[Closed] Why can't some folk take responsibility for their own actions....

I guess she saw a life ahead of being in a wheelchair, and took a chance on getting some cash to assist in what is going to be a somewhat trickier life ahead.

Doesn't make it right, as she took the decision to dive into a pool after being down the pub, but I can see why she would do it.

Judge called it correctly.

Does look cheeky from the limited information in that story.

We know nothing about the claim against the hospital

hospital has apologised that there care was not up to scratch.. so in the end we'll all end up stumping up for a drunk womans stupid actions

Yes this is a bit of a nasty thing for you to say OP.

I should imagine that the property owner feels pretty bad even though it isn't their fault. He probs has home insurance, which is who is likely fighting this. If you read between the lines I expect the property owner encouraged her to make a claim against him in the hope his insurance would pay out and make the rest of her life easier.

The owner is the father of this girls friend, if your daughters mate got badly injured would you try and help any way you could? Or just stand on the sidelines with moral judgements such as this?

Al, no you are right - the claim against the hospital bit was only mentioned on our local news with little other details (apart from the hospital admitting a paperwork irregularity but denying responsibility for her injuries). It does strike me though, as Jamie intimated above, that she is casting about for anyone who could help shoulder some of her problems. But they just that – her problems – from her actions. I worry about a society where people get in a hole and their first reaction is to look for reasons why others should share the problem.

I had this many many years ago in Snowdonia. I was up in the mountains with the local mountain rescue carrying down an American lady who had broken her leg and hurt her back. Being stretchered out is often a bumpier ride than you would like but she spent the entire 2hrs screaming at us "when I get down I'm going to sue every **** one of you for the pain you've put me through". It was a cold horrible night and as a hot headed 18yr old I was up for dropping the silly bint down the nearest hole and letting her sort herself out. Fortunately the others were far more mature and just ignored her (she obviously did sue!).

Yes this is a bit of a nasty thing for you to say OP.

I should imagine that the property owner feels pretty bad even though it isn't their fault. He probs has home insurance, which is who is likely fighting this. If you read between the lines I expect the property owner encouraged her to make a claim against him in the hope his insurance would pay out and make the rest of her life easier.

The owner is the father of this girls friend, if your daughters mate got badly injured would you try and help any way you could? Or just stand on the sidelines with moral judgements such as this?

If you'd seen the news film of this case you'd know you are wrong. There is no love lost between the owner and the girl.

hospital has apologised that there care was not up to scratch.. so in the end we'll all end up stumping up for a drunk womans stupid actions

The hospital has appologised that the paperwork was not up to scratch, not the care I believe.

If you'd seen the news film of this case you'd know you are wrong. There is no love lost between the owner and the girl.

I saw it yesterday and that was apparent but it might not have been the case when she launched the action, after the insurance company step in and apply pressure then the family have no choice but to fight.

Anyway I accept that my assumption may well be wrong, as may any/all of yours. But in my world these accidents would not pass without help. People make mistakes, it is a sad world that does not want to help and support this girl and she probably had little choice but to launch this, or face the prospect of poverty.

Why can't some folk take responsibility for their own actions....

It's the spirit of the age. Unfortunately. You can see it everywhere.

Everyting is always someone elses fault, or someone elses responsibility to do sort out.

The litigation culture has exacerbated this mindset. Or created it. I can't decide which way round it is.

When I was a kid my parents taught me not to go jumping into water without knowing if it's deep enough. It's not rocket surgery.

With toys19, I'm afraid. I'm fairly certain that if the same had happened to me then I'd have done the same- looking for ways to make things a bit easier.

In a similar vein, what was the outcome of Fox v Pinder?

I went to a party at someones house once after being invited from the pub.

Someone drank a jeraboam of champagne that the girls father won playing golf, and someone also 'set free' the enormous stuffed salmon that was mounted on the wall over the fireplace. I believe it ended up in the pool.

Neither of these actions were mine though...I just drank free beer.

toys, She will get support - state support- and I'm glad I live in a country where this will happen. The amount - well that is dependant on what we all consider we want to pay in taxes. I'm sure if a party came along and said it would like to double taxes so that every drunk person who injures themselves got £6m from the state they would be really popular 😕 Her standard of living won't be great, but I have to say in her situation I hope I would take stock of what happened and where the blame really lay and accept it. If I fall off riding later and brake my back I'm not going to be looking to the land owner of wherever I am at the time for compensation.

convert, do you find your taxes crippling?

Toys - Not at all - I'd vote for a party that increased taxes for a better welfare state tomorrow. My wife works for a charity that helps adults with learning difficulties and I see first hand what financial state some of these adults are in. My point is - that party would NEVER get into power - the populous at large would just not wear it.

I'm comfortably (relatively) off though - maybe I'd think differently about taxation if I was on the breadline myself.

Toys - Not at all - I'd vote for a party that increased taxes for a better welfare state tomorrow. My wife works for a charity that helps adults with learning difficulties and I see first hand what financial state some of these adults are in.

So exactly what? This is akin to saying "some of my best friends are gay, black, disabled". It doesn't make your argument valid.

My point is - that party would NEVER get into power - the populous at large would just not wear it.

I'm comfortably (relatively) off though - maybe I'd think differently about taxation if I was on the breadline myself.

I don't actually think that is your point, your point is that this girl is some kind of misanthropic scrounger.

Yes, I do think she is a scrounger. She comes from money, wants a life she has become accoustomed to (granted now with serious physical limitations) and is willing to cast about and find someone to pay for it. Why can't she accept the she is due that same state aid as everyone else in her situation - no more, no less?

She comes from money

yes

how exactly? It irrelevant anyway.

She does what for money?

I work in a very select school. I was made aware of the story a few months ago by one of the kids I teach, one of whom's older sister "moves" in the same circles. The stable job mentioned in the article was/is not quite what it seems.

Her standard of living won't be great,

and why not a friend of mine in in a wheel chair, shes still well fit, still always has a girlfriend..has a better job than me, has a bigger flat than me...has more fun than me etc

I work in a very select school. I was made aware of the story a few months ago by one of the kids I teach, one of whom's older sister "moves" in the same circles. The stable job mentioned in the article was/is not quite what it seems.

You are a teacher? Blimey.

Anyway this is just gossip. Its not even a secondary source.

I find your comments distasteful and think you could be more considerate regardless of the girls background, behaviour or current circumstance. If she was Gee Atherton and broke her neck entertaining you or doing what she was good at, or Stephen Murray who is actually paralysed I'll bet your tune would be different.

So exactly what? This is akin to saying "some of my best friends are gay, black, disabled". It doesn't make your argument valid.

That's a rather condescending edit - you asked me if I found my taxes crippling; I responded no I'd like to see them go up and explained why and how I had come to that conclusion.

That's a rather condescending edit - you asked me if I found my taxes crippling; I responded no I'd like to see them go up and explained why and how I had come to that conclusion.

I am condescending, in fact it was my intention, your comments and responses so far haven't inspired any respect, and should be treated with disdain.

lovemygears - very true. I guess I was thinking worst case. There is often a presumption (and I guess I fell into it myself) that a disability automatically leads to poverty which is simply not true. It's fair to say her opporunties have been limited and her expenditures have increased significantly though.

lovemygears - very true. I guess I was thinking worst case. There is often a presumption (and I guessI fell into it myself) that a disability automatically leads to poverty which is simply not true. It's fair to say her opporunties have been limited and her expenditures have increase significantly though.

well she looks very mobile to me, if you work in office based job it wont very much effect you at all as you spend all day sitting down any way. she hasnt got brain damage, she has no excuse not to lead a pritty normal life.

If she was Gee Atherton and broke her neck entertaining you or doing what she was good at, or Stephen Murray who is actually paralysed I'll bet your tune would be different.

Go on, as you think you know me so well, tell me why?

I have every sympaphy for her plight - everyone of us must go "there but for the grace go I" - we have all done stupid things. My beef is with her actions after the accident and attidue towards other people (always assuming that she wasn't in colusion with the owner, which she could be I guess).

I think she deserves 6 million slaps. Remember kids - dont drink and dive.

convert - Member
Al, no you are right - the claim against the hospital bit was only mentioned on our local news with little other details (apart from the hospital admitting a paperwork irregularity but denying responsibility for her injuries). It does strike me though, as Jamie intimated above, that she is casting about for anyone who could help shoulder some of her problems. But they just that – her problems – from her actions.

You may know more than the rest of us about this, but I suspect it's baised.

joao3v16 - Member

Why can't some folk take responsibility for their own actions....

It's the spirit of the age. Unfortunately. You can see it everywhere.

Everyting is always someone elses fault, or someone elses responsibility to do sort out.

The litigation culture has exacerbated this mindset. Or created it. I can't decide which way round it is.

Been reading the tabloids? 🙄

As uual this is an extreme case reported with limited information, so it looks bad.

If she has a valid or arguable claim against a third party then should she not be allowed to pursue it? If the law is wrong then that ought to be changed - but that's a separate issue.

What I would say to you both is if you were in this situation (and I understand the state help for those with these sorts of disabilities is not going ot be fantastic) would you hold the same view?

Easy to be sanctimonious behind a keyboard, but we've all taken risks and done stupid things, could happen to any of us.

PS love the earlier use of "crippling" 😛

Go on, as you think you know me so well, tell me why?

Because I've read your posts over the last two years and you sound like an AI experiment with your artificial neurons modelled on the Daily Mail.

Cynic-Al
PS love the earlier use of "crippling"

convert, do you find your taxes crippling

Nope, but she found the bottom of the pool to be.....

yeah zokes I think you missed the point [url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony [/url]

Toys10 lighten up a bit.

Zokes I thought that was a cracking joke 🙂

Yep its not nice when anyone gets injured, but she should just accept it was her fault and get on with life and not expect others to take blame for her stupidty.

FunkyDunc - Member
Toys1[s]0[/s]9 lighten up a bit.

You owe me 9 🙂

This is my lighten up, I am being optimistic..

Tough titty. What next? Sue a council for a positioning of a tree if you lose control of your car at speed and slam into said tree?

Because I've read your posts over the last two years and you sound like an AI experiment with your artificial neurons modelled on the Daily Mail.

You've actaully read what I've typed over the last two years (my sympathies!) and think I'm modelled on the Daily Mail - how very dare you! Guardian reading southern softy all the way here. You need a trip to the [url= http://www.politicalcompass.org/test ]political compass.[/url]

I'm presuming that was an Ai experiment, not an aL experiment. The thought of being a mutant Cyinic-al creation is slightly unnerving!

Ohh God. Hora the moral arbiter is chipping in now, you lot are a lost cause.

All I need is TJ and PP to come on and tell me how wrong I am and this will be complete.

OK I concede you are correct, she made her bed she can lie in it, no sympathy for those who ruin their lives by misadventure. No let them suffer, the state will give them the what every one else on the state gets (which this girl doesn't deserve as she is loaded already) and she can be a lesson to the rest of us. Yep life is tough round here in Daily Mail world.

Zokes I thought that was a cracking joke

I thank you, I'm here all week!

(Well, actually I'm not, as it's already the weekend here....)

When Toys118118gotyournumber picks up his dummy, I might pop by again for some more adult humour....

EDIT:

she made her bed she can lie in it

I'm sure she can do that...

Toys19 - do you realise that insurance claims are not 'free money' and that such claims are responsible for the constant premium increases we all experience.

with this in mind could you explain why you think she is deserving of an insurance payout for something that is clearly her fault? (whether the policy holder was encouraging the claim or not).

To be honest I can't really see what your point is here Toys? She did something of her own volition, it went wrong. Although it is a desperately sad situation I think Convert has a point in raising the question about what she thinks she is due and why it is someone elses fault? I don't see his point being callous or heartless. It is just a sad reflection of life that sometimes the consequences of our actions are pretty minor (bump, bruise, cut, embarrasment) but occasionaly they can be devastating or tragic as in this case. But that doesn't make it right to expect someone else to pay out a huge wad of cash to you just to make your life a little easier.

Out of interest Toys19, what is your position on this?
Should she have been allowed to successfully sue the Owner for £6m?

I am making the Assumption the Owner's insurance was some type Liability insurance (which seems a safe assumption imo). Even if your assumption about the Owner wanting the insurance to payout is correct, does that make it acceptable?

My own opinion is that if the Owner wasn't in someway responsible/liable then the insurance company doesn't have to pay. If he wants to help the girl financially that’s his choice to do out of his own pocket. Trying to fix an insurance payout would be fraudulent.

duplicate post.

toys19 if someone came into your house drunk and decided to slide down your banister ending up with them breaking their leg. Do you think it'd be right for them to sue you?

This reminds me of Llandegla being sued by someone who fell off his bike whilst wheeling in the carpark.

Or possibly the person who sued the local council for falling off his bike due to the state of the Bridleway.

Speaking of which, you aint that fella who twice sued a University/College when he tripped over in their carpark? What was his name on here now- he disappeared when people cottoned onto the fact it was his second claim against the Uni.

Zaskar wasn't it?

Toys19 - do you realise that insurance claims are not 'free money' and that such claims are responsible for the constant premium increases we all experience.

Yes this is the same as it'll cost the taxpayer for her foolish actions. So I'll ask the question again, do you personally find these insurance costs crippling?

Toys19

What did the home owner do wrong, that they should be compensating her for? How is it their fault that an adult saw a swimming pool, assumed it was deep enough to dive in to and then hurt herself?

Should local councils be sued when people go 'tomb stoning' and injure themselves in a similar way?

Can I sue the Hurtwood Estate next time I wash out on a wet tree root, for not putting the trails out of bounds after the rain?

Don't get me wrong, I feel very sorry for her, but she made a bad decision. Not the home owner

toys19 if someone came into your house drunk and decided to slide down your banister ending up with them breaking their leg. Do you think it'd be right for them to sue you?

Perhaps you can think of a better comparable example, as this isn't exactly tragic like being paralysed is it.

Its someone not in full control of themselves acting irresponsibly?

The only claim that she had in my eyes was the fact that she was invited into the house (albeit not by the home owner).

toys19 if someone came into your house drunk and decided to slide down your banister ending up with them breaking their leg. Do you think it'd be right for them to sue you?

Perhaps you can think of a better comparable example, as this isn't exactly tragic like being paralysed is it.

The fact that she is paralysed is terrible. But the point of fault/blame is the same regardless of the severity of the consequences

Like I said previously you have all persuaded me now, thanks, Chapeau. I was wrong.

"Perhaps you can think of a better comparable example, as this isn't exactly tragic like being paralysed is it."

Come on you cant have double standards! You could certainly end up paralysed and without working tackle if theres a nob on the end of the bannister!

I'll ask the question again, do you personally find these insurance costs crippling?

is that crippling literally or figuratively?

The fact that she is paralysed is terrible. But the point of fault/blame is the same regardless of the severity of the consequences

I agree totally.

We've all done some pretty daft things when we were younger. Sadly this young lady didn't 🙁

phil.w - Member
I'll ask the question again, do you personally find these insurance costs crippling?
is that crippling literally or figuratively?

Well this is my point, I would ask you to compare yours/converts outrage at having to pay more tax/insurance versus being crippled. Which is what you all seem to have a problem with.

I don't think the owner should have to pay out personally, and I don't agree with insurance fraud but I don't object to her trying to claim on his insurance. (which is what the court case would really have been about) if he didn't have insurance than I'll put money on it that her solicitor would have advised her not to continue.

LOL convert I had to copy toys' post to see if he'd said Al or AI...anyway experimenting on you might be fun! [s]are you hot? pics? [/s]

Here's what I am taking from this thread:

1. NO ONE here knows whether the hospital has any blame for her condition.
2. yet MOST here have already formed strong opinions about it...
3. ...giving more oxygen the "ambulance chaser" BS pedalled by the tabloids.
4. NO ONE here has been in a similar situation and I'd bet money any of them who had would have different views.

I'm presuming that was an Ai experiment, not an aL experiment. The thought of being a mutant Cyinic-al creation is slightly unnerving!

Only just seen that edit myself. Sort of a carbon spoon wielding, mouth frothing nutter.

4. NO ONE here has been in a similar situation and I'd bet money any of them who had would have different views.

Except for me, as my empathic, moral and political compass is already going in the right direction.

Well this is my point, I would ask you to compare yours/converts outrage at having to pay more tax/insurance versus being crippled. Which is what you all seem to have a problem with

Where did ever say I was outraged by this. I asked you to explain why you think she is entitled to the money considering it was her actions that led to the situation that she is in.

And how much more tax/insurance would we have to pay if everyone who goes through something like this was able to claim?

Except for me, as my empathic, moral and political compass is already going in the right direction.

On an purely empathetic level of-cause she should have the money. I doubt anyone would deny that.

But to continue to hold that view back in reality where all other factors are considered is, at the very least, naive.

Well this is my point, I would ask you to compare yours/[b]converts[/b] [b]outrage at having to pay more tax/insurance[/b] versus being crippled. Which is what you all seem to have a problem with.

Show me my "outrage" at having to pay more tax please. I want to pay more tax, and I want this lady to be able to rely on state support (if she actually needs it) rather than throwing out spurious chancer claims.

But you have completely (and this does not really surprise me) missed the point of my original post - I would like to live in a world where people take responsibility for their own actions.

Just an aside, based on the very limited knowledge of the case (Cynic-al has a very good point here - blimey I am his horrendous creation!) what would YOU have decided if you were the judge in this case? And what would have been your been your reason for your decision?

Where did ever say I was outraged by this. I asked you to explain why you think she is entitled to the money considering it was her actions that led to the situation that she is in.

No where, sorry I assumed you were a hater..
It isn't about "entitlement" its about our society standing up for the values it believes in.

And how much more tax/insurance would we have to pay if everyone who goes through something like this was able to claim?

I dunno. Its worth thinking about.

Oh aye toys, point 4 was not aimed at you.

Sort of a carbon spoon wielding, mouth frothing nutter

🙁

convert - Member
I would like to live in a world where people take responsibility for their own actions.

Such as the pool owner (had he been liable, and on the face of it the decision seems right), or the hospital (who may well have contributed to her paralysis, we have no idea)?

Al - totally agree (I'm making a habit of this). If the hospital is shown in time to have exacerbated her problem through incompetence I would hope they would hold their hands up. If the pool owner had filled it with piranha and put a sign at the side of the pool that said "come on in, the water's lovely" I would hope he would also put his hand up too.

What this lady (or her lawyer) wanted the owner to have done was put a locked fence around the pool just in case she came around late at night to save her from herself.

Al you are the carbon spoon wielder, convert by analogy with the mail is the mouth frothing nutter. I imagined a union..

Why can't some folk take responsibility for their own actions....

This looks like outrage to me.

. Why can't she accept the she is due that same state aid as everyone else in her situation - no more, no less?

You call that outrage - you live in a very mellow world! I'd call that expressing an opinion. By your standards we are all (inc your good self) outraged most of the time. Anyway, the outrage you accused me of was at raising of taxes - show me please. You are also not great at having a discussion without feeling the need for insult, you might like to work on that...or not.

I don't understand where you're coming from Toys, it seems you're being contrary for the sake of it.

The judgement was completely correct, her injuries occurred through no fault of the owner/daughter so how can they be culpable?

I also agree with convert, I would like more money to go to social care for the disabled (regardless of how they were injured), but believe it can be found from sources other than taxation.

Convert, I agree the claim looks ridiculous but I've not seen the pleadings and know very little about OLA, albeit I understand it can put onerous duties on owners...

Toys hvae you any comments on my latest project? My spoon-collection is waiting.

I wonder where the omnipotent-opinionated-oracles sit on this topic?

insults

Because I've read your posts over the last two years and you sound like an AI experiment with your artificial neurons modelled on the Daily Mail.

Do you mean this

Sort of a carbon spoon wielding, mouth frothing nutter

And this?

TBH mouth frothing nutter is exactly the image I have of you, I'm sorry if its insulting but its genuinely how you come across. I don't have any respect for your opinions and I think that you are ignorant of the facts of this case and ignorant of the paralysed girls position and feelings. It appears that you want to casually pass judgement over her without knowing anything about her. Sounds exactly like Daily Mail Think to me.

I don't understand where you're coming from Toys, it seems you're being contrary for the sake of it.

The judgement was completely correct, her injuries occurred through no fault of the owner/daughter so how can they be culpable?

I'm not, but I think you have misunderstood what I am trying to say, my fault for not being explicit enough. I am sure the judge made the correct decision in law. This is not under question by me. What I was questioning was converts apparent need to vilify the claimant for her actions. Esp when he appears to not know much about her apart from some admitted playground gossip.

biscuit anyone?

It's not necessarily as straightforward as the insurance paying out even if she won. M&S home insurance, for example because it's popular on here, only covers up to £2 million. Even Hiscox, which looks like insurance for posh people, only covers up to £5 million. So this chap could still, [i]theoretically[/i], have to find million of pounds.

toys, Fine - now I know where you stand I can happliy ignore most of what you type if I come across it as rantings. Your opinions of me are of no matter but the fact you are unable to express your opinion without resorting to insults does devalue their worth in my eyes (and many others too I'd imagine).

Well I only disagreed with what you said precisely because you come across as the MFN so I thought I should point it out. The fact that you don't value my opinions heartens me.

It's not necessarily as straightforward as the insurance paying out even if she won. M&S home insurance, for example because it's popular on here, only covers up to £2 million. Even Hiscox, which looks like insurance for posh people, only covers up to £5 million. So this chap could still, theoretically, have to find million of pounds.

Unlikely I'll bet my bottom dollar the 6 million was the limit of his insurance.

I'm only saying this aspect of it as I speak from experience of having a claim made against me, where it was all about my insurance. They gave up when they found my parents house insurance didn't cover me, but only after a legal fight to get disclosure of my Dads insurance cert and policy.

It isn't about "entitlement" its about our society standing up for the values it believes in.

And those values are being upheld, aren't they?
- She'll get support for her condition, regardless of the fact that it was her fault.
- Blame won't be appointed to someone who is blameless.

The whole thing is very, very sad. She probably doesn't believe for a moment that it's really the owner's fault, she is likely just facing the future and following up the options open to her.

don't argue on teh internet kids, leave it to the big hitters, you'll just look like this:

[img] [/img]

What I was questioning was converts apparent need to vilify the claimant for her actions. Esp when he appears to not know much about her apart from some admitted playground gossip.

Fair enough, apologies!

It may well be toys, who knows. It was just a thought.

And those values are being upheld, aren't they?
- She'll get support for her condition, regardless of the fact that it was her fault.
- Blame won't be appointed to someone who is blameless.

I don't disagree with the legal aspect, and I don't think the Dad is fault. My point was really about not villifying the girl for precisely the reason you state (quoted below) and cannot stand the "made your bed lie in it " attitude of the OP's original post.

The whole thing is very, very sad. She probably doesn't believe for a moment that it's really the owner's fault, she is likely just facing the future and following up the options open to her.

thegreatape - Member
It may well be toys, who knows. It was just a thought.

And a fair one, I agree that the Dad should not personally have to pay it, but if his insurance rolled over and paid her, regardless of who was to blame, then the world would be a better place. And vilifying her desire to make this happen is shameful in my eyes. Her lawyers must have had an idea that it might work or they wouldn't have pursued it.

Toys19

Her lawyers must have had an idea that it might work or they wouldn't have pursued it.

I don't think the Dad should personally have to pay it, but if his insurance rolled over and paid her, regardless of who was to blame, then the world would be a better place

A better place for who? Her or the other thousands of the insurers customers that have to pay an increased premium because of her actions