which is healthier (or less unhealthy) butter, margarine or mayonaise

Butter, purely for the taste, no idea whether it would be considered the healthier option or not.

Butter is healthier, more so if grass fed butter such as kerrygold rather than grain fed butter, obviously, margarine is ultra processed shite and light mayonnaise is not far behind

Butter, purely for the taste, no idea whether it would be considered the healthier option or not.

Or bacon grease. If you don't have any bacon grease handy, fry some salt in lard then spread that on your bread.

TBH I don't use spread if I'm adding a sauce/mayo/salad cream, or pickle. You can't taste it so whats the point. 

Butter for bread on its own or toast though, every day of the week!

^^^ what he said. Healthy is good, but if you don't enjoy your food...

Nothing expert but you can't really buy margarine in UK supermarkets, things like flora are classed as spreads you won't see the word margarine on the packaging - go to your fridge and look if you don't believe me! I suppose it's a bit like calling a vacuum cleaner a Hoover, except margarine isn't a brand name more a specific product.

Spreads can vary greatly in content so some might be better for you some much much worse.

Hmm I am not an expert but...

...of those options I'd consider Butter as best - it's potentially the least processed hence better. But it's not healthy due to the large amount of saturated fat and hence high calorie content.

A life without butter, is no life at all

A good rule of thumb, look on the ingredient list, the more ingredients it's got, or the more ingredients that you don't recognise then the less healthy it is.

Ok, but say if you wanted Dairy/Animal product free? what would you go for?

I've been using Vitalite dairy free, it does have some additions that would need googling

Mayonnaise, home made, is delicious, amazing, life-enhancing stuff. Put it on boiled new potatoes, or steak, or if you don't mind incurring the wrath of Suella, tofu (*).

And it's basically just olive oil (or whatever oil you choose to make it from). So it must be amazingly healthy.

Not sure about factory mayo - it's probably wildly unhealthy.

(*) I've never actually tried this last combination.

Ok, but say if you wanted Dairy/Animal product free? what would you go for?

You normally use egg white as the emulsifier for making mayonnaise, but garlic also works. You just need a *lot* more of it. But it's then just oil, garlic, mustard (also an emulsifier), a bit of vinegar, salt, pepper.

sorry @oldnpastit i meant specifically instead of butter

I do use the heinz vegan mayo and just looked up the ingredients, basically mayo without egg, also last time i bought it in store, it was cheaper..

but being as its 3/4 vegetable oil might still not be that great for you, probably no worse than any other plant based spread i guess

This is a "depends" answer.  Choose your poison.  Pros and cons to each of them

Real butter, you don't need much. Or a drizzle of virgin olive oil?

Or if the sammich contents are self lubricating, like bacon fat, or im using a mustard or sauce or something, then nothing.

For me it's more about not having the bread too dry, so if the sammich ingredients achieve that without butter then I don't use it.

Margarine is horrible stuff, it shouldn't be allowed to be classed as food.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/butter-vs-margarine

One area I am still confused over is which is the best thing to use for spreading on bread in a sandwich?

I think the right time to consider each of those options is when the rest of your diet is so perfect that no further improvements can be made and you're onto making the teeny edge case changes to your diet. I put mayo*on my sandwich, I've yet to be convinced that [hand wavey] teaspoon[/hand wavey] or so I consume daily is going to significantly affect my health either way.

*I'm pretty sure that's equally true of butter or marg.

Butter. But I'll also add butter when I'm adding mayo too such as in a cheese pickle ham and mayo sarnie.

I'm also someone who has butter then clotted cream then jam on a cream tea scone 😋

As for spears or 'light' versions I'd rather just used less if the real stuff if I felt I had to.

Personally, I usually have real butter, buttery spread and a cholesterol lowering spread all on the go at the same time.

Hedging my bets I suppose, but I also think it's a sensible approach.

Butter. But I'll also add butter when I'm adding mayo too such as in a cheese pickle ham and mayo sarnie.

I'm also someone who has butter then clotted cream then jam on a cream tea scone 😋

As for spreads or 'light' versions I'd rather just used less if the real stuff if I felt I had to.

mucky fat on white bread, pure heaven.

Ok, but say if you wanted Dairy/Animal product free?

Then you are most likely into a world of UPF so not healthy by default.

Butter would be 'purest', Mayo can be good if you choose the right one, i.e. Hunter & Gather or make your own, margarine type products probably should not be legal to sell...

Waiting for my baguette to be made at the refectory in the college I worked at, the lady always used to holler 'do you want spread?'

'no thanks, I'm fine standing'... Is what I always used to reply in my head.

But yes, I indeed opted for 'spread' which is very non-specific. These days I have Olive spread and butter at weekends when I'm letting myself go 😊

If it's with marmite, butter's the only option.

Peanut butter though, at least the 'pure' variations, can work well with a bit of olive oil drizzled on toast.

Also home-baked bread / sourdough, etc - just some olive oil, maybe a bit of the chunkier sea salt sprinkled on. Yum

We use Naturli at home for the vegan contingent. Expensive and probably full of shit but it tastes as good as fake butter can and doesn't make the toast soggy.

https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/naturli-organic-vegan-spreadable/469362-778168-778169

Edit: Not too bad actually but appreciate it's still processed.

Rapeseed Oil* (39%), Water, Coconut Oil* (22%), Shea Butter Oil* (13%), ALMOND* (2%), Salt, Emulsifier (Lecithin*), Carrot Juice*, Lemon Juice*, Natural Flavouring, *Organic

And once you’ve had Guernsey butter everything else becomes a compromise!

Flora is palm oil, which is reason enough to eat butter.

Flora is palm oil, which is reason enough to eat butter.

You might need to go and fact check yourself.

I'd say butter as it's the most natural but as with anything just not too much.

Nothing expert but you can’t really buy margarine in UK supermarkets

Correct.

You can, but what we refer to as 'margarine' generally isn't. Real margarine is nasty stuff.

the more ingredients that you don’t recognise then the less healthy it is.

Abject nonsense.

Abject nonsense.

How so? Surely something made from one or two natural ingredients and minimal processing is better for you than something ultra processed and full of a dozen or more e numbers?

Proper margarine. You won’t like it and will use far less than if you’d bought some nice butter. The marge will therefore be less unhealthy and save money as it sits unused in the fridge.

the more ingredients that you don’t recognise then the less healthy it is.

Abject nonsense.

First statement - correct.
Second statement - abject nonsense.

Beef dripping clearly.

None. Seriously. Give it up and see how you get on. Have used it VERY sparingly but most bread and bun products are now consumed sans grease. Just jam on toast for breakfast. I do like peanut butter though.

Butter has the same caloric content as adipose tissue (7000 Kcal/kg).

Grass fed butter, or if you want veggie, Olive oil or houmous

Lurpack spreadable in our house. Butter, water, rapeseed oil.

Or bacon grease. If you don’t have any bacon grease handy, fry some salt in lard then spread that on your bread.

I have some particularly lovely pork dripping from last weekend's roast. Yum.

Anyway, butter, simply because it's natural and very, very tasty. I do like mayonnaise for salad sandwiches.

Ok, but say if you wanted Dairy/Animal product free?

Olive oil. Think classic Spanish Tostada..

Basically lightly toasted bread, olive oil, chopped tomato and a sprinkle of your choice of herbs.

https://andaluciainmypocket.com/how-to-make-spanish-tostada-the-typical-spanish-breakfast/

wildcard - coconut oil.

but generally nothing as TiRed. it's just lube. you don't even need it for marmite, in fact it waters down marmite.

From my recent understanding and without any citation:

butter - saturated fats aren’t as bad as we have been led to believe. Butter is full of fat soluble vitamins. Butter is good.

marg - vegetable oils are inflammatory and should not be consumed. Poly unsaturated fat, with the double, single hydrogen bonds break down easily and react within the body

low fat diets are a nonsense and we can’t absorb fat soluble vitamins without fat.

Sugar is evil

How so? Surely something made from one or two natural ingredients and minimal processing is better for you than something ultra processed and full of a dozen or more e numbers?

That's not what they said. They said "ingredients that you don’t recognise." Things don't suddenly become more unhealthy because you don't understand them.

This is the "chemicals" argument and it's woolly-headed. If we don't recognise what we're eating and we care sufficiently to be concerned then why not go look it up rather than promoting ignorance as a badge of honour. E300 is Vitamin C. I had something the other day that was full of something called "aqua," I'm almost certainly going to die.

Nutrition advice changes more often than my underpants and the bottom line is that a smear of butter/lard/margarine/buttery spread/semen/mayo/ on your toast isn't going to make a fig of difference in the grand scheme of things regardless of how many long words it has on the back of the pack. If you're eating it by the pound or are existing on a diet of crisps, cake and leaded coke whilst sitting on your arse all day on the other hand...

@del

but generally nothing as TiRed. it’s just lube. you don’t even need it for marmite, in fact it waters down marmite.

Pervert. You're not using enough Marmite.

As for peanut butter, I like to go bread - butter - PB - more butter. And if the PB is the freshly squeezed stuff so not salted, then a sprinkling of salt on top as well. Tremendous.

Butter  with statin chaser 

Pervert. You’re not using enough Marmite

Well. I'm told I should not direct insults towards individuals, but to be perfectly frank Luke if your marmite needs to be increased because you prefer a lube to thin it's intensity I put it to you that your marmite is best consumed whilst wearing red trousers. You cockwomble. What say you to that?

Real margarine is nasty stuff.<br /><br />

You’re right, it is. It’s what my mum used to buy when I was a nipper. Disgusting stuff, I only use butter on sarnies or for cooking.

I do buy Tesco’s Extra Mature Cheddar, which has 30% less fat, so I’m being careful…

A particularly flavourful cheese, too. Plus I get Tesco Club points, what’s not to like? 😁

A smear of L'Escoure butter - on bread - is very splendid.

I dont really eat butter or marg, mainly because I hardly ever buy a loaf of bread. Closest thing is a pizza about once a month.

If I do buy bread, its for a sandwich on ham/cheese and i prefer to use a cheese spread in place of the butter/marg'.

existing on a diet of crisps, cake and leaded coke whilst sitting on your arse all day on the other hand

Have you been spying on me again?

As good a reason as any to give this another listen

Have the butter - drop sugar.

Butter being from milk and therefore natural....well, yes I kind of get it.

But once you've not done it for a while so that normality by repetition thing is broken, it's kind of weird. Suckling on the teat of a lactating ruminant.... actually, alter that.....juicing a lactating ruminant, warming it up then cooling it down slowly so it goes a bit funky and splits and churning up the thick bits. That's a bit messed up. I guess it's not as weird as cheese.

Still, if you don't have much affinity with cows, you could always consume the congealed lactate of an animal you know better - your dog, your cat? Your wife maybe? Any less weird? No?

Again, maybe it's with the eyes of someone who has broken the habit, but just because humans have been getting their freak on for thousands of years doesn't make it any less 'unnatural' to me.

Butter. It’s full of beneficial nutrition. 

They said “ingredients that you don’t recognise.” Things don’t suddenly become more unhealthy because you don’t understand them.

Well they sort of do. You can have a meal made of just vegetables, meat/fish and some spices or you can have a heavily processed meal that may also include high fructose corn syrup, invert sugar, modified starches, hydrogenated oils, as well as de-foaming, bulking, and bleaching agents.

Are these two meals equal to you and if not it is easy to just apply a blank "if it is not likely to be in my kitchen then it doesn't need to be added" approach. I don't have high fructose corn syrup in my kitchen and it is not good for you. This approach just makes it very simple to spot UPF foods, IF you are trying to avoid them.

the more ingredients that you don’t recognise then the less healthy it is.
Abject nonsense.

Is there a point at which two wildly subjective generalisations cancel each other out?
I think you can probably say that using very refined ingredients that you'd not immediately use at home - extracted seed oils, whey proteins, sugars, emulsifiers, flavours and colourings  to make very low cost, low nutritional food has less value than using the more expensive ingredients that those products have been manufactured to replace; animal or vegetable fats, spices and other raw ingredients, along with the associated proven health problems (diabetes, CVD etc etc) that food that has too much salt and sugar in it that can be consumed at quantity can give its consumers
But it doesn't roll of the tongue quite as easily, fo'shure.

That’s not what they said. They said “ingredients that you don’t recognise.” Things don’t suddenly become more unhealthy because you don’t understand them.

it’s clearly not a literal rule, but  a rule of thumb. Think about it, if a product contains lots of ingredients you couldn’t ordinarily and individually buy in the supermarket, then in general, the product is generally less healthy than one which has fewer and more recognisable ingredients. Those products tend to be higher in sugar, higher in refined carbs and higher in saturated fats, and generally not great for you.  It doesn’t apply to EVERY product, and clearly some people (e.g. food tech scientist)  would recognise every ingredient in every unhealthy product,  even pop-tarts. But as a general rule of thumb, it works.

But you knew this already before spoiling for the fight.

But once you’ve not done it for a while so that normality by repetition thing is broken, it’s kind of weird.

I'll preface this with I do eat meat occasionally, but am generally dairy free. I can't put my finger on why but, yeah, to me dairy now just feels... weird somehow.

I love a good sandwich

Butter not marg obvs

If I want it to be healthier there's the option to eat half a sandwich, or no sandwich

For a vegan option, stick some extra virgin olive oil in the freezer.  You need to take it out to soften a bit in the fridge before use, so there is some extra faffing involved.  You can add salt if you desire (I prefer to just sprinkle a little salt on the bread after spreading rather than mixing it with the oil).  Of course you could just drizzle some straight from the bottle rather than messing about with freezing and thawing, although I tend to find that results in more being used.  In terms of healthiness we're probably talking marginal gains here - far better to really limit spread use as much as possible.

For a vegan option, stick some extra virgin olive oil in the freezer. You need to take it out to soften a bit in the fridge before use, so there is some extra faffing involved. You can add salt if you desire (I prefer to just sprinkle a little salt on the bread after spreading rather than mixing it with the oil). Of course you could just drizzle some straight from the bottle rather than messing about with freezing and thawing, although I tend to find that results in more being used. In terms of healthiness we’re probably talking marginal gains here – far better to really limit spread use as much as possible.

Yes, I find the bottle of olive oil I've got in the van becomes nicely solid for 5 months a year then miraculously returns to its runny form in april. A tub of oil popped in the porch of the house would probably stay in a soft lard like state for half the year too.

Well. I’m told I should not direct insults towards individuals, but to be perfectly frank Luke if your marmite needs to be increased because you prefer a lube to thin it’s intensity I put it to you that your marmite is best consumed whilst wearing red trousers. You cockwomble. What say you to that?

Will short trousers do? I have red short trousers only, my long ones are all blue.

Anyway, butter improves everything. EVERYTHING.

Butter being from milk and therefore natural….well, yes I kind of get it.

But once you’ve not done it for a while so that normality by repetition thing is broken, it’s kind of weird.

Indeed. But extending that, food generally is weird. Aww, look at the cute little baa-lamb, I think I'll murder it and chuck it on a fire. Hack up some grass, mix it with the blood for a nice sauce. Fry up some unfertilised chicken ovulations, maybe drag some plants out of the ground and boil them for a bit and hey look, balanced meal! Squeezing a cow's tits and drinking what comes out is positively normal by comparison.

I think most people just swerve thinking about this stuff. It troubles me to the point of being an eating disorder. But you're absolutely right; if we sold human breast milk in Tesco there would be fury erupting at the Daily Express. We're conditioned how to think by our parents, carry it for life and pass it to our children.

Are these two meals equal to you and if not it is easy to just apply a blank “if it is not likely to be in my kitchen then it doesn’t need to be added” approach.

Your hypothesis is sound but your conclusion isn't. Are these apples the same as these oranges? Of course they aren't. Therefore, oranges are bad?

Some of those things we know aren't great. HFCS as you mention is unpleasant stuff, though it's almost wholly a North American affliction which I don't think I've ever seen in the UK. Regardless, we cannot just handwave it all whilst bandying about words like "natural" or "processed." HFCS is as "natural" as olive oil. Setting fire to animals is a "process." The entire planet is "chemicals."

This approach just makes it very simple

No, it just appears to do so. Which is my entire point. As is often the case, simple questions have complex answers.

Your hypothesis is sound but your conclusion isn’t. Are these apples the same as these oranges? Of course they aren’t. Therefore, oranges are bad?

Apples and Oranges are likely to be in a kitchen, high fructose corn syrup is not

There is a clear difference between processed (i.e. chopping something up and putting in a tin) to Ultra Process (i.e. adding all sorts of shit that is not required and is harmful alone and when combined even worse)

As is often the case, simple questions have complex answers.

To you maybe, to me the answer is simple enough.

I think you can probably say that... very low cost, low nutritional food has less value

Well, yes, this is a tautology.

What makes something inherently better because you might find it in your kitchen?

Sodium chloride in excess is particularly bad for you but I'd challenge anyone to find a kitchen which didn't contain some. Many diners add extra to their food before even taking a first bite. It's a "flavour enhancer," and an effective "preservative" in use long before domestic refrigeration was commonplace. And it's entirely natural.

Simple, hey.

Apples and Oranges are likely to be in a kitchen, high fructose corn syrup is not

Go to the US. Report back what you find.

I don't think HFCS even exists in the UK, does it?

There is a clear difference between processed (i.e. chopping something up and putting in a tin) to Ultra Process (i.e. adding all sorts of shit that is not required and is harmful alone and when combined even worse)

There is a difference sure. But a clear one?

How do we define "shit that is not required"? That's a broad church. Rosemary in a stew is shit that's not required (and hey, it's also an E number). What are you eating, WW2 ration packs and gruel?

Think about it, if a product contains lots of ingredients you couldn’t ordinarily and individually buy in the supermarket, then in general, the product is generally less healthy than one which has fewer and more recognisable ingredients.

Is it? Why?

How does your "recognition" change anything? Once of a time, no-one in the UK had seen an orange or a banana.

Those products tend to be higher in sugar, higher in refined carbs and higher in saturated fats, and generally not great for you.

There we go. Tons of sugar is bad, we know this. Refined carbs, eh, maybe. Saturated fats, this thread is literally "should I eat more butter?" and the Aye Vote has plenty of advocates. Do we have a STW consensus on the OP's question? What if the same question had been posed 10, 20, 100 years ago?

But you knew this already before spoiling for the fight.

😁 I'm not spoiling for a fight, I'm asking "are you sure about that?" If you're using words like "clearly..." or "obviously..." then maybe stop and question your own assumptions. It's very easy to generalise - gods know, I've done it often enough myself - but in this instance I think it's bogus. The experts you mention can't agree. So what hope do we have?

Once of a time, no-one in the UK had seen an orange or a banana.

Without processing; cotton seed oil is toxic to humans ( contains glosypol, as a natural insect repellent) To remove it the seed (inedible otherwise) is ground, bleached and refined, it still stinks though, so it's deodorised by spinning at very high speed with ferrite chloride. All of that, and it's still useful as a butter replacement as it has a higher temperature at which it burns, and of course, it's a by product as opposed to an added value product that it replaces and even after all that processing; cheaper. 

Whether that's "bad" or something you're OK with eating is induvial choice, and entirely should be, BUT it should be made clear to everyone what's going on in their food. Without that people can't make informed choices.  

How do we define “shit that is not required”?

And back to the "if it is not likely to be in my kitchen then it doesn’t need to be added”

I don't need to add modified this and that, emulsifiers, artificial flavourings, colouring, sweeteners, preservatives and so on.

Some may be worse than others and the added impact of combinations, levels and regular consumption may differ but again, the very simple rule above works for me.

What are you eating, WW2 ration packs and gruel?

Nope, I am eating very nice food but I prepare it all myself as pretty anything ready prepared has UPFs by default so I avoid it.

We have the capacity to create food ingredients from things that otherwise wouldn't be. Cotton seed being the first one that came into my head. Without industrialisation, we can't do these things, there's the difference between these foods and "setting fire to carcasses" as a process.

Margarine = vaseline + marketing

Butter = godlike

Flora is palm oil, which is reason enough to eat butter.
You might need to go and fact check yourself.

I am corrected. When I worked in that factory it was indeed palm oil, they have finally changed that.

Unilever do still lots of palm oil in other products, not all sustainable, and publicly justify it.

Whether that’s “bad” or something you’re OK with eating is induvial choice, and entirely should be, BUT it should be made clear to everyone what’s going on in their food. Without that people can’t make informed choices.

Bingo.

I don’t need to add modified this and that, emulsifiers, artificial flavourings, colouring, sweeteners, preservatives and so on.

Again, apples and oranges. If you made, say, home-made mayonnaise from scratch (for some mad reason) it'd have to last maybe for an evening; if you bought a jar it'd need to be capable of sitting in the fridge for a year without turning back into its constituent parts.

I am eating very nice food but I prepare it all myself

Do you own a farm?

Refined carbs, eh, maybe

numerous, credible studies show a link between high GI foods (refined carbs making up the bulk of these) and weight gain (leading to other issues) and diabetes. Refined carbs tend to have much lower or often zero fibre content too.

Saturated fats

Again, numerous, credible studies and the scientific consensus (despite suggestions otherwise) show a direct link between excess saturated fats and heart disease, which by the way is still the biggest killer in the UK by a factor or two (source, BHF.)

But… bringing it back to the topic, I still eat butter over Marge/or spread or whatever it’s called now. You still need some saturated fats for good health and I moderate my intake across my diet.  Butter also tastes infinitely better too!

This is the “chemicals” argument and it’s woolly-headed. If we don’t recognise what we’re eating and we care sufficiently to be concerned then why not go look it up rather than promoting ignorance as a badge of honour.

@Cougar, with respect that's very condescending. Most people on here I hope, are bright enough to understand that everything is made of chemicals and not all chemicals are bad. We know what sodium chloride is. We know what 'Aqua' (or 'dihydrogen monoxide' is) and that many 'natural' ingredients also have E numbers.

We are talking about a useful rule of thumb to help identify less healthy food. I don't know about you, but when I'm shopping I don't have time to Google every emulsifier, stabiliser, bulking/caking agent or whatever, listed on a product.

If the list of these is a dozen or more, I'm making a leap to imagine that they were put there for the manufacturer's convenience, not for my nutritional benefit. That's time management and pragmatism not ignorance.

A rule of thumb, that is generally useful, but may not stand up to forensic dissection on every single occasion.

rather than promoting ignorance as a badge of honour.

But you know this is exactly the position that the food industry promotes to us, and would themselves be happy to obfuscate. If there was a label on every product that said "This product was made using ingredients extracted from substances that are themselves, not food" what effect would that have on sales I wonder?

So..... are we saying that flora pro active is worse for me than butter? Bear in mind i have both high blood pressure and high cholesterol. Both currently being taken care of by tablets.

I'd love to go back to butter if i can,

Do you own a farm?

They said "prepare".

Again, apples and oranges. If you made, say, home-made mayonnaise from scratch (for some mad reason) it’d have to last maybe for an evening; if you bought a jar it’d need to be capable of sitting in the fridge for a year without turning back into its constituent parts.

No it is not apples and oranges. I have a fridge where a lot of things keep quite well thanks and I even have mayo in the fridge but that mayo doesn't have any 'extras' in it that are not required or yet again "are something I wouldn't have in my kitchen"

For example the mayo I use is as follows;
Olive Oil (80%), Pasteurised British Free Range Egg Yolk (9%), Apple Cider Vinegar, Pink Himalayan Salt.

I have all of that in the kitchen. Note there is not an emulsifier, preservative, thickener etc,. in sight. Easy isn't it - well it is if you want it to be and not just argue the toss about it.

So….. are we saying that flora pro active is worse for me than butter?

I'd suggest you talk to your doctor or cardiologist rather than a bunch of folks on the internet with some "individual" views about healthy diets.