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Yet ironically it's insularity and xenophobia that may well pull the UK out of Europe, and lead to the breakup of the UK.
And ever so nearly did in 2014.
And ever so nearly did in 2014.
Scotland is much more outward-looking than the UK as a whole - 2014 was about that, not insularity and xenophobia, completely the opposite.
Scotland is much more outward-looking than the UK as a whole
What [i]are[/i] you waffling about? How do you know that, whatever gave you that idea?
Jeez, where does the BS stop!?!?
So if england wanted to be indy = xenophobia
If some people in the Uk wanted a divorce from teh EU = xenophobia
Scotland want indy = openmindedness
Bollocks.
From the Auld Alliance to today's arguments about refugees, Scotland has been more interested in other peoples and countries - kinda helps also that so many Scots emigrated.
I'm just countering the daft suggestion that Scottish independence is about insularity and xenophobia, when it's more about getting away from our increasingly insular and xenophobic neighbour.
All these tales of people treating you differently for not being English, doesn't that make them xenophobic or is that OK if its just against the English?
I have always considered myself English rather than British but its not something that I think defines me, just somewhere where I was born.
One thing I have always wanted to know though, does every Scottish pub have a local called Tommy who is an expert on the national team and gets rather feisty after a few ales, like every pub in England seems to have a 'jock' character?
Who is we? There wasn't ever a 'we'.
That'd be the Welsh collective that you mentioned [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/why-are-scottish-and-welsh-folk-so-patriotic/page/2#post-7464915 ]here[/url].
EDIT:
All these tales of people treating you differently for not being English, doesn't that make them xenophobic or is that OK if its just against the English?
Now we've gone from disdain to xenophobia! That's as bad, if not worse, as confusing patriotism with nationalism.
I'm just countering the daft suggestion that Scottish independence is about insularity and xenophobia
And I'm demonstrating that anyone wanting a "no" to EU is not xenophobic, no more so than the scots wanting independence (or any english people who might want same).
Your scost being more openminded than anyone else stuff is still bollocks BTW.
gordimhor - Member
...Scots have a lot to take responsibility for such as their part in the slave trade...
Which part?
The part where a few establishment figures made a fortune, or the part where far more Scots (mainly Highlanders) were sold as slaves by the landowners? Not to mention those shipped over to the West Indies by Cromwell.
Surely them Iraqis and Egypians win that one?
Your history teaching is out of date - modern archaeology suggests that Britian first produced Bronze... you know there may be an epoch named after it 😀
Indeed Ben I hope the xenophobes don't take control of the EU referendum
Love the openmindidness idea though 😉 no need to ask for the link !!!
Actually Ben, you may have a point. Look at the ownership of whisky and NS Oil. Good old Johnny Foreigner and his deep pockets, eh?. Meanwhile the rest of us are moaning about the French owning our utilities. I stand corrected 😉
atlaz - Member
Wait, we're in a competition for who has the best history? Surely them Iraqis and Egypians win that one?
Nah, the Orcadians IMO.
So if the situation were reversed - that Wales was the dominant power and was destroying your English communities to serve its needs - you're telling us that this wouldn't be a factor in your annoyance?I don't believe you.
On another level, are the people of Staunton Harrold miffed that their farms were flooded to supply water to Leicester? I've no idea, I suspect most of them are dead now? But I doubt they were miffed that the water wasn't personally for them, and I doubt they were miffed enough to care that other people cared enough about it that they harbored a grudge against those benefiting from it.
Which part?The part where a few establishment figures made a fortune, or the part where far more Scots were sold as slaves?
That'd pretty much apply to any country you pick between Scotland and west Africa.
Indeed Ben I hope the xenophobes don't take control of the EU referendum
Looking at who's leading the In and Out campaigns, I'm in the unusual position of wanting both sides to lose 😉
It was my Welsh friends at college that taught me to
a) be English and not British
b) be proud of being English
As we were just moving into the era when English rugby dominated it was not a bad time (by the end of college) to be taught it 😀
Nationalism, patriotism. Its a diversion.
Blaming the English for reservoirs in Wales, But which members of the "English" should you be referring to? Whoever they were, they were going to do what they did regardless of whether it was in Wales, Scotland, England, Ireland, or further afield.
Scots were at the heart of the Empire, serving in great numbers in the military - but you have to ask yourself why that's the case. Are Scots naturally more violent? Or was it that once Highland culture in particular was crushed after 1745, there wasn't much else for young men to do?
Its about survival. You went where the money was, where a better future could have been.
It's classic behaviour for all empires to recruit their cannon fodder from the peoples they've crushed
It is, including from its own nation. The English, Welsh, Scots, Irish all went off and did the bidding of its empire, just as the English, Welsh, Scots, and Irish running the show demanded it.
The landowners, the industrialists, business leaders, the politicians, royalty etc.
This belief in nationalism. Its a game, currently being played by the likes of Trump and Putin.
The simple fact is while we further down the food chain engage in petty nationalism/patriotism, those higher up, The landowners, the industrialists, business leaders, the politicians, royalty etc, have always been engaged in the class game.
So you should really be asking yourself who is to blame, not what nationality is to blame.
Nationalism, patriotism. Is a diversion. On this island it has always been about class.
We never asked to be!
Well in that case don’t blame the modern English.
Blame your distance ancestors from the 11 and 12th centuries and their economy based on pastoralism supplemented by inter clan cattle raiding.
I’ve they’d stuck their side of Offa’s Dyke all well and good. But if you are going to start interfering with the settled pastoral/arable economies of your big powerful Norman neighbours, you are going to start pissing them off.
Do you think the Norman’s really wanted to conquer Wales? It was difficult and expensive and didn’t generate any income.
They would much rather have been left alone to oppress the English and carve out mini kingdoms along the Welsh Marches.
Or was it that once Highland culture in particular was crushed after 1745
And as for Scots whinging about being oppressed. I think you’ll find that 500/600 years ago they were quite capable of doing a bit of oppression of their Southern neighbours. And if it weren’t for various Scottish interferences we wouldn’t have had a Civil war that as a percentage of population probably resulted in more English deaths than any other war in history.
1745 and the death of Highland cultue? Blame a Scottish dynasty and their repeated attempt to seize the crown of a country that no longer wanted them. If it hadn’t been for Bonny Prince ****ing Charlie the Highland Scots would have been fine.
But I won’t use the mistakes of people who lived by other rules in other eras to judge folk today.
Apart for the Germans…. Obviously.
On another level, are the people of Staunton Harrold miffed that their farms were flooded to supply water to Leicester? I've no idea, I suspect most of them are dead now? But I doubt they were miffed that the water wasn't personally for them, and I doubt they were miffed enough to care that other people cared enough about it that they harbored a grudge against those benefiting from it.
Did Leicester invade Staunton Harrold, treat it less favourably for several centuries, ban its language and refuse to acknowledge its culture and history?
It's really not at all difficult to see why the Welsh might not be entirely happy with their treatment, unless you decide you don't want to.
The bitterness is astounding. Is it something in the water?
So you should really be asking yourself who is to blame, not what nationality is to blame.Nationalism, patriotism. Is a diversion. On this island it has always been about class.
Class and nationality can't be easily separated. The British Empire brought with it a set of ideas about soceity, money and markets.
In Wales, one of the arguments from London for removing Welsh from schooling was because it was seen as a language of emotion - not one for trade and business. So it was best removed.
There was also a disdain for Welsh culture, it was viewed as nice but of no real value. Instead sport was promoted because it helped to breed those competitive qualities needed for the marketplace.
These ideas have helped to mould modern day Wales.
Obviously I recognise it as a country in a strictly factual sense, but I would never identify as British unless 'Scottish' wasn't an option, i.e. on customs declarations/passport forms etc.
You miss my point.
We are all taking part in a shared activity that groups us together mainly as *Brits*. Most of what we do is done as Brits. In other words, we watch the same TV, listen to the same music on the radio, read the same books, *mostly* talk about the same issues and so on.
Language is a big part of this - the language we all share. But there are plenty of other shared cultural and social experiences. This is why the UK is not just a political boundary.
Didn't the British also bring torture, genocide, concentration camps, legalised rapes, murder, starvation and a whole other host of down right naughty things under the flag of 'We are superior'
(and that was even after WW2)
As Scotland/Northen Ireland started out on a separate continent (Laurentia) to England/Wales (Avalonia), separated by the Iapetus Ocean, perhaps the differences in people are explained by the magnetic orientation in the rocks 
perhaps the differences in people is explained by the magnetic orientation in the rock
Thanks Mikey - does that mean that if wear a magnetic bracelet of the correct orientation I can become Welsh/Scottish?
Didn't the British also bring torture, genocide, concentration camps, legalised rapes, murder, starvation and a whole other host of down right naughty things under the flag of 'We are superior'
Yes - we were committing those crimes in Kenya in the 1950s. Yet the myth of the benign, civilising empire persists.
Thanks Mikey - does that mean that if wear a magnetic bracelet of the correct orientation I can become Welsh/Scottish?
Yep! You can become any nationality you want, as long as you wear the appropriate, magnetised bracelet 😆
Molgrips, that beating thing for using the local language was still going on in the Highlands at the start of the 1970s, as I can vouch from personal experience.
Anyone overheard using the gaelic at the village school I attended was belted; a policy introduced by English incomers at the council's Education department and enforced by an English incomer headmaster. English was the language of the educated upper classes and only village peasants used the old tongue. It took a long time to reverse that policy. Oppression has been pursued in so many ways.
English was the language of the educated upper classes and only village peasants used the old tongue. It took a long time to reverse that policy
You can see how this would happen as the upper classes bent over backwards in order to demonstrate the level of education and power by allowing French to be spoken in Parliament and allow so much French vocabulary to enter the [i]English[/i] language. 😆
Yes - we were committing those crimes in Kenya in the 1950s. Yet the myth of the benign, civilising empire persists.
Is this 'we' the Welsh, or 'we' the British?
thinking of changing my username to ‘BlightySmith’ or ‘SouthernSoftie’ might help with my sense of identity. or do i have be a premium member to do that? just askin like.
Is this the right time to point out the the English (as in Anglo-Saxon) aren't actually British (and should be deported back to Germany as the offspring of illegal immigrants that they are 😉 ), whereas the Welsh and southern Scots (and northern English I think) are Britons / British.
Stop worrying about other people and what their forefathers did to your forefathers and be yourself and who you want to be.
Countries are good for picking sporting terms and for creating economic blocks and providing services that can be used for the benefit of their citizens. Beyond that, not much use.
By the way can someone remind the right wingers that there were Ethiopians in 'England' before there were English - Abyssinian legions on Hadrian's Wall. No point to that just amusing - to me if no one else.
Is this 'we' the Welsh, or 'we' the British?
I'm pretty sure that there wasn't a Welsh empire.
Stop worrying about other people and what their forefathers did to your forefathers and be yourself and who you want to be.
'xactly.
Stop worrying about other people and what their forefathers did to your forefathers and be yourself and who you want to be.
I'm Welsh and patriotic, unfortunately some need that I have to justify this.
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I accept you as Welsh and patriotic.
You do realise better options are available?
The bicycle, the pneumatic tyre, penicillin, the telephone, TV, modern capitalism, the postage stamp... Ok we might have messed up on a few.
I'm Welsh and patriotic, unfortunately some need that I have to justify this.
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[quote=ads678 spake unto the masses, saying]The bitterness is astounding. Is it something in the water?
Probably - all the decent stuff is piped to Manchester. The poor dears only have puddles left over.
Is this the right time to point out the the English (as in Anglo-Saxon) aren't actually British (and should be deported back to Germany as the offspring of illegal immigrants that they are ), whereas the Welsh and southern Scots (and northern English I think) are Britons / British.
Check out Stephen Oppenheimer "Origins of the British" the 'Saxons' may well have been here for much longer (or maybe not).
The South Eastern Scots are mostly 'Sassenachs' (from memory I think that includes you Edinburgh folk).
The South Western Scots are Irish who could swim.
The Scousers are Vikings who could swim from Ireland.
The Western Isles/Shetland/Orkney are Norwegians.
Quite a few of the southern Welsh are Flandrians (may explain G's success) whilst some of the Northern Welsh are Spanish.
All you Northerners are Vikings too...
Which leaves Cornwall and Wessex (look at the history of Wessex king's names which suggest Anglo-Saxonised British names) as the true British.
CBA reading the whole thread but only two pages in and there was already some pretty lame Scottish 'we're better than you/more liked than you' stuff going on. 🙁
I'm British, of mostly Welsh/Irish origin and have lots of family who either live in or come from Scotland. However you want to dress it up, being patriotic is always about saying 'we're better than that other lot over there' in some way. It's just 'cool' to be patriotic in Scotland and Wales whereas it isn't in England.
In some ways it's sad because we have partly lost our identity as a result. Mind you at least we don't base our identity on a load of supposed traditions that were actually made up by the Victorians. 😉
DaRC_L - Member
Check out Stephen Oppenheimer "Origins of the British" the 'Saxons' may well have been here for much longer (or maybe not).
The South Eastern Scots are mostly 'Sassenachs' (from memory I think that includes you Edinburgh folk).
The South Western Scots are Irish who could swim.
The Scousers are Vikings who could swim from Ireland.
The Western Isles/Shetland/Orkney are Norwegians.
Quite a few of the southern Welsh are Flandrians (may explain G's success) whilst some of the Northern Welsh are Spanish.
All you Northerners are Vikings too...
Which leaves Cornwall and Wessex (look at the history of Wessex king's names which suggest Anglo-Saxonised British names) as the true British.
I take that as not from Middle east or north Africa or Asia then? 😆
Didn't the British also bring torture, genocide, concentration camps, legalised rapes, murder, starvation and a whole other host of down right naughty things under the flag of 'We are superior'
Or the good old days as it's known 😉
being patriotic is always about saying 'we're better than that other lot over there' in some way
No, that's nationalism.
1745 and the death of Highland cultue? Blame a Scottish dynasty and their repeated attempt to seize the crown of a country that no longer wanted them. If it hadn’t been for Bonny Prince ****ing Charlie the Highland Scots would have been fine
True. The thing we tend to forget in Scotland is that this period of history wasn't about Scotland vs England. It was more about Protestant vs Catholic and the various strands of regal family fighting it for power were ultimately all offspring of James VI and I.
The problem with patriotism and sense of identity based on historical headlines is that the full story is rarely so clear cut. Like Rangers fans lauding King Billy's Irish adventures but launching abuse at the English King behind the events which led to the Glencoe massacre.
Each of the home nations has plenty to be proud about without needing to denigrate its neighbours.
No, that's nationalism.
Two sides of the same coin.
Two sides of the same coin.
Again, no it's not.
Nationalism is putting others down to make yourself feel good.
Patriotism is feeling good about yourself and not giving two hoots about anyone else.
I see no problem in being proud of who you are like being patriotic, nationalistic whatever "tic" or "ism" there are.
They want it then come and get it but never let them take it easy.
Fight! Fight! Fight! The winner makes the rules! No two ways about that.
Again, no it's not.
Nationalism is putting others down to make yourself feel good.
Patriotism is feeling good about yourself and not giving two hoots about anyone else.
Trying to pretend there isn't a fairly massive crossover between the two is just silly.
Trying to pretend there isn't a fairly massive crossover between the two is just silly.
Only the uneducated get confused between definitions, definitions are clear. Misusing the language is somewhat more difficult to justify and that half the point of this thread as I don't think the OP understands the difference. Nothing wrong with being patriotic as many have said, it's harmless afterall. Insulting or denegrating your neighbours under the banner of nationalism is not acceptable. A huge difference between the two.
EDIT: Isn't that a UKIP strategy, saying that their own special brand of racism is, in fact, just some good old harmless patriotism?
So we're all allowed to be patriotic regardless of histories atrocities. It's all just a bit of friendly banter over an imaginary line and we all love each other really then?
Excellent!! I love being British. 😀
captainsasquatch - Member
Insulting or denegrating your neighbours under the banner of nationalism is not acceptable. A huge difference between the two.
Fight!
The left fight. The right should fight too.
Everyone fights!
Just like our forefathers ... 🙄
Winner set the rules. Simple.
Only the uneducated get confused between definitions, definitions are clear.
What's that if not a cheap dig?
Nothing wrong with being patriotic as many have said, it's harmless afterall.
I disagree.
Insulting or denegrating your neighbours under the banner of nationalism is not acceptable. A huge difference between the two.
So this harmless patriotism, when people are being proud of where they are from, their traditions, culture etc - what are they comparing against? Nothing?
So we're all aloud to be patriotic regardless of histories atrocities.
I doubt you'll find any country which hasn't got skeletons in their closet....
So this harmless patriotism, when people are being proud of where they are from, their traditions, culture etc - what are they comparing against? Nothing?
Exactly! You've got it. You don't have to copmare to anything.
Except that people obviously do, all the time, as we can see even just from this thread.
I was pretty obviously making the point that it's impossible for people to do that in isolation. You may disagree, but you could try doing it without being patronising and facetious.
I doubt you'll find any country which hasn't got skeletons in their closet....
I'm not looking for them. I think we should stop looking for them and just get on with it. Pointless living in the past, we can't change that.
I'm all for patriotism, but the bitching is really boring.
OK, so fifth post in, is this patriotism, nationalism, or a bit of both?
Scotland is awesome. Being Scottish is totes amazeballs. Despite our lighthearted internal squabbles and differences we're all Scottish together. All the time, not just when the football is on.English people don't understand because they're all too busy looking down on their regional English neighbours. Scousers hate the Mancs. Geordies hate Mackems. Yorkshiremen hate everyone. Everyone hates Londoners.
And that's the difference between nationalism and patriotism. I'm proud and patriotic about being Welsh, it doesn't make the Dutch, Germans, Australians, Indians, Americans, Brasilians, etc crap. Those that do compare are being nationalistic and i can't make the term patriotic fit that definition, no matter hard I try. It's simply semantics.
Again, no it's not.
Nationalism is putting others down to make yourself feel good.
Patriotism is feeling good about yourself and not giving two hoots about anyone else.
As grum is hinting at, this suggest that the thread title may need editing perhaps?
I'm proud and patriotic about being Welsh, it doesn't make the Dutch, Germans, Australians, Indians, Americans, Brasilians, etc crap
What about the English? Go on, say you like the English as well.... 😉
OK, so fifth post in, is this patriotism, nationalism, or a bit of both?Scotland is awesome. Being Scottish is totes amazeballs. Despite our lighthearted internal squabbles and differences we're all Scottish together. All the time, not just when the football is on.
English people don't understand because they're all too busy looking down on their regional English neighbours. Scousers hate the Mancs. Geordies hate Mackems. Yorkshiremen hate everyone. Everyone hates Londoners.
I feel reasonably qualified to identify what this is.
It's slightly exaggerated sterotyping for comic effect basically trying to poke fun at our English neighbours who let an overabundance of self loathing get in the way of a bit of entirely justifiable national pride.
Lighten up England. Stop Hating yourself quite so much and be proud of the good stuff.
For the record, I think most of England is pretty awesome too and choose it as my holiday destination every year.
Just not Slough.... it's a shitehole.
TBH I bailed out of this thread when we started accusing each other of centuries old atrocities. Not Cool.
I like the English as much as I like the Dutch, Germans, Australians, etc. Again like is not an antonym for crap.
It's slightly exaggerated sterotyping for comic effect basically trying to poke fun at our English neighbours who let an overabundence of self loathing get in the way of a bit of entirely justifiable national pride.
OK cool. Do you think there might be a sweet spot in between 'overabundence of self-loathing' and excessive patriotism? 🙂
Maybe we could just, you know, be people and not let where we happen to have been born be a defining factor of our personalities? Crazy I know.
captainsasquatch - Member
I like the English
Right, we're onto something here.
Everyone knows the English don't really hate anyone, we're just too reserved/scared to show any real love.
If we can get a Scot to say they like the English we can save the union!!
perchypanther nearly said it.... ^^^^^
OK cool. Do you think there might be a sweet spot in between 'overabundence of self-loathing' and excessive patriotism?
There is undoubdedly a massive sweet spot where this is entirely possible. Just get on the M6 and drive north. You'll find it eventually.
Edit: I like the English. I love the English.... they just can't find it in themselves to like or love themselves. If you want to see what English patriotism should look like ...go to Cornwall. They are as proud and patriotic about their part of the world as any Scotsman or Welshman without coming across as dicks about it.
ads678 - Membercaptainsasquatch - Member
I like the EnglishRight, we're onto something here.
Everyone knows the English don't really hate anyone, we're just too reserved/scared to show any real love.
If we can get a Scot to say they like the English we can save the union!!
😆 😆 😆 🙄 😆
I don't agree with a lot of this- Orwell was a fud- but this is interesting reading considering where the thread's gone now, I kind of alluded to it earlier but should have linked
http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat
There is undoubdedly a massive sweet spot where this is entirely possible.
You're certainly a lot closer to the sweet spot than Wales. In fact Wales is sort of at the extreme end of both at the same time somehow. 🙂
BTW we have a separatist/nationalist movement here in Yorkshire!
http://www.yorkshirefirst.org.uk
(not to be confused with Britain First)
BTW we have a separatist/nationalist movement here in Yorkshire!
I visit York every October for a weekend for no other reason than I really like it. It's a fabulous city...but every single time I visit i'm informed that as a Scotsman, it's still legal to shoot arrows at me. 😯
They are as proud and patriotic about their part of the world as any Scotsman or Welshman without coming across as dicks about it.
Eh?
They're just parochial.
Eh? They're just parochial.
.....which kinda demonstrates my original point.
English people don't understand because they're all too busy looking down on their regional English neighbours
QED
The most hilariously parochial example I've ever seen of looking down on your regional neighbours was on Islay in Scotland. In one of the pubs in Port Ellen the local football team gave a rousing seemingly heartfelt rendition of:
Oh they're all a bunch of bastards in Bowmore
Oh they're all a bunch of bastards in Bowmore
They're all a bunch of bastards
All a bunch of bastards
Oh they're all a bunch of bastards in Bowmore
😀
@epicyclo Yes principally the tobacco Lords few in number maybe but I suggest not something a modern Scot should be proud of
[url= https://glasgowwestindies.wordpress.com/the-scottish-involvement-with-caribbean-slavery/ ]Glasgow and the West Indies [/url]
...and Peter Reid apparently has a monkeys heed. 🙂
What's yer point caller? That people who support one football team sometimes say unpleasant things about supporters of an opposing team? How very parochial of them.:-)
thanks for the answers...I'm still confused !
They're just parochial.
Parochial wasn't he the wooden boy with the extending nose
The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war.
Sydney J. Harris, Strictly Personal (1953), "Purely Personal Prejudices"
Of course - there are many ardent Nationalists that will swear they are 'merely' patriots as if patriotism is somehow watered-down Nationalism. I agree with grum that they are connected, and often 'two sides of a coin' even if only as a 'polite' cover for Nationalism. Those who for whatever reason make no distinction in usage view both words as interchangeable. More confusing still - one can be both and the other. ie the US patriot who says 'my Country right or wrong'. He might not even know he's a Nationalist as Nationalism is normalised in his experience of being a 'patriot'.
All very confusing. I'm sticking to humanism, and I don't care what your grandad did wrong
Do you think the Norman’s really wanted to conquer Wales? It was difficult and expensive and didn’t generate any income.
I hope you're not studying history. Or maybe you are and just haven't got to the Normans yet. They were great, the Normans but one thing to know about them - they weren't peaceful pastoralists who took ages to wind up. They didn't invade Wales because we annoyed them. 😉
It's slightly exaggerated sterotyping for comic effect basically trying to poke fun at our English neighbours who let an overabundence of self loathing get in the way of a bit of entirely justifiable national pride
What's self loathing got to do with it? What's wrong with just going about your business and not worrying about how your birth nation defines you and wanting affirmation and recognition for that?
Think I'll stick with indifference or "self loathing" as you call it rather than overblown self aggrandisment based on nationality.
What's wrong with just going about your business and not worrying about how your birth nation defines you and wanting affirmation and recognition for that?
Wont happen. The ego craves identity, purpose, and belonging too much.
Wont happen. The ego craves identity, purpose, and belonging too much.
I don't worry about how my birth nation defines me (except for govt or group behaviour making me and my family a target for those wronged by my birth Nation), neither do I want affirmation or recognition for it. Does this mean my ego is either broken, or is it not fragile enough? Serious question...the whole thing is lile racial politics and gender identity politics. I just wish people would back off, that it would all just f-off so we can find out what humans can REALLY do when we get tired of going around in predictable, insecure, childish circles Harumph.
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