[Closed] why do car makers not do 4WD drive versions of 'common cars' ?

I don't have anything against 4x4s when they're used for a job but don't like SUVs used as status cars

So do you have some sort of special detector that allows you to identify which are "properly used" and which aren't?

I suspect not and suspect that you simply assume all are "inappropriately used" and therefore worthy only much scorn?

Perhaps "status" SUVS are actually very comfortable, feel safe and are handy for weekends in the countryside?

Oh hang on, maybe these SUV owners have a few quid too? DAMN THEIR SOULS.

I probably wasn't as clear as i should have been:

big 4x4s are completely a fashion thing.

I prefer a car that can get me to the French Alps several times a year and to the woods every morning

It's only recently that they have become common on the continent. In the French Alps and Switzerland - areas/countries that have long periods of cold weather and a lot of snow - it was rare to see big 4x4s even in ski resorts (and they were available - the Range Rover goes back a long way as a luxury car).

They simply are not necessary - the roads are snowploughed and you use winter tyres (and chains). The extra ground clearance an 'off road' 4x4 gives you offers minimal advantage on road - it will get you down a rutted track but as people have posted on here this week it won't get you through a snow drift and it won't get you up a mountain road if there's other traffic.

People still lived and worked in the ski resorts and got around. In all the times I've been to the mountains, summer or winter, or riding in the UK, I've never *needed* a 4x4. Hell - riding a mountain bike you only need to get to the car park.

If you want one because it makes you feel good fine (though i can't help thinking less of you) but I just don't buy it as a *need*.

Garages (even shared ones) are built big enough to store your winter wheels. - not when ther's half a dozen bikes in there

Actually, in the shared, Swiss, apartment garages I've seen the wheels were stored on the wall. The bikes were stored in the clean secure bike storage within the garage with adequate space for a full family of bikes (rather than the 1 per household the UK regs require)

Oh, to Juan....
Some figures for you - though as a researcher you could easily do this yourself and I'd have expected you to:

BMW 5 series: 4899 mm x 1860 mm exc. mirrors, 1790kg
[img] [/img]
Renault Espace: 4661 mm x 1860 mm exc. mirrors 1775 kg
[img] [/img]
Landcruiser Colorado (the big, long wheelbase, 5 door one) 4290 x 1730 mm 1720 kg
[img] [/img]

Seriously, check your facts before complaining. Sure the rangerover and toureg are somewhat bloater-ific, but they're hardly twice the size. The rangerover sport is SHORTER than the 5 series, only wider by 60mm, but is a nice half a ton heavier.

The Colorado is actually the [b]small[/b] Landcruiser. The big one is called the Amazon.

Seriously, check your facts before complaining. 😉

I never said it was bigger than the amazon, or the biggest landcruiser, I said "the big long wheelbase one" - i.e. not the SWB 3 door, otherwise I'd have said "the amazon, bigger than the colorado". Get it right Mat. AWESOMEness lost. And even then then it's only 4890 mm 1940 mm

Actually no because the BIG LONG WHEELBASE LANDCRUISER is called an AMAZON.

Actually no because the BIG LONG WHEELBASE LANDCRUISER is called an AMAZON.

You dumb ass. I said the "the colorado, the long one", not "the long landcruiser". You boob.

<edit> sounds a bit harsh, meant it with a joking smiley :)</edit>

simons nicolai,

If you want one because it makes you feel good fine (though i can't help thinking less of you) but I just don't buy it as a *need*.

I'm not bothered that you now think less of me. Still, you sold me a bike (and made no comment when I put the bike in my 4x4), but all's fair in commerce, eh? And now I know your opinion of me, do you think I'll buy another?

I'll admit that I don't need a 4x4, useful though it is. And thinking about it, I don't need to go skiing, or to drive 800 miles to the Alps. And, after all, no-one needs a £5000 mountain bike (it's all just showing off) and [i]think[/i] of the energy expended in running the skilifts all summer and winter. Hardly environmentally friendly, is it? But still, let's bash the person with the big car. What about the 911 driver - does anyone [i]need[/i] a car that goes 180mph? Have a go at them as well, why don't you.

They simply are not necessary - the roads are snowploughed and you use winter tyres (and chains). The extra ground clearance an 'off road' 4x4 gives you offers minimal advantage on road - it will get you down a rutted track but as people have posted on here this week it won't get you through a snow drift and it won't get you up a mountain road if there's other traffic.

If you knew where my place in France was, you'd look around and see a fair number of 4x4s. But don't let your sweeping generalisations stop you.

The extra visibility from the high driving position would be nice if it wasn't for the way that it blocks the view of smaller cars behind (especially with 'privacy' glass)...

If someone tied low weight, low centre of gravity, good ground clearance, high roll centres and good visibility together with good fuel economy and performance and interior space then that would be nice. But the current build them big, simple and heavy is way more profitable and ticks all the marketing boxes.

Sorry Nick but you're being overly defensive. I wasn't bashing the person with the big car or criticizing the environmental impact of your life choices and I wasn't attacking you personally. Nor was I making sweeping generalisations.

I was simply pointing out that I don't believe the justifications people give for "needing" to own one - I don't believe that most people (maybe you are an exception) could do get where they want to get to in a normal car and gave the evidence that countries like Switzerland didn't previously grind to a halt. There are a stack of 4x4s across Europe now but (and this is a sweeping generalisation) a few years back the rural French got around in a 2CV and the Swiss managed in a VW.

I do have a lot of problems with 4x4s - I ride a bike daily in London and more 4x4s mean narrower usable space on the roads and worse sight lines. Cars have generally got bigger but the Cayennes and Discos are at the upper end of that - they're simply not pleasant to be around as a cyclist. Sure, neither are vans or trucks but nor would it be nice if every vehicle was a Transporter.

When I'm in a car I'd rather hit something with bumpers at the same height as mine rather than something that will ride over the top of my vehicle and if I'm on foot I'd rather be hit by something low that would sweep my over the bonnet rather than smashing my pelvis.

coffeking can you take as much people AND luggage in the amazon/colorado than in on espace?
more fact for you 😉
Range rover: length 4972 mm width (no mirrors) 2034 weight 2580 kg
5 seats
Discovery 4: length 4838 mm width (no mirrors) 2022 weight 2583 kg
5 seats
Explorer length NoW mm width (no mirrors) 2005 weight 1805 kg
5 seats
Range Rover Sport: length 4783 mm width (no mirrors) 2004 weight 2535 kg 5 seats
Audi Q7: length 5089 mm width (no mirrors) 1983 weight 2300 kg
7 seats

And I am sure others are bigger. As you said speed is more important than weight (not that the speed at which cars are driven is any anyway related to the power of the engine) but then you would assume people stick to the speed limit won't you which means the weight is now what makes the difference to the damages occurring in a traffic colision.

If you knew where my place in France was, you'd look around and see a fair number of 4x4s. But don't let your sweeping generalisations stop you.

So do you have some sort of special detector that allows you to identify which are "properly used" and which aren't?

Well I find that usually the type of tyre is a pretty good indicator of what cars goes on road and what car goes off-road.

Well phew - our 110 has Mud and Snow rated General Grabbers. I hope to qualify in your eyes.

In any snow or even heavy rainfall, you NEED a 4x4 to get up our driveway. And to tow our boat from the local slipway. And to Green Lane in. And to drive to various mates farms. And it's brilliant in snow. The list goes on.

Snow chains are rocking my world here, and combined with winter tyres both the Touran and Yaris are taling anything the weather can throw at us, within reason. The day the Landy 110 of colleague was bottoming on the snow was a day not to have bothered with either of them... 🙂

well surf mat i never criticised people that actually use a 4x4 off road. However if it's not something in the lines of a defender or the old pajero they are not much use. Do you thing there is something that has better off road capabilities than a defender?
Plus I am not sure you NEED a 4x4 to get up your driveway. I am sure someone with skills and a pair of winter tyres will probably make it to the top (look at all the historical rally none have 4x4 and they all get to the top and down some pretty steep cols faster than you'll drive up your driveway).

d'oo double post

Juan - add a coating of snow to our driveway (120 yards long, steepest section is 1 in 3 or 33%, sharp corner near the top) you need a 4x4. A snow chained car would probably do it too but that's not that practical for daily driving.

Oh and you get to drive all around the garden (several acres of very sloping land, much of it wooded) in it so you can load up logs from sawn trees, debris, etc). And the little boy loves it too. So maybe not "essential" but damn good fun.

And for the boat towing - a 2WD would simply NOT be able to do it - no questions at all. Too steep a slipway, too slippery. Same with pulling it up on many other beaches.

Our 'driveway' at work is 1 mile of rough, scottish hillside with 90 degree bends and is 1in5 at steepest.
We tow a 24' / 1.2ton drascombe, a 5m RIB, an 8 boat open canoe trailer and all sorts of trailers up there with normal cars, SWB and LWB transits.
I have been using a 2wd, small car with chains this winter with more success than the 110, Freelander and RAV4 that other staff own. Only really deep snow has been stopping me (ie bonnet deep!).

4x4's are the preffered car round here, but they are NOT as good or 'needed' as people make out.

I probably wasn't as clear as i should have been:
big 4x4s are completely a fashion thing.

Your clear as a bell...you resent people being fashionable.

Personally, I'd go for a secondhand Octi 4x4 estate if I could find one, or a Jimni with a bit of work tuning the engine for more torques and a good set of quality M&S tyres, with the suspension lifted a bit for more underbody clearance. I spent a week in South Devon near Kingsbridge, and Jimni's are very popular down there because most of the roads are narrow, twisty and steep. My Octi was a barge around the lanes out of Beesands. Having said that there were a lot of bigger 4x4's as well, but there's a lot of boat owners down there too.

Your clear as a bell...you resent people being fashionable

Wearing your jeans done up below your arse cheeks is fashionable. I don't resent people who dress like that, just think they look like knobs.

last time it happened was the late 80/early 90 when loads of people tried selling them in the uk, ford, peugeot, toyota come to mind.

I'm fairly certain this came about as a direct result of homologating rally cars, the group 'B' monsters spring to mind.
[img] http://www.flickr.com/photos/22099104@N08/3120511485 [/img]

I have been toying with the idea of getting rid of the Focus estate and getting a Honda CRV. This I believe has the Haldex type diff, so most of the time is 2WD switching to 4WD when needed. Good enough for most types of situation ie snow and ice on the roads. Nice driving position and good on tarmac when all of this crappy snow is gone. Just got home tonight after having full snow tyres fitted to the car. There is still 5 to 6 inches of snow and ice on our estate. It was seriously impressive, never lost grip or got stuck once. It just dragged its way through. The Honda may have to wait to see how the car handles the rest of the winter.

why do car makers not do 4WD drive versions of 'common cars' ?

Because most cars don't need to be 4WD. They don't need the traction on or offroad.

Because 4WD's are heavy and use up much more fuel.

Because 4WD's are expensive and sap performance.

Because most people don't want them.

Sponge - don't forget that all bar one model of Lambo is 4WD, as is the Evo, the Impreza, the fastest Audis, etc.

I think a lot of people DO want 4WD after the last two Winters but they don't want to shell out on an extra vehicle. I reckon AWD versions of "normal" cars could do well.

Where I live, most people who drive 4WD's don't need them and wouldn't have a clue how to use them even if they did!

Their sole purpose for buying a huge Chelsea Tractor 4WD (and most of them are) is to make a statement of superiority. To rub other people's noses in it.

I have no truck with people who need a 4wd, who tow, or live in rugged countryside etc.

The incompetent 4WD drivers (of which tere are many) are a menace because those vehicles do far more damage in an accident. Anyone being struck by one has far less chance of survival and much higher risk of injury, whilst the incompetent cock driving and his/her passengers walk away. A 4WD is far more likely to go out of control than a normal road car and far less likely to stop.

In the old days, the term we had for people like this was "poof poseurs".

Those cars epitomise the wastefulness of modern western society.

I'd introduce an additional category to the driving license and an extra test. You would first have to demonstrate you actually need a 4WD and then prove you are competent enough to use one. After learning the differences in handling of an oversized high centre of gravity vehicle, you would learn simple things like how to park and how to behave on public roads in a large vehicle. Then you would move on to safe offroad control techniques and be taught responsible use of unmetalled public roads. Then how to manouvre trailers, on and off road.

This would probably rid our roads of 95% of 4WD's as most would fail at the "learning to park" stage (assuming they could falsely prove their need for a 4WD).

You get awesomely defensive sometimes don't you?
Like nicolai_si (waves) I live work and cycle in London and only a very small percentage of SUVs are bought as tools, although thinking about it they're all bought as tool - to demonstrate quite how oarsum their leasers are.
Why is it that any query over pointless SUVs results in allegations of envy? Like I've said before if I wanted a pointless SUV I could quite easily go out and buy one today, but I'm not going to as I think they're pointless.
Must go I've got a cyclocross course to lay out this afternoon.

There is no envy on my part! I could buy several, for cash, today!

In snow, winter tyres solve the problem far more than a 4WD does. A reasonable compromise. Having a 4WD for just 2 weeks out of 52 is ridiculous.

Nobody needs a performance 4WD car on a public road if they are behaving responsibly! The performance technology of these stock road cars is only needed and should only be used on tracks, either on, or offroad.

Oh deary deary me - "I hate SUVs BUT I COULD BUY TEN NEW RANGE ROVERS TODAY IF I WANTED."

Hmmm - fascinating but maybe a little bit sad?

This thread has gone for a fairly interesting question with some useful answers to a load of bleating old tarts jumping in and having a go but making sure we KNOW they are "loaded" just in case we weren't sure.

I notice very few of these bleating old cronies actually state what this "perfect" car(s) is they own. One with no status issues, no emissions, a footprint the size of a vole, a front end so heavily padded that pedestrians don't even realise they've been run over by one, etc, etc. Get hit by a Range Rover at 50 - you die. Get hit by a Smart car at 50 - you die.

Sad x 10 to the power infinity

Why shouldn't people spend their money on a status symbol?

I'd hanker that the vast majority of Nicolai's (and I own two!) are used on trails that would be perfectly rideable on a halfords special hardtail

Why does everyone need a super duper long travel penis extension expensive bike, one trip to Leith Hill or Swinley Forest and you can see how many bikes are used as status symbols by people who don't "need" them or live in "rugged countryside"

I reckon AWD versions of "normal" cars could do well.

I think the higher road tax, company car tax and fuel consumption would continue to put people off even if we could buy AWD astras, meganes, mondeos here. I reckon there will be a few more winter tyres fitted to regular cars next autumn though.

Fail - I guess so. Most 4WD versions of normal cars (like the Quattro Audis, the 4Motion Golfs, etc) are aimed at the performance end of the range. Be interesting to see how "non performance" AWD versions would do.

Winter tyres for many cars very hard to find - in big demand this year.

Hey I just use our EVIL Land Rover 110 instead. Right tool for the job, etc.

Why shouldn't people spend their money on a status symbol?

I'd hanker that the vast majority of Nicolai's (and I own two!) are used on trails that would be perfectly rideable on a halfords special hardtail

Why does everyone need a super duper long travel penis extension expensive bike, one trip to Leith Hill or Swinley Forest and you can see how many bikes are used as status symbols by people who don't "need" them or live in "rugged countryside"

Chelsea tractor are just plain stupid. They offer no more off road capabilities than a panda 4x4 750 CC engine, they are more dangerous to other people and they have a higher carbon footprint during the building and the running processes than standard cars.

Considering the world is on the verge of an ecological disater, maybe just maybe we should ban them? As they offer nothing to the everdya folk. You leave in a rugged countryside, need to tow stuff. Well you could get a defender or even a lada. I am pretty sure if they were the only big SUV available we will see a lot less of them on the streets.

SurfMat - I spend quite a bit of time in Finland with the inlaws. The Finns are a pragmatic bunch. Winter tyres on a reliable normal car seems to do it for them (along with leaving people a bit of room on crappy roads). From what i've seen there are no more AWD cars on the road there than here, and there are definitely less SUVs. All the builders just use normal vans/lorrys with the correct tyres. If it gets really nasty they just bypass the 4x4 and go straight to the tractor.

Considering the world is on the verge of an ecological disater, maybe just maybe we should ban them?

Whats the logical extension of your argument?

Carbon fibre has a much higher carbon footprint that titanium, aluminium or steel - and inestimably more than bamboo, why don't we ban carbon fibre "status symbol" mountain bikes? Who really [u]needs[/u] a Yeti carbon frame unless they're playing "me me me me look at me" ? they could get by prefectly well on a "ford mondeo bike" like an alloy Specialized hardtail

Or the clothes - surely artificial textiles have a greater footprint than wool, which is it ill used for some base layers, jerseys and socks? Why don't we ban Rapha from making any synthetic clothing, as thats clearly an environmentally damaging status symbol luxury?

I think the higher road tax, company car tax and fuel consumption would continue to put people off even if we could buy AWD astras, meganes, mondeos here. I reckon there will be a few more winter tyres fitted to regular cars next autumn though.

Some manufacturers have addressed that and 4x4's such as the Rav4 have relatively low emissions and get circa 40mpg (according to a colleague at work who has a new one). However, many of the people I know (hangs head in shame 😳 ) have them to tow caravans as the extra bulk/low torque is ideal.

Re winter tyres, you are absolutely right as the prices are now astronomical. I bought mine at £67.50 a corner a few days before the snow hit and the cheapest through the same supplier is now £126.40.

I don't [b]need[/b] a 4x4 but I do [b]have[/b] to get to work and there is no public transport half the time and it is not practical at others. I can also guarantee that I will be shouting at some daft bint in a 4x4 on a daily basis who thinks that her 4x4 is not only as wide as a bus but needs more room.

So...................next year I'm looking for a Scooby Forester 😉

Well I am all for banning carbon mtb and road bike. Base layer are made from recycle plastic bottle so I am not sure the carbon footprint is as high as you think.

As per my OP, and as mat said

I reckon AWD versions of "normal" cars could do well.

Yes, winter tyres on the CMax would be an option, and am sure i could sort out somewhere to store the other ones, and yes, a cheaper option when we come to replace the car next year. My point remains though, as many have said on this thread, that if there was a keenly priced (sub £15K new) AWD/4WD drive Focus type thing available, I would probably buy it as the wife's car.

I got a Suzuki SX4 brochure in the post today too 😆

oh, this on today's BBC website :

[i]Some motorists who fit winter tyres to their car to cope with snow are being charged higher insurance premiums, it has been claimed.

AA Insurance Services says some people have been told to pay up to 20% more.[/i]

According to a car forum I frequent, 2 insurance brokers said it is not necessary to inform the insurance company as long as the wheels remains the same. Changing your tyres is not a modification.

*Disclaimer - I am merely relaying info from people who should know and hold no responsibility if this is tosh