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there used to be a Golf 4 motion, there is an Octavia Scout. I would have thought there would be a market for more of these, esp Polo, Fiesta sized ? Chaeapish to buy, reasonably economical, bit more surefooted in poor weather, more versatile ?
Panda? Subaru justy? I do agree though. Guess a 4x4 system not only costs more but is less efficint? (correct if I'm wrong...)
Because they'd have to more or less redesign 75% of the car to do it for something that they'd only sell very small numbers of.
because winter tires on a regular little car will get you 99% of the places a 4x4 will get you in winter. I used to think this too and still like the idea but its not really needed, suzuki also have the little 4x4.
If you live in Switzerland you can get loads of cars in 4x4…
[url= http://www.bmw.ch/ch/de/insights/technology/xdrive_2010/phase_2/models.html ]http://www.bmw.ch/ch/de/insights/technology/xdrive_2010/phase_2/models.html[/url]
increased weight, reduced economy, increased complexity, reduced cabin space ( transmission tunnel to the rear ), increased purchase price, increased servicing costs, only marginal improvement in handling from a [i]well balanced[/i] 4wd system for 99.99% of normal driving situations for folk not driving at ten tenths on the public highway. if you're thinking current weather conditions then snow tyres go a very, very long way.
yeah, that all makes sense. I still think there would be a market for them, but can see that it would be a pretty costly step for the car manufacturers. Wonder if the whole winter tyre thing will gain momentum with what appears to be worsening winters ?
Loads of normal cars come with 4x4 options?
Loads of normal cars come with 4x4 options?
do they - I am thinking new price sub 15K. Only one I can think of is the Suzuki sx4 ?
you used to be able to get 4wd Mondeo's - you dont now....they did not sell
That's like asking for gold plated cars for sub 15k, it's an added cost, it won't be put on budget vehicles.
ok, maybe a daft idea. Quite fancy that wee SX4 thing for the wife when we change next yr though, but pound for pound a Polo is a better car.....guess I have answered my own question !
because you would have to engineer a new body, tcase, prop, centre diff or haldex type unit, rear diff, rear driveshafts, driven rear hubs and run a whole new calibration for emissions just for a budget car that you are probably selling at a minor loss, and that no-one will buy. the tooling bill alone could literally be 100s of millions.
the likes of vw share platforms with many brands, so they are conceived to be awd to start with, so it is easy to make a vw awd, because there is already an audi version, for example.
New Panda 4x4 is about 11k i think. Odd looking thing though... lacks the charm of the original.
A second set of wheels with snow tyres on would be far far cheaper and better in snow too.
Friends north of Inverness just bought a wee Fiat Panda 4x4, came with M+S tyres and is great on the track up to their house where they have to leave the normal car at the bottom of the road.
Light enough to push too. Sure it would be under 15K.
[img][url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5246/5242406066_92f590cf2e.jp g" target="_blank">
To the op - I'm guessing this is to do with the recent weather and I dont know if this helps at all but we live at the top of a hill (currently - albeit unusually- 12" melting snow) and my SO's folks live on a bigger hill in what seems like permafrost from Nov - April.
We have to run a second car just for the winter. It's to do with her gentle nature. She cant get herself to risk/push/maintain momentum in a new/expensive car or 4x4 up her folks lane. Over the years its changed from screaming when things get slidy to giggling nowadays.
So we've got a car (whose make should not be mentioned on stw) for the nice weather and a crappy nissan with winter tyres for the slidy stuff. She's now happ(ish) letting it drift sideways in the snow - once she's learnt to keep it slow but always moving. She's never been stuck yet - even on slopes that defeat 'gentle' offroaders.
Of course even a gentle 4x4 with winter tyres would be even better - but then she'd get nervous again.
csw - I have a BMW too !! (or is yours maybe an Audi ? 😛 ). It's our main car and my company car, so our second car needs to be relatively inexpensive, safe for running the kids to school and wife to work, and reliable. If there was an option to have this as a handy snowy car (we live in hilly East Kilbride and get a fair amount of difficult conditions, particularly the last bit getting to the house). Her car at presnt is a 3yr old CMax, which is in line to get replaced in a yr by a Polo or Scenic, but if there was a wee cheap safe 4x4 alternative, like the Suzuki or similar it would be a serious contender.
That Panda is pretty cool looking !
That said, the idea of winter tyres is growing on me, particularly as storage options are being offered too for the normal 4 (or is it just the driven 2) tyres
ianc - Yep its a BMW. Our criteria for the second car is simple: fwd. Biggish.ISOfix child seats. Towbar (for the bikes so I can use it the odd time in the summer). Steel wheels (or at least 15 or 16 alloys). Normal sized spare (learnt from experiece). I went looking for a mondeo but couldnt find one that didnt look it was clocked. So I got a one owner primera from a local retired chap for peanuts.
Winter tyres went on - and it's nickname is now SNOWCAT (has to be shouted!) Gets up every hill we come across.
I did run it last year with winters on the front only but this winter we had a real scare having to brake coming down hill in snow. The fronts got lots more traction than the back - so the the back swung around. We couldnt get more winters in stock anywhere so I got some all weather "mud and snow" Bridgestone A001's. They are possibly 80% as good.
Anyway's the key thing for us is confidence. Mrs is a really safe driver but cheap means the difference for her in the snow. If she power slides into the ditch she wont be too worried - she'd get a bigger bollocking for not keeping moving 😉 Dont worry - if she sees someone walking etc she slows and beeps before she hits the gas!
4x4ising a car isn't often that difficult - car designers aren't daft, so there's often enough room to squeeze in a propshaft and diff with relatively few alterations, on the off chance that someone will want to build a 4x4 vehicle on the same platform.
At the really extreme end of the spectrum there's stuff like the Rover 75 - started out as a FWD car with a transverse engine, then they did the V8 version which had RWD and a longitudinal engine. Then they sold approximately 6 of them.
The issue is that there's not really a market for "ordinary" 4x4 cars in the UK.
I'd personally go for winter tyres for winter over a 4x4 for winter. 4x4s are a big compromise and cost for the rest of year.
You can have Quattro on any Audi can't you?
You do not have to have fiddly transmission tunnels, diffs, propshafts etc to make a small 4x4. There re other ways around this issue.
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It's the same reason there's not many normal RWD cars. It's way, way cheaper to make them FWD only.
Because people don't actually want 4wd on an ordinary car that much. What they want is a nice big car which makes them look powerful and keeps little Annabel and Justin safe because it's so big and strong.
i wondered why no-one has thought of using electric for the other pair of wheels, but obviously quite a few people have. Nissan have got e4wd
http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/INTRODUCTION/DETAILS/E-4WD/
If you go into europe or japan loads of normal cars can be had with 4x4.
Even cars like the Suzuki Swift have 4x4 option elsewhere. vw have always offerred a good selection.
BMW is also pushing 4x4 very hard in the States as a safety thing so it might start to catch on over here.
last time it happened was the late 80/early 90 when loads of people tried selling them in the uk, ford, peugeot, toyota come to mind. i think we were to worried about alloys and stereos to both.
Get friendly with the local Suzuki dealer, they are the only ones in it for the long run. Fiat and suzuki share the sx4, the fiat is called a sedici. Had a facelift last year and they then decided to stop selling it due to lack of sales.
Subaru are common, perfectly ordinary cars, and they are all all-wheel-drive, or all we'll drive if you prefer. Now the diesels are available, what's there not to like?
I had one of the Mondeo 4WD in the 90s. Yes, it was a great car, but the added weight, cost, running costs, additional tyre wear etc weren't worth it. Ironically, the only car I've ever written off driving (very sedately) in bad weather.
I've got a impreza sti and while yes they do have a little more traction to get you going. They skid and slide just like any other car when you want to slow down probably more because of the sporty tyres and big brakes. So I have to pootle round when the weather is like it has been, just like everyone else. Winter tyres are the answer not 4wd, but it costs and we may not get a winter like this for another ten years.
They used to, in the late '80s / early '90s. Didn't sell many. You can still get a few more 4WD variants in LHD but there isn't the financial incentive for doing RHD as well. Note that most 4WDs are sold because they're tall, not because they have 4WD - sadly those buying them don't realise that a high centre of gravity is never a good thing on the road - as an unfortunate Grand Cherokee owner discovered yesterday when their inverted car closed two lanes of the A27.
Surpised that Ford don't offer a 4wd focus. Especially for the ST and RS it would make a lot of sense. Plus I gather that the Kuga 4WD shares the same floorplan.
Or just buy an old 4*4 and only use it for the bad weather/runabout etc.
Loads of Discos on autotrader for less than a grand - and as it will be limited miles, get the V8 8)
Amazed that no-one's selling winter 4x4 kits that you could bolt on in November then take off come the spring. Surely it would be easy enough to do and sell really, really well. And it would be a lot cheaper than buying a full-time 4x4. Best of both worlds really, though I suppose storing the bits could be problematic for some. It's really amazing that no-one's done that.
retro83 - Member
Surpised that Ford don't offer a 4wd focus. Especially for the ST and RS it would make a lot of sense. Plus I gather that the Kuga 4WD shares the same floorplan.
exactly - that was kind of where I was coming from on the OP. I'd have thought at a 1.8d Zetec Focus with 4WD would be a seller
Amazed that no-one's selling winter 4x4 kits that you could bolt on in November then take off come the spring. Surely it would be easy enough to do and sell really, really well. And it would be a lot cheaper than buying a full-time 4x4. Best of both worlds really, though I suppose storing the bits could be problematic for some. It's really amazing that no-one's done that.
Many 4wd cars are like that these days, including the Suzuki Sx4. It is FWD the majority of the time, it only engages the rear wheels if the front wheels loose traction. I think the Ford Kuga 4WD version is the same.
Surpised that Ford don't offer a 4wd focus. Especially for the ST and RS
the original press releases said that the RS would be - it was a real shame when it was FWD because of price!
Many 4wd cars are like that these days, including the Suzuki Sx4. It is FWD the majority of the time, it only engages the rear wheels if the front wheels loose traction. I think the Ford Kuga 4WD version is the same.
Where do you store the surplus bits over summer? Are they bulky or designed to be easily stowable, say in a cupboard under the stairs?
EDIT: sorry, I'm being a bit dim, I guess they stow in the boot for rapid access when needed?
You can get 4WD focus's [url= http://www.m-sport.co.uk/index.php/component/mtree/ford-focus-wrc ]here[/url] quite reasonable 😯 with one previous careful owner.
retro83 - Member
Surpised that Ford don't offer a 4wd focus. Especially for the ST and RS it would make a lot of sense.
We Built a proper 4wd Focus RS, the bean counters said no.
Then they resurrected it using a Volvo XC90 Transmission.....got further towards approval but the end result was the same 🙁
On the continent there are a lot of ordinary vehicles available with 4wd.
Renault do a Kangoo 4wd, over here you can get the scenic 4wd which is the same running gear but jazzed up with all the heavy fancy baubles....
In france you can get a Basic Kangoo but with 4wd, which is designed for exactly what the OP was after really...
But having experienced both.......in various alpine seasons, for 90% of the conditions you are talking about, proper snow tyres will suffice, chains on top will get you through most stuff.
4wd (even simple systems like the Golf Syncro) + snow tyres is in another league though 😀
I never got to try it, but a decent handling, lightweight FWD car, on snow tyres, but with a Limited Slip Diff, would be the best comprimise and had i still been doing seasons, thats what I would have built next 😀
As others have said - big 4x4s are completely a fashion thing. Standard cars in 4x4 versions used to be really common in ski resorts but the majority of people who didn't actually live in the resorts got by fine with a second set of wheels with snow tyres and chains in the boot for when needed. Garages (even shared ones) are built big enough to store your winter wheels.
I'd have thought at a 1.8d Zetec Focus with 4WD would be a seller
There's a 4wd Octy, how well do they sell?
Garages (even shared ones) are built big enough to store your winter wheels.
not when ther's half a dozen bikes in there 😆
big 4x4s are completely a fashion thing
No they're not, big 4x4's initially came about when people needed to move/tow/carry large stuff over bad terrain. They've only recently become a fashion thing!
As others have said - big 4x4s are completely a fashion thing.
...and from all I have read on this fourm over the last weeks, I don't see that comment being anything other than a 'jealously' thing. All this hostility towards X5's...where does it come from? I really don't see anything beyond petty bitching directed at people who drive them. What is the problem with someone owning an X5? It's a free country, people can drive what they like.
I don't see that comment being anything other than a 'jealously' thing
I disagree. The poster didn't say anything about not liking 4x4 drivers or cars, so there is no hint of jealousy there. It is correct that 4x4s are a fashion thing. Manufacturers like BMW, Mercedes, Volvo and Lexus all added big 4x4s to their range in the last ten years only because they thought they could market and sell them. For many (not all) 4x4 drivers, they like the image, and want to fit in with the other Mums on the school run.
There isn't a problem with people owning an X5. Buy what you like. It doesn't mean that I have to agree with your choice though, since for me, cars like the X5 are too big and unwieldy and impractical for what a lot of people use them for.
Don't get me started on the X5 driver that cut me up on Monday on the M90 which was completely covered in snow. Some 4x4 drivers don't do the rest any favours. 🙂
It's still a problem on the continent. I live in Switzerland and sure we have X-drive Beemers here and many Audi Quattros but they're e x p e n s i v e...
We're still subject to manufacturer-led specification choices and penny pinching here, which makes it frustrating finding a decent affordable 4x4. There's a Golf GT diesel for example, but you can't get that with 4WD, only the gutless diesel gets it. Similarly, the Octavia RS is 2WD only when the 4WD offerred lower down the range would make it an epic car here.. SEAT have launched the Exeo which is basically the last model Audi A4 but it's not available in 4WD at all...
An Bean says, BMW do an AWD version of the 3 series (one of the worst snow cars ever made) but BM decided not to sell it here. It's heavy (REALLY heavy), worse on fuel and jacked up like an SUV so for the image conscious, it doesn't "look" cool.
I've had an AWD (note NOT 4WD) Golf - an R32 - it gripped like merde to a blanket on wet or dry roads but still struggled in ice/snow - fat, low profile tyres, lots of torque were the major factors.
Also a lot of 4WD is AWD - it's part time 4WD (often called Haldex) and so power goes from 100% FWD to 50/50 front and rear. This system is pretty fuel efficient and cheapish to install but doesn't have the ultimate grip in snow/ice of "proper" 4WD as found on the like of top end Audis (even the TTRS and new RS3 still use Haldex), Subarus and Evos.
Some SUVs use AWD systems and it's never as good as "proper" Torsen (or similar) 4WD. I think the Kuga uses it as do many other soft roaders.
For decent snow performance you need full time 4WD and a lockable central diff. And proper tyres. None of which are trendy, they cost a lot, they guzzle fuel and often make emissions silly.
Our 57 reg 122bhp Land Rover Defender 110 has emissions higher than many supercars but is probably one of the best snow/ice cars you can possibly buy. For most, £435 a year on road tax is just too much to swallow. Stick 4WD in "normal" cars and the emissions go right up, the MPG suffers, all for a few weeks a year of snow.
Just to add to that, I ran an R32 (MkIV) here for four years and with winter tyres I never had a problem, never found a road I couldn't drive up or down. In some case the torque was useful 'cos I could pull away in 3rd gear if I wanted to... 🙂
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For many (not all) 4x4 drivers, they like the image, and want to fit in with the other Mums on the school run
Agreed...but why all the hostility? I don't see people gloating on forums about people with fashionable shoes/handbags/trousers getting stuck in the snow ( i know this was part of another thread, but hey).
Bean - mk4 here too. Black, 3 door, full leather, etc - loved it but when we moved to Bristol, it became a hideous thief magnet so had to move it on. Never put Winter tyres on mine (most of the time we had it, we lived in the Docklands) but it definitely didn't cope as well in snow as expected. Brilliant in all other conditions.
Iainc, as far as I can see no one has mentioned the skoda yeti yet. About 16k for the 4x4, though its 4k cheaper for the 2wd.
I also wonder what is stopping someone marketing an electric assist wheel/hub assembly. Run directly from the (uprated) alternator so no batteries, flip as switch and they could use a sensor to match the speed of the front wheels.
Last week my wife was collected in one of the work vehicles, a Defender 110. But then again, she works for the British Red Cross - it's when everything falls apart due to snow, floods, etc, that it's critical that they keep working! Our hill was impassable in a normal car and this suitably tyred Land Rover didn't spin a single wheel...
There's a huge variety of 4WD systems on the market, many of which use Torsen and Haldex diffs, as well as conventional diffs with electronic or mechanical diff locks. Some use the brakes as a substitute diff lock, which can work quite well with reduced cost/weight/complexity. Some are part-time, some are not. Many are variable torque split.
Excepting one special edition, every Lamborghini has been 4WD for about a decade. I'd still rather drive a Fiat Panda in the snow! 4WD is all very well and good for getting you up snowy hills - but no better at getting you down them unless you have a low ratio box and diff locks for low speed engine braking.
What would be useful is a switch to defeat the ABS, as some Audis used to have. That makes a real difference in stopping ability in snow.
You can turn the ABS off in a "Puma" 110 (the XS has ABS and traction) pretty easily. Switchable ABS is pretty useful.
Some SUVs use AWD systems and it's never as good as "proper" Torsen (or similar) 4WD
Except when it comes to fuel economy.
Agreed...but why all the hostility? I don't see people gloating on forums about people with fashionable shoes/handbags/trousers getting stuck in the snow ( i know this was part of another thread, but hey).
Flash handbags and shoes don't really affect anyone else over normal handbags and shoes. Oversized cars use up more resources, pollute more, get in people's way, and are often (not always of course) found indulging in anti-social behaviour like parking too close to the line thereby taking up two spaces etc.
That's why there's hostility.
What would be useful is a switch to defeat the ABS, as some Audis used to have. That makes a real difference in stopping ability in snow.
How so? What would you do that ABS doesn't do?
spooky - yeti is a definite contender, although closer to 18K I think in 4x4 guise.
Abs can be over sensitive, brake pedal goes solid when you would be better just to lock all four wheels. Especially in snow, when locking the wheels means you dig into the snow rather than chattering over the top as the abs does its thing.
Oversized cars use up more resources, pollute more, get in people's way, and are often (not always of course) found indulging in anti-social behaviour like parking too close to the line thereby taking up two spaces etc.
'Oversize' is your opinion, they are smaller than Vans, bigger than Mini's, who's to say that's oversized? Pollute more, I don't read anybody complaining about the Defneders so revered here. Getting in peoples way? I really don't see how a car being higher makes any difference? Nobody complains about estate cars.
TBH, all types of cars can be driven by idiots, I think people notice more when it's a SUV, and IMHO, that's rooted in jealousy.
you used to be able to get 4wd Mondeo's - you dont now....they did not sell
you still can, mazda 6 is on the same platform.
'Oversize' is your opinion, they are smaller than Vans, bigger than Mini's, who's to say that's oversized?
It's bigger than is necessary, and bigger than average. So yes, oversized.
Pollute more, I don't read anybody complaining about the Defneders so revered here
You're new then, I've lost count of the number of flame wars I've started by mentioning it. and it's a fact that they pollute much more per mile than the average car, you can't really defend that (no pun intended)
As for jealousy - if I were a multi millionaire I'd not buy one for daily driving because they're stupid unless you actually need offroad or high load towing capability. Big SUVs give an impression that the owners think 'bigger is better' which is generally a pretty silly thing to think.
And they get in the way because they are very wide and as such, when parked up they take up more road or pavement than normal cars. There's a Range Rover on our road that is always in the way.
Lodious - LOL (at jealousy comment)!
Mol - ABS is brilliant in all situations except snow/ice. The sensors just cannot cope with it. They are designed to pulse when the brakes wants to skid so stopping it. But in snow/ice, it's doing it all the time so you end up with a "dead" brake pedal. ABS is better than humans in all situations but rallying and snow/ice.
As for the comments about them being awful for the environment/anti social, how about these?
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You don't see many Priuses or Passats being an essential tool to rescue, humanitarian and animal protection organisations do you?
Your arguments are SO weak yet you spout them time and time again.
Maybe tell farmers they shouldn't use Landies/tractors - they should actually use some ponsy hybrid that gets them nowhere? Then have a go at buses which often emit 100 times more CO2 than a car - do any carry 100 people? No.
Just give it a rest for once.
Read my post again, particularly this part:
they're stupid [b]unless you actually need offroad or high load towing capability[/b]
Give me some credit please mate and stop inventing straw men.
its also worth noting that 4wd makes cars a lot slower, and on something the size of a focus, would rob a lot of interior space. The rear end of a car like that would have to be re-engineered to allow for a diff, halfshafts and so on
on the center diff side of things. a awd car with a braking e-diff (basically one that applies brakes to the wheels to make them turn) should be just as effective on the snow. I don't see how a locking diff would improve things
What about for getting round in the snow? What if you have 3 kids and a dog? What if you just like the high up driving position (which a lot of women appear to be keen on)?
Maybe more than you think DO need to tow stuff or go offroad? A shiny 4WD does NOT mean an on road only 4WD. A school run 4WD may also be used to tow a boat/horse box/whatever.
But no, you assume that EVIL mother in that Range Rover is simply a selfish, road hogging pariah that needs slinging in prison for daring to make such a WRONG choice.
Hey, maybe the raised view and strong construction makes her feel safer? Maybe the large carrying capacity, upright seating position and general ruggedness is useful for her?
I never see a car (extreme chav cars excepted) that makes me angry like 4x4s do with you. Something is wrong and I suspect there may be more to it than some pious views on being green.
Here we go........... 🙁
Maybe more than you think DO need to tow stuff or go offroad? A shiny 4WD does NOT mean an on road only 4WD. A school run 4WD may also be used to tow a boat/horse box/whatever.
You've no idea how many I assume. I said that IF you don't need it then it's stupid. I'm not going around swearing and hating anyone I see in a 4x4.
What about for getting round in the snow?
Snow tyres are better, and a normal 4x4 saloon or estate with snows even better.
What if you have 3 kids and a dog?
MPV.
Mat, can I just explain something. You really don't understand my thinking very well. So it's better not to judge me based on what you THINK I am trying to say.
Big SUVs give an impression that the owners think 'bigger is better' which is generally a pretty silly thing to think.And they get in the way because they are very wide and as such, when parked up they take up more road or pavement than normal cars. There's a Range Rover on our road that is always in the way.
Actually Mol, it's you - you simply rant about 4x4s in such a pathetic manner that you constantly contradict yourself.
On this subject, you couldn't fight your way out of a paper bag.
What you clearly state above is that you pretty much think every 4WD is bought simply because it's big. They take up too much room. And so on and so on but despite having NO interest in 4x4s, you still jump in on every thread about them and bleat about emissions and how anti social they are.
You rant about fast cars being pointless too - yet the fastest car you have driven in your 140bhp Passat... So how do you KNOW they are pointless?
Hey I don't like football - do I jump in on every thread and moan about it? No.
I suggest you do the same and save us 4x4 users a lot of wasted typing.
I still don't understand why anyone would buy a car for what other people think of it. I buy my cars for what I like about them. The way I think it looks, the way I like it's handling etc. I don't give a flying fig whether it's considered a status symbol etc, and I wish other people didn't jump to such conclusions and were able to see that not everyone with X type of car is Y type of person. The problem is that, while people SAY they do consider that some people may use whatever type of car properly, in general the animosity vented towards the target vehicle is still present.
Agreed...but why all the hostility?
maybe something to do with the safety? small cars don't stand much chance against a huge 4x4 in a crash.
We are all consumers. While some of our consumption is basic and driven by need, quite a lot is fashion led. People seem to like big SUVs, they are a fashionable vehicle. They also fit in nicely with our obsession for conspicuous consumption.
When 4x4s are being used as a tool they won't make anyone angry, when they are being used by a tool to show how much money they have then that will wind people up.
5lab - Member
its also worth noting that 4wd makes cars a lot slower, and on something the size of a focus, would rob a lot of interior space. The rear end of a car like that would have to be re-engineered to allow for a diff, halfshafts and so on
4wd Focus lost no interior space, no re-engineering of the shell was required, to the occupants it was a normal Focus.
As for the torque biasing diff / Brake stability control...... you need to drive both to understand....
A proper Diff is way better
TBH, for most people, a Haldex type AWD set up is safer and easier, as its more familiar....
Its like a FWD car with more grip when you need it....
A 4wd car on snow is a bit of a handful if you dont know what you are doing and "pressing on" especially with a lockable centre diff, whereas the AWD still feels like a FWD car and will still behave more predictably for most people.
[b]Faux[/b] 4x4's wind me up because I struggle to see past their bonnet when pulling out of a parking space at the local Tesco's.
There. I've said it. 😉 😀
If a car is a certain shape/size due to a requirement then I don't have an issue (whether it's 2WD or 4WD). If it is purely down to being fashionable, which I believe most of it is, then it does get my goat (new, non-sweary indication of annoyance).
They also often park across 2 parking spaces (either intentionally or not) which cheeses me off, and are much more intimidating when tailgating compared to something like a Mondeo, which is perhaps a similar footprint.
You also rarely get tailgated by a Shogun/Defender/Patrol/Disco, but often do by X5s/Q7s/Toerags/RR Sports etc. so the driver's of these vehicles definitely seem to drive differently to those in 'proper' 4x4's, indicating perhaps it is a status symbol or some kind of 'get out of my way' indicator.
Just so you know, I don't think it's a 'jealous' thing, as I don't feel the same way towards driver's of Aston Martin's, Audi RS4 Avants, Gallardos, Maserati Quattroportes etc. all of which I would much rather get my mitts on than Chantelle & Gav's X5.
Molgrips, I have not one but two 4wds. So sue me.
I like the driving position, the size, the fact that I can take 7 people. I could drive a Galaxy and get the same except:
1 Galaxies are horrible, with really cheap interiors
2 I prefer a car that can get me to the French Alps several times a year and to the woods every morning
3 My Disco appeals to me more. It looks good, it has some really good kit, and I've never had a situation I couldn't handle in it. I have in many other cars.
I really don't care if people want to have a go at me on this; how many of you use shedloads of fuel by flying on your summer holidays, or have inefficient houses that use more energy than they should? How many people buy food that's travelled halfway around the world, or clothes produced by the sweat of the poorest and the most expolited in the world?
But no, it's easy to pick on the 4x4 owner; really, it's the politics of envy. An X5 may be a ludicrous car to drive round Central London with, but probably no more consumptive than, say, an S-Class.
Thing is that the X5 is an obviously expensive car, however, which is what drives most of the haters, not the consumption.
TBH, for most people, a Haldex type AWD set up is safer and easier, as its more familiar....
Its like a FWD car with more grip when you need it....
A 4wd car on snow is a bit of a handful if you dont know what you are doing and "pressing on" especially with a lockable centre diff, whereas the AWD still feels like a FWD car and will still behave more predictably for most people.
very much the point of my OP. longest post I've ever had too ! some real sense along with some less so too 😀
Nick - believe me, I've been there time and time again. The righteous one will still crash all 4x4 threads with his green eco nonsense.
FYI he does a massive commute and flys a lot... 😆
What if you have 3 kids and a dog?
Picasso, 806, espace, plenty of car big enough, not taking twice the space, and not being an absolute danger in case of crash.
As for the upright position this is one of the biggest marketing "I need" I have ever seen.
Plus it's not like you could really go off road with one of them.
Plus it's not like you could really go off road with one of them.
What, with an offroad capable 4x4?
FYI, there is a nasty, narrow RH bend on the approach to my village. In the "low" BM, I can't see around it until very late in the bend. In the Landy, I can see over it far far earlier. Which makes it a much safer corner to take. So the upright position can actually be very useful.
Living and working in west London I'd say 99% of all SUVs i see every day have never been off road, a sizeable number have probably only been outside the M25 once (ie when they were imported from South Carolina or Germany if that's where you'd choose to believe they were made) and many won't tow horse boxes (or whatever). The majority are used to drive 5 or 6 miles with a small child in and then pavement parked outside cafe rouge.
I'm not especially envious of them - if I wanted to I could order a RRSport this afternoon and pay for it next week, however, I don't want to as I think they're rather pointless objects. The majority of X5/X6/X3/X1/Q8/XC90/RR/Cayenne etc etc are fashion statements, or "keeping up with the Smythes" cars not tools to do a job.
I don't have anything against 4x4s when they're used for a job but don't like SUVs used as status cars, and as for querying S-class Mercs - they're all taxis round here and driven in an appropriate style.
Juan, come and measure the footprint of my Disco versus a 5-series estate. It's the same length, and only a few centimetres wider.
Twice the space?
Picasso, 806, espace, plenty of car big enough, not taking twice the space, and not being an absolute danger in case of crash.
Most 4x4's are not notably bigger than any of those. Many are higher. and many are a bit (but not much) heavier. If you want to argue about danger in a crash, argue about speed - impact energy goes up with the square of speed but only proportional to mass and many things like 5 series BMWs are approaching the same mass as a medium-sized 4x4 these days.
As for the upright position this is one of the biggest marketing "I need" I have ever seen.
If you've ever driven one you'll realise its a lovely thing, up high everything is somewhat more chilled and easily observed. You can spot things going on up ahead, over hedges etc, far sooner. The opposite would be my sporty car where you're sat on the floor virtually and seeing over/around other cars is virtually impossible. Seeing over hedges, or even small garden walls/old women with shopping bags is impossible. In that car everything is reactive, I can't see the car approaching the junction over the hedge so I have to be much more aware of things "appearing" from nowhere.
But each to his own.