You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Folks, we need your help.
I know that almost all of you will have great memories of a residential trip to an outdoor centre.
I know for me that a combination of a week away and a couple of teachers who ran a sailing club, using the same outdoor centre, meant I literally took a different path in life. They introduced me to the outdoors, nature, adventure and a different way of life from what I experienced at home.
Outdoor centres run on a shoestring at the best of times.
As we come to the end of Furlough, we are looking at many centres closing. In Scotland, we estimate this to be 50% by Christmas. Many have closed already, including my old employer.
The issue here is not the loss of employment, that's going to happen and every industry wants help to employ folk.
Our issue is the buildings and facilities. Once they are lost, they will be snapped up for housing or hotels. The finances then just don't add up.
I think the loss here is to your children's education, particularly those who struggle to afford trips away. We are starting to put pressure on government to see these outdoor education centres as a national resource, and that to invest in a 'mothballing' scheme of some kind will repay in the future massively.
Please can you contact you MP / MSP / Senydd Members and tell them of the issue.
Will you also post up on social media, sharing your experience at one of these centres and asking for others to do the same.
In Scotland - read what has been sent to our Education Minister
https://nnolscotland.blogspot.com/2020/09/concern-over-future-of-outdoor.html
In England and Wales - https://www.outdoor-learning.org/News/Latest-News/residential-outdoor-centres-update-1
The picture on the NNOL page was taken at Abernethy Ardeonaig, a centre now closed permanently because of the impact of Covid. No one will ever sail out on the Gig to explore secret beaches and waterfalls, deserted villages or wild forests.
The Big Bike Bash raises money every year for UK Youth with the proviso that they spend it at Avon Tyrrell where the event is hosted. Great place to visit at any time of the year. Amazing value compared to the other New Forest camp sites too. It seems determined not to let people know about it which frustrates the life out of me.
There’s also a petition to allow residential trips again.
The centre I’ve worked in for 20 years is going to close because of this and I’m out of the industry I love.
So sorry to hear of Abernethy Ardeonaig 🙁
I think sadly you are right about most outdoor centres being on a knife edge anyway - the number of they that I have walked into as a teacher with a group of kid in once grand old houses just about still standing is stark. Even bigger organisations like Outward Bound.
My new employer is at the privileged end of the education/ outdoor education market - it would be a huge issue if that is all that is left. The outdoors is and should remain a great leveller.
I have stayed at Ardeonaig with school groups, and it is a pity it is closed. I sadly can't see how schools can make large scale use of such facilities anymore. Even pre covid the pressure NOT to run trips and excursions was great, and the pressure to "Reduce the cost of the school day" is leading to youngsters entering an experiential desert. It is true that we need to level things up for the most deprived in society, but this should not be achieved by depriving everybody of all opportunities.
My personal view in Scotland is that we should get Scottish government to value centres as a national education resource - and fund them free at point of use... Back to the 1970's I know, but would be so beneficial to so many who need it most.
Real shame, I did loads of courses at Plas y Brenin and Glenmore Lodge back in the 90s getting my mountaineering qualifications...
All the ones I know of round South Wales are run by Parkwood Outdoors and under contract to the council's. Don't know if they will stay open or not but the one by Pontsticill Reservoir has been busy ever since restrictions were eased.
Personally my annual school trip to one every summer was hell, not because I hated the outdoors but due to bullying at school. Still hasn't stopped me loving the outdoors so would love to see other kids from cities to get the opportunity to discover that.
Couldn’t agree more Matt, and yes it’s about the kids. Will write to my MSP, MP and the Scottish education secretary.
I spent time sailing and later volunteering as a bosun the OYC on Taiko. These resources are invaluable in building resilience in children.
Yes Matt! The trick would be to ensure it is an entitlement for kids in the BGE, once in Primary and once in Secondary. By the time the Senior Phase is upon them there just isn't the curricular space.
We need to fund these properly and support. I went to Lochgoilhead first off and it left an indelible love of the outdoors. For kids with less options this sort of experience can be the difference between life and death and I’ve mentored dozens in outdoor skills who could easily have been well off the rails. If I had pots of cash I’d buy them all and make them a compulsory school experience.
By the time the Senior Phase is upon them there just isn’t the curricular space.
I've a plan for that... Until I've found the funder though, its shhhhh.
The issue here guys is specifically residential centres. Staying overnight is currently banned, and there's not a plan or timescale to restart.
As I've said, and my view varies as I'm not the one whose job had evaporated, the issue long term is the buildings and facilities. When they are gone, they are gone.
We've got to find a way of still being here when cv19 is behind us. Children's education will be poorer without this experience.
An honest question - we have Glenmore Lodge and Plas y Brenin both publicly funded, but they seem (and I’m well prepared to be wrong on this) to cater more towards the white middle classes than more inclusion or for kids groups.
Obviously you have to have places to train the trainers, but is the balance right?
If I had pots of cash I’d buy them all and make them a compulsory school experience
Here is the daft thing - in Scotland they pretty much are. Yet they are up to individual parents to pay, not centrally funded and valued.
Too late for North Lanarkshire kids.
Kilbowie is shut for good. Nowt to do with COVID..
Council budget cuts..
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/kilbowie-outdoor-centre-set-demolished-22385810
@oldtennishoes - you've a good point. Ethnic minorities and low income people are massively underrepresented in the outdoors.
At work we've a huge project just getting going focusing on outdoor recreation and nature engagement with disadvantaged and ethic minority groups. Currently a £250k pilot for a £3-6m project.
PyB and Glenmore do stand out as 'different' in the current situation.
Sad days.
I went to Ardoneaig as an apprentice for a week of outdoors stuff (IIRC it was Christian run in those days?) and it was awesome, sad to see it go.
Mate of mine does all the outdoor training for North Ayrshire, there is an amazing outdoor centre in Lamlash on Arran, but due to teachers not doing the instructor courses (for various reasons, not blaming teachers at all!) they end up going to a fully run unit at Loch Eil instead.
I did a week in Glasbury in Yr 10 (walking, rock climbing, pony trekking, camping, canoeing), it changed my life forever. It was better than the skiing trips we couldn't afford. These places are vitally important like the Battle of Kinder Scout.
My personal view in Scotland is that we should get Scottish government to value centres as a national education resource – and fund them free at point of use… Back to the 1970’s I know, but would be so beneficial to so many who need it most.
I wrote to the Cabinet Secretary before Covid suggesting pretty much this. I guess we need to be aware that some have been so badly invested in for decades that they may still not be viable in this setting. (PM me if you want a copy of his response - it may give you some hooks for follow up).
Even pre covid the pressure NOT to run trips and excursions was great, and the pressure to “Reduce the cost of the school day” is leading to youngsters entering an experiential desert.
Interestingly - that wasn't my observation (in a different part of the country). There's plenty of trips/excursions being run, to ever more elaborate locations in the secondary school. There's also at primary level plenty of bog-standard outdoor ed type trips -- but intriguingly many are outside Scotland, most are at private rather than LA run centres, and from what I can see they have worked out how to make it very easy for the teachers that bring them. Its 20 years since I last tried to book anything with a youth group at a LA outdoor centre, but they certainly lacked customer service skills back then! Of course private centres are probably being run by less experienced, and almost certainly worse paid staff.
As I’ve said, and my view varies as I’m not the one whose job had evaporated, the issue long term is the buildings and facilities. When they are gone, they are gone.
I'm inclined to agree. But don't rule out the possibility of a vanity project for some new shiny building developed to 21st century standards...
By the time the Senior Phase is upon them there just isn’t the curricular space.
I think that depends how you manage the timetable and how creative you are with the activities. I suspect there is a way to weave almost any subject into something that can be run in an outdoor setting if you really want to be creative. In reality as everyone who has ever been fined for taking their kids out school says "1 week wont matter". In fact, it will cause less disruption because the "whole class" rather than a few individuals can be missing. And I'm fairly certain, from my own observations of young people learning this way, that they are likely to be better learners when they return so it may be worth considering it an investment in attention/behaviour/maturity/cooperation.
Not an outdoor centre, but Notts CC used to have an outdoor ed dept, every summer they'd truck large camps up to Ullswater for several schools to use in the last weeks of term. The first one got me hooked on the outdoors, and went back most years inc when at uni to give them an extra pair of hands.
An honest question – we have Glenmore Lodge and Plas y Brenin both publicly funded, but they seem (and I’m well prepared to be wrong on this) to cater more towards the white middle classes than more inclusion or for kids groups.
Obviously you have to have places to train the trainers, but is the balance right?
They mainly run qualifictaion courses, training trainers. Their job is to set and maintain standards. They're in a slightly different market to your average outdoor experience centre for school groups, where the idea is to provide a safe outdoor experience, rather than instruct a syllabus.
The reason you end up with a mainly white middle class client is that outdoor pursuits is a mainly white middle class activity, so that's where most of the candidates for the inctructors come from. Plus the pay, working as a outdoor instructor, is appauling, so most people (eg myself) just did it as a hobby. I taught mountaineerig for free to students in my holidays, just for fun.
Your only chance of getting a living wage out of guiding is to become a UIAGM guide (or was when I last looked at it). I was far too crap to achieve that....
Yes went to Tirabed (could be spelt wrong) in Wales several times. Great times with a 1st taste of independence from parents and did some brilliant activities. Will never forget mountain biking on a really hot day and my friend and I coming down with full on sun stroke afterwards.
Yes I have used the Low Port centre in Lithgae and the Loch Insh centre with groups from work. I also stayed at the aptly named Skates house near Cumnock when I was in P7 which was sometime in dark ages.Post saved to read and respond properly later.
Back to the 1970’s I know, but would be so beneficial to so many who need it most.
Yep. Back then when I was at school Durham County Council/Education dept or whatever had an interest in 2 outdoor centres in the Lakes, Howtown & Thurston.
Think I did 3 or 4 courses with them, it was brilliant! Health & Safety would've have a dicky fit back then.
Yes I have used the Low Port centre in Lithgae and the Loch Insh centre with groups from work. I also stayed at the aptly named Skates house near Cumnock when I was in P7 which was sometime in dark ages.Post saved to read and respond properly later.
Glaisnock and Kaimes were the 2 outdoor centres near cumnock, never heard of Skares house? (Assume you meant skares, as in the wee village of said name).
There are 60 residential centres left in Scotland serving schools, it was 64 last year.
32 say they will close by Christmas without help.
Decimation.
Questions at FMQ's tomorrow.
I think it depends on the school staff how much outdoor ed is done,we offer DoE for everybody and are using the princes trust this year to focus on the outdoors, but if you don't have staff qualified or interested then there is an extra layer added to organisation. There is no doubt that it is harder to convince kids to participate as well, which is a shame as the value for the participants is huge. I think that reluctance may have been an issue that covid has brought to a head with outdoor centres chasing a shrinking market anyway.
you’ve a good point. Ethnic minorities and low income people are massively underrepresented in the outdoors.
Depending where you want to put low/middle income the issue is people who live in low/middle income in cities. Not that there are not low income people in the countryside but they are there already and ethnic minorities statistically tend to be in bigger cities.
Camberly is one exception I can think of with lots of ex-Ghurkas
I used to work at an outdoors/field trip centre (as opposed for for the centre) 3 decades ago and stuff like sailing is pointless to many ... they don't have anywhere to keep a canoe, let alone a dingy even if they got given one.
There is no doubt that it is harder to convince kids to participate as well, which is a shame as the value for the participants is huge. I think that reluctance may have been an issue that covid has brought to a head with outdoor centres chasing a shrinking market anyway.
Is it? I'm not convinced that is true. I have no data to say you are wrong but my instinct says that there's still plenty of demand from outdoor activities/education if there is affordable provision available.
I used to work at an outdoors/field trip centre (as opposed for for the centre) 3 decades ago and stuff like sailing is pointless to many … they don’t have anywhere to keep a canoe, let alone a dingy even if they got given one.
How many of the children did you speak to to arrive at this conclusion? I grew up in inner city Glasgow with nowhere to store a boat, no realistic way to transport it, and parents that didn't sail. I can't say it ever crossed my mind that sailing or canoeing were pointless because I couldn't do them from home - quite the opposite, thats why outdoor centres were great fun, because I could do activities I wouldn't normally do. I don't recall any of my cohort ever saying anything like this either, nor did people rush back from outdoor centres to buy climbing harnesses or skis which were much easier to store. When I was there most kids didn't even have decent waterproofs or walking boots. Clearly there are groups/clubs who can provide access to kit/storage if that was the only barrier; certainly many of them suffer from the same biases but closing outdoor centres will only reinforce the issue that outdoor pursuits are a thing for the middle classes.
How many of the children did you speak to to arrive at this conclusion? I grew up in inner city Glasgow with nowhere to store a boat, no realistic way to transport it, and parents that didn’t sail. I can’t say it ever crossed my mind that sailing or canoeing were pointless because I couldn’t do them from home – quite the opposite, thats why outdoor centres were great fun, because I could do activities I wouldn’t normally do. I don’t recall any of my cohort ever saying anything like this either
It must have been a huge challenge fitting the dingy in the lift with the pony to get it to the 15th floor.
quite the opposite, thats why outdoor centres were great fun, because I could do activities I wouldn’t normally do. I don’t recall any of my cohort ever saying anything like this either, nor did people rush back from outdoor centres to buy climbing harnesses or skis which were much easier to store
So after doing this you went home and your parent's said "yeah sure we can fit a boat in your bedroom if you and your brother sleep on the sofa?"
Clearly there are groups/clubs who can provide access to kit/storage if that was the only barrier; certainly many of them suffer from the same biases but closing outdoor centres will only reinforce the issue that outdoor pursuits are a thing for the middle classes.
I'm not advocating closing them, I'm pointing out that for people who live in inner city tower blocks it's just a one off. It might as well be sending them to learn dressage ... or teaching them recipes for left over venison.
It may be just a one off but I beleive you're missing the point...It's not that they will suddenly take up an outdoor pursuit, asking to keep a kayak in the flat - hopefully they will in the future.
No, the main benefit is it opens their (city dwelling youths) eyes and broadens their horizons to what's out there, what's soul-enhancing, whats important and most importantly what they are capable of achieving. Something beyond xboxs, mobiles and gang-aping behavior. I've done summer jobs aged 19/20 and seen the wonderment and confidence in their eyes as the week goes on.
My mate runs centers in the midlands and I'm really concerned, both for his job and the removal of this opportunity from kids who just won't be given the chance otherwise.
It may be just a one off but I beleive you’re missing the point…It’s not that they will suddenly take up an outdoor pursuit, asking to keep a kayak in the flat – hopefully they will in the future.
I think my point is that outdoors centres need to be more than a one-off and made accessible.
My centre has a waiting list of new schools wishing to visit.
All the existing schools have been coming for many years on repeat.
The size of each school group has been rising, on average, for the last few years.
All the schools that have missed their trips since March have been in touch to try to rearrange their trips if possible.
There isn’t a shrinking demand for what we provide.
We’re still closing though because there is no money being generated.
I think my point is that outdoors centres need to be more than a one-off and made accessible.
This.
So after doing this you went home and your parent’s said “yeah sure we can fit a boat in your bedroom if you and your brother sleep on the sofa?”
No, we couldn’t afford a boat even if we had somewhere to store it, you aren’t making your point particularly clear. It was the same era I was going to outdoor centres that you were working there. I don’t recall anyone saying no point having fun this week as we will never be able to do it again - in fact quite the opposite. All our outdoor trips were run outside the curriculum at weekends in teachers etc own time.
I’m not advocating closing them, I’m pointing out that for people who live in inner city tower blocks it’s just a one off. It might as well be sending them to learn dressage … or teaching them recipes for left over venison.
I still don’t get your point. I don’t accept that it’s necessarily just a one off, but even if it was, does that mean we should just exclude them from trying new things until they move to a suitable address? Of the outdoor centre classmates I’m still vaguely In touch with about 1/2 are actively involved in the outdoors either as work, volunteer coaches, or regularly participating multiple times a year. Just as well Strathclyde Regional Council we’re not dismissive that we’d never be able to store a boat or kayak so shouldn’t bother.
I used to work at an outdoors/field trip centre (as opposed for for the centre) 3 decades ago and stuff like sailing is pointless to many … they don’t have anywhere to keep a canoe, let alone a dingy even if they got given one.
It's not about having stuff, it's about creating a desire to be active outdoors, and all the advantages that go with it, I'm sure you know that.
Our local sailing club has very few owned boats, its all club boats, And the it's in one of the most deprived councils in Scotland too. I'm sure a lot of members had the seed planted on a school trip.
Some good news in Scotland
https://www.gov.scot/news/help-for-residential-outdoor-education-centres/
Thought this was going to involve something like hiding in Go Outdoors overnight as some people have done at Ikea, is disappointed.
Loss of outdoor centres is very concerning. They are a route into the countryside. Loosing them means we are loosing one of the ways to increase accessibility of the natural environment. Loosing one of the ways to reduce barriers to participation in sport / recreation.
The Glover Report into National Parks and AONBs recommended every child gets the chance to spend a night under the stars - that's going to need outdoor centres to realise.
There is a body of research now that proves the benefits of time in the outdoors. Natural England do some good briefing papers - from the Natural Connections Demonstration Project.
If you want something a bit less dry policy focus - The Natural Health Service is a really good read. It focuses more on mental health but goes through the benefits of time outdoors in a considered way.