debate and infighting.

Carswell has always been radically 'out there' compared to the rest of the Conservative party - to the point of being labelled an Anarchist, he's also been very much for the breakup of power, a real enemy of the political classes

Firstly a Conservative Prime Minister took us into the "Common Market", we are in the EU because of that decision which was supported by a later referendum.

Secondly they have always riled against the loss of sovereignty, ie control over key parts of our affairs. This has been magnified in recent years as it has become abundantly clear that the end game for the EU is a United States of Europe.

@ben as an aside the French aren't very happy with the EU at the moment, the centre/right see immigration as out of control and the left (government) are complaining bitterly as EU borrowing rules mean they cannot just keep on with spending as their economy contracts.

In the post Thatcher years, being anti Europe (or at least anti the bits that weren't Tuscany or Provence) was the only thing that could set the Conservatives apart from Nu Labour.

I think its just become force of habit.

Also a convenient distraction / scape goat for their policies. Don't like the fact austerity raises unemployment, blame foreigners etc etc

Conservative;

- adjective
Averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values:

jambalaya - Member
@ben as an aside the French aren't very happy with the EU at the moment, the centre/right see immigration as out of control and the left (government) are complaining bitterly as EU borrowing rules mean they cannot just keep on with spending as their economy contracts.

There is a lot of dogma and nationalist nonsense in anti-EU and/or anti-Euro politics, but there is also some opposition founded on facts.

The biggest issue with the EU and the Euro specifically is the complete mess it has caused by binding economies to the same monetary policy without a common bank or fiscal compact. It's chaos, was fudged (forged in some cases) from the off and is leading to a very painful correction.

The next biggest issue is with the scope it gives for corrupt, greedy career politicians to take up unelected, highly-remunerated posts. That they then go on to help foist ever more obscure bureaucracy onto us is the final insult.

However, there are others who believe that trade and commerce is more important and by being part of the larger european community we are more likely to prosper.

I think this is true, however I'd suggest that the Conservatives who rail against Europe feel pretty much the same, what they don't want is for every element of our domestic policies to be micromanaged from abroad - I would argue that even the strongest proponents of the Human Rights act or EU never envisaged a situation where British school uniform codes were determined by unelected foreign judges!

Cos nationalism and idividualism is a bit right wing (uk) and internationalism and cooperation (Europe) is a bit left wing. We're like the original odd couple.

Less sarcastically I wonder why they care so so so much and think we do too. I sometimes wonder If europe was all i had left to worry about id be doing alright.

Could it be the same reasons most politicians like to focus on the faults of others?

To keep the spotlight away from themselves...

Conservatives are conservative... don't like change. Which is silly really cos change is one of life's certainties 🙂

My parents are very Conservative/conservative but they go to France every year on holiday and absolutely love the place (although they've been doing this for 45 years, which is how conservative they are - they won't go anywhere else!)

I find it odd that they love France and the French to bits but are anti-EU. I think it's something they've learnt from the press and the party rather than something they really believe.

Jeremy Paxman's book 'The English' points out that being an island nation we've always been and will always be seperatist. The fact that we weren't occupied in WW2 and our country wasn't torn to bits to the same extent that Germany and France were also means we don't have the emotional desire to avoid European conflict (the EU is about making Europe too integrated for us to go to war again).

With Western Capitalism, economic growth and high standards of living coming to a grinding halt right now, there's a fashion to scapegoat the nearest 'other' ie: foreigners, Jews, cyclists etc etc - and the Tories just go for foreigners...

Because the Conservative Party is ripped down the middle by the issue.

Every conservative leader has to then try to walk both sides of the street to avoid attempts at a coup d'état.

The labour party historically had the same split, but for different reasons. Not so much these days since New Labour.

digga - Member

The next biggest issue is with the scope it gives for corrupt, greedy career politicians to take up unelected, highly-remunerated posts

For example...?

Taking the "they just don't like foreigners" argument out of it, I think the large part is the way that Europe is governed. Tories tend to like small governments who, within certain criteria, let people make their own decisions/mistakes. Europe doesn't do that, it is a large government that make lots of rules. The conflict comes as, again generalizing, Tories also support business. A lot of business like being in Europe as it makes trade across countries easier. So you have 2 groups, one more concerned with the size and power of government, the other with the business being done in Europe.

In fact, pretty much exactly what Jonba has written.

Lifer - Member
digga - Member
The next biggest issue is with the scope it gives for corrupt, greedy career politicians to take up unelected, highly-remunerated posts

For example...?

and the Kinnocks

Lord Voldemort a.k.a. Mandelson did nicely out of it.

Posted 5 minutes ago # Report-Post

big_n_daft - Member

and the Kinnocks

Posted 4 minutes ago # Report-Post

It's a bit like the seniors PGA tour for politicians who are past their sell by date in their own country.

At least ones who aren't convinced they are god (Blair, I am looking at you).

@ben as an aside the French aren't very happy with the EU at the moment, the centre/right see immigration as out of control and the left (government) are complaining bitterly as EU borrowing rules mean they cannot just keep on with spending as their economy contracts.

Indeed. This makes for pretty scary reading [url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/30/francois-hollande-economics-gamble-with-europe ]France in turmoil[/url]

Particularly...

[i]Into the breach is stepping the charismatic Marine Le Pen, leader of the Front National, who thinks the recipe is to leave the EU, for France to control its borders against immigrants and to embark on policies of economic autocracy in the name of patriotism. Le Pen now leads the opinion polls.[/i]

Makes Farage and his mob look like enlightened, liberal metrosexuals. What we're looking at here is your genuine neo-nazi. I seem to recall that the last time they took the helm of a major European economy, it didn't go well. You'd think that the more right wing of both the Tories and the UKIP nutters might want to stop and have a think about that.

Heres an alternative reality

Carswell takes leadership of UKIP
rids them of the 'BNP lite' crowd that have thrived under Farage
Does the election deal with Cameron that Farage has ruled out - ie. a UKIP/Tory election pact

Post election results in Conservative/UKIP coalition - back of the net! 😈

dannyh - Member

Lord Voldemort a.k.a. Mandelson did nicely out of it.
Posted 5 minutes ago # Report-Post

big_n_daft - Member

and the Kinnocks

Posted 4 minutes ago # Report-Post
It's a bit like the seniors PGA tour for politicians who are past their sell by date in their own country.

At least ones who aren't convinced they are god (Blair, I am looking at you).

Do not Google details if you suffer from high blood pressure.

@binners, the dangers of mainstream parties failing to deal with issues like immigration which the public have said are important leads to the rise of these parties. Indeed very scary.

I am quite surprised here that people think that a Conservative supporter staunchly anti EU wouldn't enjoy travelling or indeed owning a property abroad ? The two things are not mutually exclusive at all.

Jeremy Paxman's book 'The English' points out that being an island nation we've always been and will always be seperatist. The fact that we weren't occupied in WW2 and our country wasn't torn to bits to the same extent that Germany and France were also means we don't have the emotional desire to avoid European conflict (the EU is about making Europe too integrated for us to go to war again).

This is a key part of the base position. It's largely driven from the standard British foreign policy of opposing any nation in Europe who is a potential threat to us (hence fighting for or against with pretty much every nation there over the last few hundred years).

Because we don't have the same possibility of war as a result of exactly this EU move, the nature of the challenge to European hegemony has shifted. But the principle is still the same and self-selecting members of the same group tend to have reasonably aligned views: in this case, ceding too much "control" to Europe represents the same issue found in fighting with the French against the Germs, with the Germans against the French, for and against the Russians, etc.).

I am quite surprised here that people think that a Conservative supporter staunchly anti EU wouldn't enjoy travelling or indeed owning a property abroad ? The two things are not mutually exclusive at all.

Indeed (in fact, it makes obvious sense). But I'm not surprised - binary views are just that!

We seem to be in agreement with each other again jambalaya . Can you stop it please. Its most disconcerting 😉

Its not just the tories though. As with other subjects we've covered recently. The metropolitan Islingtonite, multicultural labour* party has a evangelical belief in how their utopian world-view should play out. They don't let anything as awkward as facts get in the way of their perfect little world.

They haven't a clue about how this is [i]actually[/i] taking effect in the areas they supposedly represent. In their core northern constituencies, mass immigration has led to massive competition for scarce jobs, with unscrupulous employers driving down wages to subsistence level. As well as putting a huge strain on public services in northern cities that have had their budgets butchered.

I've said it before: but if Labour is so blind as to believe UKIP is a southern Tory problem (and I'm convinced thats exactly what they think), then they're in for one hell of a shock at the next election. Nigel Farage knows this and will actively target northern working class seats. The labour party will batten down the hatches and entrench itself yet further behind its Islington/Westminster barricades, cross its fingers and hope for the best

* the word 'labour' is used figuratively in this instance, and incurs no representation of actual organised labour

@binners - excellent but we both know it won't last ! I agree with your last post too.

Secondly they have always riled against the loss of sovereignty

jambalaya - Member
@binners - excellent but we both know it won't last ! I agree with your last post too.

Go far enough left and far enough right and you end up in the same place 😉

Our adherence to gold standard rules just got me through Italian passport control faster than the Schengen mob. Hurrah says I.

I find it odd that they love France and the French to bits but are anti-EU. I think it's something they've learnt from the press and the party rather than something they really believe.

I find very odd that you cannot differentiate between a country and its people and a political idea !

The Tories are completely against being ruled from another country by people you didn't vote for. Unless you're Scottish obviously 😉

Or northern.

cheekyboy - Member
I find it odd that they love France and the French to bits but are anti-EU. I think it's something they've learnt from the press and the party rather than something they really believe.
I find very odd that you cannot differentiate between a country and its people and a political idea !

A country which is at best ambiguous about its place in the EU.

I find it odd that people talk about the EU and the Euro as fixed entities of which the UK is effectively independent of when in fact we are agents of significant change and the future of both institutions is by no means assured.

I find it odd that people talk about the EU and the Euro as fixed entities of which the UK is effectively independent of when in fact we are agents of significant change and the future of both institutions is by no means assured.

A common market was and remains a great idea. The rest of the nonsense is just that.

@jambalaya I'd broadly agree with the superstate idea but for the fact that the two major protagonists of the Euro are effectively now at loggerheads.

Germany has no political will to underwrite bailouts to fiscally irresponsible and France lacks the political will to reform itself in the shape of a 21st century, global-market-based economy. There is really no room to compromise - Schauble's press release last week was unequivocal.

Don't forget too that with Italy in recession and France's banks being the main foreign owner of Italian debt, there's a whole slow-motion train wreck in progress.

I find it odd that they love France and the French to bits but are anti-EU. I think it's something they've learnt from the press and the party rather than something they really believe.
I find very odd that you cannot differentiate between a country and its people and a political idea !

Point taken. tbh it's more that my parents are very intelligent and generally well-informed and insightful and pretty open-minded, but when it comes to EU they seem to lose a lot of that and come out with generalised soundbite-type complaints rather than their usual well-informed insights.

As said above, they're Conservative in that they like small state government and are pro-business and EU is largely the opposite and so they rail against it...

My uni dissertation (written in 1995) concluded that UK needed to stop ranting against EU and get in amongst it to try and reform it rather than sitting on the outside sulking. In essence I still hold the same view, although given the current state of the Euro-area and how it's responded to the credit crunch etc you do wonder if the EU is beyond reform now and would be better off as a free trade bloc rather than a political and social one (which probably puts me in traditional Tory territory!)

tbh it's more that my parents are very intelligent and generally well-informed and insightful and pretty open-minded, but when it comes to EU they seem to lose a lot of that and come out with generalised soundbite-type complaints rather than their usual well-informed insights

Well maybe...just maybe your parents have both the intelligence as well as a good dose of common sense and experience to realise the absolute tosh and jibble, jabble spoken by politicians both for and against the EU.

Net immigration keeps going up, a good thing?

Will help pay for my pension one day but makes buying houses more expensive plus losing green belt.

So you want me and my future children to pay higher taxes, so you can keep your greenbelt?

That's the problem with UKIPers and Conservatives in general, the right lost the mantra of building a better world for the future/their children and only care about their own lives at that point in time.

A common market was and remains a great idea. The rest of the nonsense is just that.

Can you really have a common market without the rest? I don't think so.

Try selling something to a Norweigian (EEA) vs a Swede(EU) for example.

So you want me and my future children to pay higher taxes, so you can keep your greenbelt?
That's the problem with UKIPers and Conservatives in general, the right lost the mantra of building a better world for the future/their children and only care about their own lives at that point in time.

(I don't understand how your post and the one you quote relate to each other at all, frankly)

Because when they're shoving bananas up one another's arses in their London clubs, they bloody well like a gentle curve.

The Tories simply find a lot of the decisions and rules just a bit lefty for their taste.
It's pretty black and white to a lot of them, being a member of the EU you're either exploited or the exploiter.
They want the ability to exploit but aren't prepared to have to bend over occasionally and share the love.
An awful lot of them understand the need to give up a lot in order to get back much more but there is a core that don't or won't and their numbers swell and ebb with the political tide.
When a super wave builds, it creates havoc for them.

it's about being a bigger fish in a smaller pond. applies equally to consevatives vs europe, and snp vs UK. IMO.
come on lads, we'll have more of our own money to play with that we can squirrel away in to our own projects/back pockets, without anyone looking over our shoulders.

That's the problem with UKIPers and Conservatives in general, the right lost the mantra of building a better world for the future/their children and only care about their own lives at that point in time.

Yep... that pretty much sums it up. They ramble on about individualism, the rights of the individual etc, but in reality they just epitomise greed and selfishness. Thatcher was quoted out of context when she said 'theres no such thing as society', but this shower of ****s interpreted it literally. And the problem with Europe is that those pinko, commy bastards still have some quaint, outdated notion that we shouldn't all be spending our lives trampling over everyone else to grasp as much as possible for ourselves. You know... workers rights and stuff. Rather than a race to the bottom on wages and rights. Thus the natural hostility of the landlord/employer class, looking to maximise their own pile at the expense of everyone else

binners - Member
Thus the natural hostility of the landlord/employer class, looking to maximise their own pile at the expense of everyone else

Right now we are looking back on a very brief window of history where the levels of welfare and public spending were sustainable in Western Europe and mistaking it for the norm, or our right.

You're right about levels of public spending. I think most people are now fairly resigned to that now. Hence the weary acceptance of the stagnation of the British economy.

When I say most people are resigned to it, that obviously excludes the French. Who always seem to have had the impression that they were entitled to be subsidised by everyone else. Hence the alarming rise of Le Pen and the neo-nazi's in France. Offering simple crowd-pleasing solutions to complex problems. Much like Farage, only scarier

binners - Member
I'd love to say theres a rational, reasoned, theory about deeply held beliefs, etc. But there isn't. Basically its because they're all terminally small-minded, stupid, ignorant, insular, racist, little Englanders, who view everything through some weird prism of a colonial utopia that never actually existed anyway

bencooper - Member
Because Europe does annoying things like introduce human rights and worker protection legislation, which means they can't treat the plebs however they like.

The 2nd and 3rd posts deftly and succintly summarise all you need to know about this. With the addition of one minor fact: the whole thing is frothed up by the Murdoch papers - ie a US agenda to prevent Europe from coalescing into something that could compete on economic and military terms with them.

dbcooper - Member
a US agenda to prevent Europe from coalescing into something that could compete on economic and military terms with them.

The whole Euro entry criteria was flawed and riddled with fraud (Google for Goldman Sachs input with Greece and Germany - try "debt warehousing") and the EU itself has never produced a set of accounts that [i]any[/i] auditor would put their name to.

You cannot share a currency without also sharing fiscal, tax and legal policy. It will never work.

Right now we are looking back on a very brief window of history where the levels of welfare and public spending were sustainable in Western Europe and mistaking it for the norm, or our right.

That's what they want you to think.

Let's be clear on this, the EU has done a good job of breaking things from within and is now at the stage where forces are beginning to pull in very opposite directions.

That may well be true, but it just means we need reform, not a xenophobic withdrawal.

so you want to build over green belts so you and your kids can pay [s]fractionally[/s] considerably less in tax?

(I don't understand how your post and the one you quote relate to each other at all, frankly)

Not wanting to see greenbelt built on is a purely selfish motive.

Right now we are looking back on a very brief window of history where the levels of welfare and public spending were sustainable in Western Europe and mistaking it for the norm, or our right.

Is that how you justify inequality then? I suppose we should go back to being a monarchical state run by religious loons, seeing as historically speaking, that's totally normal as well.

Britain is still expected to be a top 10 economy by 2050, it's not like we're going to become a 2nd world nation unable to afford some level of welfare anytime soon. As long as you know, we have a young enough population to work and support everyone else.

e Murdoch papers - ie a US agenda to prevent Europe from coalescing into something that could compete on economic and military terms with them.

It all sounds a bit conspiracyish, but the yanks have always secretly hated the EU.

fiscal, tax and legal policy.

The American States seem to have plenty of autonomy to govern these.

It all sounds a bit conspiracyish, but the yanks have always secretly hated the EU.

It's not a conspiracy, it's a fact, do you think that newspapers do not push an agenda?

The last thing the Americans want to see is a genuine United States of Europe. You can tell they're not worried that it'll actually happen though, as they haven't started any protectionist trade wars yet

Not wanting to see greenbelt built on is a purely selfish motive.

how is turning England's semisuburbia into total suburbia building a better future?

Tom_W1987 - Member

Right now we are looking back on a very brief window of history where the levels of welfare and public spending were sustainable in Western Europe and mistaking it for the norm, or our right.

Is that how you justify inequality then?

As for inequality, inept, left-wing economic policy (QE for example) has done more to make the top 1% better off than just about anything in history. When even billionaires are complaining that it is unfair, you know something is wrong.

Eurosceptic (against the currency rather than the union) AfD party has ousted Angela Merkel's CDU party in Saxony: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29006799

@digga
Are you saying quantative easing (QE) is a left wing policy, if so how so ?
The "rich" are complaining about QE as it's lowering investment returns generally

The top 1% were much better off on a relative basis 100 and 200 years ago than they are now. Also you need to work out what you mean by better off, with free education, pensions, property ownership, health care and decent life expectancy I think the broader population have never had it so good.

As for inequality, inept, left-wing economic policy (QE for example) has done more to make the top 1% better off than just about anything in history. When even billionaires are complaining that it is unfair, you know something is wrong.

That's a complete joke and possibly an outright lie. We haven't had proper left wing policy in this country for 30 odd years, whilst Scandinavia has far lower levels of inequality than us.

how would building on greenbelt land lead to lower taxes?
how is turning England's semisuburbia into total suburbia building a better future?

Provides more housing for more people of working age, if we can no longer build on brown sites.

It's not a conspiracy, it's a fact, do you think that newspapers do not push an agenda?

I was agreeing with you there.