[Closed] Where was health and safety in 1961

Well, at least they are wearing helmets... 🙄

Quite why tho', I have no idea.

Jamie! This pic needs men in yellow coats!

Eek.

And in a suit

"Alright then, who nicked the bridge?"

It's also a sodding long way over to the other side when clinging to a cable.

Meh - I'd do it. Looks like a calm day.

Looks a bit like the image of empire state building workers sat on a beam, And I can see at least 2 safety boats H&S sorted then

Were they three of the seven people who died during its construction?

You been up the Eiffel Tower and seen the stairs to the top that were used before the lifts were installed ? Horrifying.

The days before the blame society, and when common sense prevailed .

The days before the blame society, and when common sense prevailed .

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=1961-03-27a.944.6

when common sense prevailed

Indeed. Now they would expect safety harnesses to be worn.....how mad is that ?!!!

I wonder if they chucked there belts over the wire and slid down like they do in the films when they had finished there shift.

[i]The days before the blame society, and when common sense prevailed . [/i]

And whoever thinks this, has never worked in heavy engineering, mining or quarrying...

And whoever thinks this, has never worked [s]in heavy engineering, mining or quarrying...[/s]

FTFY.

my walk to school used to be worse than that

The days before the blame society, and when common sense prevailed .

And whoever thinks this, has never worked in heavy engineering, mining or quarrying...

...or had to tell a 19 year old that he has lost his right arm, or had to tell a mother that her son is dead.

Common sense?..

To me extent the point above is valid but nowadays its gone beyond reason. Therefore the objections of many as happens when things get taken to extreme.

but nowadays its gone beyond reason

Examples?

The health and safety framework is a good one, but like anything else it has to be managed and implemented well. The stupid stories you hear are nothing to do with legislation, just people in charge being dim.

[i]To me extent the point above is valid but nowadays its gone beyond reason[/i]

people not dying because of the work they do is: "beyond reason"? Weird POV

I can't imagine working on a structure where every day you look down on this:

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Eeeeeek! 😯

Ah remember the days when our forebears worked for the owner, paid rent to the owner, got paid in tokens they could use only in the factory owners shops. Today they have to educate us, not work our children and worse they cannot even kill us even though it is cheaper than providing protection

H & S gone mad.

Yeah, that's my idea of common sense, you'd never get me up there in the first place

The days before the blame society, and when common sense prevailed .

Time for this video again...

That the mast climber vid? The bit right at the top is bonkers!
Even though he's got two safety clips its just pegs that they're slipped over!
Mind you- the one with russian kids doing pull-ups near the top of one is probably worse..

Yep I wish we could go back to the days where killing people before friday saved you paying them. Saves on pensions, NHS and all that

H&S gorn maaad i tellls you.

asbestos
mines
building sites
construction

which would be better without modern H&S

The issue as I see it is that because the laws surrounding H&S (guilty until proven innocent) are the wrong way round, it's become an arse covering game. The people who end up the buck stopping with them are generally admin drones, who don't have a full understanding of the tasks being carried out that they are trying to make safe so go overboard with the risk assessments.

Mind you- the one with russian kids doing pull-ups near the top of one is probably worse..

Don't....I find these threads compelling but so scary, I really don't like heights. You only have to type Russian kids doing pull ups, I know what you mean, and my palms start to sweat.

Yes as it's all about arse covering and finding people guilty before they're innocent, it's not about making sure people are safe at work.

You only need compare the 'date of guilty knowledge' and the date actions were taken to prevent injury tonworkers in a few cases to see that without modern health and safety employers have generally carried on harming their workers without outside pressure.

On the coal health scheme that paid compensation for copd caused by coal dust British coal was considered to have been aware of the risk of copd in miners from june 1954 - respirators were not then compulsory at the coal face until the 1980's

Asbestos is slightly different but the date of guilty knowledge is now thought to be in the 1930's for some industries and in the 1960s for domestic settings. The stuff wasnt banned totally until the 90s. Due to the length of time it takes to develop mesothelioma we still havent hit the crest of the wave for that condition. And still there are debates about exposure rates - particuarly teachers who work in old poorly maintained buildings containing asbestos.

As I work in sheffield we have many clients who are the victims of industrial accidents - people would be horrified if they read some of the statements and accident reports - short cuts in working methods, faulty equipment etc. I used to be shocked reading how some employers behaved asuming things like that didnt happen in this day and age, but I have seen so many cases where there still appears to be little regard for the safety of the workers I sometimes wonder how much has changed.

Wonder if that's where the idea for this came from?

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Bothered me for years that the perspective seemed wrong, they're stood perpendicular to a fairly steep slope. Looking at that first image though, hmm...

I've go several books on the construction of the Forth Road Bridge - there's loads of photos like that. My favourite is one bloke standing at the end of a girder, stretching out to grab another girder that's hanging from a crane. His safety backup is his mate standing behind him holding his collar 😉

The attitude used to be that workers are adults and responsible for their own safety.

The attitude used to be that workers are adults and [s]responsible for their own safety[/s] easily replaceable.

Yeah, that too. Though I honestly think that most employers didn't think that way - they thought that making workers do what we'd call H&S stuff was none of their business.

Which is why it was right that the government stepped in to ensure risks were managed in a reasonable way.

Working on farms in NZ many years ago, there were always old boys who eschewed any form of what they would now perhaps call health and safety nannyism - guards would be left off prop shafts and elevators, throttle safety releases held open with twine, etc. they believed the safety measures were unnecessary and slowed things down / made the job harder.

Yes, I was (nominally!) an adult and responsible for my own safety, equally I was the new boy in a macho (for want of a better word) culture that saw value in deliberately not mitigating the risks which existed in the working environment.

The girder boys may have believed they were taking responsibility for their own safety, but at the same time it may just have been that they needed work, this was the work they could do and they had no ability (either knowledge or company support) to properly assess and mitigate (sorry, couldn't think of a synonym!) the risks they faced.

H&S by and large has been a good thing and transformed safety at work, especially for dangerous jobs. My dad has worked on North Sea rigs for the last 30yrs and the H&S aftermath following Piper Alpha has had a huge impact and now the North Sea operations are by far the safest in the world, though still risky by its very nature.

But as with most things it can be taken too far and its all down to companies exposure to people claiming. The most recent example of this madness in my company is we now have to have our tea from a cup that has a lid so we have to drink our brew out of a straw or disposable coffee mug slit, all because someone spilt hot tea over their hand when walking back to their desk. Last week someone tripped up on their untied laces so now i'm waiting for the new edict that we all have to wear slip on shoes or shoes with velcro straps.

With these more minor things there has got to be a point where people say "Well that was you're own silly fault wasn't it? You need to be more careful". The one that gets me is people claiming for tripping up. Look where you're going! They were probably updating their Facebook site while walking at the time anyway.

Alot of this sillyness is not driven by H&S but by lawyers. They've got to feather their nests somehow.

Yes, the problem with the old attitudes is that they assume employer and employee are on an equal footing - which would be lovely if it were true but almost always isn't.

I'm not saying the old attitudes were right, by the way, I just don't think they were because of evil employers.

Though it does make me glad I work for myself and have no employees - as long as I don't kill any customers I can basically do what I like 😉

I'm not saying the old attitudes were right, by the way, I just don't think they were because of evil employers.

Absolutely agree!

Makes a mental note to be very careful about ever doing business with bencooper. 😉

I just don't get the photo ?

Why are they there ? In suits ? Where have they been checking and why?

Any further away from the tension of the platform where the photographer stands and the two wires would be too unstable.

A staged photo which in today's apparent H&S cosseting.. Iam sure still goes on today!?

Makes a mental note to be very careful about ever doing business with bencooper.

It's okay - stay on your side of the speedbump and you'll be fine 😉

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Nice vice there, Ben!

Alot of this sillyness is not driven by H&S but by lawyers. They've got to feather their nests somehow.

Is that a legal term ?

I worked on a major construction site where a joiner cut his finger whilst sharpening a pencil.
What did you think the client did?
Did they insist on a toolbox talk on knives?
No, they banned all knives. On a 35 million pound scheme.

Edit: it was however a very safe place to be and the HSE would bring others there to show how a construction site should be run

Quite right to ban knifes. Most places I've worked banned them years ago. Why anyone would sharpen a pencil with a knife rather than say a pencil sharpener is beyond me.

Carpenters tend to use Stanly knives rather than pencil sharpeners, standard pencil sharpeners don't work on carpenters pencils.

Nice vice there, Ben!

Cheers 😉 It's a 1942 Wilton, special import from the US. I also have a couple of Swindens, they're lovely...

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Most places I've worked banned them years ago

Yes of course they did.

Knives have been banned offshore for a very long time. The only exception being the galley.

A standard pencil sharpener might not work but as they retail at about £2 for a carpenters sharpener there really isn't any reason to use a knife.

A standard pencil sharpener might not work but as they retail at about £2 for a carpenters sharpener there really isn't any reason to use a knife.

Except that a sharpener specifically for carpenters pencils actually undermines some of the advantage a carpenters pencil has over ordinary pencils.

The main advantage a carpenters pencil has over an ordinary pencil is that a much greater surface of lead makes contact. If you use a pencil sharpener on them it will round off the lead and dramatically reduce surface of lead that makes contact.

A stanly knife is required to get the maximum advantage out of a carpenters pencil.

Maybe things haven't really changed that much.....

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So the guy having a seat is roped in, but what about the photog?

Real carpenters use their chisels, sharper than a Stanley any day.

So can pencil sharpners cut floor coverings and the likes etc?Just think of all aspects of construction where a knife is needed.

Hang about, are you seriously telling me no-ones been able to design a sharpener for a Carpenter's pencil that does the job??! *Sets-off to make fortune*

The thin blade of a stanly knife gives you far more control to correctly scallop the end of the pencil than a chisel ever will. The secret is to expose the maximum amount of lead whilst maintaining the integrity of the pencil. Careful scalloping will achieve this.

My first thought about the photo was that it looked like a band's album photo...

We had exactly this recently... Production worker using automatic retracting blade Stanley managed to slip as he cut some packaging.
Cue managers call for total ban on open blades (including maintenance staff), maintenance team already have a good choice of 'safety' tools, but unfortunately the majority are simply shite - I don't actually know of a single one that makes the job easier/better, and I have known people injured more by some such as the poly pipe cutters...

Completely ignored was the fact that the blade in the operators knife was as sharp as the managers who decided blades should be banned and that the packaging only needed cutting because it was incompatible with our machine (ain't central procurement great!) or that the blunt knife was used in a very amateur fashion.

Two weeks later, the receptionist cuts herself - how? - cutting a doughnut with a 10" carving knife she has in her drawer, just in case!

Much the same as the usual hearing protection issue - here's some ear plugs... Never will the first suggestion be anything but.

My favourite comment H&S wise is that PPE is designed for contractors - they are unable to change their working environment so must use PPE to lower the consequences of the hazards present. Permanent employees should not need PPE on a regular basis because the hazard should be able to be controlled at source.