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Just reading this
made me wonder why on earth people do that? To some extent I could imagine why someone throws a stone at the police, and maybe someone would rob an ambulance of drugs, but really, is it a sort of mental imbalance that leads people to do this? Do any of the emergency workers on the forum have any insight into this?
Two reasons....
a) They're drunk / on drugs and
b) they're arseholes
They cant see the bigger picture, find it fun and are plain stupid.
Perhaps the sentance for doing this would be to ban them from any form of emergency assistance, like hospitals, Dr's, Police etc.
b) they’re arseholes
End of thread.
b) they’re arseholes
^^^^^ this.
Two reasons….
a) They’re drunk / on drugs and
b) they’re arseholes
Pretty much covers it. Why do people do loads of horrible things, because they are horrible people.
why do people attack anyone?
Alcohol, drugs & or mental health crisis generally.
Time to watch Clockwork Orange again.
They're terminal morons, hyped up further by alcohol, drugs and adrenaline/stress.
Oh yeah, and they're arseholes as above.
Time to watch read Clockwork Orange again.
Are we suggesting clockwork orange to find out why they do it or as a suggestion for the cure?
Assaults on nurses tend to be two things. 1) Telling an areshole they cannot have what they want (made worse by drinking) in A&E 2) people in delirium or with dementia who do not understand what is happening so lash out
I guess ambulance staff get 1) a lot
This legislative change is not in response to a huge outbreak of violence - its about pandering to the prejudices of gammons
Two reasons….
a) They’re drunk / on drugs and
b) they’rearseholesmentally ill
Some are just arseholes too though I expect
This legislative change is not in response to a huge outbreak of violence – its about pandering to the prejudices of gammons
Do we need longer sentences or just get tougher with what's currently available?
My dr trained in a+e in a not very desirable area in uk, he turned his back while treating a patient and was assaulted. Poor doc was ok but didn't want any charges made, but nhs always prosecute, or did, this was a while ago. The guy was drunk, clearly drinking on an empty head.
Assaulting a doctor treating your injury is pretty poor, went to court, don't know what happened am afraid.
Do we need longer sentences or just get tougher with what’s currently available?
Better prevention would help more.
<blockquoteThe guy was drunk, clearly drinking on an empty head.
I've been drunk a fair few times in my life but I don't remember it prompting to attack someone, let alone someone who's obviously helping me!
Reading the original article it's about emergency workers in general and also includes prison workers.
The majority of incidents will probably be police officers. Most people don't like getting arrested or forcibly restrained and a lot of them strike back.
Typical leftie response but the social contract in this country is pretty much totally broken. We've had 30-40 years of being told to look out for ourselves and screw everyone else, and that your value as a person is based on your ability to spend money on shite you don't need.
Surprisingly enough this isn't working out too well for a lot of people, and they lash out at an easy target that represents the state but won't fight back like police do.
TL;DR - because they're arseholes, but there's a reason why they're arseholes
Are we suggesting clockwork orange to find out why they do it or as a suggestion for the cure?
Neither the book or the film offer up any answers, they just bring home some of the questions very starkly.
After 20 year's working in A&E's, I would say top of the list is drunken/ drugged up arsehole's(some may not actually be arsehole's without the substanceuse). Some arsehole's don't even need drink or drinks. Some folk with head trauma can get a bit punchy with or without drugs or alcohol. Some folk with one of many types of mental illness might, but I have never felt this is anything other than a reaction to their illness, and this is a small number over that time.
I think its people rather than the alcohol, though the alcohol appears to bring that side of their nature to the fore, and it must be the dominant side 😕
I've been well sozzled and had them stitch a stab wound to my arm, across a nerve, and due to being drunk said they couldn't give me a local anesthetic. Only 4 stitches but due to the nerve each one shot pain up my arm. and the slow puling through of the thread 😆
At no point did I feel like bashing the nurse. I've never caused a scene. OK that once walking out with an open artery wasn't amongst my best ideas, and of course the time with Dr Spanky, and Nurse Stabby, but that's a tale for another day 😉
What grum said.
Because they are ****s, ive been bricked too many times to count in the past, we've even been trapped in dead ends blocked in by bins or cars or people and been bricked as well as just when responding to a call, there was a period where we would be called to an area and we had to go past the park and we would always get bricked from the field you can't even stop even though its mostly a false alarm as the attackers have rang it in to wait for you but it might not be, we once actually turned up to a house fire with the windscreen put through, its not as frequent as it used to be but it still happens my gaffer was assaulted recently and there's nowt we can to back to them 🙁
Better prevention would help more.
Sorry, I was assuming that was a given, whether it's mental health, drugs or alcohol.
I work as a repairman for social housing. I've lost count of the idiots who seem to think they can have a go at me for something that is totally out of our (the Companys) control.
There has only been one place where I refused to go in, as the bloke was aggressive to me on the doorstep, so there was no way I was going in.
He then chased me down the street, well, not a chase, but he started following me, telling me he was going to report me, and I would be sacked, and I'm going to get a kicking etc. It was the only time when I was ready to punch a tenant, if he had took a step closer he would have been punched numerous times.
The strange thing is, his partner had rang us up to get the repair done, yet he was abusive when they were getting some help. as for ambulance staff et al, it doesnt make sense, they are just idiots.
Do we need longer sentences or just get tougher with what’s currently available?
The only logical reason for increasing sentences or even being tougher with current ones is as deterrent. Given most people in these circumstances aren't lucid, sober, calm, I very much doubt they are balancing the risks of increased sentences.
It's not just emergency workers, I have been spat at by random strangers working telecoms joining cables down a holes in the street, and when working in "cash register" repairs, pub landlords frequently got all threateny one set his dogs on me.
I think any job where you deal with the public it's a risk, attacking traffic wardens is virtually seen as socially acceptable, and ironically verbally abusing traffic wardens brings mass public support if your an ambulance driver.
I just looked up the assault on the a+e doc as above, it was a serial offender and got a custodial sentence. I took a relative to an a+e 2 years ago and there's a notice board by the door with pictures of all the people who are banned from entering, there were quite a few.
I was assaulted at a fire, some ned thought it would be fun to **** me on the back of the legs with a broom handle absolutely no idea why! No the smartest move by him as there were loads of police there also, quickly bundled away by them, I can still his mothers words ringing in my ears " he's a good loon, he's done nithing wrang" 🤷♂️ Turns out he was released the day before from jail for drug couriering. He got 13 months for his troubles that day.
Arsehole would be a fair assessment of him.
Was the thing up the valley’s to throw rocks at Firemen, set some bins on fire and throw stones at the engines when they turn up. Seems to of died down now.
My sister works in mental health, her quote the other day was “there are some really nasty bastards around these days”:
my gaffer was assaulted recently and there’s nowt we can to back to them
I saw nothing, I'm sure no one else did too.
Don't underestimate how many people are almost permanently pissed or off their faces on drugs.
AA our wagons are full of cameras we would be sacked in a heartbeat
. We’ve had 30-40 years of being told to look out for ourselves and screw everyone else, and that your value as a person is based on your ability to spend money on shite you don’t need
There's so much about society that has come home to roost because of this.
What Grum said - no-one is born an arsehole, arseholes are created. How they are created is no doubt a complicated mix that's beyond my ability to properly understand, but progressively withdrawing support from people in vulnerable situations over the past decades will have played a part.
Too often in this country we're short-sighted when it comes to spending - investment in social infrastructure has been shown to have a long-term positive ROI (e.g. reducing policing costs for this kind of ****tery), but it's usually first on the chopping block when the politicians need to save some money.
I think it's a combination of decreasing work opportunities for many (low skilled manufacturing etc. have gone), higher expectations (and a sense of entitlement) most of the population now have, combined with a more generous welfare state has led to the current situation. It's not just the UK either.
Go back 50 years and there were still arseholes but many were employed, they needed to work as welfare was less generous, drinking culture more controlled and less access to drugs.
Unintended consequences of well intentioned policy. There has been an on going belief more support, both financial and emotional, will improve society, doesn't seem to be working though.
Because they said to ‘clap’ the NHS - which is fine for old folk and most boomers to understand but many young people understand ‘clapping tryhards’ to mean ‘take out’
I don’t mean to dinner, neeverlaike. Innit.
But seriously - grum and stumpyjon can both have a point. I warrant it’s not as binary as x vs y. Evidence and convincing study/ies of causation would be preferable.
@stumpyjon we have pretty much the least generous benefits of any high income country apart from the US, and they've been getting less generous.
@stumpyjon we have pretty much the least generous benefits of any high income country apart from the US, and they’ve been getting less generous.
+1
Here’s a link to a survey conducted in a Turkish ED
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1976131711000247
Obviously cultural differences factor (ie female staff in Turkey are far less likely to be physically assaulted than males, but more likely to be subjected to sexual harassment) but a disturbing commonality with other similar studies I’ve skimmed is the underreporting of incidents. It seems that over 65% of incidents go unreported - meaning the problem is far bigger than we’re given to understand.
In the UK (reported) sexual assaults on ambulance staff increased 211% in 2018.
https://www.gmb.org.uk/news/sexual-assaults-ambulance-staff-rocket-211
An international survey of violence against EMS personnel found:
Results
There were 1,778 EMS personnel respondents from 13 countries; 69% were male and 54% were married. Around 55% described their primary EMS work location as “urban.” Approximately 68% described their employer as a “public provider.” The majority of respondents were from the US.When asked “Have you ever been physically attacked while on-duty?” 761 (65%) of the 1,172 who answered the question answered “Yes.” In almost 10% (67) of those incidents, the perpetrator used a weapon. Approximately 90% of the perpetrators were patients and around five percent were patient family members. The influence of alcohol and drugs was prevalent. Overall, men experienced more assaults than women, and younger workers experienced more assaults than older workers.
There has been an on going belief more support, both financial and emotional, will improve society, doesn’t seem to be working though.
Not sure what you mean by ‘more emotional support’ in this context?
I get verbal and physical abuse at work a lot (nurse, acute medicine)
Usual categories:
A. Dementia. They can batter the hell out of staff and get a pass becuase they are ill. To be fair we understand that so it's part of the job. Still not ideal to be attacked with a walking stick at 0300.
B. Infections causing confusion. Can batter the hell out of staff and get a pass becuase they are ill.
C. Post operative delerium. Can batter the hell out off staff and get a pass becuase they are ill.
D. Detoxing. Get a bit naggy and act out when you don't leap when asked to. Not really acceptable behaviour.
E. Arseholes who don't want to play by the rules and don't like being told what to do "no, you can't smoke in here" "no you can't do heroin in the toilet" "no I'm not getting you a cup of tea during a crash situation". That leads to verbals, spitting, threats, physical altercations.
F. Angry relatives who can't control emotions and lash out. Witnessed a colleague being pinned against a wall by her throat and had to intervene. Nothing came of it. Obviously.
Woman I know just had 6 months off because she got throttled by a post operative patient. Man in his 60s. Battered her with a few quick punches. She went off with injuries and subsequent stress. He went home the next day. The next day!! Blamed on being post op delerium. Nobody challenged him about it in terms of police at the time. She called the police herself. He said he didn't remember any of it. Nothing happened apart from having the screws tightened on her until she returned to work.
I've been in the NHS for 15 years in various forms. Seen a lot of staff being abused, sexually assaulted etc etc. Been punched myself numerous times. Had a computer screen thrown at me by a detox patient the other month. Never seen anyone have charges pressed. Always an excuse not to. Guess we just get used to it.
Oh and the recent one is covid+ patients spitting at staff....
Grum / footflaps, I don't disagree, the system is particularly poor at supporting people during short term life disruption, illness or loss of job which then through due to lack of appropriate support when it's needed results in long term issues.
Welfare is more generous than 50 years ago, and people's expectation have increased, the whole thing was still relatively new and covered a lot less back then, people had to look after themselves more or face the consequences. Of course the consequences could be pretty dire.
I'm not advocating any lessening of the welfare state but we do seem to have spawned a group of people to whom authority means nothing and their behaviour doesn't have seem to have consequences. Maybe they've always existed.
With @grum and @ebennett on this. Due to adopting I’ve done a lot of research on childhood trauma and the ways to reduce the effects of that. Without trauma aware education and social care you end up with people prone to amygdala hijack resulting in irrational and violent reactions in situations which do not warrant it.
The answer to this is in the social care and education sector rather than law enforcement. Unfortunately this does not appeal to the serves them right, hang-em-high response most of us (myself included) have to such incidents. The recent Panorama programme on school violence has some good approaches which combat the root causes of violence, rather than ineffective punishment after the fact. It won’t play well to the tabloid press or Tory party conference though.
There is also the irreducible number of people who are just aresholes.
I’m not advocating any lessening of the welfare state but we do seem to have spawned a group of people to whom authority means nothing and their behaviour doesn’t have seem to have consequences. Maybe they’ve always existed.
I wonder if olly2097 would prefer either their person or their ‘authority’ to be respected? Maybe both?
It’s interesting nonetheless that you automatically connect ‘welfare state’ to the attacks. Are your arseholes unemployed because they are arseholes, or are they arseholes because they are unemployed?
Where are the figures that show the employment-status of the attackers?
Does this mean we are looking forward to more arseholes on the attack as the casualties of Brexit, CV19, automation, outsourcing etc etc continue to mount? Would arseholes be more respectful of ‘authority’ if the state provided modern workhouses/‘work for benefits’ schemes?
Plenty of arseholes have jobs, being a selfish dick isn't only reserved for the unemployed!
Plenty of arseholes have jobs, being a selfish dick isn’t only reserved for the unemployed!
There’s truth in that statement.
This is more than arseholes, deserve people rising up and dealing with it.
There have always been aresholes but there appear to be more now than I can ever recall and their behaviour is considerably worse.
In response to Dr J's post and question - I don't know.
On the rare occasions when a court case ensues I could write the script - apologises, out of character, going through stressful time, broken family, had taken cocktail of drink'n'drugs, just broken up with...you get the picture.
Others have had same/similar experiences and developed into solid citizens.
Having spent a lot of time volunteering in the homeless sector I know there are some people in truly difficult - sometimes desperate - circumstances and still understand what is/not appropriate behaviour but I also know that some have no shame using their circumstances in attempting to excuse their socially unacceptable behaviour.
Easy access to drink & drugs is a growing concern.
For some it's a development of generations of resentment of authority - read that as anyone in a uniform - 3rd/4th generation of unemployment & low achievement; marginalised by society; seeing others achieve; angry and hitting out without understanding or thinking about what they're doing or why. They understand the system and are skilled at gaming it - it's what they know.
Doesn't take away that the fact that we will always have scum in society who don't want to change and the scum are from all sectors of society - all classes and all employment statuses.
The only way to treat them is control, confine, punish.
Also, courts should be much more critical and questioning of defences advanced by solicitors.
Police - under resourced.
Social services - under resourced.
Magistrates - crank the handle and churn cases through court as quickly as possible.
All undermined continually by successive governments cutting budgets and searching for 'efficiencies'.
Grum +1
Doesn’t take away that the fact that we will always have scum in society who don’t want to change and the scum are from all sectors of society – all classes and all employment statuses.
The only way to treat them is control, confine, punish.
Quite the defeatist right wing approach.
Some people are arseholes. People are more likely to behave like arseholes when the systems society is run on leaves them behind. Our system over the last 60 years has progressively abandoned whole sections of our population.
If you have no stake in the system, if it fails to treat you with equality and fairness - how would you behave? I’d like to think I wouldn’t be an arsehole - but in reality, few know how they would behave.