You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Most people die within 30 miles of where they were born. Given that most conversations are based on the world is turning to shit and moaning about family members, why don't more people just up and move to somewhere better?
All my family have including me.
All my family have including me.
Did you move in the same direction, or opposite directions?
If you're an emigrant, you probably aren't the target market for this thread.
RAF Brat. I think moving was ingrained in me early on. I think on last count I've lived in 20+ different houses across 2 continents and 6 countries. Apart from about 12 months or so, I've never lived within 30 miles of where I was born.
I'm not against it, for quite a while MrsIHN and I had serious and not serious ideas about moving to France, but then something happened that would make that a lot harder. Can you guess what that might be?
However, after living away for 20+ years, I did recently move back to about 10 miles from where I was born, and five miles from where I grew up. Some places feel like the place you live, but some places feel like home.
Did you move in the same direction, or opposite directions?
More like an explosion in different directions. 🙂
I probably earn more here (UK) than living in the nice places I woud rather live, but unfortunatley haven't earnt enough to move abroad and not have to work or get by with not earning very much.
Post covid it might be easier to work remotley from places, but unfortunatley that milkshake covered ****staff manged to get too many people to vote for brexit.....
and for all its faults, and there are lots(!), the UK isn't actually a bad place to live.
RAF brat here, born abroad though we settled down when I was 7 to give me stable schooling.
My parents always said they'd support me of I wanted to emigrate, but only moved within England so far, for better jobs or affordable housing.
Most people die within 30 miles of where they were born
"The Road To Somewhere" by David Goodhart is an interesting read. Written around the time of the Brexit referendum and Trump's first presidency, he suggests that you can (and obviously this is a generalisation) look at people who are 'Somewheres' and those who are 'Anywheres'. The Somewheres see where they are from as central to their identity, whereas the Anywheres are defined more by who they are and what they have achieved. Anywheres tend to be better educated (because one of the best ways to become an Anywhere is to go to university away from your hometown), and to have had much broader life experiences. It's the Somewheres who gave us Brexit and Trump.
Most people die within 30 miles of where they were born.
Source?
FWIW - born in Indian Himalaya, lived in 17 houses in 49 years of life across England & Scotland, with a four month stay in mid-Wales on top.
My immediate family live in England, India and NZ. Wider family in Aus (Melbourne & Tasmania), Guernsey, England, Wales and Sweden.
I would happily consider emigrating, but mrs_oab and family are close and the opportunity has never arisen really. Now for various health reasons and the NHS we cannot - even for a short period of time.
So I find it odd folk don't emigrate or move around some more.
However, after living away for 20+ years, I did recently move back to about 10 miles from where I was born, and five miles from where I grew up. Some places feel like the place you live, but some places feel like home.
Something like that.
I've moved all over but can see myself dying in the Lake district as long as this sort of thing doesn't do unchecked.
that and owing a couple of tourist pubs/b&bs can turn a tidy profit.
in short living in the lakes is hardly living on the moon.
RAF Brat. I think moving was ingrained in me early on. I think on last count I’ve lived in 20+ different houses across 2 continents and 6 countries. Apart from about 12 months or so, I’ve never lived within 30 miles of where I was born.
Out of five siblings I'm the only who's stuck close to where we essentially grew up, I haven't been to one of my sister's houses since Jan 2000 & the other sister I only visited the first time in 20yrs earlier this year, they are both very settled where they are now having left this country getting on for 35 & 40yrs ago but they've had some tough times and had some times when they wish they'd stayed in UK.
I've known a friend who sailed round the world for a few years with husband & young family, then got it all set up (house & job) to live in NZ, came back to UK for Xmas then just refused to get on the plane to fly back to NZ and settled back in UK instead.
Its not an easy choice to emigrate for sure.
Another RAF brat here. Born abroad. Don’t live anywhere near anywhere I lived as a child. Haven’t moved abroad because all my attempts to learn other languages have failed miserably, and all English speaking countries have such tight immigration systems we can’t move and work there now given our ages. Can’t really afford to pay to retire abroad, ever. Offspring much better at languages, but other people are against emigration and voted to make it very hard to do so with the limited means most young people have.
Left the UK over half a lifetime ago and have no desire to return, putting me firmly in the emigrant category rather than the expat one, which in southern France is a cause for lively debate with my dear compatriots. C'est une véritable boîte a vers.
I've got so much sympathy for the young who no longer have the opportunity to freely move around the EU as I did in my 20's with minimal fuss.
but can see myself dying in the Lake district
As a grumpy old bloke who lives in a cottage, or whilst waterskiing ?
The Somewheres see where they are from as central to their identity, whereas the Anywheres are defined more by who they are and what they have achieved. Anywheres tend to be better educated (because one of the best ways to become an Anywhere is to go to university away from your hometown), and to have had much broader life experiences.
Initially my reaction was to say I'm a nowhere, I'm not really one or the other and never felt like I've achieved as much as i hoped i could.
but perhaps I lean more toward an anywhere than a somewhere. I've lived within 20 miles of where I was born with the exception of university where I chose the opposite end of the England to study. No nationalistic tendencies. Kind of feel indifferent to it, I could have been born anywhere in the world... as anything! Ah haha!
I don't see myself emigrating unless we have a massive lottery win and I never have to work again. mono lingual and way below average income for my age (40s).
Would love to live somewhere in the UK with big hills or mountains where you can really get out into the middle of nowhere unlike the SE.
I'm not against it.....
When I was 18 I knew I didn't want to stay where I grew up. Never felt like it was somewhere I wanted to be when growing. Never had the inclusion I wanted to be there in my old age.
I grew up in Thurrock so I don't think I need extrapolate on the reasons why.
why don’t more people just up and move to somewhere better?
Norman Tebit's been reincarnated then.
It is actually quite financially difficult to just up sticks and move somewhere else. I think it is a bit of logical fallacy to just pretend people can easily move around, and it has got a fair bit harder in my lifetime.
I have done it a couple of times in my life, but if I lost my job now I don't think just moving to somewhere better would be a feasible option, I just don't think I could scrape the money together to make it happen even if I was motivated to do so.
A lot of people are trapped in their lives and jobs, having the financial autonomy to make drastic changes is a luxury most people don't have, we just struggle along trying to make small improvements when the opportunities present themselves and trying to do the best for our families.
It is actually quite financially difficult to just up sticks and move somewhere else. I think it is a bit of logical fallacy to just pretend people can easily move around,
Nah.....
I left the UK and went to Germany with around 2k Sterling in my bank account. Spent two months trying to learn the language and then got a job with a local carpentry company. Majority of my vocab came either from the building site or the local bike shop. Balken, Kette, Schraubenzieher, Gabel, Zollstock, Federung.....
It ain't money holding people back, but fear of the unknown.
It ain’t money holding people back, but fear of the unknown.
…or people are happy where they are and don’t have the desire to move.
…or people like to have their family and friends around them.
…or people have older relatives to look after.
It is actually quite financially difficult to just up sticks and move somewhere else.
Like Alpin, i had about 1000 quid cash reserves and an unsold house when i left the UK. Not a massive amount of money, and i could probably have moved for a lot less than i eventually did (about another 1000 all told).
Didn't even have a job. (Still can't speak the language!)
I'm about 1200km from where i was born and 1000km from where i was brought up. And despite everything (Divorce, ill health, money issues) i'm glad i did it.
TBH, all three could have seen me dead or on the streets in the UK.
What I quoted was referring to money. I'm saying money itself isn't an issue....
Obviously there are other hurdles, but MSP wasn't referring to them.
BTW, MSP is already in the Vaterland.
dependents. thats why i stay
if it was just me I would have gone long ago
I left the UK and went to Germany with around 2k Sterling in my bank account
Which is £2.5k more than a lot of folk in the UK these days.
^^ you think that's an extravagant amount of money?
How far does 2k get you?
In my case three months.
I spent 1200€ on a language course that included accommodation. After the course I lived in a campsite for four weeks.....
*after your edit.... Yeah. This was 2008 so probably a bit less in today's money, but on this forum where people are spunking several K on an ego massage it's a pissy amount of cash.
I guess it depends on where you're coming from and what your expectations are.
**edit edit.... I guess it helped that back in 2008 it was still possible to up sticks from the UK and move to anywhere within the EU without any trouble..... But again, I think MSP jumped from the island before the big B word hit the fan.
My sisters and I all moved away from "home", they've both moved back nearer to where we grew up. I have obviously reached escape velocity,my home is where I live now.
We'd already worked in France, Germany and Spain but were teaching in the UK and flat broke. Then walked out of our jobs. I started job hunting anywhere and everywhere and found not one but two jobs in Nancy. The boss was prepared to pay our transport out which solved the flat broke bit.
The jobs only lasted a few months because the business was sold but we'd made enough to pay rent on some premises in Pau and start a business. that was 32 years ago, still here.
As Ocrider notes, the opportnities we had have been voted away and I feel sorry for young Brits. Having a whole continent to go at made job hunting a whole lot easier and being out of work less of a worry. There was always something to do somewhere whether it was picking grapes, cleaning mobile homes, waxing skis, serving in a bar, making sandwiches, answering the phone... .
Much easier to learn a language when you’re immersed in it than from your living room in Blighty.
It takes a certain personality. My aunt was so fed up with the NHS she left England in the 80s with a failed French o-level and has worked in nursing in France ever since. But she's remarkably confident with a tough skin.
Nobody on either side of my family has stayed put...but then grandmothers were both post war immigrants.
As a kid I was jealous of people with ties to places, but as I've got older I realised it can be a bind.
I found it easy to emmigrate in my mid 20s but I had no ties. And I had a woman waiting at the airport for me.
why don’t more people just up and move to somewhere better?
Within the regions of the UK, many young people do, to more prosperous and urban area.
However IME older people in rural areas sometimes have a disappointed view of this emigration. The village's all quiet, shop and post office closed, chapel boarded up, school at risk of closure... well maybe it's something to do with general societal change and over two thirds of the houses being retired people or holiday homes, rather than the young people taking the "wrong" life decisions.
I grew up in Lincolnshire.
I've lived three years in Fife and am nearing ten in the Borders. I still say 'back home' when referring to Lincolnshire
I am not against as long as they are legit or not criminals or not cause trouble.
I came here to see the "world" and for economy reason. I remember as a teen I wanted to go as far as possible from my home country and UK became the natural choice because I can understand the language. For some reasons, I don't prefer other English speaking nations. I definitely don't want to set foot in USA put it this way coz nothing interest me there.
I left the UK and went to Germany with around 2k Sterling in my bank account. Spent two months trying to learn the language and then got a job with a local carpentry company. Majority of my vocab came either from the building site or the local bike shop. Balken, Kette, Schraubenzieher, Gabel, Zollstock, Federung…..
It ain’t money holding people back, but fear of the unknown.
Now rerun the scenario with 6months since you were made redundant and two kids in tow and a partner on unpaid maternity leave. And that 2k has been used for the last 6months keeping everyone fed.
Pre-brexit of course.
Well yeah.... Obviously.
Now rerun the scenario with 6months since you were made redundant and two kids in tow and a partner on unpaid maternity leave. And that 2k has been used for the last 6months keeping everyone fed.
Yeah.... With kids in tow it would be a different scenario.
Now yes.... Few years ago.... Nope!
Although for anyone seriously considering leaving the UK, Germany has a long list of jobs it needs to fill and their citizenship rules have changed. Something silly like three years residency and you can apply for citizenship with basic B1 level language skills.
why don’t more people just up and move to somewhere better?
I did, it was just 20 miles away though. Brought up in rough overcrowded town, now live in quiet and lovely village.
I like where I live and have reached the vast distance of four miles from my place of birth. My family in general has moved no more than 10 miles in the last few hundred years! The wife and I have been fantasising about moving to Scotland for a few years now ( I know it’s not quite the same as leaving this island) I feel it’s a one way ticket, that scares me. My wife I imagine, the moment grandchildren come along will not move. I guess we will daydream a little longer.
Given that most conversations are based on the world is turning to shit and moaning about family members, why don’t more people just up and move to somewhere better?
if it’s the world turning to shit presumably I need a spacecraft to escape the planet, which as im not called Besos, Branson or Musk seem to be a bit of a barrier!
more seriously, I’m slightly over the 30 miles from birth but wife is well under so on average we probably conform to your rule. I did live several hundred miles away in a different country within the U.K. and then made a decision to return so perhaps I’ve given it more thought than some. We also discuss from time to time retirement plans that might involve moving several hours away.
why did I move back?
- one of us had to move job if we were both going to be in the same place. I couldn’t really see myself in that place really long term, so it seemed wrong for me to drag (future)Mrs from a job she liked and was doing well in to probably just a “anything to pay the bills” position. That must surely be a common factor for many considering emmigration or even big internal moves - great “you’ve” got your dream job in an amazing location but the other half has to compromise.
- I could see that setting there involved house purchase, future schooling etc. I was more familiar with the systems for those that I grew up with - it doesn’t mean “my” systems were better but certainly more comfortable.
Why have we stayed here now?
- a very good local friend network
- family support for childcare (not needed now but was for over a decade)
- Brexit has limited the range of countries we can just move to on a whim. Perhaps not really an issue for us - but certainly a consideration for my offspring as they start to think where in the world they want to go.
- in the past career could have led me to the USA. Thank god it didn’t!
what about in retirement?
- we both have parents who are ageing; ultimately one day that will resolve itself and we might go somewhere else but as the age it’s clear that one or other is likely to need us more. I think the premise of your question that we “all” have serious issues with our families is wrong.
- as we age proximity to facilities becomes more important; that won’t necessarily stop a move but it might limit the range of choices.
My job is to wander around the world taking photographs, but I’ve never lived more than 10 miles from where I was born. I do like living in the woods, but if I could I would like to try living in a mega city like London, Seoul, Tokyo or New York.
I live about six miles from where I was born but and both areas are in London so the distance is a bit more meh - London is an enormous city. My parents were both immigrants and moved around London before settling in the same house for fifty years.
Mrs Kilo was born over 50 miles from our home now and brought up even further away - she wanted to leave her home town and move to London as soon as she finished school, which she did. Spending her life in a dead end town, with a very insular attitude bitd, wasn’t her idea of fun. She has never mentioned any desire to move back there (sorry Portland residents).
From my family both my brothers emigrated, one when offered a post in the USA and the other ended up specialising as a Brazilian music dj so ended up living there for a long time and kind of drifted from the UK to Portugal . My ideal would also be to leave England when I finish work in a few years, to Ireland. Even my my mother has emigrated now at 86. However all my nephews and nieces are quite keen to try living in the UK at some stage so maybe our family will keep flitting in and out of it, if only to annoy the anti immigrant rump 😉
As I lay in bed this morning, June 5th, hearing the wind and rain battering the windows, the thought of that 6 figure tax free 3 year assignment in Dubai doesn't sound too bad
Bob, 7 months of the year, you'll be living under an AC unit missing the ability to go outside, even in the rain!
Which is £2.5k more than a lot of folk in the UK these days.
TBH, when i started planning to leave the country i only got in the black in my bank account on payday and for three or four days after that. Also, credit cards (several grand), car finance and personal bank loans (several grand). Some of them i cleared from the house sale, most i cleared by (metaphorically) living on beans on toast. I was not living particularly extravagantly in the first place.
Now rerun the scenario with 6months since you were made redundant and two kids in tow and a partner on unpaid maternity leave. And that 2k has been used for the last 6months keeping everyone fed.
Only people who i know with kids (or without for that matter) who've managed to emigrate effectively and without any hardship have managed to do it either because one of the adults is moving home after emigrating for studies or as a single/younger person, or the company has paid a *lot* of their expenses.
The weather in Dubai is great, absolutely perfect...for 4 or 5 months of the year. If you're single and prepared to live modestly, you can save a ton of money. If you have a family - forget it, you'll get sucked in.
i had about 1000 quid cash reserves and an unsold house when i left
That's a pretty big "and"!
There's a bit of a smug "I'm not like the dickheads in my humdrum home town, I'm a proper immigrant (because I moved from Morpeth to Kirkcaldy)" undertone to this thread...
Alpin is right though: if you're really determined to move and will work legally or legally at anything that comes along, then money isn't necessarily everything. But it can be hard work and involve a lot of sacrifices emotionally.
Edit to add: this might belong on the immigration thread but there is a picture painted of "yeah well when they come to this country for a better standard of living they've got it made". But that ignores the fact that it can be very frustrating to be away from your family and friends (esp when you have kids), away from support networks, struggling with a foreign language and weird food, in grim weather...as evidenced by the fact that after Brexit a whole .bunch of Eastern Europeans decided to go home even though they could have stayed.
, when i started planning to leave the country i only got in the black in my bank account on payday and for three or four days after that. Also, credit cards (several grand), car finance and personal bank loans (several grand). Some of them i cleared from the house sale, most i cleared by (metaphorically) living on beans on toast
You had a house.
You had access to credit.
Again, that's really significantly more than many people have in the UK.
I'm not trying to denigrate your efforts and success, it's clearly hard earned. But it's not an opportunity many have.
I’m not trying to denigrate your efforts and success, it’s clearly hard earned. But it’s not an opportunity many have.
emigrating in modern times is very different to emigrating 100 years ago. In the context of moving from the UK as a UK citizen you’d likely be one of the better off in your native country.
Excuse the term, but it is a lifestyle option rather than an economic necessity.
edit: and being able to choose your lifestyle is a huge privilege.
Depends how long your memory is. And which part of the UK you're talking about. I know lots of people who emigrated to nearby countries out of economic necessity, when moving to other areas of the UK was a totally unaffordable alternative. Things have changed though... moving, broke, to a country with the hope that your job opportunities are better isn't going to be an option if things get worse here for people in some areas of the UK.
I was born in Suffolk and, whilst it is a nice place, moved out when I could, starting with university and then for work. I ended up living near Cambridge for a long while than taking the decision to sell up, sell off and move to Sweden.
I will never move back. Sweden has problems, but is generally a better place. Brexit tried to f me over, but it failed and, now that I have citizenship here, I don't need to leave. I don't want to leave. I like my small house in the country. I like my area.
In the context of moving from the UK as a UK citizen you’d likely be one of the better off in your native country.
Well true, yes, if you were moving from being the "average" UK resident to the "average" resident of the destination. But not many people did that for the reasons you state. They moved because there was free or cheap stolen land in Canada or Argentina or Zimbabwe, because there was a massive labour shortage in Australia or Saudi, because they could be administrators on a better screw than the locals in India, because they were married or politically inspired or religious zealots or bonkers...
emigrating in modern times is very different to emigrating 100 years ago. In the context of moving from the UK as a UK citizen you’d likely be one of the better off in your native country.
This is very true.
One of my family members escaped the pain of living with my grandfather in the 1960's. He left having secretly saved just enough for an air fair and headed out on the hope of he could survive a week on the streets of Sydney and find work. Which he succeeded in, and married the air hostess from the flight out. 😎
I saw brother emigrate in 2005, they needed modest savings, skills and more to get into NZ.
I've got a son who has looked at emigrating long term, beyond a gap year type visa, and he needs really significant savings or niche skills or both. And Brexit has been a huge whammy in this respect.
Only people who i know with kids (or without for that matter) who’ve managed to emigrate effectively and without any hardship have managed to do it either because one of the adults is moving home after emigrating for studies or as a single/younger person, or the company has paid a *lot* of their expense
My younger brother moved with wife and kid to Brazil then on to Portugal. No company picking up the tabs. Worked with a guy who just upped and moved family to Spain. So it can be done.
emigrating in modern times is very different to emigrating 100 years ago.
I’d say it’s vastly different to emigrating fifty years ago let alone 100 the main difference now being how easy it is to come back. In my parents youth people would emigrate and you’d never see them again nowadays people in similar circumstances (young Irish) can go for a few years, get citizenship and still come back east enough. This is one of the reasons UK isn’t as popular as it once was , international air travel has impacted emigration.
Depends how long your memory is. And which part of the UK you’re talking about. I know lots of people who emigrated to nearby countries out of economic necessity, when moving to other areas of the UK was a totally unaffordable alternative. Things have changed though… moving, broke, to a country with the hope that your job opportunities are better isn’t going to be an option if things get worse here for people in some areas of the UK.
Well true, yes, if you were moving from being the “average” UK resident to the “average” resident of the destination. But not many people did that for the reasons you state.
im talking in the context of now. if you are not a refugee you need to be able to offer the new country something that they want. The days of shipping orphans to Canada or being able to buy residency and ticket to Australia for £10 are long gone. The ability to pop across the channel to get a job, as we are all aware, is also gone.
what I was trying to do was answer the question “why are people against emigration?” My answer was, because it is not as simple as buying a ticket to a foreign country and getting a job when you arrive.
As for the uncomfortable subject of stolen land, the people of Britain had already had their land stolen from them by the same sorts of people. I’m not trying to justify anything by that statement.
I’ve got a son who has looked at emigrating long term, beyond a gap year type visa, and he needs really significant savings or niche skills or both.
there are ways to get into Canada that can get around these needs. There was also a scheme running where you could convert your gap year visa into something more long term.
This may help:
edit: the program has been paused for 2024.
im talking in the context of now.
Ahh, sorry, I misunderstood what you said.
im talking in the context of now.
I agree with all that then.
👍
I don't know anyone who is. I've lived and worked in America, Norway, Australia, New Zealand,Spain and all over the UK. Most of my friends have lived and worked overseas or moved in the UK. Back a few miles from where I was born and quite happy. When I've had enough I'll head back to Europe.
Some people just like where they are born
I live around 10 miles from where i was born, all my family are here, we see each other all the time and enjoy spending time together, we grew up with all our aunties and uncles around and now we are doing the same with our kids
We are lucky that we live on the south coast near the Hampshire and West Sussex border
Nice coastal areas, the Southdown's is a 10-15 min drive away, in 20 mins on the bike i can be out in the countryside, great for MTB and the road bike
There are 3 cities within a 30 min drive for anything that you can only get in cities, we can be in London in an 1hr 30 mins for seeing shows, museums and everything else London has to offer
Really cant see me ever wanting to live anywhere else, had the chance to move abroad for work and declined, as much as i enjoyed working abroad for a month at a time there's no way id want live outside the UK
I'm 373miles from place of birth and unlikely to ever return, nor feel the need to do so.
Some people just like where they are born
I no longer have a right to live and work where I was born, and nor do my offspring, the fact I like it there is irrelevant... but hey...
One of my friends has moved his family there recently, coincidentally, needed a company to sponsor him... so not impossible...but as LAT says, it's not a buy a ticket and go there to find work situation.
That’s a pretty big “and”!
You had a house.
Unsold, no committed buyer at the time i moved, mortgage of (more than) half my monthly salary to pay, no job to go to in foreign country. Gas, electric, council tax, insurance. All needed paying. A short delay in selling would have been disastrous. I could, at a push, have covered a couple of months with the money i had. Luckily i got a job within a few days.
You had access to credit.
Again, that’s really significantly more than many people have in the UK.
Access to credit is pushing it, salary and COL where i was, was high enough that i needed credit/overdraft to keep eating from one month to the next. My "lifestyle", or at least clearing OD and CC, was dependant on overtime. It was a good job, and relatively well paid, but COL where i was increased sharply in the 2-3 years before i left.
I’m not trying to denigrate your efforts and success, it’s clearly hard earned. But it’s not an opportunity many have.
Absolutely, i'd have been better off moving from rented accom (as it was still relatively cheap back then), but lots wouldn't been able to get CC or an overdraft, or afford a car reliable enough to drive a couple of thousand km. I was lucky that the house sold (quite literally) as i was arriving in Sweden. The situation now in the UK, 20 years later, is far far worse than it was when i left. Even if you ignore the changes due to brexit (Right to work etc).
I'm happy to report that COL here is (still) significantly lower than in the UK. Mainly driven by cheap housing stock.