You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
for an area, for UK PLC?
Just trying to get my head around this.
Sure they can remove housing stock, but they are also bringing money into the area in terms of tourist spend, and in some cases payments for the stay itself.
Should all holiday accommodation be bespoke builds? Should it only be owned by large companies?
Fire away!
Oh yeah and links to ****y instagrammers are expected.
I wasn't aware they are?
I know a lot of people are anti-globalisation, I guess if you're paying £100 for a Cottage in Wales for the night then AirBnBs cut on someone in the UK, renting from someone else in the UK ends up in the US, or wherever they want to pay tax.
I've had reasonably good experiences with AirB&B, but I must admit, some places we've stayed, they're happier with you booking direct if you can.
As someone who's runs an Airbnb...... They aren't..... 😁
Personally I'd rather have guests book though a medium like Airbnb than direct as it takes some of the hassle out.
As for the 2nd home issues the SW Airbnb community don't half complain about 2nd home owners, but specifically the empty ones. - we moved away from Devon in 2009 because of the low wages and lack of jobs that weren't tourism or hospitality. Having a 2nd home is fine imo, as long as it's being used by someone (anyone) for most of the year. Empty 2nd homes is where the problem is.
Who said they were?
Oh yeah and links to **** instagrammers are expected.
U wot mate?
It's the same as 2nd homes. Houses in small scenic towns get sold to landlords for airbnb, therefore locals cant afford them.
It also means the homes are empty for part of the year which means local facilities end up closing down and there is no sense of community for the residents who live there all the time.
Lastly airbnb customers can be antisocial as they are not staying for long and don't care if the neighbours don't like their parking/noise/rubbish etc.
Individually they aren't, but when too many people turn long term lets into short term AB&Bs it deprives towns / cities of places for residents to live, which starts changing the nature of the town / city. Hence some Cities limit short term lets.
Very similar to the holiday cottage / 2nd home problem, but just on steroids eg look at Cornwall, all the pubs / restaurants desparate for staff, but no where for any staff to live that's affordable. Likewise for the children of residents.
https://www.hotelmanagement.net/legal/global-cities-continue-to-tighten-grip-around-airbnb-sprawl
Take Bath as an example:
Several thousand flats in the town have become AirBnBs. Most are run as businesses. They effectively don't pay business rates, just council tax, so deprive the council of income from a business but put a burden on services similar to a business.
Local employers (mostly hospitality) can't get staff as there is nowhere for them to live that they can afford as a result.
They compete against local hotels but because they don't VAT (usually under the threshold), business rates, or hotel booking sites 15% commission, they are either more profitable or can undercut. Effectively they turn the residential housing stock of a town into one sprawling hotel.
In isolation they can be fine but the clusters that appear in anywhere with significant demand are deeply harmful to the village/town/city.
they don’t VAT (usually under the threshold), business rates, or hotel booking sites 15% commission,
The owners do pay vat on goods and services, but they also don't reclaim vat on these. They prob aren't taking over 85k, like many small business owners so aren't vat registered.
They should be paying buisness rates and should have approached the local council for clarification - it'll depend on if the flat is a holiday let as sole purpose etc.
They do pay booking site rates - namely Airbnb (it's not free) - also booking.com, last minute etc are more like 8% not 15... The Airbnb accommodation could also be on those sites.
Booking.com and Expedia are 15% commission pretty much universally
they can remove housing stock, but they are also bringing money into the area in terms of tourist spend,
Tourists can only spend when there are shops, cafes and pubs. Shops, cafes and pubs can't get staff because there is no affordable housing. There is no affordable housing because it's all been snapped up to be let out to tourists.
This issue isn't unique to Air BnB.
The price they charge for their rooms won't have VAT on either, unlike almost every hotel in the country
It's better to have lot's of hotels with, say 1000 total rooms, all paying VAT and business rates, than 500x 2 bed airbnbs instead, not paying a penny of VAT and no business rates.
In my opinion it’s all about getting the balance right. Holiday towns need holidaymakers to keep the tourist businesses thriving. Holidaymakers need somewhere to sleep. Not everyone wants to be stuck in a hotel room. Old fashioned bed & breakfast places have gone out of fashion.
I think affordable homes, which are supposed to help people on to the housing ladder, should come with an ownership condition which prevents them being used as a holiday home or air BnB. There should also be more social housing built for renting out by housing association or councils.
Tourists can only spend when there are shops, cafes and pubs. Shops, cafes and pubs can’t get staff because there is no affordable housing. There is no affordable housing because it’s all been snapped up to be let out to tourists.
So some sort of equilibrium should be reached eventually?
Eventually? What happens in the meantime? Rather like underpaid care workers, folk should just retrain, get a higher paid job, and also move from their home in order to do so?
Second homes (bought for whatever purpose) should be taxed so highly that sufficient funds are generated to pay for more, affordable, housing.
And why should rural economies by so reliant on tourism anyway?
And why should rural economies by so reliant on tourism anyway?
This is part of the problem. A lack of housing doesn't just starve areas of people pulling your pints, making your bed and frying your fish and chips.
It's all the public services, teachers, doctors, librarians, etc.
And all the private sector jobs that aren't tourism. It's difficult to run any industry if young people and graduates can't afford to move into the area.
The proliferation of holiday let's and 2nd homes turns these places into theme parks.
Also all the usual gripes about it turning housing into purely property and a middle class income generating asset rather than a place to live.
It's interesting on the job front - I pay around £100 for a changeover to a local business owner who provides that service that generally takes about 90 mins to do. That's a fair chunk of cash going directly into local businesses (around £500 - £700 per month for the last few months).
With good connectivity rural economies shouldn’t need to be reliant on tourism. That could be the working from home bonus.
However I am sitting here in Dunoon where tourism has dropped off from its hey day in the 50s & 60s. It has an ageing population and very few jobs. Compare that to Aviemore where I was at the weekend, where it’s busy, bustling & has lots of job opportunities for young folk. Ok mostly in hospitality.
Second homes are taxed higher but these funds don’t go to the local areas.
It’s all the public services, teachers, doctors, librarians, etc.
Like the ones that can't already afford to live in central Glasgow/London/Manchester/Edinburgh?
Compare that to Aviemore where I was at the weekend, where it’s busy, bustling & has lots of job opportunities for young folk. Ok mostly in hospitality.
The OBI can't open 7 days per week AND give their staff a day off because there aren't enough workers in the area. See also: every other cafe and pub in the area. Why aren't there enough workers? Because there is no housing they can afford.
So some sort of equilibrium should be reached eventually?
The current equilibrium has poor people sofa surfing / living in caravans who work for poverty wages in expensive tourist destinations, serving cream teas to tourists.
What we really need is better regulation of the uses of housing stock to strike a better balance.
That’s why we need social housing not affordable homes. The answer is not more private landlords.
Like the ones that can’t already afford to live in central Glasgow/London/Manchester/Edinburgh?
https://www.airbnb.co.uk/s/Glasgow/homes?
Etc.
From a purely selfish user perspective also:
Airbnb used to be a cool way of people letting out a spare room/yurt on their land/their house when they were away and you got to meet interesting people.
That does still exist a bit but now it seems to be far more commercial lets and the places are often bland and sterile.
Why aren’t there enough workers? Because there is no housing they can afford.
And why can't they afford it? Because their wages are crap. So what's the solution? Pay them more.
We have a house/accomodation shortage, the cost of ownership and rent are sky high, and these basically serve to make that worse so naturally it gets some stick.
But tbh airbnb volumes mean that's just a drop in the bucket, it's just a nice visible target that makes demons out of individuals instead of governments and big businesses.
They are bad for the economy because most private Airbnb owners don’t declare the income through self assessment thus siphoning off cash that should go towards paying for public services.
They also reduce profit and corporation tax payments from companies e.g. small hotels / commercial operators and reduce the number of employees in those businesses.
Is there anything to back up the hypothesis that most private Air BnB owners don’t declare the income? I would think the majority do as it is very visible if you have a property advertised online so very easy to be found out and fined.
Another point I didn’t see mentioned is that the guests are often noisier, messier and less considerate than those who live there long/term. As one example, the Airbnb guests on our road routinely cause an obstruction dumping their cars in the narrow road rather than paying 2 quid for the car park 5 mins walk away.
Several thousand flats in the town have become AirBnBs. Most are run as businesses. They effectively don’t pay business rates, just council tax, so deprive the council of income from a business but put a burden on services similar to a business.
There are several hyped Silicon Valley Unicorn type businesses that rely on bypassing regulation as their competitive advantage over incumbents. Uber did / does it with municipal hire, for example.
It doesn't mean the incumbents are effective or fair - but two wrongles don't make a right. Often, regulation is there to protect wider society from predatory behaviour or mishap. It's often not perfect, but there's an established narrative of bypassing it for personal gain and dressing it up as 'being an entrepreneur' or 'forcing efficient markets'.
Yes it's pretty bad I am afraid, I could convert my long term let's into short term let's and probably double my income, but I would be denying 2 long term tenants, 1 over 10 years, their home. Sadly the law allows it, so the govt set the rules, or the local council.
Not just air bnb, there's a few short term serviced let's in the block at hotel type prices.
Grossly unfair if you ask me and I am a landlord. I know someone who short let's his flat and because he says he lives there, which he does part year, he claims the 7.5k share a room allowance. It's not fraud, just a pxxx take.
Poolman, your friend can’t let a flat on AirBnB and use the share a room allowance unless he remains in the property. If he moves out for a short term let that’s rental income and must be declared as such.
So if your friend is “away” when the property is rented out it is potentially is fraud if he doesn’t declare the income as such - it’s not just a p*** take.
No he keeps a room there and let's a spare room via air bnb, he s no fool it's all legal. The city he does it in has a chronic housing shortage and is freezing in winter. The rules need changing, I could do it my flat, let the spare room at 100 quid a night up to the 7.5k allowance and pay no tax. There's a 90 day max on air bnb so I m well covered. The system needs changing, all credit to Tim farron in the Lakes, he s going after the holiday let's not paying council tax.
Seems to me the main problem is a lack of affordable housing. If only the government had invested in council houses after the Thatcher years of flogging them all off on the cheap. I don't know how it is in the UK but here in Germany there is a threshold on renting holiday flats which if you go ever then you are subject to business tax. And the tax office know full well who is renting properties on Booking.com or Airbnb.
City centre Airbnb’s have an issue with antisocial behaviour. It is very difficult for a landlord to prevent guests partying and pissing off the neighbour and some landlords don’t care. If a building has a number of flats being let on Airbnb or another similar company it can make weekends intolerable. The green quarter in Manchester has had massive issues with this. Pop up brothels seem to be a thing as well.
The flip side is that I’ve stayed in some superb city apartments through Airbnb
I just wouldn’t want one next door.
There are three aspects where they can be a problem:
1. Where they encourage parties / holiday maker antisocial behaviour in normal residential areas: they person staying one or two nights doesn't have to deal with the neighbours who go no sleep, whos car was blocked in / out, who had the AirBnBer put their rubbish in the wrong bin. This is mostly an issue with the person using it, although I'm sure that some landlords could be better.
2. Capital rich, fast buck seekers have grabbed all the low cost property in many areas turned it into AirBnB's and priced locals out of the area (I believe many student areas are suffering this too - typical student flats can make more money from holiday makers). This is mostly an issue with lack of supply in the UK housing sector, stupid UK property market where its hard to lose money and lenders providing ready access to capital for people to do this, but not for the people who want to live in a low income job in the area. AirBnB is not the problem here and someone else will fill the gap if it wasn't them
3. They are becoming a monopoly on booking and taking a sizable %-age, whilst paying little into the UK tax pot, and their owners are not necessarily contributing fairly either.
This IS an AirBnB issue - but its capitalism so I can't see it changing.
redfox
The price they charge for their rooms won’t have VAT on either, unlike almost every hotel in the country
You can charge VAT on Airbnb bookings. The website allows you to do it.
Most of what you’ve said is wrong tbh as well. I’m guessing you’ve just copied it from the DM or a local Bath councillor who opposes it?
I'm sure the airbnb website does allow you to charge VAT if you like, but virtually all airbnbs won't hit the VAT threshold as most are owners of 1/2/3/4 flats etc and that won't add up to the VAT threshold. Almost all hotels, pubs with rooms etc will trade over that amount so have to pay VAT on the letting income.
I love that you think I'm a DM reading Bath Tory councillor. I am a guardian reading, green voting, hotel and pub owner in Bath, so you're wrong on all counts sadly.
Seeing as you know the accommodation industry inside and out it seems could you point out exactly which statements of mine are factually incorrect?
Stop the press
“Hotel owner doesn’t like Air BnBs”
Wow who would have thunk it?
statements of mine are factually incorrect?
Pretty much All... As I stated earlier.
They may have to pay vat If they earn over the threshold. This is a function you can enable within the Airbnb hosting account.
They may have to pay buisness rates depending on the property type and how it's let. If it's their own home they may not, but that's not part of the argument against, if it's a 100% holiday let property they probably will. But at the least they should have consulted the local authority or be backdated etc. They may even have been eligible for the 10k buisness rate grants awarded by the gov last year!!
They also have to pay Airbnb and may also be on booking.com' 15% etc as you can cross play the booking sites so have to pay online fees.
Ok, so you can't be specific... lol
I'll challenge you with FACTS then: almost all airbnbs in the UK will be eligible for small business rates relief so pay zero business rates. That's why it's a tax dodge to have 1 bed flats paying zero each rather than a hotel with lots of rooms that pay a huge amount. Both businesses, both selling the same thing, but only one pays no tax and deprives local people of housing.
You cannot 'cross play' booking sites against each other. Airbnb charges 3%, substantially less than hotels pay on their dedicated sites. Typically 15%+ on booking.com, Expedia etc. Happy for you to prove you can negotiate a lower one with evidence...
And yes, I am hotel owner who dislikes tax dodging, housing depriving, unfair competitors. As would anyone. We just want a level playing field.
Holiday let’s pay around 16% on Air BnB or booking.com.
Holiday let owners have to declare their profits on HRMC self assessment and pay income tax on it like anyone else.
It’s true that most get 100% business rates relief.
If they have an income above the VAT threshold £85k they have to register charge and pay VAT. But then they an claim VAT back against expenditure.
Most will also have paid additional dwelling supplement tax on the house purchase.
You cannot ‘cross play’ booking sites against each other. Airbnb charges 3%, substantially less than hotels pay on their dedicated sites.
To the numerate this is not correct.
I can see why the innumerate might think this. That, I presume, is why they lay it out as they do.
That’s why it’s a tax dodge
Its not a tax dodge if it's two different buisness models! Some one who rents their granny anex isn't comparable to a hotel. In my area I know of around 10 local Airbnb owners, all are in their own homes apart from one who rents an entire 8bed house, he rents a small 1bed house from the income. None of these people are depriving housing to anyone. As said earlier by a few other the lack of housing in the UK is the issue, not holiday let. All airbnb have done is made it accessible and easy, like Uber Vs taxis.
The final rates Airbnb charges hosts actually work out to around 18% (just looked it up, based on what my final take home is from a three night stay) I could also be on booking.com if I wanted to, at 15% charges or any other site - there isn't an exclusivity clause with Airbnb.
The world is changing, get over it and move with it.
Where I live in Tobermory there’s a real problem with second homes, Air B’N’Bs etc as there’s a critical shortage of homes for local workers - you have the situation where people are living on the mainland and paying £30/day for the ferry to do a job paying £10/hr. Lots of hospitality businesses and hotels haven’t opened fully this year due to staff shortages - only those that can offer live-in jobs can manage. Many of these second home owners aren’t local, so a lot of this money bypasses the local economy - but the cost of cleaners/handovers has gone up a lot. A secondary affect is that with all the self-catering people in town our one local food shop has been empty almost all the time - and it’s £30 on the ferry (if you can get a booking) before you can step through Tesco’s door. There are no online food deliveries here.
Holiday let owners have to declare their profits on HRMC self assessment and pay income tax on it like anyone else.
They're supposed to, but do they? Do Airbnb share information with HMRC?
Most will also have paid additional dwelling supplement tax on the house purchase.
Hmmmm
. Houses in small scenic towns get sold to landlords for airbnb, therefore locals cant afford them
That, and the other people saying about locals being priced out always confuses me.
Someone is selling these houses. "Our children cant afford to live round here" Well no, that's because you've all sold your houses at massively inflated prices to outsiders, what do you expect? For everyone who is priced out, someone else has cashed in.
.
Also, regarding the VAT. Anyone who isn't charging VAT also isn't reclaiming any. Any who is charging it will be reclaiming on things they buy.
There are no online food deliveries here.
Slight aside, but that's crazy. I was up in Kinlochbervie the other week and came across a Tesco Delivery van - nearest tesco is over 100 miles away in Dingwall. You'd think if they can trek 100 miles out to there they could strike a deal with Calmac and do a run out from Oban to Tobermory. Apart from maybe Calmac like everyone having to trek over. So a £10 delivery fee and only available on a given day, would still be cheaper.
Yes, island population of 3,000 and there’s a smallish Co-op and a couple of Spar - there are rumours of a supermarket being built we go from week to week dreaming of tomatoes and salad..
They may reduce the incentive for some parents of adult kids to downsize and free up larger houses for families that need the space. Granted it's nice for those parents not to have to downsize for financial reasons.
The OBI can’t open 7 days per week AND give their staff a day off because there aren’t enough workers in the area. See also: every other cafe and pub in the area. Why aren’t there enough workers? Because there is no housing they can afford.
I’m sure air b n b and the current boom in demand is a factor there but is brexit also an effect? I imagine that brexit (or brexit & covid combined) means many Eastern Europeans who worked in hospitality staying in crappy facilities provided by employers said **** this and went elsewhere. Not that it was any better before - in 1996 two good friends spent the summer on Pitlochry living in a tent working in a Bakers Oven whilst my brother lived in a portacabin whilst working at a little chef…. At least to some extent if the employers haven’t sorted out accommodation or provided wages that compete it’s their own fault. Mine and mill owners had this worked out centuries ago.
Someone is selling these houses. “Our children cant afford to live round here” Well no, that’s because you’ve all sold your houses at massively inflated prices to outsiders, what do you expect? For everyone who is priced out, someone else has cashed in.
Eh, hang on, if the complainer is saying their kids can’t afford to live “round here” are the complainers not still living locally rather than having sold up? The problem is their ex-neighbours who cashed in…?
Yes, island population of 3,000 and there’s a smallish Co-op and a couple of Spar – there are rumours of a supermarket being built we go from week to week dreaming of tomatoes and salad..
There’s a market opportunity there for someone entrepreneurial. Mull is not the only place like it - but it’s a good example where the barrier to competition would help. You just need a refrigerated van, a website* and some flyers. And probably some sort of basic warehouse.
*the website needs to be a bit more sophisticated than your average Wix or Squarespace off the shelf thing but it’s not rocket science to build a web-ordering system that automatically manages the ERP side and places orders to suppliers.
Scotroutes has it right
And why should rural economies by so reliant on tourism anyway?
Why are NGOs such as National Parks or RSPB so concerned to preserve the "beautiful view" but not to preserve the local community? Or heaven forfend allow them to thrive.
Someone is selling these houses. “Our children cant afford to live round here” Well no, that’s because you’ve all sold your houses at massively inflated prices to outsiders, what do you expect
The owners of the houses don't always live in the houses. Many belong to the local landowners
Why are NGOs such as National Parks or RSPB so concerned to preserve the “beautiful view” but not to preserve the local community? Or heaven forfend allow them to thrive.
Are NPs NGOs?
Their remit certainly includes:
- to promote sustainable social and economic development of the communities of the area
That’s not mutually exclusive with looking after the natural heritage.
There’s a market opportunity there for someone entrepreneurial.
I can see myself itching starting a thread on black site food shops at that comment...... If Airbnb's are bad, then..... Etc.
@poly I would suggest that neither of the Scottish National Parks are fulfilling that part of their remit well. I think they're NGOs because some members of their board are ministerial appointees.
That, and the other people saying about locals being priced out always confuses me.
Someone is selling these houses. “Our children cant afford to live round here” Well no, that’s because you’ve all sold your houses at massively inflated prices to outsiders, what do you expect? For everyone who is priced out, someone else has cashed in.
Is there any way around that in the realm of capitalism though? If owners start selling under-market to young locals, soon those would start arbitraging the situation by selling onwards to outsiders and collecting the price difference.
Eh, hang on, if the complainer is saying their kids can’t afford to live “round here” are the complainers not still living locally rather than having sold up? The problem is their ex-neighbours who cashed in…?
Plenty of dead ex-neighbours I'd guess.
@gordomhor - does that not make them GO’s rather than NGOs then (which was what I was questioning)?
I’d probably agree though that neither seem to necessarily be hitting all 4 of the objectives with equal success. Of course that might be because some are much harder to do than others…
I thought they were partly autonomous ngos .I was trying to avoid using the acronym QUANGO