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Give me a clear sunny day on groomed pistes and I'll merrily carve my way down the hill all day long. But this holiday its really busy and the pistes are all trashed by 11am with loads of ice patches and we've had a lot of cloud, mist and generally bad light.
On icey pistes if I do wide zigzags down the hill at somepoint I'll lose an edge and skitter down the hill. If I try to carve down it the front or rear of my board will "catch" during a turn and I'll crash out.
As for light, how the hell do you get down the hill when you can't see the lay of the piste? Its like walking on uneven ground in the dark. Others seem less bothered by it. Got persimmon goggles which are supposed to help, but not much.
Just had a bad day on the slopes, tired and grumpy, any tips for tomorrow?
Your on holiday snowboarding. Stop moaning and get on with it.
I'm stuck in an office.
You're too tense. you need to relax and let it flow under you. like riding SS on cobbles, concentrate ahead of you and let the bike move under you while gently making sure you;re heading in the right direction
get out early and go for an early lunch? snowboards suck on icy pistes
I was tempted to see if persimmon googles help but clearly not. I thought there were some fancy Oakleys that were a little better as well but maybe not
Doesn't help being tired, cos you gotta relax. Go with the flow. Don't think feeeel.
I really struggle skiing in flat light these days - since the age of maybe 45. Prior to that it didn't really bother me at all
Poncy lenses make a small difference but I still have trouble and all my family ski away from me as I totter down a totally smooth slope like a noob. Got to the point this year on a day with patchy cloud that I'd stand around waiting for breaks/thinning in the cloud before I'd set off, or chasing the brighter patch down a hill
"Old" age; don't do it kids 🙁
Just had a bad day on the slopes, tired and grumpy, any tips for tomorrow?
Bend your knees & relax more, you'll ride with the lumps and bumps better.
Get better flatlight lenses, then realise they aren't worth the money.
I have the same issues - body armour* helps 🙂
Also, don't get pissed up (too much) the night before...
* I wore knees pads for the first time this year, it's a bloody revelation!
Not much you can do about the light over than go slower. I tend to cruise around practising jumps and tricks when its like that. As for ice, relax as the others have said. Try and avoid the worst bits. Often there is a strip at the edge of the pistes that is really nice, though you do need to be able to handle turns in quick succession to get the most out of it. Is it your own board? If so when was the last time you had it serviced?
get out early and go for an early lunch? snowboards suck on icy pistes
Agreed - though my approach is usually the opposite. Stay in the sunny patches and/or wait till later when it starts getting softer in the afternoon sun. Slush beats ice any day.
“Old” age; don’t do it kids
45 old!? Bugger off!
NBT yeah definitely tensing up, doesn't matter how many times I shout "relax FFS" to myself it doesn't happen. Tricky to concentrate ahead when I m have trouble seeing the state of snow directly beneath me 🙁
Leffeboy yeah I'm always on first lift out, some great early morning runs then it all goes to pot. Ice often coinciding with bad light. Persimmon Oakley's better than naked eye but I'm still struggling.
I guess I've been lucky, this is my first hol with iffy conditions so I'm not really used to them, normally only issues are the odd shaded piste or if im still out after 4 and the piste might be in a state. Had a proper whiteout earlier in the week, visibility down to a few meters, white everywhere, really disorienting, sent my eyes funny (tested my eyesight recently, 20/20)
Relaxing & not boarding tired are probably the big ones.
My mate is riding away from me constantly now, he's better anyway but I grind to a halt in bad conditions where it only slows him a little, he said "get lessons".
Flat light sucks.
I actually called a halt at 1pm on our first ski day last month as the light was so bad it just wasnt any fun.
As regards ice. Yes it sucks on a board. Deeply. The only real solution is to take up skiing.
Nixie my board was edged & waxed before my last hol, I waxed it before this one, edges not blunt but a few burrs from stones. How much do edges/wax matter on ice? my mates never had his serviced (over 10yo, half a dozen holidays) and as I said he's coping fine.
any tips for tomorrow?
Skis. Slalom skis with edges at 87.
Had a proper whiteout earlier in the week, visibility down to a few meters, white everywhere, really disorienting, sent my eyes funny
Yeah it does that. Mesmerising and disorienting at the same time. If you don't ave someone to follow then the best thing to do is ride near the edge of the piste where you have trees or piste marker pole to give your eyes something to focus on.
I've been in a couple of proper whiteouts where my senses were so overwhelmed that I wasn't entirely sure if I was moving or not. (Clue: if you stand up straight after you've stopped and instantly fall on your face then you were probably still moving).
The edges cut into the ice. Some boards even have a light serration effect which aids icy grip. Depending on how good you are you may drag the edges a lot causing them to go blunt. Ice also blunts them quicker. How long was the previous holiday? Either way its not going to hurt and its doesn't cost that much.
Your mate might be surprised in the difference if he got it done.
Yeah, whiteouts no fun.
I nearly went off a cliff in Meribel when I misread the piste markers I could barely see. That was brown trouser time I can tell you...
As for light, how the hell do you get down the hill when you can’t see the lay of the piste?
Honestly, sort out your technique starting primarily with your stance. Keep it relatively low and loose so that you can absorb changes in the ground and head for tree lined runs. Also
“get lessons”.
is far from the worst advice.
I sympathise with you OP. Got back from a boarding holiday at the weekend and suffered like yourself, it's not nice. Hope this helps!
Not a boarder but sharp edges on skis make a huge difference. I've also done the Graham S. moment of completely losing perspective. I thought I was still moving so went to do a stop but I was already stopped.... to my friends it was an amusing moment of me bracing and putting edges in before falling sideways.
45 old!? Bugger off
that's just when it started dez - I'm 53 you know, young man !
As lots have said stay loose and low, nice relaxed turns from the just the ankles with bent knees to absorb any bumps.
persimmon lenses are good but not the best, for proper whiteouts the hi yellow lenses work much better, but if the sun comes your you can end up in a world of pain, they are known as eye bleeders for a reason!
Also if you can get a lesson or two if you are really struggling, have a search for a BASI instructor in your resort.
Been meaning to get lessons but never got round to it, 2days of the hol left, a bit late now 🙁
Even staying relaxed if i'm skimming along on my toe edge i can't see the pile of snow/banking that's about to catch my heel edge. Struggling to see a technique that helps there - but accept I'm not very good/knowledgeable at this.
Whiteout not knowing if you're moving was really creepy, had similar this afternoon, could hear my board compacting the snow beneath me but going so slow and when no point of reference in sight the sound was the only way I knew I was moving.
I always give the same advice.
Get in the trees , blaze one up, chill and ride some pow. Or hit the park. Or call it a day and get boozy.
Sorted
What thegeneralist said: take up skiing, after all, who wants to go on holiday and sit on their ar$e all day trying to look gnarly. Ever wondered why snowboard manufacturers have their name on the underside of the board? This is the bit that gets seen the most. Causing carnage on chair lifts, falling off drags, etc etc etc. Snowboarders should be f'ing banned.
Sweaman2....Don't even think about having sharper edges on snowboards, lethal enough as they are.
Haha Nickclift you twit!
LOL nickclift
I've had the leaning into a turn while stationary as well, also occasionally not been stopped but looking around I could only see blowing snow making it look like I was going backwards - that's properly weird !
(MrsPants gets seasick in flat light, even though she can see the contours better than me)
I haven't used a board for years and only ski now as I can't risk falling on a dodgy shoulder so take this with a pinch of salt:
When there's grip use it, when there isn't don't try. So when you say you're skimming alon on and edge and risk catching anohter edge that says to me you're perhaps trying to use you edges to much and they are letting go so you end up on your arse. So kepp your weight over the board and scrub round turns without getting onto the edge too much. Just drift turns rather than try to carve.
You suck because it's a lot harder than the conditions you excel in!
[i]Edukator wrote:[/i]
any tips for tomorrow?
Skis. Slalom skis with edges at 87.
Is the correct answer, boards suck on icy piste - their natural terrain is off piste or in the park. I've boarded black run mogul fields and icy hard pistes, but TBH it's nowhere near as fun as doing the same thing on skis.
Failing that lots of good tips above at making it less bad - yes, edges are really important on ice, but it's not just about the gear, you have to know how to use it - you need to get the board on those edges rather than being soft on them as you usually can. It's where carving on the edges rather than skidding around becomes really important. So whilst it is important to relax, don't relax too much!
edit: haha - pretty much the opposite advice to edu! Whilst he probably has lots more skiing experience than me, I'm less than convinced that drifting around on ice is a good idea on a board - it might work on skis, but on a board you have no balance point with unpredictably skidding. I do have very recent experience on a board, but that was only in almost perfect powder conditions (on the Malverns in December!)
On ice I take the view that proper technique isn't helping so use the ice to slide your way down, instead of nice big carves I normally spin the board under me from edge to edge/weight the back foot to induce a slide and let it slide to take the speed out as it's obviously not biting. Doesn't look very elegant but unless I meet some big lumps it seems pretty effective.
Not the easiest to describe but hope that helps.
Because you only snowboard for one week or so a year so you'll never be a superstar. Good skiing and boarding is all about being able to do it in a variety of conditions. Anyone can ski and board well when the conditions are ideal, but the tough get going when conditions are not ideal. After 21 years of skiing I'm only just comfortable with flat light and low vis conditions, and over the past few holidays have 'mastered' slushy conditions, which I'd always previously struggled with, as I've been on holidays later in the season with those conditions so had to improve. Ice is something I'm not comfortable on as I'm a control freak and don't like it unless I feel I've got good control and on ice sometimes you just have to straight line it and side slip it and trust that you're going to be able to at least influence your direction of travel if not completely control it. But with practice you'll get better. Shit hot skiers will just commit, pick up their speed, get their edges in and carve the edges on ice because they're shit hot and can. The rest of us just have to manage as best we can I'm afraid.
Also on ice good edges help ALOT and in my experience with my snowboarding mates often snowboarders have crap edges because you're always trying to grind things like tree logs, and insist on riding the shittyest routes under the ski lift with exposed rocks and your edges are blunt and scraped upto crap.
Most amusing that we offer opposite advice, Aracer. That's pretty much it, Surfingobo.
Following on from a comment above about weighting edges on ice that is certainly something I notice on skis. Have to make a conscious effort to really drive the ski over and carve as opposed to lazily half carving / half smearing which you can do on softer pistes.
I try to dig edges in, thing I'm too tense tho.
Cheers for the replies. Snowing tonight so hopefully plenty of powder tomorrow, easier to board and a softer landing 🙂 will also pack in early if things go badly again, rest a little, save my energy and try to make the most on Friday
Have you ever used a board on icy pistes, Sweaman? Even carving hard on skis you've still got one ski prety much tucked under your centre of gravity. On a board you haven't got that so getting your C of G too far from the centre of the board and losing grip means you'll go down.
Have you ever used a board??
Nope. Never been on a snowboard at all (let alone on icy pistes) so my advice is purely from a skiing perspective and so may be worse than useless.
One of the folks in the chalet we were at this year swore by Oakley Prizm lenses for flat light but I have no idea if that was just because she had just spent a lot on them or if they really make that much of a difference. Anyone tried them or are yellow lenses still your best option (if you have the choice)
One of the folks in the chalet we were at this year swore by Oakley Prizm lenses
A mate who I ski with has some and really likes them. They look ****ing daft though - half goggles, half gegs
I have some oakley prizm trail gegs which have a similar (looking) filter but a bit paler, cheaper and don't look as weird. I read on a ski forum that they were supposed to be pretty good in flat light, and I'd say they are around as good as my mate's (I think they do a skiing prizm that's paler than his now and I reckon it may be almost the same as mine). I also have a new pair of cheap Smith goggles from sportpuruit with their flat light lens (blue sensor mirror, the email says). haven't really tried them out yet though
If you own your own board, buy an edge sharpening tool. If you rent, make sure your rental board has had its edges sharpened.
There was a time when manufacturers did ice-specific boards (e.g. GNU / LicTech Magnetraction edges) but nowadays any modern / progressive camber board with sharp edges will ride well, providing your stance isn't whacko.
On the goggles front, if I had the choice I’d go for the Prizms. Pricey mind.
One other thing that occurs to me is that a lot of people here talk about carving like it’s the only way to ski or board. Frankly it’s not a skill that is all that useful in my opinion, unless you are racing. You can’t do it in powder, when it gets lumpy, or when you are in trees. There are other more effective ways of turning (on skis and a board) that are necessary to learn if you want to be able to ride in all conditions.
I think what I was really trying to get across was
-stay loose
-let the board slide, it's going to anyway so instead of trying to desperately dig it in just accept it and let it go
-don't worry about the board catching an edge, if you're loose and lowish your legs will compress and then the board will let go and slide again. It's going to happen, no point stressing.
ice + flat light are ok....... but ice + flat light + steep are a nightmare.
In icy conditions, I actually find it better to narrow my run (ie: shorter zigs and zags) - so your turns (edge to edge) are shallower / at a less acute angle, and so you are putting less pressure on the edge biting into the ice each time. Also, using a narrower run with faster turns means that if you feel an edge going (or fail to bite) you can more easily correct.
If I was you I'd stay on some nice long and low blues and greens, go to the snowpark etc. Also, in icy conditions, I find that wearing elbow pads really helps my confidence.
Used to ride a lot to a decent level with Kenty, Big stance Daz, Chris Moran / Rossendale crew etc.
Sharp edges - base grind and wax before you go away, take an edge file/sharpener with you. Check edges every night. Sharpen as required.
Big wide binding stance and tuck down low with your knees bent, weight low over centre line of your board. roll the board from edge to edge with your ankles - none of that swooshing your tail around shit-really dig the edges in and try not to ride the flat/base of your board for too long whilst transitioning from edge to edge as that's when leading edges dig in.
Straight lining and speed actually helps - with long slow carving mellow turns spending a long time on each edge across the whole piste when it's icy.
Slow speed around other people - motorways/lift funnels etc are the time when I always ended up binning it when it was icy.
Standard yellow goggles for flat light - low tucked stance as above for absorbing bumps.
From one of your comments above about worrying about catching an edge (heal side) when you’re on the toe edge it sounds like the board is too flat.
As said above, bend the knees more, maybe check your high backs aren’t too verticle.
Try to point down the slope a bit more, it’s scary sometimes but less edge grip required.
Sharp edges will help massively.
See if you can rent a Lib Tech for a day, see if the magnatraction edges help.
Someone else mentioned about looking for the edge powder, this will really help. If the piste is cambered go to the low side where the snow will have been pushed too.
Yeah - as above, crank loads of forward lean on your bindings. Your stance needs to be as low as you can go - most people stand bolt upright!
Push your bindings wider, crank some lean on and get your bollocks rubbing the top sheet of your board! Tuck!
As low as you can go is tiring and lose you amplitude. Same on skis, bolt upright isn't good, nor is too low. Muscles are more supple and sronger in the middle of their operating range.
As for a norrower staighter run or going faster on verglas, that's how people put themselves and others in barquettes. Swish, swish, swish, swish scrubbing off speed and staying stable will hurt less. It's easier to change direction when you're already turning whether on a board or skis.
Be less tense and lighter on your feet. All very easy to say but difficult to achieve. In other words get out and practice!
Skis or board don’t be afraid of the edge slipping. Standing on an edge really hard (to try and create grip) is too tiring and actually does the opposite of what you want. So start with less pressure on the edge, allow the edge to slip and eventually you will find the balance point of grip v slip without using a load of muscle power. Like all skiing/boarding it’s about finesse and feel.
Agree with edukator low stance is not helpful. It lowers centre of gravity which means it comprises for bad technique but it puts lots of strain on muscles.
The best place to ski / board in conditions like that is Scotland where that’s just a normal day.
It’s easier to change direction when you’re already turning whether on a board or skis.
Troo dat,
The place I rented my daughter's board from were really insistent that the 'correct' width was one third of your height - exactly. It took a lot of persuasion for them to move from that.
(...or a screwdriver of course)
When the conditions are like that it's best to just call it a day and head to the pub IME - it's not fun and it never will be. I got pretty decent at riding in flat light/ice during my seasons but it was still just a case of being happy to make it down rather than enjoying it, and the risk of spannering yourself is vastly increased.
I hate wasting a day when you've only got 6 days to ride a year, but I find it's better to save the legs til you get decent conditions - I'm always a wreck by the end of a holiday if I go big every day. If you must go out, sharpen your edges, stick close to the piste poles - snow is usually better there and you've got a visual marker - and just try to stay loose and confident. The latter is easier said than done though, especially when you're knackered!
As low as you can go is tiring and lose you amplitude. Same on skis, bolt upright isn’t good, nor is too low. Muscles are more supple and sronger in the middle of their operating range.
Don't know what you mean by amplitude?
Mostly people get told "get really, really, low" because they think they're low and bending the knees when they're really, really, not.
Good point about strength and fatigue. I spent a few days riding with a very fast guy in La Grave - won the Derby de la Meije a few times. He'd ride for 5-10 minutes at a time without stopping. Let me have a 2 second breather, set off again with a shout of "Ed, suivez moi!" He'd ride with straighter legs and I learned quite quick that it had it's place. And when you're soaking up crap at silly speeds off piste it helps to try and stay towards the top end of the travel.
Bend those knees, load the edge and stay relaxed as others have said.
Girlfriend and I both bought new boards for this year.....gnu zoid and gnu riders choice. Could not believe the difference, so much more hold, a revelation. Edge hold is incredible.
Amplitude is range of movement from fully bent to fully extended. If you are too low and hit a bump you can't absorb , if your legs are completely straight you won't be as supple Have a look at a tug of war team and learn how to ski/board:
Well that was much better. Couple f inches of powder overnight, first lift up this morning, still could not see a thing but I cranked over my heel backs a bit more, stayed relaxed and trusted in the powder giving me some leeway and a softer landing 🙂
Once we got into the trees & better light riding the soft stuff was awesome, a highlight of the trip. Less ice but still some showing by 11:30 but I coped a lot better, less tired more relaxed and better frame of mind. Called it a day when I started getting tired. I think yesterday was just a really bad day & got me down - I did decide early on to quit but by that time we were several valleys away from home and I was too pigheaded to get lifts down the mountains.
Cheers for the discussion people.
Think yourself lucky.
I suck at snowboarding in powder on empty pistes.
Bloody good fun trying though.
I lived in CH for 8 years ... but have been skiing since 21.
Flat light / bad light / snowing becomes more of an issue as you get older. It's all to do with he rods and cones in your eyes ... and you ability to assess contrast.
In my younger years nothing stopped me, it could be absolutely awful light and I never had any issues ... but theses days, flat light or snowing and I wouldn't bother.
It is much easier on skis ... you have 4 contact points .... or if you are going fast ( you don't correct for the bump you didn't see , you juts ride through it). But if you can see, you can go faster !
You suck because your technique is poor and tough conditions show this more easily. Get a couple of lessons and re-learn what you think you already know.
Its not goggles or gear, it’s you, same as in the bike.
it's easy for you, giantalkali - there's always good light if the sun shines out of your arse
That is true, but I ski with 60ish year old German boarders who use dated 20yr old gear, how often do you think they fall? Not very is the answer, not because they have laser vision or the best gear but because they have the technique dialled. That’s becausethey live 3hours from the Alps and ride every weekend.
With the correct technique you will be less reliant on reading the hill and will become one with it, it’s subtle nuances guiding you, a honed boarding messiah.
Or just go and blow another £80 on goggles
As other have said stay loose .... to me this means changing my mind set a little.... Instead of be pro-active (deciding when and where to put your turns in and powering through them) be re-active... put your turns in but be ready to put in another if the hill/snow under you dicates.
And something I'm not sure has been said ..... In flat light, trees are your friends. Head to pistes through them or better still, if you get right into them for proper tree runs, chances are, you will not have ice to contend with.
Good luck
Here’s my two pence worth, I’ve been snowboarding for 25 years and been on lots of different courses/lessons etc. I’m away on a 2 week riding/instructor course end of the month.
Flat light, slow down and look for shadows on the ground that you can use to turn on. Your not going to be carving, skidded turns will keep your speed down and let’s you “feel” what the conditions are. Try to stay in an area you know, it helps when you know what’s ahead.
I’ve had the weird “don’t know if your moving” scenario, pretty freaky when you think your still and a piste pole hits you at 20mph!
Ice, proper ice is blue and your not going to be turning on it. Go straight and slow/turn on something soft.
Hard pack, compacted snow, again slow down, if your struggling, your riding beyond your ability. There’s little grip available so you need to take it easy with your edges, big turns using as much of the piste as possible, if there’s snow at the piste edges, use that to turn on.
With out sounding patronising, have you had any lessons? I see so many good riders fall apart when the terrain get steeper or conditions aren’t too good. A good solid technique will get you down (in style) any slope.
Just an exercise to try, on a good day, put your hands behind your back, or on your bum and see how long you can keep them there whilst riding. If you can’t, lessons will help.