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I was looking at the post about removing the fireplace and not wanting the house to fall down and when I see centimetres mentioned I immediately think blue peter or schoolteachers definitely not building trade experience.
It's either millimetres or metres and no confusion and you may have guessed Im in the trade
So have centimetres got any use anywhere
It's a bigger sounding number than using inches. If you need that.
It's what's taught in school innit.
I learned in CM, but as a woodworker, I use MM....and CM.....and inches.....and feet.... and fathoms... whatever people say to me I have to convert.
Mostly MM makes sense I think.
Feet and inches can bugger off...
It's a bigger sounding number than using inches. If you need that.
True, people don't seem to like to say seven hundred and fifty millimetres, and would rather say seventy five centimetres... It's ok, but it'll generally tell you that they are not in the trade.
try decimal feet..
Real Estate is such a backward industry, much of it is still quoted in square feet and acres.
10.7639 is a number I have to use v often 😉
[i]try decimal feet.. [/i]
It's only people in Norfolk that still have to use base 12 when using their feet...
Surely if they say 'millimetres' and not 'mil', they're obviously not in the trade?
When you buy timber, very often it's bought in Imperial, because it's imported from the States etc, but when you start cutting it up it's in MM...
Crazy world...
I used millimetres to get the point across but definitely 750 mil never 75 whatevers, as for imperial I did get both at school but it's a useless measure too although I like miles and 32" for jeans
Inches really screwed my head when doing my apprenticeship was told by the tradesman to cut stuff in inches "cut it 6 3/8" loon " WTF is that in mm? 😕
At work we don't even use metres half the time as a lot of what we do is measured to the mm.
10.7639 is a number I have to use v often
Or 0.929
For some reason when we (ie the UK) adopted the Metric system in the early 70s, someone thought it better to measure buildings in millimetres. So, as a consequence, everything I do is designed in millimetres. Except for all the rail and transport infrastructure stuff I do which is in metres.
In mainland Europe, however, they use centimetres. This causes endless amusement in my office as I ask them how big something is and they say 60, and I have to say "is that 600?, or sometime 60,000?) Seeing as they also use metres.
My assumption is that using millimetres means never using a decimal point, as buildings aren't able to be built to tolerances that would require the use of half millimetres.
Sixteenths of an inch are the way forward.
Too early to mention Brexit in this thread?
A bit like MTB & road bike sizing. One usually imperial, the other usually metric....When you buy timber, very often it's bought in Imperial, because it's imported from the States etc, but when you start cutting it up it's in MM...
Crazy world...
Confuses the hell out of me.
My assumption is that using millimetres means never using a decimal point
Yes. Imagine what consequences a decimal point in the wrong place could have.
So have centimetres got any use anywhere
Them europeans seem use them all the time. Foreigners aside if people give me measurements in CMs - especially in suspiciously whole numbers- its usually a good sign that they've not really given too much attention to taking the measurements. I find if people take measurements for things that needs to fit in MM and if they estimate sizes of things where proportions and scale matter in ft and inches then they can usually be trusted.
"453mm" Trusted
"45cm" [i]NOT TRUSTED[/i]
"about 12ft tall" Trusted
"about 4inches" Trusted
Centimeters seem to be the preserve of people who don't really know what they are asking for, or don't really know how to ask for it
Centimeters seem to be the preserve of people who don't really know what they are asking for, or don't really know how to ask for it
Ouch, but I like that 😉
I tend to think of my metric height in cm rather than mm or m.
Ouch, but I like that
Kinky
Surely if they say 'millimetres' and not 'mil', they're obviously not in the trade?
Depends on the trade - you can expect someone who [i]says[/i] "Mil" to mean millimetres. But if they write it as 'Mil' they might actually mean a thousandth of an inch.
Sixteenths of an inch are the way forward.
Presumably you're embarking on a pretty short journey.
"are we there yet?"
"just a few barleycorns to go"
Usage seems to be metres as the base then up or down by three orders of magnitude so nanometres (10 ^-9), micrometres (10^-6), millimetres (10^-3), metres(10^0) and Kilometres(10^3)
When you buy timber, very often it's bought in Imperial, because it's imported from the States etc,.
Annoyingly sheets are in imperial but lengths of timber - certainly with building timber - its in the nearest metric equivalent to imperial -so a '16ft' length is actually 4.8m and about 3 inches short of a full 16ft. So if you're framing for something that going to be clad in 8x4 sheets the lengths are too short to cut and divid efficiently. I have to frame up dozens and dozens of 8x4 sheets making film flattage and you have to be careful not to get left with lots of nearly-long-enough scrap
but when you start cutting it up it's in MM
I only buy fully metric tape measures as I get annoyed working in tight spaces when you can only work from one side of the tape. You quickly get used to counting in Base 610 though
It's what's taught in school innit.
No not really. Science uses m,mm, micro metres and nm. 1000 each time. cm are pointless and annoying. I guess they are used because people could compare them easily to inches and its stuck.
Thou surely? In the classic car world I've mostly (always?) seen it written and Thou (and said accordingly)But if they write it as 'Mil' they might actually mean a thousandth of an inch.
Thou surely?
Americans call 'Thous' "Mils" for some unfathomable* reason
I'm unsure what the nearest metric equivalent is for an "unfathom" is though
It's what's taught in school innit.
No not really. Science uses m,mm, micro metres and nm
Whoa there - You're running before you can walk - by "school" I think we're referring to primary school.
If someone gives you measurements in CM its because they've not had rummage through the draw for the 6" wooden ruler they used to have in their furry pencil case along with a compass they only every stabbed people with and a collection of smelly rubber that now all smell the same.
I use a horrible mix of measurements, depending on what I'm measuring.
mile -> metre -> inch -> mm -> bawhair
Bring back imperial measures - can't imagine that the death star's dimensions were expressed in millimetrics.
Links, chains, rods, poles and perches in the post-brexit world.
I hate when people mix measurements as that gets v. confusing, eg: 6 inches + 3mm when cutting something. Yards also add another element of WTF.
It's normally the closest integer on the tape measure, generally diy though.
I hate when people mix measurements as that gets v. confusing, eg: 6 inches + 3mm when cutting something. Yards also add another element of WTF.
My brother used to work with a joiner who did that.
My bugbear is people who incorrectly use uppercase for prefixes. MM isn't mm.
Only dressmakers use cm according to my old teacher.
It's all microns and nanometers in my trade 🙂
What grinds my gears is thickos who don't know what a prefix is 😉My bugbear is people who incorrectly use uppercase for prefixes. MM isn't mm.
I work for an American engineering company, so its's a mix of mm, microns, inches and 'thou.
That continues right through to all other units - pressure, temp, power, energy - you name it and we've a right old mix.
Not a single cm to be seen though.
As a site carpenter whether I use imperial or metric usually depends on which way round I'm holding the tape measure, ie, if I'm measuring from the right-hand side of the tape it comes out as imperial, but if I'm measuring from the left-hand side of the tape comes out metric.
As a consequence I often mix imperial and metric dimensions for the same item.
Personally I generally prefer imperial as I find the numbers much easier to remember.
Of course with imperial measurements I'm including the indispensable "gnat's bollock", e.g. thirteen and three-quarters plus a gnat's bollock.
There's no such thing as a gnat's bollock with metric.
I work with a lot of Americans, use a lot of wires, rope and chain.
They still use Imperial, which means the sizes relate to the circumference. Not a very intuitive system. Especially if you want to convert to metric which references the diameter.
Most peeps seem happy with the cm when talking about car engine size - where 1000 cm³ (or cc) = 1 litre.
I'm an engineer and I find the cm abhorrent for linear measurements
What I hate most is the continental preference to express torque in daNm instead of plain Nm.
Depends on the trade - you can expect someone who says "Mil" to mean millimetres. But if they write it as 'Mil' they might actually mean a thousandth of an inch.
This does my nut in. We work in mm and microns, but a lot of our CAD tools (an materials) are from the USA with mil (what I would call thou) as the default setting. So we say mil and that's fine for mm but when the merkins say mil they mean thou and we all get in a tizzy.
I was taught in the mid-90s not to use cm.
I use mm generally, it keeps things simple at work and annoys the wife at home.
mils are milliradians, so a unit of angles, just to confuse things a bit more.
I build buildings entirely in mm.
My bike has 150mm forks and a 5" rear shock 🙄
When you buy timber, very often it's bought in Imperial, because it's imported from the States etc,.
Standard timber sizes are based on un-machined size in imperial units - doesn't have to be imported.
Annoyingly sheets are in imperial
Not always (quite unusual around here) - A few years ago I put up framing for a stud wall based on 8' x 4' sheets and ordered the same from the BM. Fixed the first sheet and thought my first stud was a bit out. Went to fix the second sheet and it missed the stud completely - the sheets were 2400 x 1200mm, not 8' x 4'. BM's response: "Yes, they're metric eight by fours".
We also get the 'Mil' = 0.001" and "Mil" = mm confusion with 'murricans. They often use both senses in the same conversation.
Centimetres are for dressmakers only 😉
I've seen volumes quoted in dm^3 which is an even weirder unit save that it is 1L so keeps the nomenclature of the units in check. I've yet to understand why in some applications at work we measure things in McP (megacenti-Poise).
cm works in plenty of applications. Accuracy to mm not needed/possible and values of less than 1m being and example.
[I]I use a horrible mix of measurements, depending on what I'm measuring.[/I]
+1
Same with weights, and liquids.
Not always (quite unusual around here) - A few years ago I put up framing for a stud wall based on 8' x 4' sheets and ordered the same from the BM. Fixed the first sheet and thought my first stud was a bit out. Went to fix the second sheet and it missed the stud completely - the sheets were 2400 x 1200mm, not 8' x 4'. BM's response: "Yes, they're metric eight by fours".
Plywood is pretty much always in full imperial sizes - but OSB is a devil for this. Different thicknesses of OSB from the same manufacturer / supplier vary between full 8x4 (24[b]4[/b]0 x 12[b]2[/b]0) and metri-perial (24[b]0[/b]0 x 12[b]0[/b]0). Plasterboard tends to be metri-perial too.
I'm a professional measurist. I measure, therefor I am.
My favourite unit of measurement is the gorota / yojana (two languages, same thing).
The gorota (yojana, etc.) is defined as 'the distance over which you can hear a cow moo'...
I use decimetres 'cos I'm cool & edgy.
Measurment and precision are 2 very different things, cm is a perfectly valid unit and useful for a lot of things, must be those imperial simpletons who can't remember to x or / by 10.
For instance there are very few occasions where I need to know your height in mm as unless I'm going to use a laser to cut your hair it an be too precise though by using a decimal I can magically express it as the same number.
i use cm a lot but I am a foreigner . 😉
There are two basic metric systems - CGS and MKS. MKS is the more usual one (also known as SI).
Looking into CGS units of measure - I now have a new favourite.
'A Darcy' is a unit used in the measure of permeability. And not, as I had previously been led to believe, a unit of bra size or of the frequency of appearance of bravissimo adverts.
I've yet to understand why in some applications at work we measure things in McP (megacenti-Poise)
'Cos the Poise is the preferred unit for viscosity for loads of industries, but it's based on the dreaded [b][i]centimeter[/i][/b] 😀 (the CGS unit system), and it's a factor of 10 different from the same measurement in SI units (1 Poise = 0.1 Pascal seconds), offering endless scope for wrong things to happen.
My industry has have ended up using deciPascal seconds so that the measurements are numerically the same in SI units (1 dPa s = 1 Poise). I guess your industry has gone the other way : 1 centiPoise = 0.001 Pa s)
So you could have mega-Pascal-seconds (MPa s) instead of megacentipoise, but I guess everyone associates centipoises with viscosity and expects to see those units - I guess you probably know this 😉
I have customers who ask for signs in the universal measurement unit which is the A4 piece of paper.
Yep, half A4 sized sign please, or twice the size of an A4 please...
In these cases I would prefer cm's or inches.
I glad someone has raised thus important units issue. As said before if some gives me a size in cm I don't trust it as they'll likely have no engineering / practical knowledge.
I have no idea how the US functions in inches, its so backwards. Mind you other Europeans probably think the same of us using miles for driving. And WTF is car consumption here measurement in mpg still, I don't even know how many litres are in a gallon!
There's no litres in a gallon, just 8 pints.
Imperial gallon or US gallon?
I glad someone has raised thus important units issue. As said before if some gives me a size in cm I don't trust it as they'll likely have no engineering / practical knowledge.
Does it matter though? If all other units are in cm to quote in mm is just being an arse. How much precision do you need? My KS Lev asks for a specific mm of cable showing at the point where it is clamped for very good reason, other times a few cm is adeqaute to convey the required information.
Convention has led to certain units of a fantastic system where conversion is as simple as moving a decimal place. I have building drawings in mm FFS, all I need it the length KM would probably do. There seems little need measuring a screen size in mm unless it's a tiny phone or super critical (may be when ordering a cover or glass but not so much when comparing 2 TV's in a shop)
4.55 or 4.45 US IIRC
How many hp to a PS?
Inches really screwed my head when doing my apprenticeship was told by the tradesman to cut stuff in inches "cut it 6 3/8" loon " WTF is that in mm?
I was the same, metric in school but all my tradesmen were in their 50s and 60s. I now work imperial all the time and if something pops up in mm i have to convert it in my head, I just seem to have a mental block with metric these days.
I work in a college as a technician and get a lot of students from other courses coming and asking me for mdf etc cut to size.
Always weird getting 16 year olds asking for stuff in inches... Where'd they get that from?...
Do they just think I'm old enough to need it written in inches to understand it? 😆
I don't get the cm hate - and I'm an engineer (there, I've said it), so the only correct unit of linear measurement is the m if you want to get all snobbish about measurement units. As already mentioned above, a cm is a fine unit if that's the required precision. Clearly if you require mm precision then it's silly to use decimal cm, but then are the metric-imperial 8x4s discussed above actually 1200mm long rather than 1199mm? TBH if you're a decent engineer (or tradesman) you should be able to cope with converting units if you're working in a country which still uses a mix (though thankfully if you're working in engineering you don't get the mess they have in the US and imperial is nowhere to be seen - even if when I did engineering workshops the instructors still talked about thous when all the machines were metric). I'm not sure how much I'd trust somebody unable to cope with a cm measurement - if I'm asking for something 45cm long it's because I don't care that much if it's 449mm or 451mm.
[quote=TheDTs ]I have customers who ask for signs in the universal measurement unit which is the A4 piece of paper.
Yep, half A4 sized sign please, or twice the size of an A4 please...
In these cases I would prefer cm's or inches.
Hmm, isn't half A4 A5 and twice A4 A3? If it helps at all half A4 is 0.03125m² and twice A4 is 0.125m² 😉
A4? Bring back the old imperial paper sizes. Double Elephant anyone?
As mikewsmith says, I don't get the problem with cm.....
If I'm measuring up for a bit of DIY, I'll probably use cm to gauge how much board I'll need to cover a panel, for example. So, going to B&Q with a note that says I need a piece of MDF to cover at least 152x87cm is perfectly valid. I know in my head that it's 1520x870mm or 1.52x0.87m but for the size concerned 152x87 is sensible in my head.
When I get it home & need to trim it to size, I'll then measure & cut to mm.
It's just using the appropriate measurement for the task.
Obviously you need to be careful if there are industry/company standards. At work, I wouldn't create a drawing in cm because everything is done in mm.
All this talk of not trusting someone to know what they are on about unless they are dealing in m or mm is nonsense.
At previous places I've worked, you'd look like a bit of an idiot if you stuck to m or mm, where nozzles were measured in microns & drop size measured in picolitres. If you started blurting things out in mm & litres it wouldn't really be appropriate. A drop landing accuracy of 6 microns is a lot more sensible than 0.006mm.
Going back to my original post it was about the building trade eg, 1.550 or 1550 but definitely never 155 or microns or even chuck in a decametre look that one up.
I will stick, cms should be dropped like the 1p
I had to Google that one.I've yet to understand why in some applications at work we measure things in McP (megacenti-Poise).
Really wish I hadn't now. My head hurts.
As said before if some gives me a size in cm I don't trust it as they'll likely have no engineering / practical knowledge.
Eh? I'm not in 'the trade' but wouldn't you just use the different units as needed/appropriate? I don't see what's wrong with saying 76cm rather than 760mm if that's what the figure is.
Is it more that in your line of work numbers that can be converted to cm with no loss of precision are rare?
All this talk of not trusting someone to know what they are on about unless they are dealing in m or mm is nonsense.
Its not nonsense or snobbery its lived experience from people who make things - in your own example your giving size to the nearest whole centimetre. Thats fine if it its 'enough to cover' in which case a CM is a reasonable roughcut to work from - but a whole centimetre is a large margin of error for something that has to fit.
I'm not in 'the trade' but wouldn't you just use the different units as needed/appropriate? I don't see what's wrong with saying 76cm rather than 760mm if that's what the figure is.
Using different units depending upon "feel" means that you have no common ground, and nothing makes sense. Building are designed in millimeters, if you were to dimension them in mm, cm & m then you'd not be able to build it.
I've taken people out on surveys and ended up having to take the tape off them and make them hold the dumb end because they a) can't read out numbers properly, and b) aren't consistent.
Building are designed in millimeters, if you were to dimension them in mm, cm & m then you'd not be able to build it.
Why couldn't you, if the numbers are correct and units are given rather than assumed?
More seriously, I take your point that in practice that's obviously not a good idea. If your field has a standard then you might wonder what's going on when someone doesn't follow it.
But saying you would assume someone has no practical knowledge if they use cm still sounds a but much to me.
All this has got me thinking of Spinal Tap's Stonehenge 😆
Why couldn't you, if the numbers are correct and units are given rather than assumed?
You could, but if I were you I'd add a large piece of risk to cover the mistakes and re-ordering of stuff that doesn't fit.
Hmm, isn't half A4 A5 and twice A4 A3?
That was the point!
Like ahwhiles I'm a professional metrologist, working in calibration and testing laboratories for 'ahem' years. It doesn't bother me what units you want it in. I'll measure it how I want and oonvert.
What really annoys me is people arguing that Lbf.in is the same as inlbs. Wee at simmering point...
Don't get me started on people who don't know that measurements should be stated WxHxD. Had to work on a client document today that had all 3 ways as well as CMs mixed with inches. I don't trust that any of it is correct. Idiots
The gorota (yojana, etc.) is defined as 'the distance over which you can hear a cow moo'...
Is that in dry air or damp?
[quote=LeeW ]What really annoys me is people arguing that Lbf.in is the same as inlbs. Wee at simmering point...
The point being that lb is a unit of mass (hence the metric equivalent to inlbs is kgm, which isn't a terribly useful unit for anything I can think of)? Or is there some other point I'm missing here?
CountZero - MemberIs that in dry air or damp?
an excellent question, you are on your way to understanding measurement uncertainty.
want a job? (a half serious question...)
you are on your way to understanding measurement uncertainty.
But how far along are you on the way to measuring the point you are at on your journey towards understanding the uncertainty of measurement?
The simple answer is we just don't know. But its safe to say you probably won't get there before teatime.