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It is Bob - but people keep arguing ex pats should get a vote.
Yep, you are exactly the sort of English tory I would be looking to get away from
hahaha awesome. Two sweeping assumptions without an actual clue.
How to come across a bit dim, in one easy sentence.
I just can’t get into the blue painted face, anti English Xenophobic attitude that most SNP voters I’ve met seem to have.
Strangely, I was out leafleting during this campaign with a fellow SNP member, who happens to be English. There is also the English for Indy group.
I've seen one or maybe two examples of anti-English behaviour that appeared on social media. These examples were rightly derided as being the actions of a handful of absolute loonballs by indy supporting folk.
Also, I've been on a few marches, and I didn't see anyone with a blue face. Maybe a few bairns with little Saltires painted on their cheeks mind you.
Is it not like that anyway?
@Bobsummers No if it wis only those who live in Scotland that had a say in running Scotland we'd be independent already
Strangely, I was out leafleting during this campaign with a fellow SNP member, who happens to be English. There is also the English for Indy group.
OOooh ... campaigning for the adopted country (party) 😂
hahaha awesome. Two sweeping assumptions without an actual clue.
"Everyone" south is a Tory? ... 🤣
(assuming) Framing everyone as "Tory south" makes target larger, convenient and legitimate.
Scotland has its hands tied behind its back tackling drugs use and deaths as drug policies are not devolved but set by Westminster dinosaurs who are against sensible debates, legalisation, education and treatment. Only concerned with self preservation and lining their own pockets rather than the greater good.
Independence is the only way forward.
OOooh … campaigning for the adopted country (party) 😂
Whatever floats your boat. I was merely pointing out that if such rampant anti English feeling exists within SNP voters (as per the post I was replying to), then how come many an English person either has joined, or voted for SNP/pro-indy parties (as have many other folk who have made their home in Scotland)?
Anyway, I'm out as not wanting to derail a thread.
yeah I could never bring myself to vote for the SNP either, usually go green when it's an option. don't like nationalism and just see the rabid snp support as tartan trumpism. wish old chazza was still around!
Whatever floats your boat.
I was "highlighting" the evidence for someone else.
I think someone in one of the SNP or Scottish independence related thread was saying something about me with my "adopted" country, so I thought the person might be somewhere in these threads. Not sure why that person was mentioning me with my "adopted" country.
Apologies, I didn't realise that.
Apologies, I didn’t realise that.
It was my mistake for not making it clear, not you. 🙂
I couldn't be bothered to response to that person so let it be ...
Vote green ? I'd rather be roasted over hot coals. Same goes for Salmond.
Yes, I would like to see him roasted over hot coals. Slowly, looks like he could provide his own basting too.
I was merely pointing out that if such rampant anti English feeling exists within SNP voters
It isn't, looked like a clear lie/troll.
Vote green ? I’d rather be roasted over hot coals.
Interested to know your reasoning
Don't like their policies?
Don't like their personalities/persona?
Don't think there are fit to lead a government?
For me - I approve of 1 but probably feel 2 and 3 are correct. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't mind a good number of them buzzing around Holyrood cutting policy compromises for their votes.
It's all interesting stuff, if there is an IndyRef2, can't see it being a no this time round in the current climate, but what i find interesting is what happens after, effectively Labour, Lib Dems and the Tories no longer have an interest, so who will govern Scotland, and how will it progress?
A long time ago the SNP was a broad church, with one goal, nowadays it's been governing Scotland, so will be interesting to see how the SNP would effectively fragment to work effectively.
I've got a conundrum with the greens. In general, I quite like them and I think they are a good influence on Holyrood.
I just can't agree with their thoughts on energy transition. They want to almost immediately end exploration and wind down North Sea production, and I don't see anything about how this equates with the fact that domestic infrastructure is not ready to support that. From memory, around 85% of domestic heating in the UK is gas fired and only 10% of last year's new car registrations were electric. This has to be addressed before ceasing the supply.
If we shut down the NS, we will be importing O&G for years if not decades to come, which comes with additional issues other than its potential for increased environmental impact.
Futureboy77
Free Member
I’ve got a conundrum with the greens. In general, I quite like them and I think they are a good influence on Holyrood.
I just can’t agree with their thoughts on energy transition. They want to almost immediately end exploration and wind down North Sea production, and I don’t see anything about how this equates with the fact that domestic infrastructure is not ready to support that. From memory, around 85% of domestic heating in the UK is gas fired and only 10% of last year’s new car registrations were electric. This has to be addressed before ceasing the supply.If we shut down the NS, we will be importing O&G for years if not decades to come, which comes with additional issues other than its potential for increased environmental impact.
Want and need are two completely different things, same as being in power and being the opposition, it's easier to promise jam tomorrow
Want and need are two completely different things, same as being in power and being the opposition, it’s easier to promise jam tomorrow
Good point.
Scottish greens have had to grow up while at Holyrood. There have been some painful lessons along the way but they are slowly turning into a mature political party getting away from the amateur pressure group days.
To equate Scottish Independence with anti-English sentiment only shows how misunderstood the relationships are in Scotland.
Brads idiotic trolling aside SNP voters are not standing at the borders chucking haggis at “the English”. What Scotland wants is what all small countries want; an opportunity to exercise a political agency that recognises the diverse nature of the cultural landscape and associated wants of the people. Westminster doesn’t provide this. Tory sleaze merely exacerbates matters. To frame Scottish nationalism as anti-English sentiment just doesn’t wash.
Scotland has its hands tied behind its back tackling drugs use and deaths as drug policies are not devolved but set by Westminster dinosaurs who are against sensible debates, legalisation
The Misuse of Drugs Act is UK wide but England has far lower drug death rates.
Wasn't Westminster that cut drug treatment funding as deaths rose
It isn’t,
It does. I know lots of nationalists and that anti English attitude is very real.
You may want to deny it due to the embarrassment of it's existence, but it's there.
Interested to know your reasoning
I think their manifesto is based in fantasy.
Got a car ?, cars are bad. Motorbike ?, any fossil fuel engine, lawnmower. All with have to stop.
So what happens to those industries ?
Also out is your gas central heating. you will be expected under law to get rid of your evil polluting central heating aned opt for something like storage heaters. YOU PAY FOR THE CHANGE.
In fact expect to be paying out for all the changes they plan to make by 2030.
10 years is a very short time really.
" The Green Party would give local Councils the power to get on with this work."
More power to local councils. This will equal more fines, more and I hate to say it but its ****g Stalinist in its approach. YOU Will DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD.
" We will look after nature and make sure there are enough places where wild creatures and plants do well. "
I dont see trail centers surviving. But hey, you'll be allowed to cycle on the roads, pathways but in the country 😕 maybe not.
"We will change the way that farmers work so that: • There is less pollution from farms"
Back to the plough. Be just like north Korea.
"Basic Income for everyone The Green Party would give a Basic Income to everyone. Basic Income is a plan to give everyone a certain regular amount of money which is enough to live on"
Just enough, by government standards.
" Basic Income would be instead of benefits."
In exchange for slave labour ?. Dont agree ?, you get nothing, so no safety net
" The Green Party wants us to stay in the European Union"
Despite the democratic vote saying the majority wanted out. Sod the majority, ergo sod democratic principle, and who says the EU would agree anyway and what if they dont. Kind of leaves it all hanging like the spare prick and the w**** wedding.
" The way we vote now means that many people don’t have a say. "
" We want to change the way votes are counted. " 😕 that sounds a bit iffy.
"We want young people to be able to vote in elections. 16 and 17 year olds should have a say because it is their future."
Give the vote to the easily influences immature children. Can't see that going wrong.
And on it goes, mass immigration, especially from war torn countries Britain had a hand in destroying. Bitterness full of hate for their oppressors. Yup thats rational thinking and no mistake.
" Help local people get the training they need for the Green New Deal "
Sorry, is that help, or force ?. on a low, decided by the powers that be, income.
Waffle waffle waffle
" Make it lawful to buy and use certain drugs. This would stop drugs being sold by violent criminals.
AKA legalize cannabis. Thats not going to help people live productive lifestyles. Drugs cause problems and not only health problems.
And more nonsense that appears to want to drive big businesses from these shore to other where taxation is lower.
Its a brave new world and you will assimilate.
It does. I know lots of nationalists and that anti English attitude is very real.
You may want to deny it due to the embarrassment of it’s existence, but it’s there.
Oh I know I exist. It's your assessment of the problem I consider a lie.
as pie monster says - its an outer fringe view only.
What Scotland wants is what all small countries want; an opportunity to exercise a political agency that recognises the diverse nature of the cultural landscape and associated wants of the people. Westminster doesn’t provide this. Tory sleaze merely exacerbates matters. To frame Scottish nationalism as anti-English sentiment just doesn’t wash.
Exactly, and that is what I would want if I lived in Scotland.
I am not anti-English, but I don't support the way the English vote for Tory governments and I don't want to be ruled by a Tory government.
Turn it around, do you think the english Tory voters would be happy to be ruled by an SNP government for best part of 70 years even though it is not the government the majority of England actually want and does not fit with their ideals for society.
What Scotland wants is what all small countries want; an opportunity to exercise a political agency that recognises the diverse nature of the cultural landscape and associated wants of the people. Westminster doesn’t provide this. Tory sleaze merely exacerbates matters. To frame Scottish nationalism as anti-English sentiment just doesn’t wash.
Perfectly put.
How to come across a bit dim, in one easy sentence.
I think you started it.
Where did user dyna-ti come from?
[quote="argee"]
I............. but what i find interesting is what happens after, effectively Labour, Lib Dems and the Tories no longer have an interest, so who will govern Scotland, and how will it progress?
A long time ago the SNP was a broad church, with one goal, nowadays it’s been governing Scotland, so will be interesting to see how the SNP would effectively fragment to work effectively.
The SNP is too broad to continue post independence - the glue that sticks it together from the hunting shooting fishing rural right to the urban left will have gone. At some point it will have to split.
I see significant realignment in scottish politics post independence. Labour and the left of the SNP would naturally form a large centre left grouping leaving room for a hard left group of some sort. Greens and liberals in the middle. The right of the SNP with the sensible edge of the scots tories become the centre right group. Maybe a hard right headbanger group. Both labour and the tories would benefit from not being controlled from down south especially the tories. We like a tory with gravitas preferably smelling of tweed not a posh boy or city slicker. given the way scotland has voted over decades this would lead to basically centre left coalitions with occasional spells of centre right
Plenty of room for single issue candidates as well as new parties arising
LOL at my typo, "I" = "they"
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I just look at the **** up that's Brexit and look at a referendum and it scares me as I just cant see it being done any better.
I think a bit more devolved power would be best short term. Just to let the world settle
Also if you asked the north of England they'd want to leave that shower of shit in Westminster behind too.
Some of the SNP policies appeal but are they fully costed?
I think you started it.
By stating the nationalists I know are xenophobes ?
Grow up dude. Jumping on your little bandwagon makes you come across as simple.
I get that my name is a red rag to some on here but at least make an effort to read the thread first.
If most I come into contact with are anti English then my impression will be of an anti English attitude, nothing you say can change that.
Most will say it's Westminster when pushed, but they casually talk about the English problem, ,which kinda says it all about them.
And this from a place that thinks every Tory is a pheasant shooting greedy lying racist haha.
It's Grouse shooting north of the border ;o)
What Scotland wants is what all small countries want; an opportunity to exercise a political agency that recognises the diverse nature of the cultural landscape and associated wants of the people. Westminster doesn’t provide this. Tory sleaze merely exacerbates matters. To frame Scottish nationalism as anti-English sentiment just doesn’t wash.
This. I am Indian by birth, English by upbringing, three kids born in England who consider themselves Scottish now. I live among so many people up here who also have seriously diverse upbringing and backgrounds, as well as friends who have moved a total of 125metres from where they were brought up. The piddling minority who demonstrate anti-English sentiment are overwhelmed by the positive attitudes of the masses.
My thoughts on independence are very little to do with nationalism - and everything to do with a more local, connected set of politicians. I buy the whole SNP/Green/Scottish Lib. Dem. vision of a fairer, greener, happier, healthier and wealthier country. I even listen to the subtle differences in Scottish Labour and Scottish Conservative views and think they to are seeing an opportunity to create a better Scotland.
I don't feel the same when I listen to most Westminster politicians.
None of our politics are perfect, nor will they satisfy everyone on every topic. Underlying this though is that a closer relationship between people, politicians and policy surely is a Good Thing.
+1 mattandabout well said and agree wholeheartedly.
Almost 100% what @matt_outandabout said, my only difference there is that I don't think the Scottish Tories are sounding any different to Westminster - it seems to be the same stuff and they are absolutely convinced we shouldn't be considering independence or having much thought for what is good for the country but all the thinking for the Union.
I don't proactively follow politics, but this thread has shown I appear to have taken more in than I thought I had, likewise, it has also flagged that there is a lot more people doing a lot more thinking about this than I am as well.
Where did user dyna-ti come from?
Oh jings, has nobody explained this to you ?
Well when a mummy and a daddy really love eachother......
😂
Just because a shitshow has beem made of UK leaving the EU by the Conservative Brexit fact-denying Evangelicals (or if you want to pin down the exact crap decision point - serving Article 50 about five/ten years too early for reasons of political expedience) does not mean that Scotland leaving the UK will be so badly done.
The Misuse of Drugs Act is UK wide but England has far lower drug death rates.
That's actually a good argument FOR giving the devolved nations an ability to do something about it themselves as clearly a one size fits all approach isn't working. Of course its right to ask why is England not seeing the same effect, and can Scotland learn from that. In fact - whilst the absolute numbers (per capita) are higher in Scotland - the rate of increase in England is just as alarming. And, certainly in Scotland, many of the drug-related deaths are in people who became addicted before the SNP were in power, and often before devolution - there isn't a magic solution for this, but quite clearly doing more of the same isn't going to solve it.
Edit - I was typing this on the response to @hels, but looks like someone else posted before I did so mine now looks a bit wonky!
Agree (with @hels response), but this is very similar to Brexit in the sense a country is leaving a Union, so it very clearly isn't going to be easy - the rest of the Union will be fighting to keep all the good stuff, whereas, Scotland will also be fighting to get back the good stuff (along with everything else - I'd seriously hope we didn't try and not take ownership of any debts that Scotland had created for itself).
So learnings will hopefully have been learnt, but it isn't going to be easy and it is also very likely to please everyone along the way with details...
@DickBarton - but there is, at least at the moment, not an internal political strife within the ruling party in Scotland that is driving the pace (although 'Eck might be working on it) and there is unanimity amongst the party that they do want to go. Brexit was partly a shit show because the conservative party risked exploding if there was any kind of patient, considered exit. The EU also had a particular mechanism to invoke (Art.50) which they used to prevent premature negotiations and then imposed a hard deadline; as far as I am aware the Act of Union has no such proviso - which may be both a good and a bad thing.
Agree with that as well, I suspect a lot of the turmoil with Brexit was caused by UK Government arguing with itself and UK Parliament also wading in. I'd hope an independence vote to split the Union wouldn't be as messy as that (or as desperate), but it won't be clean or easy.
I can see less arguments on the Scottish side than the UK Government side, but there won't be none.
Salmond's new party is just a completed wasted vote - they seem to be just looking to sort independence but nothing else, SNP is already offering that, but also doing a lot more (as someone said earlier, SNP have had a fair run at this and have learned there is more to being in power than bleating on about being independent - likewise, the Greens have also 'matured'. The Tories appear to have regressed, Labour I think has stagnated and Lib Dems I'm not sure of...(all from my limited time spent around politics).
I'm no huge fan of the Greens - but have you actually bothered to explore these questions with the Scottish Green Party or just jumped to conclusions?
I think their manifesto is based in fantasy.
Got a car ?, cars are bad. Motorbike ?, any fossil fuel engine, lawnmower. All with have to stop.
So what happens to those industries ?
Pretty much all parties actually say something similar! Its the timing not the substance that changes. And they all say important to redeploy the people from affected industries. Probably more likely to get a sensible answer how/where from the greens is they see it as "today's" problem than several parliamentary cycles away!
Also out is your gas central heating. you will be expected under law to get rid of your evil polluting central heating aned opt for something like storage heaters. YOU PAY FOR THE CHANGE.
In fact expect to be paying out for all the changes they plan to make by 2030.
10 years is a very short time really.
I don't think they've said get rid of central heating and replace with storage heaters. They say get rid of gas burning boilers and replace with air or ground source heatpumps etc. Their manifesto says: 1. 500K replacements by 2030 (so that's maybe 1:5 at most) and 2. Grants to support cost.
” The Green Party would give local Councils the power to get on with this work.”
More power to local councils. This will equal more fines, more and I hate to say it but its ****g Stalinist in its approach. YOU Will DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD.
I can't see where that quote appears in the Scottish Green's manifesto? Although they do believe in local decision making wherever possible. The Scottish Parliament unanimously supported a Bill to that effect recently - so all parties agree with the sentiment in theory at least.
” We will look after nature and make sure there are enough places where wild creatures and plants do well. ”
I dont see trail centers surviving. But hey, you’ll be allowed to cycle on the roads, pathways but in the country 😕 maybe not.
Again that doesn't seem to be a quote from the manifesto - but they are generally pro-access laws so I doubt trail centres are under threat - but and I know this is controversial, people could always ride their MTBs in the mountains if they are!
“We will change the way that farmers work so that: • There is less pollution from farms”
Back to the plough. Be just like north Korea.
Of course the ONLY way you can make farms less polluting is removing tractors?
“Basic Income for everyone The Green Party would give a Basic Income to everyone. Basic Income is a plan to give everyone a certain regular amount of money which is enough to live on”
Just enough, by government standards.
” Basic Income would be instead of benefits.”
In exchange for slave labour ?. Dont agree ?, you get nothing, so no safety net
I don't think you understand how UBI works. Its a really interesting idea. There are obviously questions over its funding, but more importantly over the impact on economics - but it is NOT money for slave labour. It is a safety net with no strings or special rules attached. Finland, Canada and the Netherlands have all run small scale trials of the concept (none have been a disaster as far as I understand it). You could say that the UK govt furlough scheme actually comes close to this - but with a weakness that some people don't qualify.
” The Green Party wants us to stay in the European Union”
Despite the democratic vote saying the majority wanted out. Sod the majority, ergo sod democratic principle, and who says the EU would agree anyway and what if they dont. Kind of leaves it all hanging like the spare prick and the w**** wedding.
This is the stated policy of at least the SNP, Lib Dems and Greens in Scotland. The Scottish greens don't care what the democratic will of the "UK" was as they support independence. However how long before a UK party is able to say "we want to rejoin the EU, Brexit was not what it promised to be"?
” The way we vote now means that many people don’t have a say. ”
” We want to change the way votes are counted. ” 😕 that sounds a bit iffy.
Hardly a policy unique to the Greens - in fact the only parties who oppose that are the ones that consistently get good majorities with a minority of the vote!
“We want young people to be able to vote in elections. 16 and 17 year olds should have a say because it is their future.”
Give the vote to the easily influences immature children. Can’t see that going wrong.
You clearly aren't reading a Scottish Green manifesto - because this is already the case in Scotland - not an unreasonable position to expect people who in the course of this parliament will pay taxes, fight in our wars, go to our universities, select careers in our economy and potentially begin families of their own to have a say in how their country is run.
And on it goes, mass immigration, especially from war torn countries Britain had a hand in destroying. Bitterness full of hate for their oppressors. Yup thats rational thinking and no mistake.
Do any of the Scottish parties have a policy opposing immigration? Do any specifically say they think we should exclude countries Britain has destroyed?
” Help local people get the training they need for the Green New Deal ”
Sorry, is that help, or force ?. on a low, decided by the powers that be, income.Waffle waffle waffle
You are still confused by UBI - go and look it up, I suggest you are sitting down and have a stiff drink when you do - its clearly going to give you an annurism when you realise that its money for doing nothing and you get paid for any job you do on top of this!
” Make it lawful to buy and use certain drugs. This would stop drugs being sold by violent criminals.
AKA legalize cannabis. Thats not going to help people live productive lifestyles. Drugs cause problems and not only health problems.
Drugs do cause problems, quite a lot of them linked to their association with criminal gangs. I've not seen any evidence that states which have legalised canabis have gone to the dogs yet? On the other hand those states now have a new source of taxation.
And more nonsense that appears to want to drive big businesses from these shore to other where taxation is lower.
Its a brave new world and you will assimilate.
Which big business? Because either they are here for something that is geographic or they would probably already have gone / moved money elsewhere.
We will look after nature and make sure there are enough places where wild creatures and plants do well. ”
I dont see trail centers surviving. But hey, you’ll be allowed to cycle on the roads, pathways but in the country 😕 maybe not.
One of their MSP's is pictured below. He lurks on here at times. He's trying to develop a local trails in Doune and has openly supported other trail centres and trails. His family is involved in the local bike club, MTB side of things. He gets access issues and is active on them. He's also a huge supporter of outdoor learning and helped lead a piece of work to try and make an annual residential experience a reality for all kids in Scotland.
Methinks you need to do more research.
Edit: I wonder how many other MSP's/MP's/Assembly members are so 'outdoory sporty'?
Kingmakers in the new German parliament? Most likely will be the Greens.
Blaming the SNP for heroin deaths in Glasgow is absurd. Drug policy is reserved for Westminster. the Scottish Government has tried to do stuff but Westminster said no - to safe consumption rooms. this issue is very little to do with cannabis.
the "war on drugs" has failed. millions of Uk citizens take illegal drugs. Most of them come to little or no harm. countries with more liberal laws have less drug issues
Both are quoted from Page 8
Their rhetoric has been the same, I dont see it changing to any great degree, and if it has to that extent, then thats clear they cannot be trusted.
"The Green Party would give local Councils the power to get on with this work"
I can’t see where that quote appears in the Scottish Green’s manifesto? ...
” We will look after nature and make sure there are enough places where wild creatures and plants do well. ”
Again that doesn’t seem to be a quote from the manifesto
Admittedly much of it is tongue in cheek, I play for laughs. But thanks for trying to rip it to shreds.
Lets just not bother and you keep such opinion to your self and I'll keep my interpretations to my self and all will be well with the world eh bud 😉
@dyna-ti - I see what you’ve done, it’s a bit embarrassing but you’ve confused the UK Green Party (dumbed down version for those who aren’t interested in details) 2019 Manifesto with the *Scottish* Green Party 2021 Manifesto which you’ll find here:
(In case you are not clear the two are entirely separate organisations, the Scottish one is not a subsidiary of the English one like other uk parties).
Awkward - but at least you’ve not called a complete stranger on the internet “bud” whilst telling them on a discussion forum to keep their opinions to themselves because that really would be embarrassing, oh...
Sort of school boy error really, I assume you’ve not passed your own self imposed maturity and common sense requirements for voting.
Silly me. Thats google for you..
Stil dont feel I should be asked to explain a partys policies and have my personal opinion of torn to bits. Im not responsible for their manifesto, nor am responsible for what they may or may not do if elected.
I mean, wouldnt it be so surprising if a party promised one thing, then after winning did the complete opposite. That would be a first.
Should I feel that i have to explain everything point for point. Thats a bit like being trolled isnt it.
Thats a truly massive post you've put up. Perhaps you'd care to explain why and in detail as to why you have no love for the greens. Scanning over each there appear to be quite similar, certainly talking the same issues and thee same solutions. Drugs, the environment, etc.
As to green party Scotland, versus Green part England. Is there that much of a radical difference between them ?
You’re the one that’s been ignorant enough to equate a UBI with slave labour… yet someone has been kind enough to run through your points one by one and try and point out where you might be misunderstanding things… just thank them for their time and effort, do some further reading, perhaps even try to learn more about the things you’re so wary of.
Dyna - it wouldn’t be much of a green party if they weren’t prioritising the environment etc, and they are both members of an European alliance of green parties so of course there are similarities to the sentiments. Am I trolling you? No quite the opposite I’m correcting your misconceptions when I suspect you are actually trolling here as you haven’t understood the basics of what you are posting, and then using the “Edinburgh defence”.
In terms of why I’m not a huge fan of the Scottish greens: I think they lack clear distinctive leadership (that’s a conscious choice for them not like the rest of the opposition who are just a bit meh) the greens chose to have two leaders. I don’t think it works. The Economic viability of their policies is suspect, and it’s easy to have big ideas when there’s really no prospect of you being the largest party. Their approach to trans rights / women’s rights and an unwillingness to recognise that there can be a conflict between the two, doesn’t sit particularly well with me (the SNP has similar issues). But more to the point, for a party that positions itself strongly around open democracy and debate to take disciplinary action against members who vote against the pale hip is wrong; especially on non headline technicalities with well thought out reasons.
That said, no party is even close to perfect so they are still a credible option. If you rebadged them as something other that “green” I think their agenda fits well with a lot of people in Scotland and they’d do quite well.
That’s a great post by @poly good effort.
Easy to get your back up if your already part way there but I’d be appreciative of anyone who took the time to engage and challenge my thinking in that way. Especially as the points are all easily verifiable from the provided explanations.
One question from me @dyna-ti
Where did the perception that UBI = Slave Labour originate from. I’ve seen nothing even close to making that comparison.
One question from me @dyna-ti
Where did the perception that UBI = Slave Labour originate from. I’ve seen nothing even close to making that comparison.
Well most of it the rhetoric is with humour. But the 'slave labour' is in response to my own experiences of government schemes for people not working. ET,YTS etc. All were saying pretty much the same thing. Telling people they'll supply them work, but the reality of it was you worked 40 hours for ET(£10 extra) or YTS(£20 extra) on to of basic benefits. I'm really bias against any party promising it because i know from experience theres always a catch.
As someone who is on benefits, the parties arent addressing me or anyone in that position, but working people and in the end those working people will happily accept whatever is proposed against us benefit scroungers. That tale is old, very old. It fills me with dread sometimes 🙁
But it doesnt matter anyway. I'm just looking at the policies with a cynical eye, and my own black humour. Didnt know that was going to cause so much consternation.
Universal basic income and similar ideas work totally differently to what you are talking about. Universal being the key. Enough to keep people out of poverty. Recouped by a rejig of taxation for those earning. Its great benefits are the universality - no one falls thru gaps and also simplicity and thus administrative costs
my own experiences of government schemes for people not working. ET,YTS etc. All were saying pretty much the same thing. Telling people they’ll supply them work, but the reality of it was you worked 40 hours for ET(£10 extra) or YTS(£20 extra) on to of basic benefits. I’m really bias against any party promising it because i know from experience theres always a catch.
As someone who is on benefits, the parties arent addressing me or anyone in that position, but working people and in the end those working people will happily accept whatever is proposed against us benefit scroungers.
I’d go do some proper investigations because greens are very much addressing you (and you are probably right most of the others are not). The whole idea of universal credit is the antithesis of what you describe - no work required in return: it works on the basis that there is enough wealth for everyone to be “OK” if they want or need to be. No qualifying criteria for benefits, no sanctions for missing a (probably pointless) meeting when your bus didn’t turn up; no benefits stigma. Every adult (including those in work) gets enough to survive on - I’ve seen the level of state pension suggested as an example so ~ £9k pa. People who choose to work get this too, but end up paying more tax. People who can’t work or choose not to work have at least the protection of benefits with no fear that if they try to get a job they loose the basic income. From your side of the equation it should look like a great idea; I can’t believe you are dismissing it and spreading falsehoods about it because parties 30 years ago who are the social and economic opposite of the greens screwed you over. The issues with it are not the ones you cite - they are affordability, potential for high inflation, and getting the lucky high earners to pay sufficient tax to offset it.
Let's face it, the general public would never back UBI. They have a hard enough time accepting that people need benefits and label them as scroungers (until they need benefits and then scream they are too low to possibly live on).
Combined with the ignorance around it as demonstrated above it hasn't got a chance.
Have any countries (obviously more progressive than UK) every come close to implementing it?
A quick Google suggests Mongolia and Islamic Republic of Iran had pilots but no country has fully implemented it.
Have any countries (obviously more progressive than UK) every come close to implementing it?
Alaska? The Permanent Fund
Was in bakers this morning and a slightly older lady was going on about not voting as she didn't want independence. Someone suggested Labour or Tories for her - she turned her nose up at the Tories. She didn't want SNP in as all the money they get is being spent on independence and she works for the NHS and they get nothing. Someone pointed out that SNP got 4% pay rise for NHS workers to which she agreed and then claimed half of that 4% was syphoned off to pay for independence so they got nothing.
I'm kind of glad I heard it as it proves to me that I've a bit more of an interest and understanding than some (although still very little), but likewise it is worrying that people have these thoughts when the facts don't match up to them...it is concerning when they have heard this from and then got it in their head that it is true.
Anyway, voting is on for tomorrow so hopefully everyone will turn out and vote, that way when it does all go pear-shaped they can all complain rightly that they didn't vote for this, rather than not voting at all.
Sturgeon was going on about UBI at beginning of pandemic.
Seems like it's in their manifesto
Alaska? The Permanent Fund
Seems like more of a "bonus" from oil profits and has paid out an average of approximately $1,600 annually per resident so not going to cut it.
Interesting times for Scotland. I have no vote as no longer live there but still follow the independence campaign though not closely I admit. For the yes voters do you think Scotland can have its own independent currency and compete financially on a world stage. I’ve seen or heard very little on how it’s all going to be paid for but maybe that’s just not sexy enough for the news or I missed it. I’ve got family in Glasgow still who are split 50/50 on leave or stay though it’s all getting a bit brexittoxic but that’s difficult descisions for you.
; I can’t believe you are dismissing it and spreading falsehoods about it because parties 30 years ago
Those are just the examples that affected me. Im sure if you looked into it the same system was replaced by something else under a different name over the past 30 or so years.
Some believe that community service should be a requirement for receiving UBI. So you receive a basic income, but you have to work for it. HOW is that any different to any other government work scheme. It appears to be the same thing rolled out time and again under a different title.
And UBI has its many criticisms,one of them being the staggering cost £28 billion it is thought would cost the UK. Theres also criticism that it will remove the will to work, if you're going to get an income anyway. I expect the knock on from that is less working, less taxable income, as we've seen during this pandemic which nobody can deny has caused a great deficit.
So spreading falsehoods 😕 Hardly. Maybe if I had a soapbox in the town square.. but you asked me I answered from the perspective of my experience.
If you've a problem with the cost of UBI, best you don't hear about Track & Trace.
The difference with UBI being that the cost is covered by increased taxes, i.e. if I earn £60K after tax today then I would get £50K after tax + £10K UBI.
Whether people would be less willing to work, who knows but most people would probably rather have £25K than £10K to live on.
£28 billion isn’t a big number on this sort of scale in terms of number of recipients. State pension is somewhere in the region of £100bn
Does anyone have any reasonable estimates of actual cost factoring in any saving by other existing benefits being cut?
And from what I understand, by definition, if you make someone work for UBI it’s not UBI?
To the "how will you pay for it?" brigade - pick up an atlas. There are many countries with five million (or fewer) people and some/many/most of them are doing OK.
If I was Queen of Scotland I would devolve powers gradually over time, a process which has already started in case you haven't noticed - in spite of attempts by UKG to grab some back.
Sorry, just trying to be pragmatic. Which you need experience of, not what might be in an ideal setting. Oops, we over estimated....
£10K UBI.
£200 a week 😕 Is that the vote winning figure thats being banded about ?
For the yes voters do you think Scotland can have its own independent currency and compete financially on a world stage.
For me the euro is the only obvious answer. An independent currency is not needed
Pound during transition - remember scotland owns 9% of it!
For me the euro is the only obvious answer
What's the appetite for it in Scotland, how would it go down with folk? Genuinely ignorant here, so excuse the daft question, but if you suggested the Euro in England...well, doesn't need to be said, does it?
£200 a week 😕 Is that the vote winning figure thats being banded about ?
That was an example, notice how it was such a round figure 🙂
Not sure it is vote winning, it is just a better system than current benefits systems and you would be grateful for it if you ever lost your job and already had it rather than go through the pain and delay of UC.
What’s the appetite for it in Scotland, how would it go down with folk? Genuinely ignorant here, so excuse the daft question, but if you suggested the Euro in England…well, doesn’t need to be said, does it?
I suspect not much different up here hence its not mentioned.
@Poly
I see the latest is the Kickstart scheme. Paying at the minimum wage for a maximum of 6 months.
The actual Apprentice rate is £4.30.(data 2020)
Well strike me down if thats not a similar scheme to all the rest. Minimum wages for a 40 hour week. Though given they're going to be classed as "Apprentices" then that qualifies them for the lowest rate in any job. Why is that do you think 😕
And clearly an apprenticeship lasts longer than 6 months doesnt it ?. Usually 3-4 years. Odd they call it an apprenticeship then.
.
Except for the fact that puts them on the lowest minimum.
Dont want my cynicism to rub off on anyone here 😆
Not sure it is vote winning,
I think it is and i think that very clever. We know many young people dont actually vote, and we know 16,17 yr olds are generally a poor lot. Especially those in low income families.
Maybe we should have New Model Army playing in the background 😆
Notice the recent rumblings about lowering the voting age to 16. Seems to tie in quite nicely.
I suspect not much different up here hence its not mentioned.
Ooof, going to be a hard sell when it comes to it!
They must be distant rumblings all the way from 2013.
Notice the recent rumblings about lowering the voting age to 16. Seems to tie in quite nicely
The voting age is sixteen
16 Scotland,Wales(16 years old in Scottish Parliament and local elections (and other elections when you're 18). 18 England.
UBI is a central government initiative.