Which 7 seater (or similar) am I after? Cars for a not very car person…

i think I want a 7 seater

Does it have to be a 7-seater or just a longer cargo area?

SMax is your answer. I had one, replaced it with an SUV and instantly regretted it so got another one within 6 months. Drives really well, not at all van like, loads of space, decent enough gadgets on the higher spec models, easily takes bikes, mine were really reliable. Clarkson once described them as the only people carrier that you would want to own, rather than need to own.

There are a stack of 70k - £100k miles high spec versions for sale on Autotrader between £3.5k - £4.5k.

SMax Autotrader

Does it have to be a 7-seater or just a longer cargo area?

not particularly, I think I just want van like space without buying an actual van, as someone who doesn’t really know about cars, 7 seater seemed to give that sort of cargo area but always open to suggestions to look at

@franksinatra thank you, I’ve got a search starting point at least now

cheap to run and tax - vauxhall zafira tourer is a smidge smaller than a smax, but £20/year tax and 60mpg. If you want a bit more space I'd go Galaxy before SMAX

I've got a Mazda 5 (09 model)

fitted a fork mount front and rear, so i can fit 2 passengers + 1 bike, 1 passenger + 2 bikes... and all kit secured

Really happy with the Mazda, (2.0 diesel) been pretty reliable, just does suspension parts quite readily...

If you want a bit more space I’d go Galaxy before SMAX

The Galaxy has extra headroom space for passenger using seats 6&7, but its not really usable space otherwise. So worth it if you plan to use all the seats often, not really worth it if it is just a bike carrier.

On my second Smax. Wouldn’t hesitate to recommend.

2015 Titanium spec 2l diesel. Does 40 mpg average commuting (which isn’t great), however as a load lugger and nice place to sit I can’t fault it. I can do a 350 mile drive and get out feeling fresh, which I certainly couldn’t do in my previous cars.

The folding seats in the boot are ¾ size, so anyone taller than 5ft isn’t going to thank you for stuffing them in there for a prolonged period of time. If you are just using the middle seats the leg room and general space for passengers is vast.

All seats down and it can take a bike whole. Or a wardrobe, single bed, sideboard, full set of patio furniture, church pew, 8 garden chairs, 600kg of bricks etc…

Think of it as a tall estate rather than an MPV.

More at the van end but what about Caddy, Torneo, Berlingo type options. People carriers that are van based.

I've got a caddy and like it. Not really a car person it's just a tool to move me and things around.

I'm not sure how cheap they are but the answer is, not cheap enough. Do not buy a Peugeot 5008. They are a 7 seater and have loads of room. Apart from that, they are dog shit. I rented one recently to drive back from Nice and it was horrible. I'd forgotten how nasty it is to have to drop into 3rd on a Peage incline, just to get up it. Junk.

VW Touran, dull but reliable, economical and you can take the seats out completely and move house in it.

Skoda Superb estate. £20 VED available around your budget, but some models jump to £190+ VED so watch out.

Likely to be fewer cars out there than Fords, but they're liked as taxis for good reason

Mondeo estates are also reasonably long

Had a look at mate's SMax that he was selling. It's taller, but shorter than our Mondeo estate.  Didn't really see it adding anything, as the Mondeo already does all of this:

All seats down and it can take a bike whole. Or a wardrobe, single bed, sideboard, full set of patio furniture, church pew, 8 garden chairs, 600kg of bricks etc

I can see the advantage of slightly higher roof, though. We always used to stack bikes upright, from wheel off with the 40 or 60 split side rar seats down.  not an issue with 26ers, doesn't work with 29ers.

I have owned a Mazda 5 and a Ford Grand CMax, both were easy enough to get seats flat and chuck bike(s) in the back. The other bonus with those two was the sliding side doors which was great for better side access when parked.

The £20 VED goes up to £90(?)  next year I think?

All seats down and it can take a bike whole. Or a wardrobe, single bed, sideboard, full set of patio furniture, church pew, 8 garden chairs, 600kg of bricks etc…

How big is your bike!?

6 foot 6.

Zafira here, bought it new for 10K, its on its 9th year now 90k and still going strong, few sets of tyres, front discs, air filter and spark plugs are all Ive had to change

Comfy- well its OK and yeah the back row seats are small but , its a sea of plastic inside (base spec) , but itll take 3 bikes & passengers with front wheels off (upright 2 x 29er 1 x 26er) its been a brilliant workhorse and with a big roofbox on top wife + 4 kids + bikes/ bodyboards + tent have been all over UK and several trips to france

Would I like a full van, yes, but Zafira has worked out much cheaper, it fits in a regular parking space at the supermarket and under the bars at the local park car parks.

If we get a van, we'd probably then need a second smaller car, which weve avoided so far!

VW Touran or Sharan or Seat Alhambra (rebadged Sharan).

These all drive like a car not an SUV/Boat. The load space of the Sharan/Alhambra is huge

VW do come with a badge tax and will likely be more expensive than the Ford though....

Diesels might not be the best choice, depends on how you're going to use it? Short trips? Daily motorway miles?

The Galaxy has extra headroom space for passenger using seats 6&7, but its not really usable space otherwise. So worth it if you plan to use all the seats often, not really worth it if it is just a bike carrier.

It's 15cm longer as a car, a lot of which is in the boot. The 10cm taller rear end is also useful if you want to get larger bikes in upright. Depends on the OP needs

something cheap to run / tax

half decent fuel economy

something cheap / easy to repair / reliable

circa 4k

To meet that is actually going to be a challenge I reckon. for your budget it's going to be about as old as your 60 plate insignia and probably diesel, another "high mileage hero" which potentially cuts against the reliability/cheap to repair requirement.

We're just getting shot of our 16 year old C4 Picasso which has been pretty reliable (up to a point), it's not left us stranded yet but all the big bills are looming, the DPF is going to clog soon, Turbo should have failed 50K ago but has hung on, it got some tell-tale rust low down and has lifting lacquer all over the place, plus various minor electrical gremlins, it'll probably need brakes/suspension links/maybe a new CV joint at next MOT, I just can't be arsed now...

Having had one (for a bit too long) I'm not sure I'd fancy another car based MPV unless you regularly have to move more than 5 people, the roof is higher but then all the seating means it's not really "van-like" with the seats down, (perhaps with them out?) an actual van based MPV is a different beast but probably outside of your budget. you seem to end up paying more to own more vehicle (and proportionately worse MPG), but if you don't need to move more people why pay for more seating?

I'm joining the unimaginative masses and getting a shiny Octavia Estate next week, lower roof, but still has a relatively big boot, I should be able to get my MTB in with seats down (or it goes on the roof maybe) and the other sorts of items I will typically need to lug with enough space in the back seats for full sized people.

In your shoes I'd be mulling a 12-65 plate Estate of some sort, I've started to notice that Octavia Estates are bloody everywhere since deciding to get one.

Since the rise of the MPV in the late 90's and the subsequent rise of the SUV in popularity through the 2010-2020s it feels like the venerable Estate car gets overlooked now when people need a "Family car" but if all you want is something as driveable as a hatchback but with a bit more boot volume they're still a sensible option, being unfashionable seems to help moderate their price on the used market a tad...

Anyway, typical STW Response, your question is wrong, you need an Estate... or a panel van 😉

I bought a Kia Carens because it was cheaper than all the others and Kia have a good rep. It's reliable, cheap to tax and run etc so keeping me happy.

Nissan NV200

If I hadn't bought my Viano, I'd have replaced my old SMax with another SMax!

Drive really well and boot is massive without the seats (i used to actually remove mine for big trips away). The boot was waaay bigger than in the previous Passat estate I had. I ran mine til it had 160k on it and it was still going great, I'd have happily jumped in it and drove down to the alps.

Toyota verso.  7 seats ,  fold flat,  front wheel drive so no annoying drive shaft hump.  Perfect for mtb and dogs.  We have a 2011 one with 100k which runs perfectly.  I think they stopped making them in around 2018,  great shame.

Do you want manual or auto gearbox? If auto that rules out the Ford options as the Powershift gearboxes are poop. I'm running a 2012 £2.5k Galaxy at the moment, it's ok, but not as nice to drive as our 2009 Mondeo. Great for bikes, doing 42ish mpg Vs about 50 for the Mondeo so the extra air resistance makes a fair difference.

Not sure why you'd buy when you can get a Dacia Jogger leased (with maintenance package) for about £250 a month.

https://www.leaseloco.com/guides/personal-car-leasing/leasing-a-car-vs-buying

+1 didnthurt (which is what I did, and got the hybrid)

Now this is not a 7 seater nor am I affiliated with this company but I thought this was too good a deal to not share. My lease is up in February and hope this deal (or similar) is available then.

https://www.leaseloco.com/car-leasing/volkswagen/id7

£262 a month for a brand new ID7. Obviously that price is based on low annual mileage but still.....

I bought a Zafira CDTI when my truck died because it was about £2-3000 less than any equivalent van or pickup.

It takes a 2,4m length of timber resting on the front dash with the rear door shut.

There is more space with the seats folded down than in my old Fourtrak.

It is absolutely dull to the point that I lost it in a car park recently.

It seats 7 which I thought I had no need for but have utilized twice in 6 months.

With the last row of seats up there is no luggage space worth speaking of.

There must be an over supply of cars right now as how can this be offered at this price.

https://www.leaseloco.com/car-leasing/bmw/8-series

If I rolled into the carpark at work in one of these, they'd think I'd won the lottery. 🙂

Recommended what you run in true STW style

Volvo V70 - massive, would transport a full bikes shops worth of bikes. Has been and is an amazing car for us.

Volvo XC90 - as above but even more massiveness and actual 7 seater.

Berlingo Multispacker ( very old model) - not as massive as the above but tall and useful space.

There must be an over supply of cars right now as how can this be offered at this price.

£6.5k upfront! Converted to the STW standard unit of vehicular currency, £6500 is the equivalent to.......{calculating}..........

13 Porsche's

[i]There must be an over supply of cars right now as how can this be offered at this price.

Or one base model DJI Amflow ebike.

In terms of bike-friendly cars.

I've had a Galaxy, which was fab for fitting my mtb tandem in, upright (with the middle and rear LH seats removed).

My Discovery was also good for being able to have a bike upright.

Discovery Sport had lower headroom and loading, so needed to have wheel(s) off. Similar for Kia Carens.

Given the choice, I would opt for the taller and get the bike wheeled in, at the expense of a bit of handling.

Thank you all for the suggestions so far

Searching continues with every suggestion posted here, have seen and am starting to lean towards SMax, zafira although not against a berlingo type vehicle either, have seen a few fairly priced skoda roomsters with low mileage on the clocks

not overly fussed on automatic vs manual

Not overly fussed about age as, in my head at least, lower mileage is a better attribute

petrol would be much better (I think) due to occasionally using ULEZ roads because diesel, DPF and all that other oddness just rattles my my brain a bit plus my mileage (I don’t think) really warrants it unless I’m missing something?!?

current annual mileage stands at roughly 10-12k a year with a majority of that being school runs, shopping trips, staying relatively local with the  very occasional long run somewhere

not keen on leasing as trying to watch the monthly outgoings

thanks again, all

please do keep the suggestions coming as buying cars is well beyond the realms of what I know to do correctly

Kia carens here, dull as dishwater but not a beat wrong in 10 years.  7 seats but the 3rd row is for kids or adults with knees raised.  Just looked on autotrader 5k gets you a 10 year old 80k miler.  Loads of life left in that.

the zafira 1.6 is ULEZ compliant, not sure about the older 2.0 diesels. the older ford diesels are not ulez compliant

Another happy SMaxist here, previous cars Honda Stream, Volvo 940, pug 405 estate.

It will take a double mattress flat in the back, or a regular three seat sofa. A mate once called me to give her a hand home from the furniture shop and we put the first sofa in the back and the lightweight one on the roof. Our 60 reg diesel isn’t ULEZ compliant so watch for that if you drive those places, but I would happily have another even though we aren’t ferrying kids like when we bought it thirteen years ago. Clutch was changed at 92000 miles, that was around £1100 with ancillaries and a service.

I've recently moved from a 2010 Peugeot 5008 1.6HDI to a 2011 Mazda5 2.0 petrol. Not a massive upgrade but the Peugeot died and the Mazda was cheap.

Plenty of space for 3 kids.

Boot slightly smaller than the Peugeot but still big.

Spare wheel is inside the boot - this is a big one. On both my previous cars the spare wheel hung underneath on the outside and got to the point where it couldn't actually be used because the fixings and mechanism holding it had all corroded beyond use.

Changing from turbo diesel to natually aspirated petrol was a steep learning curve in terms of driving style. Needs more revs, lots more changing gear when going up hills.

Mazda only gets about 32MPG. This is painful, but there's also no dual mass flywheel, no turbo, no timing belt. All expensive things to fix in a car of this age.

To be honest, the ULEZ thing isn’t a deal breaker, more of a nice have, budget MAY be able to be stretched to 4500 at a push for the right car

seems there’s a lot of love for the SMAX and incidentally was the first car I tried searching for this morning. Last couple (or so) cars have been Vauxhalls, I like them but wouldn’t mind a bit of a change

If buying a petrol one is there a preferred / most economical engine size or type to look out for? I also had an 07 zafira for a while and quite liked the fact the rear bench of seats could all be slid backwards / forwards, does the SMAX have the same feature?

I have a roomster, the 1.6 petrol auto, it was bought to replace my dead Vauxhall  combo van when van prices were sky high. I really like it and with the rear seats out it has got a lot of storage space but I think it’s smaller than my MiL’s berlingo. We can get three bikes in the back with the front wheels off though. I’ll probably get rid of our decent car now and just keep the roomster. Check the electric windows work - it’s a Skoda weakness.

Middle row of SMax seats can be moved forwards/backwards. They are three separate seats so you can move them independently. When the kids were small I'd fold the centre seat down to give them a table / defensive barrier.

If we have somebody sat in the rear seats I'll move a couple of the middle seats forwards to give them somewhere to put their feet. Similarly if the rear seats are down and the boot is rammed with stuff I'll move all of the middle seats forwards to gain an extra few inches of load space.

Rear row are fixed and drop into the floor to give a flat load bed.

Toyota Verso for dull & reliable points? If it's big enough.

I'd probably favour an S-Max myself though.

Regarding the S-Max, might I suggest the Grand S-Max - a bit longer, but has the advantage of having sliding rear doors, so the roofline is flatter, when the rear hatch is open and the rear doors as well, you have a greater degree of weather protection when loading plus it’s easier to get stuff in through the side, and if the front doors are open practically the whole of the side is accessible.
You also get a heated screen, and they’re nice cars to drive.

Doblo has a fair bit of room - nice high position. Far from trendy. One of my pals drives me in his occasionally. He loves it. Bikes go in upright with forks tucked down behind front seats. Mines a long bike. Kenevo SL S5.
Shame the Ford autos aren’t good. I rather like the SMax.
Toyota RAV would be reliable. It’s a consideration.

@countzero

is that not a Grand C-Max?

We have a vauxhall combo life XL

7 seats

2/3/2

Back Row come out individually

Middle row fold flat individually

With the back row out and the middle seat down I can wheel in 2 29ers.

So versatile and a nice place to be!

is that not a Grand C-Max?

it is, which is smaller than an s-max

I also had an 07 zafira for a while and quite liked the fact the rear bench of seats could all be slid backwards / forwards, does the SMAX have the same feature?

the zafira tourer has an option (might be on all cars) of "lounge seating" - where on top of sliding forwards and backwards, the middle seat folds into an armrest and the 2 edge seats slide even further back, and inwards, to get even more space - pretty similar to (swb) S-class space in that config. Completely worthless, as you only ever really put kids in the back, but there ya go.

the pre-facelift zafira tourer has a rubbish satnav (and some don't have bluetooth for music iirc, so worth checking that's there), we just use our phones, whereas the more recent ones (different headlights, 2016 onwards from memory) which should be creeping into budget have android auto which is much better.

Funny, I did a search specifically for the Grand S-Max, ‘cos I know the Grand C-Max is smaller, I’ve driven both of them, hence my suggestion. I’ll do another search, see what it throws up.

Right, despite the image search heading saying Grand S-Max, practically all of the images are Grand C-Max, and I was looking at the pictures, and not paying attention to the caption. Sorry ‘bout that.

I have a 2017 galaxy, I like it. Can put 3 bikes and 3 people inside without fuss, but you do need to remove the front wheels.

Nice to drive, nothing serious has gone wrong (battery died after covid from lack of use).

Sync 3 audio thing is a bit old now but android auto solves that.

It's our third galaxy. Have looked at vans but they never seem as nice to be in.

@didnthurt

£4k is 16 months worth of £250pm leasing. Then what?

Unimog Doka. Perfect 7 seater school run car.

https://ibb.co/tBJ12fD
https://ibb.co/Rv82fV2
https://ibb.co/m9fhd0R

Not sure what your point is?

Leasing for me is so less stressful. A car to me is an essential appliance. I like having the same outlay each month, with no worries about the car breaking down and having to have an expensive repair. Same with MOTs, servicing, brakes and tyres. When they're worn then they get replaced as part of the deal. You just contact the lease company and they arrange everything. And at the end of the lease, you don't have any hassle with selling the car and worrying about finance or having to deal with people when selling.

Here's an example of how leasing saved me hundreds of pounds this year. I had a double puncture miles from a garage, I just rang up my leasing company and they arranged for the car to be transported (along with my son and I) 20 odd miles to the garage and replaced the two tyres with no additional charge for me. I was told by the garage that I was lucky that my car had the full maintenance lease package. I've also had an mot, a service, a full set of tyres, full set of brake pads and discs. The car was collected and dropped off each time.

I find it better, but maybe other people like the idea that they own something especially when they're outlaying a lot of money (after all cars are expensive).

Better pros and cons here:

https://www.theaa.com/car-leasing/leasing-guides/pros-and-cons-of-leasing-a-car

Also remember that the average maintenance cost of a car is approx £500 per annum, so this would need to be factored in when buying.

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/average-cost-run-car-uk

In classic recommend what you have,

We had a 60 plate zafira b. Classic box on wheels. Perfect space. But we replaced dual mass flywheel, had the gearbox rebuilt twice endless egr issues and it finally snapped the belt in the M1 and destroyed itself. A little put off vauxhall, we get an 18 plate Touran. For us, the bikes and the dog it's ideal and not too cumbersome to be the wife's daily driver.

Not sure what your point is?

You said it yourself, many of us want to own our vehicle - and are happy to be responsible for it. Your suggested figure of £500pa rings true, perhaps slightly higher for someone like me currently running a 17-year-old car.

£3k a year to rent a car just doesn't make sense to me, but I get that it will to some.

I was use to having a company car so when I needed to have my own car for work, I wanted something reliable (job can require visiting different sites) so meant quite new, but didn't have a spare £12k+ to buy something. Nor did I want to get into a finance agreement where I was having to borrow a large sum of money for a depreciating asset (whose value at the end of the finance period is not certain). My current leased car retails for over £30k, there is no way I would want to get into debt for that much.

Lastly, when I leased my car, I did it based on a higher mileage than what I ending up needing so wouldn't have any nasty over mileage costs at the end of the lease period. But as I'm in my last year of my lease, I contacted the lease company to reduce my mileage and they ended up cutting my monthly hire by about 40%.

"A loan is generally considered bad debt if you're borrowing to purchase a depreciating asset. In other words, if it won't go up in value or generate income, then you shouldn't go into debt to buy it. This includes clothes, cars, and most other consumer goods"

This always comes to mind when I'm car or bike shopping. But if you've got the cash then maybe buying will work out cheaper for you in the long run.

A loan is generally considered bad debt if you’re borrowing to purchase a depreciating asset. In other words, if it won’t go up in value or generate income, then you shouldn’t go into debt to buy it. This includes clothes, cars, and most other consumer goods

What a load of nonsense. A loan is a useful tool to buy something you don't have the money for at the moment, but will later on. There's costs involved, but just because a car depreciates does not make it a "bad debt", any more so than a whopping mortgage on an appreciating house is a "good debt"

All I can offer is thst I'd not touch a Zafira with someone else's barge pole, let alone my own.

From experience, whilst the interior layout and comfort was good... it was a real POS from an engineering, maintenance  and reliability viewpoint.   EVERYTHING seemed compromised (like heating, cooling, air con, ventilation etc) just to fit it in the too-small available space under and in front of the dash.  Too cold, too hot, too steamed up etc. Anything and everything inaccessible to maintain... even a light bulb was a PITA to change.

Oh and the engine emissions claptrap a total liability. I lost count how many times I get a sudden 70% loss of power and a limb home mode - but to the level I carried an OBD reader with me st all times to reset if in the middle of nowhere.  EGR replacement as often as an oil change.

Don't say we didn't warn you !

Zafari Oil filter change - Jack up the car, remove the undertray, this may require you to remove the front wheels, connect a bit of pipe to the back of the engine to drain some of the oil but remove the oil plug to remove the rest, cover the exhaust pipes before removing the actual filter to catch drops, do not warm the engine beforte hand (like EVERY other car recommends) or you will burn your arm on the hot exhaust and any oil that does drip might cause a fire.

Reassembly is the reverse of assembly.

Yeah, not designed for easy maintenance

why don't you just suck the oil out of the dipstick tube like pretty much all garages do? no need to faff about under the car.

"petrol would be much better (I think) due to occasionally using ULEZ roads because diesel, DPF and all that other oddness just rattles my my brain a bit plus my mileage (I don’t think) really warrants it unless I’m missing something?!?"

It's hard work for the smaller petrol-engined MPVs to move a car that heavy when fully loaded. Our Zafira Tourer is my first diesel car and the engine suits it - and being 170bhp with lots of torque it never feels like it struggling, it's quite quick really.

I hate the idea of leasing a car - I'm much happier buying something secondhand and running it into the ground, with no worries about that time my toddler decided to draw a chalk picture on the black paintwork...

[i]why don’t you just suck the oil out of the dipstick tube like pretty much all garages do? no need to faff about under the car.[/]

That would solve the 2 step process for emptying the oil - providing I bought an oil sucker that fitted etc.

It doesn't stop you needing to remove the car undertray to change the filter, or the oil dripping onto the exhaust and risk of welding your forearm to the exhaust pipe.

Agree with the comment above and bout the diesel engine suiting the heavy lump of car. That does work.

We had a '08 Peugeot 5008. It drove really nicely, as opposed to whatever engine boblo had. Don't write them off.

We only got rid as we couldn't cope with the lack of space (compared to a LWB T5) so I sold it and got a LWB T6. Sorry that's not exactly your remit but the 5008 was a bargain compared the the comparable S-Max's we saw (all knackered) and Sharans (all high mileage ex-taxis or just £££).

If you want big and spacious / very very roomy: Galaxy or Sharan/Albhamammamammamambbbamamra

If you want more 'car size' - SMax

7 seater, goes to 5 seats or two seats at the touch of a button 😉

Not quite as practical as some of the suggestions though...

CountZero

Funny, I did a search specifically for the Grand S-Max, ‘cos I know the Grand C-Max is smaller, I’ve driven both of them, hence my suggestion. I’ll do another search, see what it throws up.

Right, despite the image search heading saying Grand S-Max, practically all of the images are Grand C-Max, and I was looking at the pictures, and not paying attention to the caption. Sorry ‘bout that.

I'm pretty sure there never was a Grand S-Max? The Seat Alhambra (Ford Galaxy/VW Sharan derivative) did have sliding rear doors IIRC but that's a whole platform bigger.

@didnthurt

My point was that the OP has £4k to spend on a car. That gets 16 months of lease at £250pm. What would the OP do after that? Their budget has been used up and I expect they want a car for more than 16 months.

I get the appeal of leasing. Will consider it for us in the future, especially an EV. Can you spec a towbar?

You can ask the lease company whatever you like, but often the best deals are on cars that are already available. But that's the same when buying new. Now using the car to tow a trailer migh incur an additional cost due to additional wear and tear. Just speak with them.

Think I’ve narrowed it down to a petrol grand c-max

quick question for anyone with experience of these

1.0 engine or 1.6 engine? Is there much of a difference in performance / fuel economy / reliability?

Ford 1.0 ecoboom?

On your budget you want to the most old school / biggest capacity / unstressed engine for maximum longevity. Not a highly stressed 1litre turbo charged time bomb.

7 seater, goes to 5 seats or two seats at the touch of a button ?

Hopefully they borrowed the mechanism from the Ford Galaxy, rather than coming up with their own then 😉

I had a Grand C Max back in 2011 for a few years, but it was a 2.0 diesel, so sorry no experience with the petrol engines. That engine made sense as I was doing alot of motorway miles back then, still miss those sliding doors and heated windscreen.

1.0 engine or 1.6 engine? Is there much of a difference in performance / fuel economy / reliability?

We have the 1.0 in our c-max, it's okish performance wise but the mpg is woeful around town, I guess because it's a small engine moving a fairly heavy car. Plus the cambelt is a very expensive job.

I do love this forum- I want a cheap 7 seater MPV- lease a brand new 5 seater EV-get a 5 seater est car.