[Closed] Which Coffee Machine?

Depends on budget but these are very well-regarded (and popular as a combo with the Niche) over on coffeeforums.co.uk

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-marax-espresso-machine.html

I'd like to be able to say the Sage Oracle that I purchased back in January last year but I'm on my 3rd, and is inconsistent with beans.

When it's good it's good - but that's not worth the 1600.

Delonghi Magnifica of course

Silvia pro from Rancilio if the budget allows. Two boilers and PID control you can will it to someone with that daily usage as it will more likely outlast you.

Not sure why some people are recommending bean to cup or machines with built in grinders when the man's just spent £500 on a grinder!

That Silvia Pro would be good but essentially no better than a fully modded up Gaggia Classic.

Having seen how much 2010 Gaggia classics are going for, I'm tempted to flog mine and buy a delonghi too*.

* grum is right though, OP doesn't want B2C

With that quality of grinder, a La Spaziale S1 Mini Vivaldi II would be perfect for you. It's a dual boiler system with no requirement for any modification to get superb espresso.

I've had the older Mini Vivaldi for the past decade: it's simple to use, easy to maintain (with all parts available online) and I'd buy another in a heartbeat. That said, I cannot see anything short of war or natural disaster necessitating its replacement.

For maximum STW niche points you should be getting a lever machine anyway.

https://londiniumespresso.com/store/l1-compressa

i got this , it’s not cheap but very good if you want to learn more about coffee and profiling.

bella barrister are a great company to deal with.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/brands/lelit-bianca-dual-boiler-paddle-pl162t.html

it’s not cheap

Over 10x what I paid for my Magnifica 😱
Looks nicer though!

I like my coffee and have about 4 cups a day - but I'll never like it THAT much 😉

That Silvia Pro would be good but essentially no better than a fully modded up Gaggia Classic.

Say what now? The Silvia Pro is a two boiler machine whereas the Gaggia appears to be single boiler and the OP wants to do a milky coffee most days.

Edit That La Spaziale looks like a good option too if you have enough worktop space.

I have https://www.interspar.at/shop/haushalt/delonghi-siebtraeger-dedica-style-schwarz/p/2020002891848
It´s perfect for my needs

Say what now? The Silvia Pro is a two boiler machine whereas the Gaggia appears to be single boiler and the OP wants to do a milky coffee most days.

Sorry you're right I thought a Silvia Pro was pretty much a Silvia with PID didn't realise/notice you said it was a dual boiler.

I'd still be getting a Lelit Mara X if I was spending a grand or more though.

I have a Niche Zero and a Mara X....... it's a great setup - I love it. Happy to answer any questions you have.

Lelit Bianca (as mentioned above) looks great too - and the extra gets you a double boiler (although the temp control on the Mara x is very clever), flow profiling and the ability to plumb it in.
The major advantage of the MaraX is the size: it's very small.

It also does really-good pre-infusion - it has a very slow ramp-up of pressure compared to other machines, which really helps cut down on channelling.

My neighbour has just bought a La Marzocco Linea Mini and Mazzer. The niche zero is hands down better than the Mazzer, both in usability and the flavour it produces for milk drinks via its conical burrs. My neighbour agrees, and has a Niche on order to replace his Mazzer (I'd previously had a super jolly - replaced with the niche). What surprised me though was the fact that I preferred the usability of the Lelit over the Linea Mini. I really REALLY wanted a linea mini, so was looking for an excuse to go and buy one as an upgrade. But compared to the Lelit, the coffee was no better, and it felt really awkward to use. The steam from the linea was amazing..... but otherwise I preferred the Mara to be honest.

Edit: I also looked at the La Spaziale when buying the Mara. It does volumetric dosing (which I thought was important at the time), and is a double boiler. But wow, that thing is ugly. It also has a non-standard size portafilter - which put me off

For maximum STW niche points you should be getting a lever machine anyway.

I took that pic!

haven’t taken advantage of any discount yet 🙂 i’m waiting for Reiss to get the compact ‘budget’ lever machine to market, it’s been on the drawing board for a couple of years now.

.

I took that pic!

Hehe, nice one. I'd be keen for a smaller cheaper version also.

bella barrister are a great company to deal with.

Plus it's convenient if you ever fall foul of the law.

I drink a similar amount of coffee a day as the op and have a Gaggia Classic Pro, it does everything I need and I know I can easily repair or upgrade it if/when necessary. I think one of the big reasons the Classic is so popular is that the next step up is about £1k, there's very little middle ground.

Depends what you want to spend, the GCP will do a perfectly good job with what you drink and the fact you're using a fantastic grinder will mean your coffee will be significantly better than before anyway.

Edit: I also looked at the La Spaziale when buying the Mara. It does volumetric dosing (which I thought was important at the time), and is a double boiler. But wow, that thing is ugly. It also has a non-standard size portafilter – which put me off

The 53mm portafilters in La Spaziale machines are widely available, should you need to replace a basket, change to bottomless or buy a blank for backflushing. The increased coffee depth also helps to limit channelling, making your espresso more consistent. Pressure build-up from the vibratory pump is gradual, but if you really want pre-infusion you can buy an internal add-on chamber from La Spaziale (installation is simple).

Regarding the appearance: beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To me, it looks (and performs) like a svelte version of one of the commercial machines found in any Italian bar. I reckon it makes sense to go for a brand with a strong commercial presence, as the build quality will likely be more robust and spare parts should be easier to find even in the distant future.

As Sandwich has already pointed out, the Silvia Pro is another excellent option (when I bought my S1, Miss Silvia only came with a single boiler). Since the OP will be steaming milk every day, I strongly recommend dual boilers rather than a heat exchanger.

@MrSmith - I think the foundry have finally gotten some lever group heads for the Londinium Vectis prototypes, a mate on a coffee forum might be getting one to bench test early this year.

Will hopefully be similar sized to a La Pavoni, but using a spring lever, 58mm group and ~£1K plus VAT if it goes to plan.

@batfink - I have an older Lelit Mara with a paddle kit fitted, the newer X is a great option as well.

Would not recommend a dual boiler unless the OP has super soft water (no kettle scale at all ever), commercial standard filter setup or just uses bottles instead. Descaling the DBs is a massive pain 😢

I like the look of these but very spendy for a home machine:

In the usual “recommend what you own” style I’ve had the older version of this for nearly 8 years.

Compact. PID controlled boiler for coffee, separate HX for milk so you can steam and pour at the same time. And it looks like it’s still under £1k. I’ve not used any other machines in a similar price range but it looked great value compared to the competitors at the time (and still does), makes great coffee

Id guess the steam is weaker than a boiler model but it’s fine for a couple of coffees (a bit slow if doing more than that). And there’s no hot water if you want Americanos.

Quick Mill Silvano

General warning do not buy from Cafe/Caffee/Coffee Italia - they are not to be trusted and it’s just not worth the risk for the cheaper prices given the number of customer service horror stories that have come up for them (Dave Hinde Cycles would be the bike equivalent).

UK decent retailers are Bella Barista, Black Cat Coffee, The Espresso Shop, Fracino, Ferrari Espresso, Clumsy Goat, Londinium etc.

I've had Rancilio Silvia for few months now and I'm quite happy with it. However being single boiler machine without PID, Silvia has obvious limitations. That's why new Silvia Pro X (dual boiler, 2 X PID, brew pressure gauge and a programmable low pressure pre-infusion profiling) will be my next espresso machine.
Silvia Pro X

Silvia Pro/Pro X does look good but it's pretty enormous front to back. Depends where you want to put it I guess.

For me it's not the prettiest but has a certain utilitarian charm.

Thanks very much for all the great advice! Some very good looking machines on display.

I'm in Edinburgh so very soft water. The general theme seems to be that DB is desirable for milk-frothing. Any views on the Lelit Elizabeth?

I think La Spaziale looks tremendous, but it is just unfeasibly large.

Any views on this one? I think it's a work of art.

Big vote for the Gaggia Classic from me. I have a 2011 model which I have lightly modded (IMS basket, brass block and VST shower screen), and I use it once or twice a day.

The big reason I favour the Classic is that when things go wrong - which they will eventually with any machine used very regularly - you can fix it yourself with a few basic tools and access to the internet. Parts are cheap and plentiful and there's plenty of opportunity to mod along the way as you see fit. As well as all that, they hold value very well and in some cases, are increasing.

Silvia Pro/Pro X does look good but it’s pretty enormous front to back.

Yes I had noticed that. The Elizabeth is relatively compact by comparison, and Lelit do seem to be held in high regard.

@crimsondynamo - I also have a second hand La Pavoni Europiccola, as stock it is pretty similar to the one you linked.

They are great, can last pretty much forever and easily serviced, but have a couple of quirks. Can get too hot, an lcd temp tag is super useful. The heat sink and pressure profiling kit are game changing.

Takes ~10-15 mins to heat up stably, but you need to be careful with young kids/pets as the boiler body is exposed and very hot.

https://flic.kr/p/2kkmoUQ
https://flic.kr/p/2kkmoUV

Tudor at Coffee Sensor has all the custom bits you could ever wish for, plus refurbished fancy ones as well.

https://coffee-sensor.com/product-category/la-pavoni-parts-and-accessories-custom-made-from-coffee-sensor/

The La Pavonis are a classic. Never seen that heat sink mod before though, that's mental!

I was considering picking up an old Europiccola Pro second hand that needs a bit of fettling but I have a long list of jobs for the missus to do first!

Delonghi Dynamica. Replaced an Ena Jura 7. Makes better coffee with less mess. Has an excellent burr grinder. But best of all… IT FILLS FROM THE FRONT.

this last feature is a godsend because you need to add water every couple of days. I filter mine in a Brita first.

The Lelit Elizabeth has a 73 page thread on the UK coffee forum. Does that make it the barrista equivalent of the Kinesis Tripster Ti?

It's not pretty and it has a silly name, but I think it's currently the front runner.

@crimsondynamo - shall we say there might have been a commercial interest helping promote it on the forum 😉

Cracking little machine though with a lot of flexibility and good steam power, you would not be disappointed.

Ah... thanks for the heads-up. I saw that the mod/admin/reviewer had given Lelit some technical feedback (which they acted upon) but I hadn't inferred commercial influence. I'm in no massive rush as the grinder will not arrive until March, so I'll try to research more widely.

Cost wise I'm rationalising it as being the equivalent of a respectable frame (for the machine) and and some mid-range wheels (for the grinder).

I wonder if La Pavoni could be the additional retro bike you have in your shed just for pure theatre once in a while. Those refurb/modded ones look brilliant. I'll bet they sell fast.

The Elizabeth is a good machine though, irrespective of that really. Especially if through Bella Barista with a “back to base” not “parts only” warranty.

That is a good way to look at it. Also I will always make more coffees than ride a bike each year (5 a day between me and my wife over a year is ~1,800).

I bought a second hand Pavoni for exactly that reason, small enough to stick on a shelf or on top of a cupboard. Think they had quite a few refurbed ones in Nov but sold out over Christmas.

Bit of a whim really but you would be surprised at how different the lever machines are to the pumped ones. Nice bit of Sunday morning coffee theatre 😂

I'm going with the recommend what you have standard.

Flair Pro2, Dualit goose neck kettle and a milk warmer (you said flat white so no need for fancy frothers).

Benefits of the pro2 being you can guage the flow and adjust pressure accordingly and at just a couple of shots a day it's easy to do. There's also no boilers to go wrong!

I know the OP doesn’t want a B2C, but many others will read this. I bought a Delomghi during lockdown from their factory refurbed shop, and it really has been magnifica!

General warning do not buy from Cafe/Caffee/Coffee Italia – they are not to be trusted and it’s just not worth the risk for the cheaper prices given the number of customer service horror stories that have come up for them (Dave Hinde Cycles would be the bike equivalent).

UK decent retailers are Bella Barista, Black Cat Coffee, The Espresso Shop, Fracino, Ferrari Espresso, Clumsy Goat, Londinium etc.

Just to add Gaggiadirect at Elland to your list of good retailers to deal with. If you're after a Gaggia give them a bell. They'll also chat about your requirements over zoom. I've just got a refurbished Classic from them to give as a Christmas present. Indistinguishable from a brand new one, apart from a slightly tatty box.

I've always fancied one of these built in ones that fits in to a  kitchen cabinet.

@dyna-ti
A friend has an AEG built in and I'm really not impressed - they're just a cheapish counter top bean-to-cup machine with a fancy door in front (and a lot of wasted space - see the two vertical gaps in the recessed bit? - thats the width of the actual machine).
The one they have is wifi connected with a smartphone app - the most ludicrous thing I've ever seen, as you have to go to the machine after switching it on because the first thing it does on waking up is a cleaning cycle that dumps out some dirty water. So you have to put your cup on the tray *after* it's done that...at which point you can press the button on the front of it.

The big reason I favour the Classic is that when things go wrong – which they will eventually with any machine used very regularly – you can fix it yourself with a few basic tools and access to the internet

I think that's true of most of the 'prosumer' machines isn't it - they're fairly standard parts in a fancy metal case? Can recommend https://www.ferrari-espresso.com/shop/spare-parts/ for advice and spares (I've replaced the main pump and a purge valve in the time I've had mine).

Just to book-end this thread (or maybe not), I have just bought a second hand LaPavoni Pro. they look rad, have a cool name, there's interesting upgrade potential, they have a lot of character, and require more human interaction than most. I appreciate that this might not produce the most scientifically perfect espresso every time, but whatever will be will be. I feel like I've been on quite a journey in the last three days.

So in summary; expect to see me in six months time asking advice for something highly computerised and automated after I've failed to tame the Pav.

Congrats! That will be great I reckon. I've always fancied a lever machine.

Many thanks to Kimura for making the intro.

Kimura - I think Grum is your next target!

@crimsondynamo - 😂

You are in for a treat! They are a lot of fun.

I appreciate that this might not produce the most scientifically perfect espresso

At least with a lever you get to play with pressure profiles, temperature control in the boiler will be your big challenge. It's a deep a branched rabbit-hole, enjoy!

The Niche is an amazing grinder by the way, love mine.

Kimura – I think Grum is your next target!

I'm sold just need him to convince my missus 🙂

I need a LaPavoni in my life at some point. I just watched Jude Law making espresso in the Talented Mr Ripley with one. I think that film is set in the 50s so technically an anachronism (the first machines came in the 60s, I think), but he looks so suave.

@superficial - Glad you didn’t try to understand the Roger Moore Pavoni method! 😬

Haha yeah, I've seen that one before. I'd drink Jude Law's coffee - Not sure about Roger's!

Can’t argue with that, I’d love a La Pav when my Classic pulls it’s last shot. I might be waiting a few years though!

I know the OP doesn’t want a B2C, but many others will read this. I bought a Delomghi during lockdown from their factory refurbed shop, and it really has been magnifica!

my magnifica died during lockdown...... having been back for repair once and a number of home repairs since.....i bit the bullet .

bought a jura E8 and then wondered what it was id been drinking all these years - certainly wasnt coffee 😀

maybe ive missed something, but for one coffee a day thats a lot of Kitchen real estate, and bike tokens. Is an Aeropress not up to it?

I've had a Lelit Mara X for the last couple of years (since I've been 100% remote working and could justify the expense!) It's been great - looks good, relatively small, and easy to produce consistent results (unlike the Rancilio Silvia I had previously).

There's detailed reviews of the Mara X and Elizabeth linked on the Bella Barista site, which are worth watching. If large volumes of milk frothing are a priority then I guess the Elizabeth might be more suited.

for one coffee a day thats a lot of Kitchen real estate, and bike tokens.

I missed that part. I do wish I had the disposable income to drop over £500 on a grinder and more on a coffee machine for only 1 coffee a day, but good luck to you OP!

bike tokens

Hold on a minute, isn't this a coffee forum o_O?

Coffee club at work have just replaced their Magnifica as the last one was 'gunged up', it was getting binned, but I may save it and clean and refurb it myself, could be a result!.

^ why not? Worth a tinker.

When covid first struck, I found myself “between projects” at work and so found the time to slowly refurb a 20 year old commercial faema espresso machine. They were pretty popular in pubs/restaurants, so there’s loads of them about for peanuts (mine was about 50 quid) and parts are cheap as chips. Ugly as sin, but built like a soviet tank.

I found the whole thing extremely enjoyable (even therapeutic) - and it made great coffee when I was done.

I do think the inner workings of a bean-to-cup are likely to be horrendously complicated - but if it just needs a bit of a clean up, flush and descale, should be no problem

I have a Melitta Barista TS Smart which is not at all cheap but has been fantastic, I imagine the insides are fairly complex but the brewing unit is removable and easy to clean, every now and then I do a more deep clean of the housing inside which does eventually build up some small deposits of ground coffee which will go manky if you never do it.
I would say coffee of all types is close enough to a coffee shop taste to be worth it. Took a while to decide which beans I prefer although I ended up with a fairly predictable choice of Lavazza Creme e Aroma...