[Closed] Why are Scottish and Welsh folk so patriotic ?

Does this mean my ego is either broken, or is it not fragile enough? Serious question..

Not a question I can answer. If you find it let me know as I feel much the same.

Somebody posted a while back would we be prepared to speak German 'to break down barriers' well, if it could be arranged to have a continental/global language I'd gladly ditch English to make it happen.

I love Wales. I can't tell if it's because I identify as Welsh or it really is nice. Perhaps a bit of both. I love Britain too, perhaps for similar reasons. I love Scotland as a concept but I've not spent much time there so I don't have the same affinity.

However I also love Sweden and Finland greatly, even though I have absolutely no national or familial connection.

So what does that tell us about patriotism? I don't know!

After living in Finland for over a year I felt great joy to be back on a Welsh mountain trail, but that's mostly because I missed the climbing and the view 🙂

I remember hearing an interview with a lady from Plaid Cymru. She didn't sound like the sharpest tool in the box all the way through the interview and some young lad phoned in and made her look really silly.
At the end the interviewer asked her if she had any words she'd like to share. She said "every morning I wake up and thank god I'm welsh".
WTF?!? Has she got nothing more going for her than the fact she happened to be born in wales? Had she not got a message for any for potential/swing voters? Inspirational advice for young people? Even just take the opportunity to slag off the tories?
Nope. Just a jingoist, small minded fluffy pile of crap.

WTF?!? Has she got nothing more going for her than the fact she happened to be born in wales? Had she not got a message for any for potential/swing voters? Inspirational advice for young people? Even just take the opportunity to slag off the tories?
Nope. Just a jingoist, small minded fluffy pile of crap.

As someone who would like to see Wales move towards independence, I agree. I find it depressing, but no great surprise, that UKIP are about to over take them in popularity.

[quote=wrecker ]I remember hearing an interview with a lady from Plaid Cymru. She didn't sound like the sharpest tool in the box all the way through the interview and some young lad phoned in and made her look really silly.
At the end the interviewer asked her if she had any words she'd like to share. She said "every morning I wake up and thank god I'm welsh".
WTF?!? Has she got nothing more going for her than the fact she happened to be born in wales? Had she not got a message for any for potential/swing voters? Inspirational advice for young people? Even just take the opportunity to slag off the tories?
Nope. Just a jingoist, small minded fluffy pile of crap.
You maybe missed the intended joke.

ben cooper
From the Auld Alliance to today's arguments about refugees, Scotland has been more interested in other peoples and countries - kinda helps also that so many Scots emigrated.

I'm just countering the daft suggestion that Scottish independence is about insularity and xenophobia, when it's more about getting away from our increasingly insular and xenophobic neighbour.

This is one of the greatest examples of STW diarrhea I have heard.
Firstly the areas of settlement of immigrants within the UK over the last century do not back up your claim. 8,000,000 of the UK population are from ethnic minorities. That is 14%. The figure for Scotland alone stands at 2%.

Religious xenophobia has been commonplace in Scotland for centuries. Persecution, not getting jobs from going to the wrong school or supporting the wrong football, particularly in the West of Scotland.

Also, staying with Glasgow, within the time period you describe, read gordimhors link about how Glasgow went from being one of the poorest cities in Europe to one of it's richest based on the trade of products produced from slave labour. By the turn of the 18th century, Scots owned 30% of estates in Jamaica and 30% of its slaves. Although few slave ships left Scottish ports, Scotland it appears did VERY well out of slavery. Not just a few tobacco lords as epicyclo claims.

How can the wealth of Scotlands most populace city be based on tobacco, sugar and cotton, and you claim its inhabitants were interested the people working to produce that wealth?!

Don't get me wrong, it is not all bad as Scotland was also instrumental in the abolition of the slave trade, but perhaps you should walk along Jamaica Street and see some of the buildings slave money built before making spurious claims.

I would also take issue about Scots feeling greater affinity to todays refugees. An example being the proposal to use a former nursing home in the town I grew up to house families from Syria. The comments were mainly against it, with the same old 'we should look after our own first' being trotted out.

I think when indy comes, soon after you will see the same people currently claiming to be on the side of immigrants wishing to shut up shop to them. I am saddened but not surprised at the short sightedness of people I know that are pro indy, pro EU and pro Brexit to serve their own need.

This whole they are xenophobic next door while we are not, reeks of jingoism. In truth I can't see a great deal of difference of opinion where I travel. I am currently in heated discussion with a Dutch mate who I consider a fellow countryman I suppose, who is a supporter of Farage.

I feel fortunate to live where I do. I do not feel proud or patriotic about it. I have been called and will continue to be called a traitor for it. Never mind.

I think my link is a good article in so far as it examines the role of the tobacco Lords and others at the time. I do not agree with the author about the presentation of a Disney version of the diaspora in recent years.
I'm sure we can both find plenty of examples of Scots who have acted in the most xenophobic way towards refugees. One of the highlights of last year for me was helping out with a group who took several lorry loads of donations for refugees to Calais and to Greece. The group has volunteers from both sides of the referendum division who cooperated to help people in dire need. It is as easily possible for people to be nationalist and outward looking as it is for them to be unionist and outward looking.

I would also take issue about Scots feeling greater affinity to todays refugees.

That's a bit harsh. Didn't Ms Strugeon put some refugees up herself? A really noble gesture that must have been very welcome by the lucky few.

It is good gordimhor, and it also shows how the trickle down effect helped lift the wealth of a city. I few extremely wealthy tobacco lords have to spend that money somehow.

Apologies for my stealth edit

gordimhor
I'm sure we can both find plenty of examples of Scots who have acted in the most xenophobic way towards refugees. One of the highlights of last year for me was helping out with a group who took several lorry loads of donations for refugees to Calais and to Greece. The group has volunteers from both sides of the referendum division who cooperated to help people in dire need. It is as easily possible for people to be nationalist and outward looking as it is for them to be unionist and outward looking.

This is a good point. I have just don't feel as stated that Scotland is anymore or less welcoming or more or less xenophobic than elsewhere. I don't think current affairs or history back it up. I do though think that immigration will be as hotly and similarly discussed as everywhere else in the Europe, however takes a slightly back seat at the minute.

I have just don't feel as stated that Scotland is anymore or less welcoming or more or less xenophobic than elsewhere.

It's hard to tell what the general public thinks, but politically Scotland is much more welcoming of refugees compared to the Westminster government. Does that truly reflect public opinion? I don't know - I know friends and relatives in England are disgusted by Cameron's comments.

You lot are confused.

On the one hand you encourage or emphasise individuality and identity ...

On the other hand you want to ensure everyone conforms to a greater identity ...

Told you I see you coming ... you lot are messed up ... 🙄

From the Auld Alliance to today's arguments about refugees, Scotland has been more interested in other peoples and countries - kinda helps also that so many Scots emigrated.

I'm just countering the daft suggestion that Scottish independence is about insularity and xenophobia, when it's more about getting away from our increasingly insular and xenophobic neighbour.

Scottish independence/patriotism isn't about xenophobia or nationalism (as defined by others earlier), it's just that you're better than us so you don't want to be associated with us. Ah ok! 🙂

It's not that we don't want to be associated with you, we just don't want to be run by the Westminster parliament. Close friends and equals, not inferior partners in a dysfunctional relationship 😉

bencooper - Member

It's not that we don't want to be associated with you, we just don't want to be run by the Westminster parliament. Close friends and equals, not inferior partners in a dysfunctional relationship

Just like we (me more precisely) don't want to be associated with stooopid [b]EU[/b]SSR but I have feeling the Scots might sabotage it by voting to join [b]EU[/b]SSR ... in that case we at the (not me precisely but the English) Westminster should tax the Scots even more and cut their benefits ... ya ... no more hand outs ... Yes?

Do you want to have independent or not? FFS! Make up your mind. Freeedoomm!

😛

It's not that we don't want to be associated with you, we just don't want to be run by the Westminster parliament. Close friends and equals, not inferior partners in a dysfunctional relationship

You "just want to be friends"? Damn....

It's not that we don't want to be associated with you, we just don't want to be run by the Westminster parliament.

Neither do a lot of English people...

chewkw
You lot are confused.

On the one hand you encourage or emphasise individuality and identity ...

On the other hand you want to ensure everyone conforms to a greater identity ...

It absolutely pains me to say this but as well as managing to string a couple of coherent sentences together I agree with chewkw to an extent.

ben, people often use the argument that what makes Scotland for example is a series of characteristics and commonality of its people and we should feel this sense of identity based on a geography of being from or living in Scotland, whilst next door is not about the people, rather an overarching doom and xenophobia, and aloofness that stems from a government.

Ask a sickly inner city Labour voting London living graduate who can ill afford their rent due to paying off student loans and seeing council tax rises, and who has to pay for their prescription, if they think they are fortunate that a Tory government has in fact chosen to help them by instead giving Scotland a S***e deal.

Ask a junior doctor in Leeds if they think junior doctors in Scotland have things worse.

Perhaps get your head out the 'movement' once in a while. It may open your eyes.

If you don't want them as your countrymen/women due to some reasons of getting away from xenophobia, then fair enough, I will call them mine, neither British or Scottish.

athgray - Member

Since you are doing your "you have all been brainwashed" pish that you like to wheel out, care to comment on the below stats?
UKIP 14.1% of the vote England
UKIP 1.6%.............Scotland (2015 GE) Is that current enough for you?

You increasingly act like a pound shop Teamhurtmore on these threads.

UKIP 1.6%

There's been some pretty ridiculous stuff in that thread but you just raised the bar, good show 😆

You increasingly act like a pound shop Teamhurtmore on these threads.

😀 on a roll ducks! good job neither of us as super-sensitive bunnies 😉

Stick with it ATG - the suppression of debate and the "rhetoric trumps reality" have had enough of their time in the limelight

It's called the SNP in Scotland,

Bravo!

That's another angle on the patriotic/nationalistic argument. Perfectly alright for SNP to negotiate in the interests of Scotland but if rUK does the same that is bullying!!

You have to smile at the bare faced cheek of it!

You increasingly act like a pound shop Teamhurtmore on these threads.

5thElefant - Member

UKIP 1.6%

It's called the SNP in Scotland, and does a lot better than UKIP does in England.

I don't think from personal experience the English are more xenophobic,but that was a counter to his point,certainly more of them identify with the "ideas" of a party like UKIP for some reason.

Bravo!

That's another angle on the patriotic/nationalistic argument. Perfectly alright for SNP to negotiate in the interests of Scotland but if rUK does the same that is bullying!!

You have to smile at the bare faced cheek of it!

I know, imagine expecting the UK government to actually deliver on the promises they made during the referendum!

Maybe they just don't want to be part of a bigger, authoritive, controlling enitity and would like to be free to decide on how their country is run for themselves?
Sound familiar?

I know, imagine expecting the UK government to actually deliver on the promises they made during the referendum!

Hmm, while ignoring the fact that the government in Holyrood renage on theirs. What's the expression - "double....."?

In what way is Scotland a bigger controlling entity? still glad you have empathy for wanting indy.
In what way have the SNP reneged;by refusing to use the watered down version of the "vow"? Cracking example there.

Wonder why I have never seen you on newsnight....Too busy with your Daily Mail perhaps.

In what way is Scotlan a bigger controlling entity?

still glad you have empathy for wanting indy.

Don't you worry about it pal - just keep believing that you have a left-of-centre, anti-austerity party that acts in your best interests.

A nice warm, fuzzy feeling isn't it....? So much nicer than the actual version.

[and isn't education a "specialised subject"? 😉 ]

If you really think the Westminster is going to allow Scotland to leave as easily as that then you are very much mistaken.
THM,you do realise that I am a pro-Indy green voter don't you? And while digging up the SNP,I never see you mention the actions of the alternatives...Not that you are a Tory of course.

If you really think the Westminster is going to allow Scotland to leave as easily as that then you are very much mistaken.

Not that you are a Tory of course.

At least we have cleared that one up. Phew...

Good to see that Vern is arranging a nice warm reception for us in a few weeks time!!

I never see you mention the actions of the alternatives

Excuse me, I thought the SNP were in power.

If you don't want them as your countrymen/women due to some reasons of getting away from xenophobia, then fair enough, I will call them mine, neither British or Scottish.

This idea that working people in Scotland have more in common with working people in England than they do with other Scots of other groups is a common one. And it makes some sense - a brickie in Liverpool has more in common with a brickie in Glasgow than a lawyer in Liverpool.

But why does that lead to having to be in the same nation state? Surely that Liverpool brickie also shares a lot with a brickie in Berlin, New York or Pyongyang - do we want a one world government?

I'm not really bothered about the size of the country - a one world government would be fine with me if it was properly democratic. The problem with the UK is that it's not democratic, the Westminster government is ridiculously unrepresentative and the House of Lords is even worse. If Westminster could be fixed, I'd be happy staying in the UK - but I don't believe it can, so I think a smaller nation state with a more representative government is a better option.

So what does that do for the brickie in Liverpool? Aren't I just abandoning them to the Tories? There's two answers to that. The first is I can't help them now - staying in the UK, we in Scotland have pretty much no influence over Westminster, so we can't help in any meaningful sense. The second answer is that if Scotland leaves, we might break the Westminster system, and might also lead by example. Might not, but it's worth a go.

As you well know,the alternatives to the SNP...Ruth tank commander or Kezie D..decisions,decisions...

Indeed, Scotland deserves better!

We agree 😉

Indeed, Scotland deserves better!

I see the SNP as a necessary evil - though they're doing a reasonable job with most things, I'm not a natural SNP voter, I'm a Green also. I highly doubt the SNP would be as powerful in an independent Scotland - and I don't think it'd be healthy if they were.

Perhaps its a dangerous assumption to believe that politicians are in control/proactive at all? Seem far more reactive IMO - hence the lack of real difference in terms of policy options.

Yes, in general politicians get scary when they get too proactive.

(Did I just do a Godwin there? 😉 )

Perhaps its a dangerous assumption to believe that politicians are in control/proactive at all?

It's not only a dangerous assumption, it is completely wrong. Politicians have very little control the maths shows that. One of the few things the do have decent control of is security and they can set a general framework the country exists within, otherwise forget it.

I was being generous!! 😉

duckman
Since you are doing your "you have all been brainwashed" pish that you like to wheel out, care to comment on the below stats?
UKIP 14.1% of the vote England
UKIP 1.6%.............Scotland (2015 GE) Is that current enough for you?

My point about seeing beyond the movement was aimed at ben not every yes voter.

In terms of UKIP/SNP I do think that they are to an extent fighting over the same ground. One at the core of dissastisfaction with aloof governements and both use geographical boundaries to differentiate traits between peoples.
Don't believe your stats are evidence of a more openminded and tolerant position of Scottish people compared to our neighbours. I know plenty of people on both sides of the debate that are as xenophobic as elsewhere. Yes won't tell you this. You are gallus, fun loving, argumentative and caring remember. Don't believe the hype!

So what does that do for the brickie in Liverpool? Aren't I just abandoning them to the Tories? There's two answers to that. The first is I can't help them now - staying in the UK, we in Scotland have pretty much no influence over Westminster, so we can't help in any meaningful sense. The second answer is that if Scotland leaves, we might break the Westminster system, and might also lead by example. Might not, but it's worth a go.

The third answer is yes you are abandoning them to the Tories.

In terms of UKIP/SNP I do think that they are to an extent fighting over the same ground.

Bollocks.

In terms of UKIP/SNP I do think that they are to an extent fighting over the same ground.

And if you were in the US, you could chuck in Trump as well.

staying in the UK, we in Scotland have pretty much no influence over Westminster

Bollocks.

50 odd MPs representing your nationalist party is pretty big influence.

Sure they can't defeat the Tories in THIS parliament, but that changes every 5 years. You can't flounce out just because the vote doesn't go your way for ****'s sake. If everyone did that the country would disintegrate.

My view on the "Scots being less xenophobic than the English" argument is that on the surface it looks like it might be true, but even if there is a difference it's likely to be related to there being less of an impact in Scotland at the moment, as backed up by some stats posted earlier.

I split my time pretty much evenly between Scotland and England (and in fact am a 50:50 Scottish:English mongrel anyway). In London I live in an affluent suburb of London (although technical my place is a few metres into Essex), and in Scotland I live in an affluent suburb of Edinburgh. Where I live in London has a lot of ethnic diversity (for the borough as a whole "white British" are a minority, something like 35% at the last census) where as in Edinburgh "white British" makes up more than 90% of the population (and I suspect it's even more in the area I live).

So for me if there is a difference in attitude towards refugee's and immigration etc. it's because of circumstances & impact, not any real difference in attitudes etc.

50 odd MPs representing your nationalist party is pretty big influence.

Some influence but no power - in Westminster anyway.

Some influence but no power - in Westminster anyway

And how many million London voters are in the same position?

You could say the same thing about any regional area of the UK that isn't entirely Tory.

Really pisses me off when Scots nationalists make out that there's some fundamental difference between them and the rest of the UK. As if the whole of England, Wales and NI are entirely Tory right wingers and everyone the other side of that line is suddenly a leftie on some fundamental level. Don't talk shite.

As a non-Scottish non-Tory living under the same Tory government with even less defence from it than the Scots, this really winds me up.

Diddums.

I'm not saying it wasn't also true for other areas as well - but having 50 MP's in Westminster doesn't give you all that much when the government has an absolute majority.

So can I have a quick precis - of the past few pages...
has it just turned into the usual SNP hijacking the thread and spouting how much they hate the English (with some Glencoe, Auld Alliance blx) whilst denying they do?

Really pisses me off when Scots nationalists make out that there's some fundamental difference between them and the rest of the UK. As if the whole of England, Wales and NI are entirely Tory right wingers and everyone the other side of that line is suddenly a leftie on some fundamental level. Don't talk shite.

Actually, they have a point...
[img] [/img]

And how many million London voters are in the same position?

You could say the same thing about any regional area of the UK that isn't entirely Tory.

Which is exactly my point - the Westminster voting system is broken. I don't think that the average English person is much more right-wing and xenophobic than the average Scot, it's that the system allows the right-wing xenophobes to take and hold complete power.

has it just turned into the usual SNP hijacking the thread and spouting how much they hate the English (with some Glencoe, Auld Alliance blx) whilst denying they do?

I thought it was more the SNP/Scots haters taking any chance they could to spout off (this being the usual candidates). Probably it's a bit of both.

Actually, they have a point...

That's an old map - back when the LibDems were still a political party.

it's that the system allows the right-wing xenophobes to take and hold complete power.

ben, have you lost your smiley emojo?

ben, have you lost your smiley emojo?

Yeah, kinda lost the smiley emojo when we're talking about a government that turns away child refugees while selling arms for Saudi Arabia to bomb civilians with.

It's pretty impressive, really - I didn't think there could be a more hateful PM than Thatcher, but Cameron has managed it.

oh I see?

[Actually point stands even more after that, but I will let it pass despite memories of a certain (late) ethical (?) foreign secretary clearly in mind]

How dare 1.5 million people in Scotland vote for a party that represents them! Don't they know it's their job to keep the English from self-harming?

Ironic that the English are now pointing the blame for their woes north.

it's that the system allows the right-wing xenophobes to take and hold complete power.

Really last governments were Con-Lib coalition, then Labour back to 1997.

On a Scottish representation note, Scotland has provided 7 Prime Ministers who were born there (6 since 1850) and 6 Prime Ministers have represented Scottish constituencies while in power. (Bannerman and Brown being on both lists).

That's an old map - back when the LibDems were still a political party.

[img] [/img]

Really last governments were Con-Lib coalition, then Labour back to 1997.

Blair started several wars, including the one that got us into the massive mess in the Middle East. Despite the views of the people.

On a Scottish representation note, Scotland has provided 7 Prime Ministers...

Who cares? What does it matter where the PMs were born? It's about having a government that represents the views of the people.

a government that turns away [b][i]a bunch of[/b][/i] child refugees

The views of the people were that they wanted more of Labour and Blair. Here is the 2005 general election map for Scotland which took place after the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

[img] [/img]

Ironic that the English are now pointing the blame for their woes north.

It took a while for people to wake up about Labour - for most of my life, Labour could have put up a shop dummy with a red rosette and it'd have been elected in Glasgow. Their fall from grace has been spectacular.

It's not over yet. JC will finish the job.

It's about having a government that represents the views of the people.

Which is ironic as it appears one of the main drivers for England voting Tory in the last election was to avoid the SNP tail wagging the Labour dog.

Which is ironic as it appears one of the main drivers for England voting Tory in the last election was to avoid the SNP tail wagging the Labour dog.

That was the media perception, I think there's been polling that shows that that wasn't such an issue in reality.

It's hard to know what Labour can do. There was another poll which asked Scots if Corbyn would make them more likely to vote Labour. 50% said no difference, 32% said less likely.

Labour is about as popular as the Tories in Scotland now. It's hard to know what Labour can do about that, to win the Westminster election. Maybe cutting Scottish Labour loose and then working constructively with the SNP would help, I'm not sure.

[quote=wrecker ]

Ironic that the English are now pointing the blame for their woes north.

But disregarding ethnic/geographical affiliations at least we can all get behind solving this air/water/poverty/food/pollution/climate/extinction stuff, can't we?

Completely untrue though isn't it scotroutes?
The scots are almost exclusively SNP now so by leaving they wouldn't actually be changing anything with regards to UK elections.

That was the media perception, I think there's been polling that shows that that wasn't such an issue in reality.

I've heard a few people say that keeping the SNP out was a factor for them, but overwhelmingly the main reason for the move away from NuLab that I've heard people say was the Milliband factor.

Completely untrue though isn't it scotroutes?
The scots are almost exclusively SNP now so by leaving they wouldn't actually be changing anything with regards to UK elections.

Some people seem to have difficulty understanding that the election of a British government, even a Labour one, isn't usually affected by the vote in Scotland.

wrecker - Member - Block User - Quote
Completely untrue though isn't it scotroutes?

Ben raises the idea that an independent Scotland could somehow "inspire" disenfranchised English voters but then we're back to the "who will vote for Corbyn" discussion; either there's an army of non-voters waiting for the right party or the electorate just aren't interested in those sorts of policies.

TBH, I'm probably too far removed to make sensible attempt at discerning which is true.

so the English always get the laws and policies they vote for.

Not always. Didn't Labour have to rely on their Scottish MP's to impose tuition fees on England?

[quote=epicsteve ]

so the English always get the laws and policies they vote for.

either there's an army of non-voters waiting for the right party or the electorate just aren't interested in those sorts of policies

Which gets us back to discussions of whether the English electorate is more right-wing than the Scottish electorate.

Really, though, it's still the same fundamental problem that the only parties that are electable under the Westminster system seem to be right-of-centre ones.

At the moment, yes.