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Apparently the tories are going to launch a consultation on allowing more powerful e-bikes so get your responses in now.
Up to 500w plus maybe allowing throttles
Nothing wrong with electric motorbikes, suitably insured etc.
They aren't bicycles though.
I thought in reality they were 500w. The 250w limit being the average over 30 minutes
Thats the issue isnt it, blurs the line between cycles and powered vehicles. Makes sense from a health and environmental point of view, but without better infrastructure it will just cause conflict with pedestrians as people ride them inappropriately.
Twice the workout? I don't think I could handle that!
If the cut-out speed stays the same, what difference will that make to ebikes climbing off-road? Will they be flinging more stone and mud around like an MX bike?
This is surely a trap?
(But also won’t happen before the election).
My issues with this are that throttle-controlled e-bikes are already a menace in urban areas due to lack of enforcement, it’s not clear who’s asking for this, and as the Guardian has pointed out, 500w bikes won’t be EU legal so will have to be imported from places where quality control is less strict, meaning more battery fires.
saying it could be because ministers want to show the UK can diverge from EU rules,
Hmm, gotta show that there are Brexit bonuses, or could just fuel the "they should pay tax brigade" either way I'm out.
If it's genuinely needed for disabled or cargo vehicles, then fair do's for those categories.
If the cut-out speed stays the same, what difference will that make to ebikes climbing off-road? Will they be flinging more stone and mud around like an MX bike?
The issue there is acceleration that chucks the mud. Not what speed they get up to. We're talking heavier bikes accelerating harder....
500w bikes won’t be EU legal so will have to be imported from places where quality control is less strict, meaning more battery fires.
Is this being touted as a 'Brexit benefit' then? 🙂
Would have thought that the idea of 500W throttle ebikes buzzing legally around our towns would have gone against the usual antibike culture war vibe of the government.
The issue there is acceleration that chucks the mud. Not what speed they get up to. We’re talking heavier bikes accelerating harder….
And obviously it doesn't matter how knobby a tyre you run on the rear, as weight is no problem. But I can't see the benefit in off-road ebikes getting much heavier, as it is already an issue for descending.
The throttle element is also a issue for erosion though, as there is a difference between having to maintain balance while you spin up the pedals, and just opening the taps at the bottom of every climb.
I don't get why the current system needs changing.
eBike
Moped
Motorbike
All have thier own category and legal and safety requirements.
Surely it would make a lot more sense to have a education and awareness campaign about the differences?
It will be quietly welcomed by some on here with chiped mtbs.
It will just make some other people's Iives just a but more crap.
The right wing table bitting bigot wing of the Tory party are desperate to get reelected at any cost.
Better would be a 20mph limit. easily achievable with current equipment and just a software change.
Wouldn't hold up traffic so much then. Win Win.
I don’t get why the current system needs changing.
eBike
Moped
Motorbike
Agreed..
Stick whatever power engine/motor/nuclear reactor in your chassis...just lable/licence/insure as seen fit...
DrP
There would be a cognitive conflict amongst the culture warriors - bike bad : aggressive powerful engine good
Terrible idea and I agree, straining for a brexshit benefit and possibly opening the door for greater control of cyclists.
If there’s a vehicle on the road able to hold a constant 20mph, then the rider should be trained in the rules of the road and insured for third party risk.
Yes I know decent cyclists can go at that speed but most users of what we’re talking about won’t be decent cyclists.
They are already up to 600w legally (Bosch race).
"The 250w limit being the average over 30 minutes"
My understanding there is no definition of "250 max continuous power". It's down to manufacturers intepretation of the law (until it's challenged and a court clarifies it). I think they have intepreted it as meaning on the flat at max cutoff speed (15.5mph) the bike should consume no more than 250w, even if up a long hill the bike could consume more than 250w with no time limit.
It's a guess though, as they keep this intepretation secret.
I think that is why they go to such lengths to stop derestriction, especially on the latest ones like Bosch Smart System.
If the above is true, I guess this law change amounts to an increase in weight / carrying capacity of "ebikes" such as large for cargo delivery quadricycles.
Better would be a 20mph limit. easily achievable with current equipment and just a software change.
Wouldn’t hold up traffic so much then. Win Win.
I disagree - sure for experienced riders in traffic it would be better - but not on segregated cycleways where the speed differential becomes a menace
I think that is why they go to such lengths to stop derestriction, especially on the latest ones like Bosch Smart System
MY bosch powered ebike with the latest motor is simple to derestrict - just a setting in the app
I think that is why they go to such lengths to stop derestriction, especially on the latest ones like Bosch Smart System
MY bosch powered ebike with the latest motor is simple to derestrict - just a setting in the app
It's just so PC plod doesn't have to chase Surrons which they can't catch anyway.
Wouldn’t hold up traffic so much
Round my way its other traffic that holds up traffic. Not bikes or ebikes.
I'd happily have less power in my ebike, but would like a slightly higher cut-off point; 20mph would be fine.
(Orbea Rise btw).
MY bosch powered ebike with the latest motor is simple to derestrict – just a setting in the app
What motor / app is it? Where is this setting?? I have the Bosch Flow app, there is no such setting in there.
I agree that a 20mph limit for e-bikes would be better on road, the problem is that, by and large, it’s too fast for most shared use paths.
I agree that a 20mph limit for e-bikes would be better on road, the problem is that, by and large, it’s too fast for most shared use paths.
But you don't have to go everywhere flat-out. Fairly easy to go 20mph+ on the gravel bike on smooth, shared-user routes. Probably best to leave things how they are but enforce current (sorry) rules properly. I do think there is a place for faster, one-person electric transportation... probably could be placed under moped regulations? (basic licence, registration, insurance, lights, etc).
My understanding there is no definition of “250 max continuous power”. It’s down to manufacturers intepretation of the law (until it’s challenged and a court clarifies it). I think they have intepreted it as meaning on the flat at max cutoff speed (15.5mph) the bike should consume no more than 250w, even if up a long hill the bike could consume more than 250w with no time limit.
If you look at the maths simplistically then
250W @ 60RPM is 40Nm
Most E-bikes work by some sort of multiplier on the torque the rider puts in, which is give or take a bit, concentrated around half the pedal cycle (the bit between 45 and 135deg after TDC), they don't give you an added kick over TDC when torque is ~0. So ~80Nm which is what the "full fat" e-bikes have is probably not that far off 250W averaged over the pedal cycle. Obviously you can pedal quicker, but then maybe the machine gives less assistance, and bear in mind your own legs torque drops off with increasing RPM too.
I doubt there's much gaming of the system going on in that case, and instantaneous peak of 500-750W at 90deg after TDC would sit within any sensible persons interpretation of "average" as it would appear to be done over a single pedal revolution.
Unless they're being equally cheeky about the torque figures, but I doubt is as that's car park bragging rights, if it was 85Nm average over a revolution and 200Nm peak, they'd be putting 200 on the marketing fluff.
It’s just so PC plod doesn’t have to chase Surrons which they can’t catch anyway.
Highly likely. It's why they're the favoured mode of transport of the scally.
What motor / app is it? Where is this setting?? I have the Bosch Flow app, there is no such setting in there.
the latest cx performance line motoir and in the flow app in customise settings you can change the speed limits. I haven't actually tried -maybe you can only lower them? I'll go and have a play with it
Edit - you are correct - you can only lower the limits not raise them. My mistake
stanley
Full Member
I’d happily have less power in my ebike, but would like a slightly higher cut-off point; 20mph would be fine.(Orbea Rise btw).
This can be done quite easily with the ep8 motor, and there is a way to do it without effecting warrenty. Ive had the limiter removed on my ep801 after i found it unrideable on roads and bridlesways transitioning between decents.
I don't even want an e-bike. Old fashioned 'push' bikes do me.
It would mean that ebikers would be even fitter than they are now ;o)
Even if this goes through it will make the square root of f all difference.
The Sur-ron riders still won't be legal...
The deliveroo riders will still be strapping all sorts of ebay sourced dodgyness to their bikes...
e-MTBers will still buy EU compliant eMTBs (and some will derestrict them)...
Big manufacturers will in general only make EU compliant bikes - just like the pint wine bottles, we're not a big enough market.
There might be a few more 500W cheap and nasty twist to go ebikes around but you can buy those from ebay now!
Are ebikes in the USA not allowed up to 1000W? his looks like an aligning with the US not the EU to me
I thought it was 750W in the USA.
It’s just so PC plod doesn’t have to chase Surrons which they can’t catch anyway.
Highly likely. It’s why they’re the favoured mode of transport of the scally.
Surron's are way more than 500w, so they'll not be suddenly legal.
Be wary... aligning regs with USA... and then banning and allowing more enforcement of said ban to keep all ebikes off land owned by the big interests is a possible end point of this.
The power shouldn't be limited, just the speed. I haven't done the sums, but if 1000w is what it takes to assist an unfit 25 stone commuter up the (lets say 1 in 5?) hills of their home town, reliably and safely, to a speed which isn't a liability in traffic, that setup should fit into the regs somewhere.
So ~80Nm which is what the “full fat” e-bikes have is probably not that far off 250W averaged over the pedal cycle
They'll put out 700W for a substantial amount of time. I hired an ebike (Whyte with a Bosch motor and ~600Wh battery) after lunch last time I was at Glenlivet and drained the battery in 1:40. It was down on power towards the top of the main climb on the red route but still giving substantial assistance, much more than 250W.
They are already up to 600w legally (Bosch race).
“The 250w limit being the average over 30 minutes”
My understanding there is no definition of “250 max continuous power”. It’s down to manufacturers intepretation of the law
They're already higher than that. That power is specified at 70rpm. Spinning at 90rpm gives a noticeable boost. The testing spec is part of en-15194 but it appears it was written in such a way to effectively not a have a power limit. Limiting the power drawn from the battery would have been far simpler if the intention was to limit power.
I have a converted On One 29er with a 750w Tongsheng TSDZ2 motor & throttle and a Haibike with a Bosch CX motor.
The On One is a joy to ride in traffic as it'll assist you up to around 28-30mph. That's the kind of speed you need to hold in 30mph limits.
It's also nice to descend on swoopy trails where it doesn't constantly cut out at 15mph like the Haibike does.
The Bosch feels slightly more powerful on climbs than the TSDZ2. It clearly peaks at similar wattage to the bolt-on motor. Whatever the figures say.
I thought it was 750W in the USA.
I think it's 750w in the federal definition & 20mph. But states all have their own laws & several have 1000w limits and speed limits vary from 20-30mph.
The power shouldn’t be limited, just the speed.
The issue here is then chipped bikes being able to both hold much higher speeds and tear up more trails like an mx bike.
It feels very 'rearranging the deckchairs' to me, for no gain.
The gain could be a clarity and education about things as they currently stand.
Cycling UK opposing ( https://www.cyclinguk.org/news/statement-proposed-changes-e-cycle-regulations) and so are Wheels for Wellbeing ( https://wheelsforwellbeing.org.uk/e-cycle-250w-to-500w-max-power-change-proposal-position-statement/).
Better would be a 20mph limit. easily achievable with current equipment and just a software change.
Meanwhile, someone on a pedal-powered mountain bike goes hammering past on a downhill at somewhere north of 35mph…
I’ve overtaken a Fiesta at the bottom of my road at 35mph, and clocked 42mph on a singlespeed on a steep downhill.