[Closed] Who wants a go at defending Amber Rudd?

she is not as bad as the previous Home secretary....i have nothing more

She’s not as funny as her brother Paul Rudd.

Defend maybe not but I'm sure there will be plenty offering unpaid overtime to investigate her colleagues.

Is the answer Brexit?

Thanks but no.

Her involvement in business through her father's dodgy dealings have been extensively covered by Private Eye and she has declined to answer all questions.
The attached article summarises but doesn't carry the details uncovered by the Eye.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/05/revealed-amber-rudds-father-was-involved-in-business-she-ran-despite-being-declared-unfit

Could be worse. At least she hasn't touched anyone's knee.

I wish the Met had the balls to disband the diplomatic protection group due to budget cuts.

Yip, I can’t see why the government can’t use public transport like a lot of folk in London..

Yip, I can’t see why the government can’t use public transport like a lot of folk in London..

It's for the public's safety. No one wants an MP touching them up on the 53 to Whitehall.

We moved to Germany from Edinburgh 4 years ago.. still get UK news and TV etc etc. To be honest, there is nothing that would inspire me to go back.

NHS cuts, Police cuts, run down public services...

We do go back to visit my parents and not being there all the time makes a big impression. The UK infrastructure just looked tired, run down, neglected and worn out....

Anything the Govt can control is just squeezed until the last bit of life is wrung from it....

You can’t run a country spending £90bn a year more than you bring in in tax revenue.

@rickmeister why don’t you share with us German income and social security taxes, taxes on utlilities (highest in Europe I believe), VAT on food ... I have no problem spending money once its been raised in taxes. Germany aslo under funds NATO by €30bn a year too although they are having to sort that out albeight slowly

Who wants a go at defending Amber Rudd?

jambalaya - Member

But you knew that already ...

It's for the public's safety. No one wants an MP touching them up on the 53 to Whitehall.

Well played sir.

You can’t run a country spending £90bn a year more than you bring in in tax revenue.

Is that the trumo under funding or the real one?

rickmeister - Member
We moved to Germany from Edinburgh 4 years ago.. still get UK news and TV etc etc. To be honest, there is nothing that would inspire me to go back.

NHS cuts, Police cuts, run down public services...

Headline in the ES this week:

"44 UK towns and cities have air too dangerous to breathe..."

Oh and count the cost of brexit for no gain into that to Jamba

Rick - you are lucky to live in a country that is running a significant budgetary surplus and is able to invest and pay for stella public services. Unfortunately we in the UK are running a trillion and a half pound debt and growing due to a £50bn a year deficit which now looks like its going to increase as we are preparing to drop 'austerity' as a budgetary policy. Pity us yes - we have a severe financial challenge ahead of us against a desperate political and social backdrop.

Not sure I agree about your comment on tired infrastructure. Though we've a very long way to go when I look around the busses on the roads are brand new, the railways stations I use are newly refurbished and modernised, the trains I use are brand new and half the roads are currently closed being upgraded/widened/modernised/improved, there are railway disruptions all the time due to the rail network being upgraded/modernised/expanded/improved. Again, a way to go before we're upto Germany standards, but Germany has been maintaining and continually investing in its infrastructure over the last 50 years and had a blank canvass to work from after the war, so we're playing catch up big time, but heading in the right direction so not in decline at all.

We're a busy and densely populated country so upgrading infrastructure is difficult and disruptive and eye-wateringly expensive. We're in the midst of this, but it's all for the better ultimately.

And the German health system is performing better than the UK's....because it is structured very differently to the NHS - all the more reason for us in the UK open its mind and learn from countries like Germany about how we can run our services more efficiently and effectively.

The notion the UK is a rich country is a con. We are a country that earns the 5th (or 6th now?) highest 'salary', if you think of GDP as a salary, but we're not rich. We're like Jonny Depp - earn a fortune but can easily spend more than we earn and have been doing so for over a century. - We're bordering on broke so not a surprise when compared to Germany who is one of the few countries int he world running a budgetary surplus and genuinely rich, we don't necessarily come out that well.

So let's raise 90bn via taxation then, simple isn't it. Proper inheritance tax, skip tax relief on pensions for higher rate tax pars, make any tax deduction only available at the lowest rate etc.

Put that in a manifesto, win the election, implement the tax rises and then AFTER you have raised the money (or not) see what you have to spend ? Also show another developed country which has such taxation ?

BTW saw my pension advisor yesterday (Osbourne already changed tax relief for higher (45%) rate taxpayers - its virtually zero already) - as I posted before an NHS surgeon or an MP can have a pension worth £2m at zero cost to themselves but a private sector person is prevented from doing so. Anyway my conversation was all about encashing mine in a tax efficient manner as I forsee future governments seeing pension pots as an easy target, between Brown and Osbourne they have already taken a big swipe. Once money is outside I can move it and myself to a more efficient location (eg resident in Portugal). If you did change pensions as you suggest people would just accept a much lower salary in return for a defined benefit pension - so hmrc and exonomy loses. Or the company just moves the better paid jobs elsewhere

People buy different cars in order to save a £100 or £200 on road tax - a small tax change impacting a purchase of £25-30k. If you change tax laws as above behaviour will change dramatically and amount raised will be far less and impact on economy far greater. If it was as easy as you say @Mike Labour would have done it under Brown instead of running up a deficit of £90bn per anum.

But you knew that already ...

Increasingly many of us can’t be bothered. To be honest I am wasting my time here, I was in two minds about posting but its such an easy one. You CANNOT run a country with a budget deficit of the size Labour left us with. Fixing it is very very difficult and we are only halfway to doing so.

Labour ran on an anti-austerity platform at the GE and did much better than expected but still lost.

And the German health system is performing better than the UK's....because it is structured very differently to the NHS - all the more reason for us in the UK open its mind and learn from countries like Germany about how we can run our services more efficiently and effectively.

This.

Jamby:

German income and social security taxes, taxes on utlilities (highest in Europe I believe), VAT on food

Woblinscott: some good points made and its only being here and using the systems that has given a perspective on the UK. Health being one of them. Given NHS is not free (i.e. paid for by general NIC's), I think what I pay in health insurance could be close to the sum of what used to be my annual NIC's... the major difference is that the control is not centred on govt... its properly funded and works.

Generalisms are always dangerous and possibly full of missing details but this is the impression I get...

Now, Amber Rudd you say....

While I'm not exactly unbiased (I work almost wholly within it) the NHS is consistantly ranked as one of the best, if not The Best healthcare system in the developed world.

Which is either a source of some pride, or panic depending on your view, I suppose 😆

as I posted before an NHS surgeon or an MP can have a pension worth £2m at zero cost to themselves

Stop lying. An NHS surgeon will pay into their pension via employees contributions taken out of every pay packet.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/14/nhs-holds-on-to-top-spot-in-healthcare-survey

UK No. 1 and Germany well No.8

Free pensions for NHS 😆

BTW saw my pension advisor yesterday (Osbourne already changed tax relief for higher (45%) rate taxpayers - its virtually zero already) -

To be honest I am wasting my time here

And the German health system is performing better than the UK's....because it is structured very differently to the NHS

Structure? You don't think it has [i]anything[/i] to do with spending?

[img] [/img]
Source: [url= https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS?locations=GB-DE-FR-SE-EU ]WorldBank[/url]

Structure? You don't think it has anything to do with spendng?

I wonder why the spending suddenly started to reduce?

People buy different cars in order to save a £100 or £200 on road tax - a small tax change impacting a purchase of £25-30k.

Didn't the Tories get rid of that helpful CO2 -based rate because it was terribly unfair to people who wanted to by massive phallus cars?

In such a pace you wont feel like a "pantomime villain" for being constantly corrected for your factual inaccuracies.

Hounded.

Imagine of there was a way to avoid being pulled up for being wrong all the time...

HOunded? Robustly challenged and then ridiculed yes.
He posts things that are shown to be untrue and then he repeats it. If we use the common word for someone who does this then we will get banned - the fact it demonstrably true is irrelevant.

He will always get "hounded", this is what happens when folk say things that are not true.
Why he can say things that are not true and we cannot say things that are true is something i dont personally understand.

If we use the common word for someone who does this then we will get banned

Brexiter?

But the NHS came 10th on healthcare outcomes, a category that measures how successful treatment has been – a significant weakness that was also identified in 2014

From the guardian article... Please don't think however, I'm a nhs basher, the people and care provided are superb.

Yes drac we get banned for that clealry, You know what I mean, everyone does, so why pretend.

He is entitled to be pro Brexit he is not entitled to claim things not true like how much we pay ,turkey is joining etc as they are not opinions they are just factual incorrect. See also your an everyone else reaction to the NHS pension claim for another example of the hounding

You know that though but top trolling.

Exits thread.

Yup seen that Rick. Targets for nhs are changing to report outcomes rather pointless ones we have now, hopefully that should see that side improve.

Yes drac we get banned for that clealry, You know what I mean, everyone does, so why pretend.

I genuinely have no idea to be honest.

Which NHS is that report measuring? Only NHS England gets a mention, though the others are managed and operated differently.

I genuinely have no idea to be honest

Probably NHS England Scotroutes.

You can’t run a country spending £90bn a year more than you bring in in tax revenue.

Magic money tree excuse is for shrinking the state. It's their ideology.

They could Q/E the money for infrastructure and services.

We are being sold a pup.

You can’t run a country spending £90bn a year more than you bring in in tax revenue.

but you can find £10bn down the back of the sofa to prop up a minority goverment...

Could be worse. At least she hasn't touched anyone's knee.

She did, but I liked it.

You can’t run a country spending £90bn a year more than you bring in in tax revenue.

the problem is that underinvesting in education has contributed to our productivity gap

underinvesting in the NHS leads to poor health

unnderinvesting in prisons leads to riots & worsening rates of rehabilitation

that all cost more in the long term than the savings in the short term

You can’t run a country spending £90bn a year more than you bring in in tax revenue.

shrug. Japan?

jambalaya - Member

BTW saw my pension advisor yesterday (Osbourne already changed tax relief for higher (45%) rate taxpayers - its virtually zero already) - as I posted before an [b]NHS surgeon[/b] or an MP can have a pension worth £2m at zero cost to themselves but a private sector person is prevented from doing so

I'm not sure you're still reading this thread, A, but this part here- could you explain what you mean?

For the record, a quick text to one of my consultant pals says that you've got this wrong, but often when you post its because of something you've read somewhere- googling for the possible source of it comes up with nothing.

MPs- I think what you've said is correct though.

In Amber Rudd's defence, she must have a pretty good working relationship with Robbie Gibb (formerly editor of BBC's Daily and Sunday Politics show and the Andrew Marr show) who produced the latest Election Debate where Rudd stood in for Maybot...

Not only did the BBC make no mention of any of this:

Or this later hustings where Rudd is thoroughly demolished (BAE and HSBC tied into BBC ??!!??)

Perhaps selective choice in what news is broadcast makes for a good Downing Street director of Communications; could that of helped Robbie Gibb secure his latest role?

Wonder if he'll keep in contact with Andrew Neil, Jo Coburn, Andrew Marr and the rest of the BBC Politics department...

stella public services

Surely that would be a premium German beverage

Another [b]Jambfact[/b]... all NHS Drs whether GPs or Consultants pay for their pensions. Historically Consultants got rather better deals, and were final salary. Us GPs are not. But the amount of employees contribution is eye-watering and the employers contribution is part of a total reimbursement package,to describe it as at zero cost is utterly fake.

What is more, the changes in pension taxation and tax allowance tapers mean that my marginal tax rate on my work every Friday is effectively 62% and the other 38% disappears due to the taxation on pensions annual and lifetime allowances. This is directly a consequence of the [b]current [/b]Government's decisions. This means that lots of us experienced NHS Drs are looking to retire early or go part-time, but I cannot at the moment because the current givernments stance towards the NHS has led to a recruitment crisis even in the leafy shires...

When - as it will - the NHS goes completely titsup - blame them.

You can’t run a country spending £90bn a year more than you bring in in tax revenue.

an NHS surgeon or an MP can have a pension worth £2m at zero cost to themselves

Put that in a manifesto, win the election, implement the tax rises and then AFTER you have raised the money (or not) see what you have to spend ?

Jamaba was referring to the fact that many of the public sector pensions are defined contribution, whereas the private sector ones aren't, and are subject to punitive taxes if their pension pot were to get anywhere near that needed to provide the same as the public sector pension, although the private sector pot would need to actually be higher.

Check out this recent Institute for Fiscal Studies article, which says :

In The Times on Tuesday it was suggested that the pension arrangements of a permanent secretary providing an annual pension of £85,000 a year plus a lump sum of £245,000 were worth £1.8 million. That is based on a calculation in the tax code that is supposed to translate the values of these salary-related pension promises into a single cash number. But if I actually wanted to a buy a pension of this size I would need nearer £3 million.

and

So not only are these pensions immensely valuable, their value is greatly understated in official figures. Those high earners lucky enough to have such gold-plated pensions also get an extraordinarily good deal from the taxman relative to people saving into their own pension pot.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9692

here's another one - how about you stop telling lies? If you've posted before, it'll have been corrected before so you know it's wrong. Repeating a lie doesn't make it true, no matter how gullible you are.

But that's not the point, the point is that if you repeat a lie often enough, then other people start believing it, and then it's as good as the truth 🙁

You can’t run a country spending £90bn a year more than you bring in in tax revenue.

You can actually. How do you think money is created?

Pretty sure they could have successfully increased tax on higher earners (mostly in the City) after deciding to ignore the Brexit vote and committing to increase investment in the more desolate ares of the UK that voted for Brexit.

The desolate areas would think they had a good deal.

The higher earners would also have predominantly thought they had a better deal than Brexit.

Only the xenophobics and rascists would have had an issue, but as everyone knew at the time there were measures available to control immigration more (see Germany) so they could have been placated as well. And pointing out how immigration was needed to support pensions and the welfare state would have placated them even more.

That's what I would have done, although I think I would have gone for a soft Brexit as we clearly do not want closer political union with that lot...

he is not entitled to claim things not true

I have to point out the Sandler thread at this point...

You can actually. How do you think money is created?

Didn't Japan use QE and end up with big inflation?

TBH I think it is by luck that the QE at the moment hasn't caused inflation - money out of thin air ?

[quote=sobriety ]

here's another one - how about you stop telling lies? If you've posted before, it'll have been corrected before so you know it's wrong. Repeating a lie doesn't make it true, no matter how gullible you are

Didn't Japan use QE and end up with big inflation?

TBH I think it is by luck that the QE at the moment hasn't caused inflation - money out of thin air ?

Yes, money is created out of thin air, mostly through fractional reserve banking. Now, it is of course true that a significant increase in money supply risks higher inflation, but the idea that we have to wait for tax revenues before we can spend is laughably absurd.

Jamaba was referring to the fact that many of the public sector pensions are defined contribution,

an NHS surgeon or an MP can have a pension worth £2m at zero cost to themselves

Best of luck convincing folk of that

FWIW pubic sector schemes tend to be defined benefit schemes so you did not even describe them accurately. Double fail

I have to point out the Sandler thread at this point...

IMHO its better to not do cross thread posts

he's likely only repeating the lies he's picked up elsewhere.

Big inflation in Japan? More like deflation.

Surely this thread should be renamed
"Who wants to have ago at defending jambalaya?"
He spouts absolute nonsense and just makes things up as his comments in this thread show yet again.

Jamaba was referring to the fact that many of the public sector pensions are defined contribution,

eh no, he was trying to claim that public sector pensions are zero contribution

an NHS surgeon or an MP can have a pension worth £2m at [b]zero cost to themselves[/b]

Jamaba was

It's like running into a room and shouting "but Jeremy Corbyn" and running off again

Pretty sure MPs have a 13% salary contribution to their final salary pension. The rest is made up by a 27.2% employer contribution from the treasury (that’s the taxpayer). So for every pound contributed by the MP we are contributing over £2. As they increased their salaries due to expenses scandal their contributions have also increased but so has that of the taxpayer, exponentially.

Oh.....and expenses were not pensionable! Talk about robbing Peter to pay Paul. Flag Day - Too many Florence Nightingales not enough Robin Hoods

and throw in a 5 year fixed term contract!! How many people would be happy with that sort of job security 🙂

jambalaya - Member
You can’t run a country spending £90bn a year more than you bring in in tax revenue...

I've had a brilliant idea to cure that.

How about we cut all welfare for the wealthy. No subsidies of any sort for companies. No subsidies for wealthy landowners.

That may not completely fix the problem, but I've had another brilliant idea to cover that.

Any company operating in this country that does not make a profit of a certain % of its capital value or pay tax should be liquidated after its 3rd year. That will make room for leaner more efficient companies that actually pay tax.

And for the icing on the cake, disqualify anyone from acting as a director of a company if they have been a director of a company that has paid no tax for 2 years.

We can call this new policy Austerity for Wealthy.

We could do some asset slashing too. We haven't been using our Death for Everybody on Both Sides weaponry lately, so how about we sell it to North Korea? It looks flaky enough to appeal to them.

A key point on German healthcare. IN the UK we pay less tax than Germany - and that includes our healthcare. Germany you pay more in tax and then pay for your healthcare on top. German healthcare also costs twice as much to manage than the scots NHS ( NHS england management cost are higher due to the internal market nonsense)

TJ we don’t pay less tax than in Germany - add in tax / ni pkus utility bill taxes, vat on food, no zero rated items ...

What the Germans, French and almost everyone esle I can think if do is pay at least some portion of medical bills either “in cash” or via private insurance. If you look at health spending in the uk where we fall short is in what we pay personally. People are selfish, they won’t pay the higher taxes necessary for the health service we want. They need to pay something directly at the point of usage or via insurance - imo.

NHS costs are rising at 4% pa - technology improvements are raising costs not lowering them (as in other industries) and we are living longer and incurring more bills. Something significant has to change

but you can find £10bn down the back of the sofa to prop up ...

@jam bo

£1bn for NI over 3-5 years vs
£90bn pa (so £270bn - £450bn over comparable period)

A 1% NHS payrise costs £4bn pa so £20bn over a 5 year Parliament (saw that quoted somewhere although it seems a bit high thinking about it. Back of evenlope my guess would be £750m pa or £4bn-ish over 5 years)

An ideology of not bankrupting the country with excessive unaffordable spending seems like a good one to me. A no brainer.

jamba yes we do. go check some facts. Total tax take per head of population in Germany as a % of earnings is higher than the UK. Then you pay for your healthcare on top of your taxation

IN germany its around 40% of your earnings in taxation. In the UK its 35% then in Germany you pay for your healthcare on top.

TJ we don’t pay less tax than in Germany

Germany tax as % of GDP = 44.5 % UK = 34.4%

Germany
Gross salary £25,000
After tax £18,923
Tax rate 24.3%

Gross salary £40,000
After tax £27,256
Tax rate 31.8%
Gross salary £100,000
After tax £61,740
Tax rate 38.3%

UK
Gross salary £25,000
After tax £20,279
Tax rate 18.9%

Gross salary £40,000
After tax £30,480
Tax rate 24.8%

Gross salary £100,000
After tax £65,780
Tax rate 34.3%
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/may/27/tax-britons-pay-europe-australia-us

People are selfish, they won’t pay the higher taxes necessary for the health service we want.

i will.

£4bn easy find. What's more useful in the fight against domestic extremism or effects the well being of the majority of the population- funding for policing and the NHS or nuclear missiles we will never use , more so against those currently killing UK citizens

An ideology of not bankrupting the country with excessive unaffordable spending seems like a good one to me. A no brainer.

Not sure if serious or trolling.

A 1% NHS payrise costs £4bn pa so £20bn over a 5 year Parliament (saw that quoted somewhere although it seems a bit high thinking about it. Back of evenlope my guess would be £750m pa or £4bn-ish over 5 years)

In other words, you don't know what you're talking about so you're just making stuff up. Again.

[i]Paul Johnson, director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies think tank, has estimated that every 1% pay rise would cost £500m a year.[/i]