[Closed] Why are Scottish and Welsh folk so patriotic ?

Can't speak for Wales but Scotland's [i]pretty good[/i], that's why. Always seems weird to me that folks elsewhere are so quick to knock the place they were born. "This country's gone to the dogs" "We'll make it great again". Britain's a great place to live, we're lucky, celebrate it!

Why not? Aren't the English are equally patriotic about England (as opposed to the UK)?
What's wrong with being patriotic?

Are English folk not? Is not the whole anti Europe, general xenophobia vibe that we hear so much about not just a feeling that the English are superior to others? 😀

Scotland is awesome. Being Scottish is totes amazeballs. Despite our lighthearted internal squabbles and differences we're all Scottish together. All the time, not just when the football is on.

English people don't understand because they're all too busy looking down on their regional English neighbours. Scousers hate the Mancs. Geordies hate Mackems. Yorkshiremen hate everyone. Everyone hates Londoners.

Lots to be proud of in terms of cultural heritage. As above why should we not be proud?

I think you'll generally find any nation that has bigger neighbours tends to be patriotic, especially if at times they are dominated by the neighbour. Thinking e.g. foreigners not understanding that we aren't "English".

Plus a long, long history of bitter oppression might have something to do with it...

Plus a long, long history of bitter oppression might have something to do with it...

Plus a long, long history of imagined bitter oppression might have something to do with it...

There you go, fixed that for you. And yes, I'm Scottish too.

England is ranked least patriotic nation in Europe, below Germany and France. Scotland was ranked a close 2nd, behind The Netherlands and just in front of Wales and Italy. This was a self ranking survey where participants scored themselves on a scale 1-10.

Maybe the low scores for some of the countries can be tied to the links to far right extremists. E.g the use of the national flag by these types of groups put ordinary people off the idea through fear of being associated with them.

[quote=drovercycles ]I think you'll generally find any nation that has bigger neighbours tends to be patriotic, especially if at times they are dominated by the neighbour. This.
Go to Canada and there are flags everywhere. [i]Made in Canada[/i] emblazoned everywhere and they even have their own version of the McDonalds Golden Arches with a wee Maple Leaf. They are absolutely desperate to ensure that you know you're not in the USA.

Scotland is awesome. Being Scottish is totes amazeballs. Despite our lighthearted internal squabbles and differences we're all Scottish together. All the time, not just when the football is on.

Yeah, cos people from Edinburgh just love Glaswegians. Come to think of it Celitic supporters adore those who support Rangers.
The short answer is because that is how the Scots have been brought up. In England, nationalism is a dirty word, by and large, as an Englishman living in Scotland it is one of the most obvious differences between the two countries. I must admit, believing that a certain country is great, just because you were born there has always seemed massively egocentric, but there y'go.

Yeah, apparently 24% of english people thing the st george's cross is a racist symbol, it's a very poisoned brand. Which is bizarre- skinheads, hooligans, we're talking about a tiny fraction of the population, how does that come to represent so much? Why focus on the negative? But I guess it's a tiny, active fraction vs a large passive fraction. Course, the nation isn't the flag but it's a strong symbol, we can fly ours without worrying whether that dude over there thinks we're racists.

Orwell talked a lot of pish about nationalism vs patriotism but there's a wee bit of truth in it, a lot of english-centred nationalism/patriotism has been about power- beating other people at wars, pride in the empire, very expansive and power focused. And if that's key to your patriotism, it must suck when it stops. The US's still on a high with that one.

(I'm sure Scots would like a go at that if we could but we've mostly focused on battling age old enemies, the scots. We still get excited about that time we conquered some goalposts)

An excellent question, and one that I have had to give a lot of thought to as a 'immigrant' to Wales.

Funny enough, for all that Wales has a distinct identity, and unabashedly flies the flag on every building possible, it is also the most welcoming and inclusive place I have been in the UK (other than London).

One of the reasons - I think - is that, as young as the country feels, it also has a sense of confidence about itself that means strangers present no threat. By contrast, in England, where it sometimes seems tantamount being a member of the BNP to fly either the Union flag or the Cross of St George, I sense a crisis of confidence that there even is an English identity, let alone one that can confidently welcome in others.

As a result, England ends up being afraid of any expressions of patriotism for fear of being exclusive, ambivalent to the idea of an English identity at all, and ultimately, less able to engage with the challenge of 'other'.

Then again, I may be wrong. But I think there is at least some truth to what I say.

drovercycles » I think you'll generally find any nation that has bigger neighbours tends to be patriotic, especially if at times they are dominated by the neighbour.

This.
Go to Canada and there are flags everywhere. Made in Canada emblazoned everywhere and they even have their own version of the McDonalds Golden Arches with a wee Maple Leaf. They are absolutely desperate to ensure that you know you're not in the USA.

Maybe, but how would that then explain the patriotism of the USA?

Plus a long, long history of bitter oppression might have something to do with it...

They have the English to define themselves in opposition to.

Wales is Ace. We have all the best trail centres 😀

Plus we can spell stuff how WE want to ... Tacsi, Ambwlance, Stopio...etc 😀

Its the sense of being the other side of a one way mirror when you're next door to a larger, culturally dominant neighbour. From your side of the mirror see everything that goes on in England clearly, when England looks at the mirror it only sees its only idea of its neighbours reflected back. Theres something galvanising for those neighbours that comes from being hidden in plain sight.

That. And the narcissism of small differences.

English people don't understand because they're all too busy looking down on their regional English neighbours. Scousers hate the Mancs. Geordies hate Mackems. Yorkshiremen hate everyone. Everyone hates Londoners.

I do find the overt nationalism of the regions (scotland, wales, yorkshire etc) quite endearing.
Not sure why they wear it on their sleeve so much though?

As a result, England ends up being afraid of any expressions of patriotism for fear of being exclusive, ambivalent to the idea of an English identity at all, and ultimately, less able to engage with the challenge of 'other'.

Havent a clue what you are trying to say, try reading a bit of Orwell on the English

I personally think the English are just weird.

To be clear I don't think the Celtic nations have suffered oppression in living memory. But go back 100 years, 200 years, 500 years...

It happened. It goes some way to explaining passions that still exist, IMHO.

I do find the overt nationalism of the regions (scotland, wales, yorkshire etc) quite endearing.
Not sure why they wear it on their sleeve so much though?

I think you are confusing Scotland and Wales with the nine regions of England.

I do find the overt [s]nationalism[/s] patriotism of the regions (scotland, wales, yorkshire etc) quite endearing.
Not sure why they wear it on their sleeve so much though?

I am watching you lot Freedoommm folks ... 😛

I just wanted to include gods own country, birthplace of Boycott , the chuckle brothers and other things of greatness. 😐

There isn't just one type of nationalism though innit. Scottish Welsh etc is civic ie inclusive nationalism, whereas the English variety is just nasty.

Yeah, cos people from Edinburgh just love Glaswegians.

Always irked me this statement when it's made. Sure there'll some Edinburgh folk disliking Glaswegians and vice versa. But not everyone. I'm born and live in Edinburgh and think Glasgow is awesome. Bloody huge place as well compared to Edinburgh. Lots of very cool bars and great places to eat. My only complaint is I don't go through there nearly enough.

It's just an inferiority complex, chip on shoulder, call it what you wish, but Scotland and Wales simply hate the English as that sort of narrow minded xenophobic "hate" appears permissible when you dress it up as a "regional nationality".

The truth is, the English don't really have the counter distinction, we view them as one might an annoying little sister. We even quite like them, and would cheer for them in sports.And that's what makes the Scots and Welsh so mad, that the English view them far more paternally, and that largely, the hate is one way traffic. It makes them feel patronised, peevish, and powerless, that they can't make the English despise them, no matter how badly they try to make us.

The fact of the matter is that to be patriotic, you have to have a selective mindset. Just concentrate on all the positives and ignore all the negatives and you are there. You can be proud of your country. Everyone in Scotland loves each other. What's sectarianism?

National identity in the UK is a horribly fuzzy thing. It has been complicated by the, largely succesful, attempt to create an all encompassing Britishness.

Personally, I think all the nations have suffered - including England, which has seen Englishness rebranded into a toxic form of Britishness.

Scotland has started to unravel the mess and is moving off in its own direction.

Wales, meanwhile, could be viewed as one of the least patriotic countries in the world.

How many countries have a population which views the prospect of running its own affairs as scary and absurd? Even the Welsh party created to campaign for independence, no longer dares mention it.

How many countries don't have any real kind of national media for the majority of its population? Don't teach the majority of its children to speak the country's language or about its history?

It's likely that UKIP, an English nationalist party who recently campaigned for the abolition of the Welsh Assembly, will soon become the third largest party in Wales.

[quote=Jujuuk68 ]It's just an inferiority complex, chip on shoulder, call it what you wish, but Scotland and Wales simply hate the English I'm afraid that the "chip" is actually on the shoulders of [i]some[/i] English people who have been led to believe that they are hated.

Inferiority? Dinnae think so. I think its you jujuuuk being patronising.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_inventions_and_discoveries

We invented the bike!

Jujuuk68 - Member

It's just an inferiority complex, chip on shoulder, call it what you wish, but Scotland and Wales simply hate the English as that sort of narrow minded xenophobic "hate" appears permissible when you dress it up as a "regional nationality".

The truth is, the English don't really have the counter distinction, we view them as one might an annoying little sister. We even quite like them, and would cheer for them in sports.And that's what makes the Scots and Welsh so mad, that the English view them far more paternally, and that largely, the hate is one way traffic. It makes them feel patronised, peevish, and powerless, that they can't make the English despise them, no matter how badly they try to make us.

That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. Absolute preposterous.

I think if you had been a resident of Capel Celyn you might disagree that there had been no oppression in the last 100 years. The same continues today in the context of major energy projects where the unaccountable, in Wales, English energy secretary can impose these projects irrespective of local opinion, that's no more than colonialism.

The below nails it for me.

[url= https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1462/24006654154_f2f865f9ca_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1462/24006654154_f2f865f9ca_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/CzonUf ]CYNroxqWsAAQ7fZ[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/82598458@N05/ ]jamesanderson2010[/url], on Flickr

Too many people read too many dodgy tabloids and news articles.
I'm Welsh, but I consider myself British.. With Welsh ancestorie.

It gets my back up a bit when people bang on about bull dogs and the George cross... We are not a religious people, or at least I'd hope we aren't.

In other news, you English are gonna get stuffed by Wales in the six nations!

steveoath - Member

We invented the bike!

And the english invented the bike forum. We win this round.

OK but actually, it's interesting this. Cliche scottish boast- we invented everything. The industrial revolution, chicken tikka masala, penicillin and painkillers, cloning, glorious failure, and the ****ing rap battle.

Cliche english boast- 2 world wars and 1 world cup, doo dah.

For whatever reason, a big part of how we define ourselves is how we've contributed to the wider world rather than local/national triumphs. We're a suburb of a little island but everyone knows the scots. We never conquered the world but we were the workshop of the empire. It's a more generally positive bounce than "we kicked your heads in"- "You couldnae have done it without us". The things that England sees as her greatest successes were all massive, but they're maybe less feelgood.

Eh, and lets just get it said, the english are well known for misappropriating britishness. That's why none of them think it's weird that english-only matters are debated in the british parliament, but do think it's weird for scots to vote in it, for example. And this, as well as being a pain in the arse, just naturally robs them of a clear identity of their own. The Welsh and Scots know exactly who they are and where the border is- what's british and what's welsh and what's scottish and what's english. The english are more diffuse. The irish, well, I'm not lighting [i]that[/i] touchpaper.

No need to feel patriotic or nationalistic. I love accessing the highlands for example but feel no sense that they belong to me or fellow Scots. I know my passport says UK and NI, but I feel no more British than Scottish. I feel no more linked to people in Scotland than elsewhere. Yes there are differences between people but also similarities. To me drawing a line on a map to determine what ties you to someone else seems silly. I may feel closer social ties to someone that likes drum and bass music from France than someone born in Scotland that thinks Braveheart is a documentary.
Many people I speak to that draw national boundaries with distinction on a map are quick to state that all the people in "their" country think differently to country next door who all think the same.

Welsh nationalism is generally far more cuddly than the Scottish variant. Yes the Welsh hate the English but only for the length of the match, whereas some in Scotland manage to hate the English their entire life.

Funny isn't it that as the SNP support has risen, Scottish sport has fallen to the point where it is way behind Wales. I still can't believe the poor quality of footballers now produced in Scotland considering their history.

i wasn't going to bite, but there's some utter tosh being expressed on here

It's just an inferiority complex, chip on shoulder, call it what you wish, but Scotland and Wales simply hate the English as that sort of narrow minded xenophobic "hate" appears permissible when you dress it up as a "regional nationality".

what a sack of balls. i can't speak for the whole of the country, but everyone i know from wales (myself, family, friends etc) supposed hatred of the English goes as far enjoying regularly beating you at rugby in an age old sporting rivalry and some friendly banter mocking / playing up to each others national stereo types on a night down the pub

you can be proud of your roots / country / national identity without having to have a focus of 'hate' to coalesce around

How many countries don't have any kind of national media for the majority of its population? Don't teach the majority of its children to speak the country's language or about its history?

although a far less contentious point, still incorrect - BBC wales, S4C, Western Mail, Wales on Sunday. it's also required by law for all schools in wales to teach kids welsh up to the age of 16

How many countries in the world have a population which views the prospect of running its own affairs as scary and absurd? Even the Welsh party created to campaign for independence, no longer dares mention it.

imho i think this is just more of an acceptance of reality that wales no longer has the industry or natural resources to have the economic security to be a fully independent country.

that an all the bloody immigrants coming over here, taking our jobs - yes i'm looking at you, the 20% of the population who are english living in wales *tongue firmly in cheek*

Country's that have been violated by the English seem patriotic. England just thinks they are entitled to everything
So they are the least patriotic 😉

It's just an inferiority complex, chip on shoulder, call it what you wish, but Scotland and Wales simply hate the English as that sort of narrow minded xenophobic "hate" appears permissible when you dress it up as a "regional nationality".

Hmmm, not at all - if anyone has a chip on their shoulder i feel it is brought into conversation by those who have no sense of personal national identity, perhaps a more in-depth somethingion would involve at the very least a brief history lesson but i surmise a web forum is no place to bring forth such a discussion - I can only speak from my personal experience so it is entirely unquantifiable (but equally valid) in this instance.

I used to have no great affinity nor love for my nation when growing up but on travelling the world i have come to realise that what i have as a birthright is something to be treasured, for sure we, as a nation, participated in some truly horrific actions over the years - I'm speaking about the scottish involvement in slavery as a point here but overall we seem to be more favourably looked upon over our our english counterparts.

When i was 16 in my summer holidays between 4th/5th year back in 1998 my aunt (needless to say an artist who had graduated from the glasgow school in the late 60's) took me to afghanistan where she traveled extensively on a vespa in the early 70's, i met nothing but admiration for the scots people but when the subject of england came up there was much angst and outpouring of grievances, similar when i went to stay with relatives in Zimbabwe in 1994 for almost a year, my scots accent was welcomed everywhere and much was made of it to the point i ended up manager of the Explorers bar in Victoria Falls for the unfortunately few months i spent in the country, again when i went to Turkey in 1998 for a fortnights holiday and decided to stay for 6 months touring about on a 50cc scooter i met nothing but the utmost admiration and the most amazing hospitality for myself/our nation and my accent was yet again commented on favourably - similar yet again when i went to India for 6 months in 2001 with my then GF - we toured about on a an Enfield and travelled quite a fair bit including up into inhospitable areas in Kashmir and brief forays across the border into ****stan and when my accent was heard i yet again encountered nothing but hospitality despite being in places we clearly should not have been.

I did not have an appreciation for my scottish birthright before i started travelling (holidaying if i'm being entirely honest) but due to what i have experienced i have come to realise that i should be appreciative of what i am - make of that what you will

This has led me to have a greater understanding of the scots influence and impact on the world around us and i'm very proud to consider myself Scottish/from Scotland, rather than British to this day.

somafunk - Member

i met nothing but admiration for the scots people but when the subject of england came up there was much angst and outpouring of grievances, similar when i went to stay with relatives in Zimbabwe in 1994 for almost a year

A friend of mine got mugged at gunpoint in Jamaica. They took his wallet, looked inside, decided he was english, suddenly things escalate, tirades of abuse and punches and kicks, he's reasonably sure he's getting shot. Naw, naw mate, am no *in english, am scottish. Scottish, ken? No wan o thae english *s, we hate them too. Every **** does! And suddenly, they're all bezzie mates, and he gets an armed escort back to touristland to make sure he doesn't get shot by some other gang.

They still robbed him mind.

Plus a long, long history of imagined bitter oppression might have something to do with it...

To be clear I don't think the Celtic nations have suffered oppression in living memory. But go back 100 years, 200 years, 500 years...

I think some people need to brush up on their history. Depending on who you listen to, in some parts of Wales kids were being caned for speaking their own language in their own country in the 1930s and 1940s.

If that's not oppression, I don't know what is. Remember Wales was conquered militarily and occupied, and the Welsh deliberately repressed, for a very long time (albeit a long time ago). Imagine if the UK had lost the war, and your kids were being forced to speak German in school. You'd consider yourself oppressed I'm sure.

The situation in Wales is different to that in Scotland, because the history is different.

Anyway - re the OP - Welsh nationalism is a funny thing. I think the Welsh as a nation lack confidence, although not as individuals. I think some people don't like to talk it up much outside of Wales, because of the constant and somewhat unpleasant piss-taking.

😀 sounds about right Northwind.

I've only had one bad encounter when [i]holidaying[/i] and that was attempting to travel between Kupwara in northern kashmir across the line of control into Keran which is claimed by ****stan - we had a letter of safe passage by our previous hosts who were basically tribal warlords in Kashmir (a friend who runs a succesful fish farm charity in the area introduced us) offering safe passage to Keran but we got held up (quite an understatement - one of the scariest moments of my life) by bandits with AK47's who stripped us of all possesions and motorbike and told to walk back out (or else basically), we managed to hitch a lift back to the aforementioned warlords compound and explained what happened and then it all kicked off in the sort of style you only see in movies - A letter or guarantee of safe passage is a genuine bond between warring factions in the area so the normally two opposing factions co-operated to get all our gear back from the bandits and we eventually received an armed escort all the way to Keran. They asked us what we wanted done to the bandits but i'm not ashamed to say i did not have the stomach to pass judgement, it transpired they were ex pakastani troops who had split from the army and i imagine they got dealt with with pretty severely.

Yeah….I'm perfectly happy to describe myself as scottish

Canny really say I feel patriotic in the slightest. It's just not important.

Bullshit.. The Welsh dont hate the English, you've obviously read too many 'news papers' and watched too much of that there telly box.

I'm very proud of my Welsh history and I'm proud to be a Welsh Yorkshire man. Above all that, I'm happy to be British.

I always thought that 'patriotism' was a fondness for waving flags and stuff ie 'Yay, us. I am proud' whilst 'nationalism' is more 'Boo, they are rubbish, keep out'.

In short, patrotism focuses on an 'us' whilst the focus of nationalism is denigration of 'them' .

My perception could be skewed as first encountered the word nationalism when a child visiting Dolgellau area in the late 1970s, Asking my parents what the graffiti meant (on the rocks above Tal-y-Lyn) I learned that day that being English (albeit with Welsh ancestry) wasn't universally appreciated.

We invented the bike!

'We'? I thought some bloke invented it? 😉

*Edit: 'Tal-y-lyn' 😳

The BNP types I encountered in latter years only strengthened this negative definition for me, ie Nationalism = puffing oneself up via dehumanising the 'other'. A self-aggrandising game of stereotypes, scapegoats and hateful prejudices where the player denies and destroys commonality to rebuild differences.

So to anyone who thinks that a negative view of Nationalism is caused by a 'chip on the shoulder' - maybe go and read some Nationalist forums then get back to me - then we'll discuss the meaning of irony.

This is all very quaint. Blinkers at the ready I see 😉

Until we all start thinking as one global family...

It was Neil Armstrong who once likened the Appollo spacecraft whilst returning from his historic moon landing. That he and his two fellow astronauts had to know what every button and switch did on that in order for them to stay alive and as they were orbiting Earth on their return, he realised that our planet was no different to that capsule, a finite resource, hurtling through space, orbiting the Sun....

Hopefully, that makes you think. 🙄

i can't speak for the whole of the country, but everyone i know from wales (myself, family, friends etc) supposed hatred of the English goes as far enjoying regularly beating you at rugby in an age old sporting rivalry and some friendly banter mocking / playing up to each others national stereo types on a night down the pub

And the burning down the houses thing.

I did not have an appreciation for my scottish birthright before i started travelling (holidaying if i'm being entirely honest) but due to what i have experienced i have come to realise that i should be appreciative of what i am - make of that what you will

What an utter pile of w@nk. You are what you are, what you made yourself, not the inheritor of some family jewels, born to be superior.

As Frankie Boyle said - "What can Al Qaeda teach us about religious intolerance? They don't even have a football team."

A friend of mine got mugged at gunpoint in Jamaica. They took his wallet, looked inside, decided he was english, suddenly things escalate, tirades of abuse and punches and kicks, he's reasonably sure he's getting shot. Naw, naw mate, am no *in english, am scottish. Scottish, ken? No wan o thae english *s, we hate them too. Every **** does! And suddenly, they're all bezzie mates, and he gets an armed escort back to touristland to make sure he doesn't get shot by some other gang.

So his assailants, as well as being violent criminals, were also bigots ignorant of history. I'm struggling to see where the "pride" comes in?

a long, long history of imagined bitter oppression might have something to do with it...
There you go, fixed that for you. And yes, I'm Scottish too.

If you want to find bitter oppression, look at Ireland, the Caribbbean, australiasia, the Indian subcontinent or anywhere else the British (including the disproportionate and enthusiastic support of Scots) occupied!

I've only had one bad encounter when holidaying

I have had 2.
One in Scotland, one in Wales. Both for just speaking with an English accent (and not lording it up or drawing attention to oneself but purely ordering some food or just 'being there')

I still have my question for the OP, who typically is conspicuous by his absence, of what's wrong with being patriotic.
A second question is related to why people confuse patriotism with nationalism.
Thirdly and finally, why it is that people can only see nationalism in others.

I think nationalism and patriotism are different in my mind, but possibly not everyone's.

Patriotism celebrates what's good about your country, nationalism celebrates what you see as bad in other countries.

I'm Scots - previous postings will confirm this - and very happy to be so.

Scotland - a country about which a well know Englishman , Winston Churchill, said "Of all the small nations of this earth, perhaps only the ancient Greeks surpass the Scots in their contribution to mankind."

And that maybe sums it up for me. We are an incredible people; we have done amazing things.

But also we are a defined people even when we leave.

England by contrast lacks identity. The English have also done amazing things, but normally (and partly I think because many English struggle to understand the dual identity of English and British - perhaps natural when 80-90% of British are English) as part of Britain.

Should the English celebrate being English? Yes, but you don't start with St. George's day. Start with beer that is as good as and as varied as whisky is in Scotland. Start with Sheffield steel, or railways, or Brunel, or F1 engineering.

Too often, as someone else said, celebrations of Englishness look like the EDL or BNP or UKIP - more a celebration of who they hate.

I live in England (York) and I'm married to an Englishwoman - do I hate England or the English? Not at all, I love you guys with all your faults. Not going to stop me taking the mickey though.

And I think in general and on balance English beer is better than Scots - with the odd exception.

It's interesting - I've become more Scottish and less British as I've aged. Partly, we'e defined by how others see us, and although Scots have always been portrayed as "other" in the mainstream media, it's become more noticeable over the past few years.

I remember the first example I really began to notice was Casualty, the TV show. Any drunk, violent or abusive character was bound to be Scottish - certainly way more than statistically probable in Bristol or wherever that was meant to be filmed.

People keep subtly telling you you're different, you begin to feel different. I think that's what happened with me.

I still have my question for the OP, who typically is conspicuous by his absence, of what's wrong with being patriotic.
A second question is related to why people confuse patriotism with nationalism.
Thirdly and finally, why it is that people can only see nationalism in others.

Interesting questions:
1. Nothing really
2. Because they're similar? I like Benedict Anderson's approach to nationalism that speaks of "imagined communities" whereby people who have never met are bonded by values and images that transcend geography. One can be Welsh for example and live in Oz.
3. That's the way cultural difference works!

I'm surprised language hasn't come up yet. In N.Wales this is a huge deal with language and culture being indivisible. Expensive to maintain though. I'm sympathetic to its preservation (although I haven't learnt), but it is interesting when you meet Welsh born folk who don't speak it. Deffo made to feel less Welsh.

If you want to find bitter oppression, look at Ireland, the Caribbbean, australiasia, the Indian subcontinent or anywhere else the British (including the disproportionate and enthusiastic support of Scots) occupied!

There's no real need to isolate these instances to "British" is there. There are so many, many examples of one group of people turning up armed somewhere other people live and behaving like utter ****s. Belgium's foreign adventures in Africa!

I'm with Athgray on this one tbh. The perceived differences between "us and them" pale into irrelavence compared to the similarities. It's only when those differences are elevated to drive extreme measures that they become irreconcilable, which is not something I see in the Scots or Welsh.

Can't speak for Wales, not spent much time there, but I don't think scots are as patriotic as we are made out to be. Possibly Anglos really don't do the patriotism thing, it magnifies our efforts?.

For every patriotic Scot up here, there's a Celtic fan that for some reason thinks they're Irish, or a Rangers fan who identifies far more with the English. It's quite bizarre.

I like Benedict Anderson's approach to nationalism that speaks of "imagined communities" whereby people who have never met are bonded by values and images that transcend geography. One can be Welsh for example and live in Oz.

Although distinctly Welsh values (another discussion?) escape me for the moment, this ^ nonetheless put me in mind of this:

[img] [/img]

One can be Welsh for example and live in Oz.

Argentina even!

Eh, and lets just get it said, the english are well known for misappropriating britishness. That's why none of them think it's weird that english-only matters are debated in the british parliament, but do think it's weird for scots to vote in it, for example.

Most English people would be happy to have a parliament where only English matters were discussed and only English MPs were able to vote/discuss. Part of the issue is cost; why have a second parliament in London or elsewhere when there's one that is perfectly serviceable. Perhaps they need to have separate sessions but spanking out 400M quid (as in Scotland) on a building and a further 70-100M (depending whose stats you read) annually on servicing it and the structures/people it maintains might be over the top.

As far as misappropriating Britishness I call bullshit. I grew up British (well, I've got a second passport so not purely) but living in England. In Humberside. With my British family all from Yorkshire. None of those defines me more than the other whereas a lot of Scottish/Welsh people (not all, I haven't met them all) are very keen to point out their Scottishness/Welshness ahead of their Britishness. On balance, I'd say English people tend to be mostly defined by their city/county and Britishness rather than "being English".

I don't see that as misappropriating.

It's like the French. The original concept was that citizens are French first and anything else comes after. No matter where your parents were from or what region or city you claim to be yours, you should be French above all else. In practical terms it's hard to do but certainly when I grew up, that was the emphasis at school; British before other things.

I'm surprised language hasn't come up yet. In N.Wales this is a huge deal with language and culture being indivisible. Expensive to maintain though. I'm sympathetic to its preservation (although I haven't learnt), but it is interesting when you meet Welsh born folk who don't speak it. Deffo made to feel less Welsh.

I think you're right. The languages you speak have a big impact on the way you perceive the world. I was brought up in Wales but, like most people, was taught Welsh only as if it were a foreign language.

It provides you with such a basic level of Welsh that's practially useless. It means you're unable to access a big chunk of Welsh history and culture.

I think every child in Wales should be taught at an early age to be able to communicate in Welsh. Then they have a choice in life whether to use it or not.

As far as misappropriating Britishness I call bullshit.

I think that the Welsh or Scottish are no less patriotic than most other nations. I've travelled all over the world and seen this. The question is maybe more why the English are so lacking in patriotism? Anyone here own a flag of St George? MrsG is Welsh and we have all sorts of Welsh based stuff in the house.

It's hard to explain but it has to be a sort of cultural politeness thing "it vulgar to be seen to be a English patriot" maybe?

I think you'll generally find any nation that has bigger neighbours tends to be patriotic, especially if at times they are dominated by the neighbour.

This. It's a variation on the theme of plucky underdogs. See Canada, NZ, Wales, Scotland, no doubt loads more.

The thing that stands out for me being a valley boy and now living in Dorset is the lack of humour here in day to day life.

Am I patriotic? I am proud of being Welsh, I like being Welsh but I am only visibly patriotic when it comes to rugby but as I have pointed out on the rugby thread it is only against the english 😆 but then everyone wants to beat the english 😆 you have to ask yourselves why.

In my lifetime I have seen Wales lose all its heavy industry and been in the slough of despair, now Wales is confident and that has been led IMO by music, bands like the Manics, Stereophonics, Super Furry Animals they all are very Welsh and popular. The resurgence of Cardiff as somewhere splendigedig.

Then you have a series like Gavin and Stacy which was fun, comedians like Rob Brydon, a funny man that can laugh at himself. It all shows us Welshies that we are unique, we have value and we are special 😆

To be honest it's bloody great being Welsh 😆

Funny isn't it that as the SNP support has risen, Scottish sport has fallen to the point where it is way behind Wales. I still can't believe the poor quality of footballers now produced in Scotland considering their history.

Eh?! I have no idea how you equate the rise of a political party to a fall in sporting prowess, but I can assure you that us Scots have been rubbish at football for quite some time. Even before the 'rise' of the SNP!

I still don't know where I should be patriotic for...
Born in India, to scouse mother of Welsh descent.
Lived in England, with Yorkshire wife and kids.
I now live in Scotland (second stretch) and have kids that sound increasingly Scottish.....

(And to paraphrase an earlier post, Scotland is totes amaze, even in its failings)

The question is maybe more why the English are so lacking in patriotism? Anyone here own a flag of St George?

I think it has been packaged and rebranded into a particular form of Britishness which is peddled by the media - a love for monarchy, support for the military and geneal respect for elitist establishments.

To be honest it's bloody great being Welsh

Is there no irony there? A genuine sentiment?
I'm quite happy being English and am proud of certain things this country has created/made/developed but wouldn't think of proclaiming them in a discussion like this, there seems to be a lot of chest beating from some denominations in this thread. 🙄
To maybe help answer the OP why do you feel the need to list all the great achievements of your nation such as a comedy drama called 'Gavin & Stacey'

English people don't understand because they're all too busy looking down on their regional English neighbours. Scousers hate the Mancs. Geordies hate Mackems. Yorkshiremen hate everyone. Everyone hates Londoners.

You have to remember though that Scotland is:

The same population as Yorkshire,
Half the population of London,
The same population as the West Midlands.

That I'm proud to be from the North of England isn't any less valid than you being proud of being able to wear a colorful skirt to your wedding :-p

The question is maybe more why the English are so lacking in patriotism? Anyone here own a flag of St George?

I had a fairly large one stitched to my backpack when I went traveling. TBH no one knew what it was, most people though I was Danish.

I was trying to show that after about 20 years of having nothing Wales via shows like Gavin and Stacey was showing it self to be about more that the miners strike, closing steel plants and the other cliched views of us.

Yes its a genuine sentiment, if you don't/can't understand that then I can do nothing to help you.

How is it chest beating, just answering the question.

c when it comes to rugby but as I have pointed out on the rugby thread it is only against the english but then everyone wants to beat the english you have to ask yourselves why.

Maybe you should be the one asking yourself why?

Half the population of London

I think you better do that calculation again!

Oooh, interesting topic!

First of all, Why is [i]anyone[/i] patriotic? It's a bit of a daft concept, but I think it falls somewhere between tribalism* and love**. Neither is strictly rational so I think trying to explain it by way of listing historical achievements or lack of historical wrongdoing is just pointless.

I consider myself patriotic, and I know it's patriotism because when I lived in Vancouver I was constantly trying to convince myself why the Scottish hills/weather/beer/people were [i]better[/i] despite ample and constant evidence to the contrary. Eventually I moved back and am extremely happy I did so, if only for the fact that I'm in Scotland, even if the hills are smaller, the beer weaker and the weather worse (I'm not commenting on the people! 😀 ).

I don't really believe the English are less patriotic than anyone else though.

*in the nicest possible sense, i.e. we were all monkeys once, it seems natural to want to belong to some sort of tribe even today, see also football supporters, 29ers vs. 26ers etc etc 8)

** as in, you love your partner and can pick out many wonderful reasons why you do, but then, why them? why not someone else with equally good qualities?

Maybe you should be the one asking yourself why?

To maybe help answer the OP why do you feel the need to list all the great achievements of your nation such as a comedy drama called 'Gavin & Stacey'

Goes back to the point made earlier about imagined communities and the way in which cultural produce embodies national identity. Lots of English examples too. Pigface is right – the bands, TV shows and cultural change in the 90s onwards signified a big cultural change in Wales. England had something similar with Cool Britannia.

think you better do that calculation again!

Depends on your definition doesn't it? Works for the "larger urban area"!