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Slack hardtails that are comfylier for longer rides than aggressive xc bikes, and a bit more confidence inspiring for aiming downhill should be a recipe for onboarding new riders on a lower budget. I'm surprised theres so little coverage of these bikes. I appreciate the love for sexy full sussers but good hardtails are the true onboarding point, and new starters aren't fast or aggressive so bikes that eat steeps and sit comfier should be a golden goose to promote. I dont understand the lack of hype
Slept on?
Whilst I agree kind of, I guess you have to look at who reads reviews - i.e. who is the target market for reviews not who is the target market for bikes. It's not all mountain bikers - just some mountain bikers. Maybe not me - I'm past all that. And maybe not total newbies. It's probably the totally obsessed inbetweeners a year or 3 in.......the kind of person now up for spending an unreasonable amount of money on a bike.
Reading reviews and allowing yourself to think that the words you are reading reflect the spending power or the obsession level of the complete market might be giving reviews too much credit.
I guess. I cant be in the head of a potential mtb buyer, but for my imagined first time mtb consumer, a hardtail thats comfier and aimed to descend well, and take larger tires. Seems like a perfect starting point, you could make it skinnier and go faster, or bulk it up and aim down hills with more gusto.
An xc hardtail which is the frequent first (misguided) purchase doesn't give you the range or opportunity to really feel things out.
And the platform to customize and tailor a bike establishes the secondary market of aftermarket kit.
Its a beautiful launch pad for the hobby in my eyes, synicaly from a marketing sales pipeline
For an established mtber they're probably redundant unless you wanted a fast hardtail for winter compared to a slacker trail bike. Or of your an xc rat and want something quicker and looser but not so slack or daft you loose the finesse your regular bike demands. For an established mtber they're weird to justify, but for buying a first bike they entertain a middling sweet spot of try this/try that. And then when it becomes a winter beater bike you could make it a very different machine for the fun of it.
They're slack hardtails with 130 forks that can take a 2.5" tyre. They're the niche between xc and trail bikes, maybe they should be called trail hardtails. In my head they're the answer to 'i wanna ride off-road cause i dont fancy a skinny bike, but i don't know if i wanna wear lycra and race around the woods at speed or try barreling through the rough stuff the keen guys seem to do, but i don't wanna spend 2+ grand on a full susser cause my wife will kill me'
I think you're completely misrepresenting the market. Most folk buying their first mountainbike want something to pootle along canals, gravel roads and maybe the occasional woodland path. Zillions of bikes suitable for this are sold every year. If some of those folk then get a bit more "gnar" then they'll often see that other folk are riding full suspension and that's what they'll want too. Your downcountry hardtail is squeezed between these two and is often bought by more established MTBers as an option to their FS, often, as you say, for worse conditions.
Ah, a bit like my hooligan hardtail! 6” Nixons with 2.3” tyres. Gotcha.
Downcountry hardtails? Is this some sort of new sub niche for the cognoscenti? Like mullets?
Country and Mullets go together like being left by your wife and having to shoot your dog.
I broke three hardtail frames in a year and a half. Cracked head tube from repeatedly riding steps, dent in down tube where a car door was opened on me, dent in down tube from a crash.
I bought the most hardcore hardtail I could find- a 2001 cove stiffee.
It had a super slack 69 head angle (for the time) and the biggest tyres I could find 2.3. The top tube was short enough I wore knee pads partially to stop hitting my knees on the bars.
I rode it loads over the next 17 years memorably including a date on the fort William world cup track.
I think pretty much any shop bought hardtail wold be "better" down hill.
If people are keen they can ride anything anywhere. The rough stuff riders in the UK were probably riding the same natural stuff I'm riding now on 1960's touring bikes.
https://bikepacking.com/bikes/stooge-dirt-tracker-review/
Now I'm on an on one hello Dave. 62 head angle, 160mm fork and 2.6 29' tyres. It's a lot better bike. I still ride the same places. It's still super fun. However, I've taken my full suss every other time I've been to fort William and I've never done an uplift with a hardtail
Oh, sorry to hear about your falls in Fort William. Hardtails can be tough on bumpy trails.
They’re slack hardtails with 130 forks that can take a 2.5″ tyre.
The term you’re looking for is “hardcore hardtail”.
They are a niche, as most people who upgrade from an entry level hardtail are likely to go to full suspension, just because they’re more confidence inspiring and comfortable.
I think the reasons that they’re not reviewed so often is because there aren’t so many of them, and companies are more eager to promote their higher end, more profitable models.
Slept on
Get in the sea.
Back to the question though, are they being overlooked? Do they exist in large numbers? I mean, I get your point that for every hardtail review there's 3 different FS bikes reviewed, but from going out on the trails I'd guessed that was because those are the proportions being sold. Good hardtails don't sell so much these days - everyone wants a full-susser, preferably with an e-motor; and my guess is the margins are much better for the manufacturers, so they're keen to sell them too.
A recipe for onboarding new riders on a lower budget
My imagined first time mtb consumer
Good hardtails are the true onboarding point,
The platform to customize and tailor a bike establishes the secondary market of aftermarket kit.
For buying a first bike they entertain a middling sweet spot
So slept on by reviews
It's almost poetry. Have you considered an alternative career as some sort of marketing copywriter?
The Pink Bike 'Value Group test' contained 3 bikes that are exactly what you describe.
I think you don't see so many reviews for these is simply that for most beginners, a FS is probably thier best bet if they're wanting to do more than pootle down the canal and back.
My imagined first time mtb consumer
Good hardtails are the true onboarding point,
Now this is something I'd agree with - like F1 or Touring Car drivers starting in go karts. Learning about things like picking lines, anticipation, body positioning and feeling the bike move about underneath you - then you move onto bigger and more sophisticated bikes once you've got those skills.
Whereas many people get into MTBing with the most 'desirable' bike they can get, which is often a FS that just absorbs everything and allows them to go faster and faster regardless of skill
I would guess that the majority of serious mtbers have a hardtail. I have always kept a full susser and a long(er) travel hardtail, even when I also had a dh bike and a singlespeed.
Beginners are often frightened by the cost of mtbs, so starting with a decently specced do it all (mostly) hardtail makes some kind of sense. They will pretty soon decide they want a ful susser, but hopefully be able to keep the hardtail as well.
I wonder if my XC bike is a downcountry hardtail. I hope so...
It's a light 29er with fast-ish tires and 75mm slammed stem, but a 120mm fork and a decently tall head-tube so it doesn't feel slammed, just looks it.
'hardcore hardtails' have been around for a long time, and well catered for by the likes of Cotic, Stanton, On One etc, the British pioneered the longer travel, less XC hardtail 20 odd years ago, and guess what - they're still good. Sure, head angles have got slacker, seat angles steeper, wheels bigger, and boost blah blah... Their have always been shorter travel full sus bikes that aren't XC race machines too.
Labels have evolved and to my mind 'downcountry' bikes are just what 99% of the population expect a mountain bike to be - not 150mm+ travel, not 2.6"+ tyres, and not a 22lb carbon race bike. Just, a, mountain bike that can do a bit of everything, which is what I think most people probably still need - newbie or not.
Good hardtails are the true onboarding point
Not sure this is true anymore... it once was... and many of us may think it should still be.. but things have moved on.
"Good hardtails" are now more often bought by people moving off older hardtails, or from a full sus, or as an additional bike.
@core I agree. As “trail” bikes now go up to 150/160mm travel, they’re encroaching on the enduro category and are super-capable, leaving space beneath them for people who want something a little more sprightly up hills, more fun on rolling terrain, and still capable on the descents - a classic trail bike.
To be honest, even my old Jeffsy (140/140) was slightly over biked for most UK sanctioned trails, it was only in bike parks and off- piste that it started to feel near the limit.
If you’re just going to do trail centres, which is what a lot of people do these days, a ~120mm full sus is just about perfect IMO.
“Good hardtails” are now more often bought by people moving off older hardtails, or from a full sus, or as an additional bike.
Or only bike.
Or only bike.
Absolutely. But not "first mountain bike". This could change though... if all those riders that have moved from road bike to gravel bikes make the obvious next step... a hardtail with the angles for both exploring and, er, shredding.
@core I agree. As “trail” bikes now go up to 150/160mm travel, they’re encroaching on the enduro category and are super-capable, leaving space beneath them for people who want something a little more sprightly up hills, more fun on rolling terrain, and still capable on the descents – a classic trail bike.
To be honest, even my old Jeffsy (140/140) was slightly over biked for most UK sanctioned trails, it was only in bike parks and off- piste that it started to feel near the limit.
Actually a pretty good explanation of why gravel's become so popular, tbh
Any actual stats to back any of these claims up or are you all just plucking them out of thin air willy nilly?
Aren't gravel bikes for people who don't have the skills for MTB? 😉
Anyway, my two pence, if it's even worth that, full suspension MTBs are beyond my budget. Oh that doesn't matter does it. I don't bother myself reading reviews of things I have no intention of buying.
My best MTB is over 5 7 years old, and it's a hard tail, might it be a downcountry hardtail?
Bird Zero TR (quite long I think) , 27.5", 30mm rims, 2.4" front, 2.35" rear, bash guard & chain retainer, 130mm Rockshox Yari forks.
Hard tails now seems almost exclusively for "onboarding" kids up to 20" wheels. From then on there exists a vast choice of lower than average price point full suspension bikes that meet the aspirations of adults new to the sport. Also exists a comparatively larger inventory of used full suspension bikes being sold by progressing riders with upgradeitis or wannahaveititis.
Absolutely my 100mm giant xtc, 120mm Blizzard, talas forked Soul and 140mm Solaris were just as much fun (in a different way) than any of my full sus bikes, but the appeal of backache is much less to new riders.
That's the real reason I haven't gone back to a hardtail for actual MTB'ing - getting beaten up less. Full sus is faster and more comfortable everywhere for me.
Bird Zero TR (quite long I think) , 27.5″, 30mm rims, 2.4″ front, 2.35″ rear, bash guard & chain retainer, 130mm Rockshox Yari forks.
Sorted! All the fun, none of the hassle. Enjoy.
Are we sure the OP isn’t ChatGPT with a Singletrack login? Does anyone who’s not in HR use the phrase ‘onboarding’ in general conversation? It’s up there with ‘going forward’ as terminology that sets my teeth on edge.
It would be interesting to see some figures, but I get the impression I that a general purpose hardtail is still the primary entry point to mountain biking for most people, based on what I see around somewhere like Comrie Croft. In part, this is because the ‘entry point’ is what they ride as kids; even the parents who’ve spent more lavishly on bikes for their kids, still tend to have them riding around on Islabikes, Frogs, Hoys and the like, with the older kids on better bikes still tending to be on hard tails at the slacker end of the spectrum; Whytes and so on. I suspect there’s a fair few adults running full suss bikes that could probably do what they want to on a LLS hardtail with chunky tyres - at the anecdotal level, I built up a cheap Titus El Chulo frame with 130mm forks and 2.6 tyres for Mrs DJ a couple of years back, and she rides that almost exclusively for the stuff she likes to do (blue/easy red trail centre stuff).
That’s the real reason I haven’t gone back to a hardtail for actual MTB’ing – getting beaten up less. Full sus is faster and more comfortable everywhere for me.
I've always had a HT of some description in the fold and pretty much knew what I was getting if I wanted to take one out.
Was blown away when I built the Ragley up though as to how different a modern HT can be. Absolutely fine for 20mile/3000ft without feeling beaten up and would say going further would be fine too. Climbing is as good as any bike I've had and it flies downhill - was keeping up with my mate on his Megatower the other weekend no problem
Slept on? Is that another Americanism? FFS I thought it was a typo.
It's a niche that either doesn't exist, or no one cares about and who wants to review hardtails any more when there are so many great bouncy bikes to get through.
And anyway, when mags existed like MBR and What Mountain Bike and that other one Mountain Biking For Da Kidz or whatever it was called, they always had a budget hardtails mass review, cos it filled up a whole bunch of pages with the usual "geometry makes it scary" "stem too long at 60mm" "cheap cranks are flexy" stupidity and meant nothing to anybody, especially not new riders in their first stages of onboarding 😆
I've always had a hardtail, cos they are light and simple and fun to ride. (That's my review of all of em)
Yeah as above, the market has been mainly eaten by much more capable, more comfortable, arguably as durable and arguably as efficient full sus trail bikes in the category above, and much more efficient gravel bikes below.
I still keep a hardtail for winter singlespeed duties and also for bikepacking / touring as I prefer the stability to the gravel bike when loaded up. I am riding it less these days though, for sure.
75mm slammed stem, but a 120mm fork and a decently tall head-tube so it doesn’t feel slammed, just looks it.
What's the point then?
GMBN did a test a few months back with an EWR rider on various bikes including an "entry level" hardtail, and she was pretty quick on the hardtail, even riding quite a tasty track at BPW.
Since I've had my Ragley I've hardly ridden my Stumpjumper Evo, as it's just more fun on easier stuff, easier to maintain, and works better for off road touring.
Just joining this thread to say that this type of bike is exactly what I was after as my first proper mtb.
I started by enjoying some off-road stuff on my old Claud Butler and wanted something more capable but still had to be cheapish, so got a Calibre Two.Two for around £400.
This was great for the price and got me properly into mountain biking and wanting a much better bike... on a budget and knew I would not be swapping bikes anytime soon so the upgrade requirements were: the best value for money possible, a do-it-all bike, the most capable possible as my abilities grew (knowing my abilities! so no enduro gnarpoons, but capable of riding a beginner enduro), etc etc. I researched it to death and read every review I could find 🤣
Anyway. TL;DR: a ~140mm travel hardtail seemed perfect, which is what I ended up with, and it is. 🥰
i bought a Planet X 29er Jackflash for an absurd amount of money (£90 delivered, new, iirc) and have really got into it.
Stiff and light (lighter than a steel bike, or full suss, at least), but while the slacker head angle looked a bit odd initially, its really noticeable when you point it downhill. Its a bit floppier on steep climbs, but nothing you don't get used to.
Its a yes from me.
Well, as you'd expect with my username*, I can't let this thread pass me by without comment ...
Not really sure what the OP is all about, and no idea what a downcountry HT is, but I do like my Hardtails!
My route into 'serious' MTB was via a Carrera Kraken -> Giant Terrago -> Boardman Team -> On One 45650b. The latter was brilliant, and a notable step up in what it was capable of over the Boardman that preceded it, and was my only MTB for a number of years.
Naively, I thought I'd never need a FS bike. I dabbled with a 26er Prophet for a bit, but didn't really gel, so got rid and built up a Ragley BigWig with 150mm Pikes and 2.5/2.6 rubber, thinking it would 'do everything'. And, it kind of does. But, 2 further FS bikes later, and a progression in what I want to ride (if not my skills!), I am no longer of the view that a HT is enough on its own.
However, I still have 2. The Ragley is SS, so quick local blasts in the woods and winter slop. The Ti HT is currently set up with light wheels and a carbon rigid fork as a gravel+ bike for endurance rather than enduro, and bikepacking trips, but with a forks/wheels swap, makes a decent spare trail bike.
*(no longer)hardtailonly
I think the nice ones e.g. Cotic Solaris are so expensive now you might as well just get a full sus in the sales.
Is "slept on" some young person's speak? Anyone know what it actually means?
Is a down country HT even a thing? They just come in XC, standard, Halfords and hooligan guises don’t they? I’m now wondering if mine is down country. Will it affect the trails at all? Will they stop coming alive? Do I need to lower my travel? Adjust the size of my tyres?
The main reason you don’t see more reviews is, I’m guessing here, that the great unwashed are looking for e-bikes and full sus bikes. I only own a HT for MTB and I have no idea what category it would fall in to tbh.
Just re-read the OP. Onboarding, seriously? Onboarding for riding a bike. No wonder you like bloody stupid category names. That’s me offboarding the thread!
I broke three hardtail frames in a year and a half. Cracked head tube from repeatedly riding steps, dent in down tube where a car door was opened on me, dent in down tube from a crash.
I bought the most hardcore hardtail I could find- a 2001 cove stiffee.
I still have my Cove Handjob frame and forks out in the shed, the hooligan hardtail in the photo is an On-One, a 567 proof-of-concept. Two were built, I bought one, after it was decided that a h/t overbuilt to be able to take a 7” travel dual-crown dh fork. The top and down tubes are the same size, with a super overbuilt headtube.
No paint on it, just a thin coat of matt lacquer to cover the bare metal, you can see how good the tig welding is, but the original On-One spec included mounts for cantilever brakes on the seat stays! Very neat brazing, though.
I’ve no idea what it would take to break the bastard thing, I just wouldn’t want to be riding it at the time, though! It weighs a ton, though.
To me, "Downcountry" either FS or HT has to be light. Light enough to race XC on (maybe not at the front, but competitive). It also needs to be short travel (race XC) and fairly slack geometry (the Down bit).
- Light
- Slack
- Short travel
So realistically for a HT we are looking at Aluminium or Carbon, not steel and RS SIDs or Fox 34 SC forks. Yet be around abouts 65/66deg ish HA.
No there arent many around. I think Transition made a carbon HT a while ago. Not sure on the geo for it. I think PB had a review on a downcountry HT a while back - have a search on the site.
Downcountry just means short travel but with geometry designed to make the downhills fun not a chore, doesn't it?
@kelvin, I think it was Levy on Pink Bike who coined it to originally describe full sus XC bikes that he and his friends had slightly overforked and upgraded the wheelset and brakes to make them a bit more capable on the descents?
I'm guessing a BFe is/ was the archetypal 'downcountry' hardtail, no? And Cove Handjob etc as above
I think it already existed before the "downcountry" term. It's the same thing as a trail bike.
More capable than XC on the downs, not nearly as much travel as an enduro bike. Basically a do-it-all.
Regarding the categorisation - historically the lower cost hardtails were just budget replicas of XC race bikes but without the things like xc race tyres, light weight and so on that made them good xc bikes. so you got a twitchy farm gate that was not very good off road unless you had a lot of skill and when you tried to use it as what we nerds would call a gravel bike, it wasnt very fast either.
Now however, the current voodoo bizzango - which could well be the "my first real MTB" for the masses that think Halfords is a good bike shop - has 66.5 degree head angle with a fork that works, reach round about on trend if a tad short. proper brakes, tyres that are decent, if more suited to summer trail centre than winter sloppy laps of Wharncliffe. There are similar offerings from the big brands, spesh trek etc.
I think it already existed before the “downcountry” term. It’s the same thing as a trail bike.
More capable than XC on the downs, not nearly as much travel as an enduro bike. Basically a do-it-all.
Its more what trail used to be before it got fat and ideas of grandeur. trail seems to be 150 (possibly coil) travel and doubledown tyres these days.
So we needed something else to fill the gap between trail and xc, despite how XC race bikes have changed.
I think the average new MTB rider just wants a bike to ride off-road, and maybe ride some natural trails. Not everyone is going to ride Bike Parks and shred like the magazines/ media would have you believe.
A gravel bike or basic Hardtail will suffice for them.
I'm a member of a reasonably large club that rides every week. From what i can see from our members, those with one bike only almost exclusively ride a full sus. Those that are a bit new tend to go for longer travel full sus as it aids confidence. Those of us who ride hardtails almost always have a full sus as well which we use for bigger days out. We ride the hardtails for the simplicity of week in week out maintenance over the winter and wet weather mudfest that is british mountainbiking.
We ride the hardtails for the simplicity of week in week out maintenance over the winter and wet weather mudfest that is british mountainbiking.
Personally, owning three hardtails (plus a 180mm FS ebike and a gravel bike) none of them were bought from a maintenance perspective. I just like riding HT's and have always had at least one alongside every FS I've owned
...those with one bike only almost exclusively ride a full sus. Those that are a bit new tend to go for longer travel full sus as it aids confidence. Those of us who ride hardtails almost always have a full sus as well which we use for bigger days out. We ride the hardtails for the simplicity of week in week out maintenance over the winter and wet weather mudfest that is british mountainbiking.
Agreed, same as my group. Adding one more observation - some of our group have ebikes for bigger big days out too.
Prior to Vitus disappearing I think that cheap bikes were having a bit of a renaissance. Deore, SLX and GX are all great. RS 35's are good, Z2's are great, dropper posts are cheap and the accountants have learnt to specify top end tyres even on cheap bikes.
I think the nice ones e.g. Cotic Solaris are so expensive now you might as well just get a full sus in the sales.
On-One scandal frames are (occasionally) dirt cheap, and the full bikes are good value. Whyte do a very similar model.
So realistically for a HT we are looking at Aluminium or Carbon, not steel and RS SIDs or Fox 34 SC forks. Yet be around abouts 65/66deg ish HA.
No there arent many around. I think Transition made a carbon HT a while ago. Not sure on the geo for it. I think PB had a review on a downcountry HT a while back – have a search on the site.
Voodoo Bizango Pro Carbon, BMC TwoStroke, Cannondale Scalpel HT.
The former is unobtanium for some reason and the latter are out and out race bikes, it's just the designers realized 66deg head angles were faster.
I’m guessing a BFe is/ was the archetypal ‘downcountry’ hardtail, no? And Cove Handjob etc as above
Disagree, in my mind a BFe is more at the lighter end of a hardcore hardtail., the Soul/Handjob would be trail or downcountry, and then you get to actual XC bikes.