[Closed] Who's the most hated- Blair or Thatcher?

to be fair Tony didn't actually do that himself though

I'm pretty sure we would have if given the chance (or offered money), he seems happy to do absolutely anything for money.

I believe an invading/occupying force has responsibility to offer protection/security to the civilian population under the Geneva convention - so even if it was just through negligence the blood is still on our/his hands.

I like an internet argument as much as anyone but I can't put much effort into deciding which of 2 total ****s is the ****iest.

I believe an invading/occupying force has responsibility to offer protection/security to the civilian population under the Geneva convention - so even if it was just through negligence the blood is still on our/his hands.

But hes the Middle Easts Envoy for Peace dude..

Shows how seriously he tales his role...even after invading and killing them he is still caring and making things better.

Grum - Yeah but Tony and GW assumed they'd be showered in flowr petals and carried aloft by the grateful masses freed from their tyrranical ruler to sell oil cheaply to the US and us. They were fully convinced that their threadbare plans for a new administration would succeed. Once they realised they'd unleashed 30 years of simmering sectarian hatred and were really powerless to do anything about it, without declaring war (again) on the populace, they were already ****ed. Hubris, vanity and incompetence? yes, calculation? no.

(well apart from the lying to make the case for war, yeah that was calculated and probably a war crime of sorts (IANAL))

Thatcher

Not really any point in hating either of them. They're both truly vile sociopaths in their own ways, but one's dead, and the other one's oblivious to anything other than himself and all his dodgy acquired cash. They've done their plentiful (and in the case of Thatcher malicious) damage and moved on

If you want someone who's presently truly deserving of your vitriolic loathing, take your pick.....

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Theres a good few candidates there

And I was SO looking forward, in the eighties, to being told what to do by Arthur "Combover" Scargill and Mick "NeedsTheOpticians" McGahey...

Yes, she RUINED it all. 😥

Never had hague down as a centre forward. and I'm surpirised Ken's not on the left wing.

Hahahaha - Jeeez i crack myself up.

Are you here all week? 😉

Sadly, probably, yes.

I'd bet it if you asked 100 people in the street you have a 100% inverse correlation between who they'd pick and who'll they'll vote for next year.

For me it's Thatcher, I see the legacy of her failings every day even now 25 years later, the huge swathes of multi-generational unemployment a few miles from my door, the every increasing energy costs, the housing market that servers her generation and none other - she sold the family silver for short term gain - Sid might have made a few quid on British Gas, but it's his kids who are paying the bills now and his parents who have to decide if they want to eat or turn on the heating this week.

Blair, who was, far, far from perfect - but his greatest failing of course was going to war - but let's not forget they the government as a whole voted for it and whilst he's a pariah because we lost 179 of 'our boys' in Iraq, Maggie was loved for losing 258 in the Falklands.

Anyone who thinks Blair is worse than Thatcher isn't a) working class or, b) a Northener. IMHO of course.

Having said that, this current crop of Tories (with one or two notable exceptions)are more right wing than Thatcher in most respects ......

Anyone who thinks Blair is worse than Thatcher isn't a) working class or, b) a Northener. IMHO of course.

Yes because one had a Barrister as a Father and the other a Greengrocer.

Hating a person (especially dead ones) is pretty unpleasant IMO.

I hated and liked some other their policies - although in the case of Thatcher, her contribution (good and bad) was much less that is made out, since Thathcherism was largely a myth used by both sides. But Blair's contributions are overshadowed by the prosecution of an illegal war and his subsequent activities - those actions are the things that I hate most. Probably an ok bloke in the flesh though.

Your photo needs updating Binners!!

Hora 😉

It's a bit like asking who's worse (and yes I realise that this invokes Godwins law, but it's a perfect analogy because of their supposed leanings), Stalin or Hitler?

Let's face it neither of them were any good for you, unless you were part of the political elite and all four had their "social engineering" agendas.

whilst he's a pariah because we lost 179 of 'our boys' in Iraq

You serious?

I was thinking of the 500,000 or so Iraqis who died...

As someone who also lived through the nasty, malicious, and vindictive devastation Thatcher metered out to the community I grew up in, and plenty more in the North, she is truly deserving of every single piece of the vitriolic hatred that came her way. Along with most of the people I know; I absolutely despise her and everything she stood for. And I raised a glass when she died. The bitch!!

Blair? He's just Thatchers creation.Her walking, breathing, money-worshiping legacy. I don't even hate him. I just view him with utter and complete contempt. Theres a big difference

hora - Member
Yes because one had a Barrister as a Father and the other a [b]Greengrocer[/b]

He was also a councillor, part-time Justice of the Peace, president of the Chamber of Trade, President of Rotary, a director of the Grantham Building Society, a director of the Trustee Savings Bank, chairman of the local National Savings Movement, a governor of the local boys' and girls' grammar schools and chairman of the Workers' Educational Association, Chairman of the Finance and Rating Committee, Alderman and Mayor of Grantham.

And councillor, part-time Justice of the Peace, president of the Chamber of Trade, President of Rotary, a director of the Grantham Building Society, a director of the Trustee Savings Bank, chairman of the local National Savings Movement, a governor of the local boys' and girls' grammar schools and chairman of the Workers' Educational Association, Chairman of the Finance and Rating Committee, Alderman and Mayor of Grantham.

A green grocers apprentice, opens own business and is firmly a member of the community and part of the community.

Where she came from - what she did in a mans world. Thats why I can't 'hate' her and I come from working class roots/the north.

Anyway, I can't defend her. Something happened to the Sikh's even if it was just an advisor sent over.

*looking at the photo*
hmmm, has Nick Griffin snuck in at the back there? (No. 1)

Donkeys led by donkeys. When your unions, led by nitwits and Stalinist romantics, decides it's going to take over governing the country from the elected government, on behalf of it's "class", guess what happens?

As opposed to *s led by *s?

Whatever.

Something happened to the Sikh's even if it was just an advisor sent over.

Not sure what this is referring to- is there a bit of history I have misssed out on?

I can only speak personally, I don't hate either, I would take Thatcher over Blair if I had to pick one to dislike more.

As I must have posted a dozen times any UK Prime Minister would have put troops into Afghanistan or Iraq, anyone daft enough to believe the "45 mins threat claim" only has themselves to blame.

Thatcher did what she had to do and was brave enough to stand by those decisions. I'm fairly sure if she'd been in power over the past eleven years, we wouldn't be in the mess we are now.

She understood basic economics, which seems to be beyond most Politicians....basically that you can't spend what you don't earn and if something doesn't make a profit, or worse loses money....you shut it down.

Harsh admittedly, but necessary.

(plus she was my Boss when I was in the Falklands and we felt backed)

anyone daft enough to believe the "45 mins threat claim" only has themselves to blame.

I don't think anyone outside Westminster actually believed that

Rockape63 - Member

Thatcher did what she had to do and was brave enough to stand by those decisions.

Except for the ones she didn't.

She understood basic economics

She above.

I don't think anyone outside Westminster actually believed that

I don't think that the people in Westminster believed it either

I'm fairly sure if she'd been in power over the past eleven years, we wouldn't be in the mess we are now.

Oh the....

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Its the economic system she ushered in, with her mate Ronnie on the other side of the atlantic, (The Big Bang - unregulated free market, red-in-tooth-and-claw Chicago School capitalism, coupled with aggressive deindustrialisation)that was, and still is, the root cause of the mess we're presently in 🙄

Thatcher failed in all her stated aims, ie, reducing unemployment, taxation, and government spending.

And average growth in the 1980s, despite the bonanza of North Sea oil, was exactly the same as in the 1970s.

Thatcher was of course hugely successful in her unstated aims.

the root cause of the mess we're presently in

Is, I think you'll find, the British Politician's love of all things Corporate and subsidised by the Free Money Tree, for example - throwing billions of taxpayer's pounds at failed banks.

A truly free market has never been allowed, by Thatcher or anyone else.

bonanza of North Sea oil

Ahh, North Sea Oil. Apparently hardly mentioned in her memoirs even though, or probably because, it contributed to the myth she was econmically savvy.

She understood basic economics

Folk bought it because they understand nothing about economics.

Thatcher failed in all her stated aims, ie, reducing unemployment, taxation, and government spending.

Thatcher was of course hugely successful in her unstated aims.

Its got a familiar ring to it, that....

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Donkeys led by donkeys. When your unions, led by nitwits and Stalinist romantics, decides it's going to take over governing the country from the elected government, on behalf of it's "class", guess what happens?

I don't think you really got Animal Farm.

There's no donkeys in Animal Farm

The joke doesn't work if it needs to be explained.

Let's be be pragmatic here - Thatcher is dead Blair isn't - So it makes far more sense to hate Tony more - if by any chance this sentiment ever reached critical mass just maybe some semblance of justice might be served - LOCK. HIM UP AND THROW AWY THE KEY !

[i]Its the economic system she ushered in, with her mate Ronnie on the other side of the atlantic, (The Big Bang - unregulated free market, red-in-tooth-and-claw Chicago School capitalism, coupled with aggressive deindustrialisation)that was, and still is, the root cause of the mess we're presently in [/i]

You forgot to add....IMHO!

Unfortunately (for you) there are considerably cleverer people who don't frequent STW, who have quite different opinions! 🙄

I'd say it's more of a fact than an opinion.

These clever people? They'd be the ones in 'The City' I presume? The Masters of the Universe she so benevolently bequeathed us. Well I think we all know where their dazzling, much-heralded cleverness got us

Unfortunately (for you) there are considerably cleverer people who don't frequent STW, who have quite different opinions!

Clever people with different unspecified opinions ? Well no need to explain anymore, no one can refute that, that's me convinced.

😆

Rockape63 - Member

She understood basic economics, which seems to be beyond most Politicians....basically that you can't spend what you don't earn and if something doesn't make a profit, or worse loses money....you shut it down.

Harsh admittedly, but necessary.

(plus she was my Boss when I was in the Falklands and we felt backed)

You realise the armed forces don't make a profit? Close 'em down!

[i]These clever people? They'd be the ones in 'The City' I presume?[/i]

Never presume!

[i]Clever people with different unspecified opinions ? Well no need to explain anymore, no one can refute that, that's me convinced.[/i]

Indeed...there are clever people out there who don't agree with most of the claptrap written by the guardianista's on here!

Who'd have thunk it eh? 😕

Well... when you put it like that ... in the face of such incontrovertible evidence of my obvious errors of judgement, thats me convinced too.

Please ignore all my previous posts on the subject

Wasn't alive when Thatcher as prime minister. Blair's a war criminal.

My mum's family are Scottish, they use Thatcher as a swear word. 😆

Who's the most hated- Blair or Thatcher?

That should be 'the [u]more[/u] hated'. There is only two of them.

As he once said, "education, education, education".

Clever people can have certificates.

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Unfortunately (for you) there are considerably cleverer people who don't frequent STW, who have quite different opinions!

But there is a real weight of informed opinion that the unreconstructed market policies of Thatcher and Reagan are unworkable - a number of those who disagree with Thatcherism have Nobel prizes in economics or senior positions in the international financial and market governance bodies.

This does not of course mean they are right or wrong, knowledge evolves and economics may not have an "right" answer other than dogmatism is the real problem. Simply saying that the Chicago School inspired liberal market reforms are the "truth" of economics and anyone who disagrees doesn't understand is a pretty demining indictment of the limitations of a lot of mainstream economic teaching.

But then what do I know.

She understood basic economics

konabunny - Member
That's probably why she was such a fan of monetarism, then.

She was never a fan of monetarism! Except for when she was.

You realise the armed forces don't make a profit?

Not really true is it, they do the business development, marketing, sales and networking, and every company needs a good sales & marketing team.

Blair deffo most hated, under him parliament spent 700 hours debating fox hunting between 97 and 04. Yet things like going to war, tuition fees, selling gold on the cheap, raiding pensions, making GP's minted for delivering less all passed without anything like the same scrutiny.

You lot are to be stepped on by [b][u]all[/u][/b] the political zombie parties regardless of who they are. 🙄

These clever people? They'd be the ones in 'The City' I presume?

Blair deffo most hated, under him parliament spent 700 hours debating fox hunting between 97 and 04.

And the still made the wrong decision....

We have ourselves to blame for Thatcher but were tricked by Bliar - and it's not just the fighting. Whilst the global economy problem wasn't his and Brown's fault the overspending they did before that would have caused us problems anyway - there would have been a bust eventually just because of the way personal debt was going.

jambalaya - Member
These clever people? They'd be the ones in 'The City' I presume?

Interesting that the failed financial institutions where all non-London RBS, HBOS, Northern Rock, Bradford and Bingley etc

Scottish even. Like the two chancellors that repsided over the bit of a mess that saw us enter the GFC financially naked.

'The City' is more an ideology/tyranny/independent nation state than a geographical location

@digga - I was going to post the Scottish connection but I decided not to be too controversial. I think the point is that they where regional banks trying to "make it big" and over extended themselves. @binners I do think it's relevant that they where not financial institutions from "the city", ie the center of finance in the UK.

Back to the gist of the OP; http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/25/save-the-children-furious-charity-global-legacy-tony-blair

99,700+ votes against Blair so far on the "ASK 'SAVE THE CHILDREN' TO REVOKE THEIR ANNUAL GLOBAL LEGACY AWARD GIVEN TO TONY BLAIR" online petition: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/25/save-the-children-furious-charity-global-legacy-tony-blair <

Despite big banks bringing down the global economy (more of a fault of post Thatcher governments and more particularly Brown), it is actually small to medium sized businesses that are the backbone of this countries economy. And thanks to Thatcher they have been allowed to thrive. Surely one of her legacies has to be normal people suddenly having the ability and opportunity to set up shop themselves and compete on the global stage, and benefit from the fruits of their own labour. The success in the '80's was more about average Joe Bloggs succeeding than pinstripe shirted city share traders. However I realise that ambition and the desire to succeed and improves ones position in life is a trait that appears to be generally frowned upon on this forum.

jambalaya - agreed. But geography isn't really the point. Getting back onto the original subject, these banks (City based or not) were all taking ridiculous risks with other peoples money, then rewarding themselves to truly obscene levels, exploiting a deregulated, wild-west financial market entirely made possible, and positively encouraged by her Ladyship (may she rot in hell!)

Weren't the vast majority of banks in the city bailed out by the US TARP scheme and European equivalent.

I do think it's relevant that they where not financial institutions from "the city", ie the center of finance in the UK.

But you're refering to just UK banks in the context of a global recession. Didn't a lot of the US/International banks that went tits up have a big City presence? eg. Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Lehmans etc.

And I don't think Brown can be accused of casing the recession. It just happend on his watch. I thought the Yanks started it with all that sub-prime malarkey. (though my memory might be faulty)

O/T other than you can't stick that one on Thatcher, but the major de-regualtion of banking that led to the GFC was nuder Gordon Brown's watch. He even admitted as much in 2011: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13032013

Our current situation is not really the result of Blair/Brown or Thatcher's policies really, it's more systemic than that.
The economy grew fast after WW2 because our GDP at the end of that was so low (we were close to broke) - any growth would look high as a %. We also had the demographic bonanza of the baby boomer generation - more people = more work = more earnings = more spending = more GDP.
That came to an end in the 70s.
Thatcher realised this and went for liberalising the markets but that didn't really solve the problem so Blair/Brown kept our living standards increasing by borrowing massively and encouraging consumers into debt. Loose lending standards for mortgages was also part of this game.
Then the inevitable came in 2008.

But the main point here is that it was neither Thatcher or Blair/Brown that caused the crash. This game of liberalisation and debt was being played by all of the Western economies - Europe, USA, Canada, Australia etc.

I know it's comforting to scapegoat leaders or a particular colour of politician but this is so much bigger than party ideology or policy. We simply don't have the ability to keep growing the economy in the way we got used to from 1946 - mid-70's.

The demographic dividend of the baby boomer generation that gave us that growth is now going sharply into reverse as they become dependent on the economy rather than fuelling it. There's not a government policy which can deal with the fundamentals of demography... the harsh choices are either robots/technology to do the jobs or massive immigration, and we all know how well the great British public are responding to that idea...

Looking back, it would've been better for the Tories in 1979 to admit the fundamentals were too weak and managed us into low economic growth. Problem with that of course is that the electorate wouldn't have supported it - we like being rich...

^^^^ what he said good post

there are clever people out there who don't agree with most of the claptrap written by the guardianista's on here!

However I realise that ambition and the desire to succeed and improves ones position in life is a trait that appears to be generally frowned upon on this forum.

Basically she made it ok to be selfish and to think of yourself rather than all of us.

[i]But you're refering to just UK banks in the context of a global recession. Didn't a lot of the US/International banks that went tits up have a big City presence? eg. Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Lehmans etc.

And I don't think Brown can be accused of casing the recession. It just happend on his watch. I thought the Yanks started it with all that sub-prime malarkey. (though my memory might be faulty)[/i]

Shhhhhh....you need to be careful coming out with factual stuff like that! 😐

[i]Basically she made it ok to be selfish and to think of yourself rather than all of us.[/i]

Utter Bollocks! If we were all like you, where would the taxes come to pay for the NHS, schools etc etc. We'd be completely bankrupt! She made the UK more aspirational, because people saw that if they worked hard, they got rewarded and the Country became wealthier as a result......which in turn paid the bills. I'm not talking about the City either.

Binners - you may wish to enhance your analysis by referring to what was the main trigger for the crisis, where this originated and whether this was state or bank-inspired. Then look at how states interfered in the pricing of risk to compensate for past errors by flooding the world with liquidity at a time of artificially low interest rates - sound familiar. Blaming it in bankers solely misses the point by a country mile.

(Consider the origin of RBS's bad loans and Barc for that matter and then who pushed Lloyds into the fatal acquisition that almost killed them?)

Brooess - good point. This is not a case of failed liberalisation, we are in a crisis of leverage- different things. Too much of it and this extends across many different economic and political models.

Re - supply side economics, ironic that the main supply-side proponent now is a French socialist. We could do with a lot more of this over here to address our appalling productivity levels - that's how you improve pay not by silly political gestures. Instead we have the folly of T Hunt spouting BS about independent education. It makes you weep.

Pigeon holing Blair, Regan, Thatcher into ideologies is pretty pointless IMO. Strip away the rhetoric and the lazy reporting and the most consistent trends are that most leaders implement policies that are more likely to be associated with the opposition of the time. Just look at fiscal records here and in the US. Who cuts spending more - Republicans or Democrats?

Thatcher may have a carried a copy of The Road to Serfdom in her handbag, but that is about as far as she got.

If we were all like you, where would the taxes come to pay for the NHS, schools etc etc. We'd be completely bankrupt!

Gawd bless it and you 🙄

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people saw that if they worked hard, they got rewarded and the Country became wealthier as a result

She more than doubled unemployment.

If "the country became wealthier" then all that proves is that you can work less hard and still become wealthier.

Which I suspect isn't true, and is the complete opposite of the point that you are apparently trying to make.

She made the UK more aspirational

By selling them the houses they already lived in and then, through the catastrophic mismanagement of the ERM withdrawl, had the banks charge them 15% interest on the debt they didn't need in the first place. But everybody did get to wear white slip ons for a bit and lemon leShark polo shirts too, so that's good.

By selling them the houses they already lived in

IIRC this was a policy considered by the Labour government before they got voted out in '79.

The point being, that it wasn't either Labour or Tories who created the current mess - neither ideology managed to cover up the fall in our underlying postwar economic growth and neither managed to find an effective and stable way to replace it.

ie: neither ideology actually has a solution. A pragmatic mix of the two, managed by a technocratic government might.

I see you didn't call me out on the slip ons. Guilty as charged.

The point being......

The point being that it was Tory policy to sell off council houses, not Labour policy.

A point which you appear to have missed.

Did the current tenants benefit from buying? Got good discounts right? Good for them/bad for the country?