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One child said the boys used the group chat to share nude photos of girls. “They took screenshots of girls’ faces on social media and made fun of them. They shared a video of Mia’s TikTok and made fun of her,” the child added. The child said the boys also Photoshopped girls’ faces on to the bodies of pornography performers.
If you are enabling the distribution of fake child porn then you're a pimp and should be treated as such. And why are the kids responsible not, at least, on the sex offenders register ?
Same goes for unsolicited d!ck pix. Any senders should be done for flashing/indecent exposure.
Why are these companies not being sued into oblivion ?
For the same reason you can't sue the highways agency for drink drivers who cause deaths by crashing into other people.
can you imagine what would happen if turned up at the school gates and was handing out hard copies of fake porno pics to all and sundry 😕
Same goes for unsolicited d!ck pix. Any senders should be done for flashing/indecent exposure
Prosecution would be for distribution of pornographic material. The law is there.
For the same reason you can’t sue the highways agency for drink drivers who cause deaths by crashing into other people.
well the road can't tell the drivers drunk, Snap Chat can know if an image is pornographic,
Prosecution would be for distribution of pornographic material. The law is there.
The bullying online could be covered by the Malicious Communications Act also.
Problem is you go down this path you'll be criminalising a lot of young kids, that will bring some uncomfortable consequences also.
that will bring some uncomfortable consequences also.
like suicide ?
And why are the kids responsible not, at least, on the sex offenders register ?
Because it isn't in the public or children's interest to prosecute and destroy their futures when in the vast majority of cases the children doing it do not comprehend the full consequences of their actions.
Proper education is the correct course of action in most cases.
It's the same reason most children aren't prosecuted for having underage sex.
well the road can’t tell the drivers drunk, Snap Chat can know if an image is pornographic
Well, that's where it becomes legally problematic, I mean I could post a porno pic here, right now. I'm sure I'd get banned for it, but the picture would be visible for a period of time until it got reported and a Mod deleted it.
Is that the fault of STW? I'd say no. Is it a fault of thier web hosts? I'd say no, It would be my fault.
like suicide ?
Potentially yes. Criminalising children is not something that should be taken lightly. Entry into the criminal justice system at a young age has impacts that reach far beyond into adulthood.
But as the cat is out the bag with social media and access to mobile devices for kids and they're clearly quite vicious to one another, often without a real appreciation for their behaviour what's the change that needs to occur?
But one could argue why stop here, let's start lifting them for assault after playground fights too?
well the road can’t tell the drivers drunk, Snap Chat can know if an image is pornographic,
That's just a problem of sufficient technology. In the same way that Snap Chat could[0] do image analysis, you could just install cameras to detect erratic driving.
[0] maybe. I've never actually used SnapChat, I don't know how it works. If it's end-to-end encrypted[1], then maybe not.
[1] before anyone says it, this is not a good argument for having security backdoors, either.
Its beena principle since the dawn of the internet that platforms are not liable for stuff on the platform unless they refuse to take it down when asked. Reverse this will cause huge issues. There is new UK law on this but its not implemented yet and widely thought to be unworkable
for example - someone on here calls me a bigot ( as has been done). Thats a libelous statement. should STW be liable for the libel?
could just install cameras to detect erratic driving.
oh please
You struggling to manage your emotions tonight Klunk?
Genuinely, you okay?
what’s the change that needs to happen?
Well, that's the golden question!
I don't have any sensible suggestions that don't also infringe the freedom of the 99% of people who are generally respectful of general decency!
i'm fine, i thought your scenario could do with a tweak 🙂
You're arguing that kids should be arrested, you either do it for all acts that are prosecutable under the law or you don't.
But there are reasons why it is reserved for the most serious cases. It shouldn't be something done lightly or emotionally.
I wonder where the parents are in all of this. If I had a kid and they were being a turd via PED's they'd never have access to one until they're 18.
The current estimate is approximately one and a half million indecent images of children online, about a third self generated. The vast majority of people who use iioc are children. We can’t and shouldn’t criminalise them. I work with people convicted of sexual offences, proper education from primary school is needed but not even on the horizon.
my other take on this is the internet companies managed to shut down Napster and Pirate Bay, the torrent sites and peer to peer when the media corporations worried about losing money from film and music, surely it’s not too difficult?
if a kid was beat up in the playground enough to be driven to suicide then there might, just might even possibly be a case to answer, either from the school or the culprits ?
It's sounds like a failing in pastoral care.
You can't blame the images on Snapchat any more than you can blame the ISP they were posting from or the software they used to create the images.
The main blame should lie with the school. This shit has been going on for years now, it's not new and they should have a handle on this.
my other take on this is the internet companies managed to shut down Napster and Pirate Bay
No they didn't.
https://www.napster.com/gb
https://pirate-proxy.com
If we start prosecuting platforms for user generated content it would radically change the internet. Everything would need to be premoderated. STW would no longer exist as multiple full time moderators would be needed which is unaffordable.<br /><br />Any platform using user generated content would have to have all content being premoderated. Its unworkable
**** it, go for it. What you'd be doing is creating generations of broken dysfunctional adults who'd then create and inflict more harm on society and others.
If they haven't folded before that.
Over emotional responses to tragedies never bring positive outcomes.
my other take on this is the internet companies managed to shut down Napster and Pirate Bay, the torrent sites and peer to peer when the media corporations worried about losing money from film and music, surely it’s not too difficult?
Those were taking down whole networks. And well, it's not like they managed to take them down particularly effectively. Pirate Bay in particular stayed up for many years despite attempts to remove and block it. There are still a number of torrent sites around, piracy didn't go away, or even diminish that much.
But, the point being, those were individual targets that had very limited legitimate use. If sharing is going on via WhatsApp/telegram/whatever, then there's enough legitimate uses of those platforms that it's not a good solution to just take down the whole network.
When I was a kid I kicked a hole in a fence, the Police dealt with that with some understanding but made it clear that if the fence owner had not agreed to it I would have been charged. Probably about 2 quids worth of damage, which I had to fix, and apologise.
I also had playground fights, won and lost, and in neither case was any kind of police action even considered.
Crime against property seemed to be more serious than the physical assault of another person, now we seem to be saying that bullying, and making and distributing illegal pornography is to be ignored if it is teenagers despite the misery it causes to the victims. I think there was also a recent case where a rapist was spared prison because of his young age.
People need it communicated that this kind of thing is not going to be tolerated and if a few of them end up criminalised as a result then so be it.
The main blame should lie with the school
No, it lies with parents. Schools should be supporting them, but blaming under resourced schools for wider societal failings isn't the right approach, in my opinion.
if a few of them end up criminalised as a result then so be it.
In serious cases, of course, but the suggestions originally being made would criminalise thousands of kids and effectively write them off for life in terms of educational and employment chances, leaving them an ongoing drain on society through crime and/or benefits.
It's a difficult line to get right, but emotional reactions, however understandable, rarely lead to great legislation and outcomes.
My point was poorly made but what I see is a move away from one behaviour online ( not paying for films or music by illegal downloading) to a streaming based model.
Porn has changed the way children view sex, there’s so much violence involved now, much more so than ten years ago. The Andrew Tates of this world have skewed boys and young men’s views in a totally misogynistic way. That’s what needs to change
The social media companies are entirely without morals in this regard. I recently flagged an account that was sharing illegal pornographic images and the report game back saying they had not broken any rules. 🤷🏻♂️
I'm guessing all I did was interact with a bot and and algorithm in the entire process.
No, it lies with parents. Schools should be supporting them, but blaming under resourced schools for wider societal failings isn’t the right approach, in my opinion.
I don't entirely disagree, but...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62049774
Mia was the third pupil at the Jewish Free School in north London to have taken their life since 2017.
3 suicides in under 4 years does feel like a systemic failure.
the internet companies managed to shut down Napster and Pirate Bay, the torrent sites and peer to peer when the media corporations worried about losing money from film and music,
Pirate Bay and P2P are still going strong. Some stuff is still hard to do. Large internet companies are really struggling with moderation. The responsible* ones use automated detection systems and armies of manual moderators (which is the horrific thankless and scarring job you would imagine it to be) and they are still failing.
No idea what the solution is, but whatever it is, it’s not simple.
* One of Elons cost saving measures for X was to scrap loads of the safeguarding people and systems, which is an odd thing to do if you consider yourself the saviour of humanity.
Also, and as callous as this may appear the parents of the bullied may need to ask themselves some searching questions as to why they didn't maintain a relationship or environment that enabled a child to share what the hell was going on in their life.
Hiding from the difficult questions and subjects isn't going to help yield a solution.
My point was poorly made but what I see is a move away from one behaviour online ( not paying for films or music by illegal downloading) to a streaming based model.
Porn has changed the way children view sex, there’s so much violence involved now, much more so than ten years ago. The Andrew Tates of this world have skewed boys and young men’s views in a totally misogynistic way. That’s what needs to change
The problem is these influences have always existed, it's the access which has changed.
The minute a parent puts an unrestricted and unmonitored PED into the hands of a child they're putting their underdeveloped brain and abundant curiosity on a collision course with some really dark shit.
I'm not sure many take that concept seriously.
3 suicides in under 4 years does feel like a systemic failure.
Agreed, of school and parents.
Going back a bit to this
I don’t have any sensible suggestions that don’t also infringe the freedom of the 99% of people who are generally respectful of general decency!
I think hits the point. We could eradicate all sorts of crime by becoming a heavy handed surveillance led Police state/dictatorship, but the knock on effect to our wider civil liberties would not be worth it. Sometimes the cost of "freedom" is that tragedies happen, be that crime or terrorism or some other suffering. And I know its easy to make those comments when its not your family involved in the tragedy.
Maybe a solution is a mandate that requires more robust parental oversight for PEDs?
Not thought it through fully, but as they're kids we restrict some activities due to age, so I wonder if we should look at there?
We could eradicate all sorts of crime by becoming a heavy handed surveillance led Police state/dictatorship,
Hundreds of deaths a year from badly driven and maintained cars ( which is breaking the law). Ban the lot save those hundreds of deaths?
No, it lies with parents. Schools should be supporting them, but blaming under resourced schools for wider societal failings isn’t the right approach, in my opinion.
As pointed out, 3 suicides in 4 years is shocking.
But we have no bloody idea what's going on there as its an academy. If they're under resourced who's fault is that?
Mando also said what I was going to be chickened out. I feel for the parents, I really do, but you need to be on top of that shit.
Putting blocks on PED's is only a part of the solution. Most children see inappropriate materials via social media accounts.
Accounts that know the receiver/sender is a child but still lets the adult material to be issued or received. Unless the parent personally bans social media for their PED how os the SM company not at fault!
Social media companys must be cracked down on much harder for allowing the inappropriate material to spread. No matter the cost to them.
Blaming parents of children who have committed suicide is just massively wrong. Children (just like adults) can be very hard to unpick with the added confusion/lack of clarity of a childs mind. A parent can be fully engaging but still not be able to see the full picture. Messages can be sent, received and deleted but the contents seen, read and absorbed, with little 'evidence' left for the parent to review and understand whats going on
Blaming parents of children
Where did I blame? They need to ask themselves some questions. Like is a PED amd access to social media essential for their development for a start.
Stop making excuses, it's why we don't get anywhere with this because everyone is unwilling to shoulder their burden of responsibility.
As a parent you can wax lyrical about social media companies, but there are some very real and direct things you can control, but choose not to.
Why is that?
can you imagine what would happen if turned up at the school gates and was handing out hard copies of fake porno pics to all and sundry 😕
1. you are an adult, we treat child offenders differently, because we recognise that kids do stupid shit and are learning - doesn’t mean that all kids are exempt from all crimes AND
2. Possessing or distributing child pornography is an offence. If it doesn’t constitute child porn (because it’s photoshopped on an adult body), sharing malicious electronic communications is also an offence BUT
3. your ranty, knee jerk reaction in the OP is not punishing the person distributing the photocopies, it’s punishing Xerox for providing the photocopier. In your hypothetical comparison the fact someone bought you the copier and gave you unsupervised access to the photocopier, and nobody from the school acted quickly to intervene doesn’t make it any more Xerox fault.
Accounts that know the receiver/sender is a child but still lets the adult material to be issued or received. Unless the parent personally bans social media for their PED how os the SM company not at fault!
Social media companys must be cracked down on much harder for allowing the inappropriate material to spread. No matter the cost to them.
Okay, well, say goodbye to the clearweb then.
Might as well just move to China because that's the level of intrusion you're advocating.
Or, we could learn about the apps kids are using and actually engage with them. You know, parenting?
Social media companys must be cracked down on much harder for allowing the inappropriate material to spread. No matter the cost to them.
NO more STW then as what you are advocating would mean premoderation of all user generated content on all social media
A lot of the popular messaging apps became popular precisely because they were end to end encrypted, and social media companies couldn't intercept them.
There's not really a way to add moderation to them, by design.
The quotes from pupils about the school turning a blind eye while proclaiming zero tolerance for bullying, and the involvement of the rabbi in deleting the Snapchat group, and the actions of some of the pupils suggest to me that anger and action could rightly and more productively be directed closer to home than on a tech multinational.
Don't be silly, the poor lambs are under resourced.
could just install cameras to detect erratic driving.
oh please
The more I think about it, the more I think it would be technically easier to do so.
Just because things are "just writing code" doesn't make it an easier problem.
It's a bit of a juxtaposition...if you break end to end encryption then you make all financial transactions inherrently insecure and prone to interception/theft, etc. by individuals, and indeed, governments.
Apple pay? or any type of contactless payments? forget it, huge money transfers betweeen banks? Hell no. Untold havock.
I honestly don't have the answers.
* One of Elons cost saving measures for X was to scrap loads of the safeguarding people and systems, which is an odd thing to do if you consider yourself the saviour of humanity.<br />
It’s not odd to someone who’s fundamentally a right-wing authoritarian narcissist, who only sees things from the perspective of whatever is of benefit to himself and what benefits himself. Much like DiaperDon.
It’s a bit of a juxtaposition…if you break end to end encrption then you make all financial transactions inherrently insecure and prone to interception/theft, etc.
Well, the argument has been "can't all you clever people come up with a new encryption mechanism which has a backdoor for the nice government folk and we pinky promise we won't misuse it", so it wouldn't necessarily affect all the things.
But, aside from the very obvious flaw of having to trust governments, it's going to be hard to keep that particular genie in a bottle. And even assuming all your access control is solid and all your politicians are fine upstanding individuals with no self interest, it's obviously going to be a prime candidate for bad actors to hack.
And even assuming all those things aren't issues, what do you think people will do? They'll just hop straight to the next app that doesn't have a backdoor.
could just install cameras to detect erratic driving.<br />oh please<br />The more I think about it, the more I think it would be technically easier to do so.
Just because things are “just writing code” doesn’t make it an easier problem.<br /><br />
I hope that’s not suggesting that facial recognition is the answer, because it’s been proven repeatedly that it’s deeply flawed, the chances of the wrong person being identified are huge, especially when those subjects are not white! Not that that matters to law enforcement, especially when it has an inbuilt bias against POC…
Not that it could ever happen here… *eye roll emoji*
I hope that’s not suggesting that facial recognition is the answer,
No. I was saying I think it would be easier to have auto detection of drunk drivers on the road network than add moderation to end to end encrypted networks.
Well, the argument has been “can’t all you clever people come up with a new encryption mechanism which has a backdoor for the nice government folk and we pinky promise we won’t misuse it”, so it wouldn’t necessarily affect all the things.
I think we are both saying the same thing in different ways.
You can't have a secure system if it has back-doors or other potential exploits. It's a logical fallacy.
You don't need a PHD in computer science to work that one out.
I don't have any answers, really...if there's potential to abuse something, it's pretty much a given that at some point' some one will abuse it to thier advantage...
... be that school kids bullying each other on ticktoc, or royal mail/Fujitsu ruining peoples lives and telling lies about it. Humans can be real arse holes, what can I say?
Snap Chat can know if an image is pornographic
if I remember correctly Snapchat is end-to-end encrypted. Like WhatsApp and iMessage for example.
If so then Snapchat cannot know what you are posting and can take no direct action. Plus monitoring all photographic and video posts and identifying alleged porn isn’t possible now. https://spectrum.ieee.org/amp/blogger-behind-ai-weirdness-thinks-todays-ai-is-dumb-and-dangerous-2650279265
Apple attempted some CSAM measures and put them on hold. https://www.wired.com/story/apple-csam-scanning-heat-initiative-letter/
Hopefully no one is advocating a ‘back door’ or other encryption-weakening measures here?
surely it’s not too difficult?
If it was as simple as people imagine it is, tech companies would have dealt with it. They can't afford to pay human moderators to check every single social media post and, if they use AI, there will be false positives and false negatives. People's accounts will be blocked or shut down and there will be no realistic way to dispute it because those companies can't afford to pay enough staff to manually check disputes.
Which is what happens already. I've been banned from Facebook for "promotion of violence" because I said hipsters need a slap. From the context it was utterly obvious what the intent was but either an AI or non native English speaker that didn't understand rejected my appeal.
Meanwhile genuine scumbags go unchecked.
There is also the fact that the kids phones are not theirs. They cannot take out the financing contract so it's in the adults name. A child may well be send pics but it's from an adults phone. Something that needs to be pushed home whenever a phone is used to send a dodgy pic or video a school ground fight or bully a child.
I'm sure there's a simple solution here somewhere... All we need to do is concoct some fallacies and imagine some technology into existance.
Alternatively perhaps the solution here is unfortunately a social one, rather than a technical. If society didn't tolerate "boys being boys" that girl wouldn't have had to endure what she did. If we were better at building resilience and building environments which imbued psychological safety we could have better relationships between people and spend less effort on dealing with the fallout from people being rubbish to each other. The problem here is the school. It's also the parents. And it's the kids themselves. People in miserable situations were thoroughly adepts at being utterly rubbish to each other including psychological torture to the point of destruction long before Snapchat was a thing. I know this only too well - I had the misfortune of attending a Christian Brothers school in the 1990s.
I suspect the platforms are legally not in the UK and so subject to the legal framework of whichever country they have chosen. That and they are very well connected. Does anyone think Nick Glegg got his job at Facebook because of his prooven track record in the social media industry