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@eosamh77 & @brads - at some point Sturgeon will go, it may be in the next few days or in 10 years time. However the problem she has is that some of a credibility is starting to wear off. She appears weaker and others, inside and outside of the SNP, will start to challenge her. When Labour ran Scotland, no one could see the SNP in charge for an extended period.
The SNP at the moment in many peoples eyes appears to the Sturgeon party, especially since her husband is the chief exec. So her actions are amplified and have a greater impact on the SNP and eth Scottish Government. Both suffer for the fact that there are limited options beyond Sturgeon, there is no identified replacement for when she will go. And she is starting to alienate some of her front bench and force them out.
As an Englishman think she has done a great job in communication about the actions to manage the pandemic in Scotland and is a order of magnitude better than most of the shower in Westminster. She has done brilliantly to build on the work done by Salmond for an iScotland. But this 'squabble' between them over a technicality could finish all that. As an example Blair is hated for taking the UK into an illegal war, rather then celebrated for his part in the Good Friday agreement.
There’s a certain type of Englander that gets his or her Fanny full of sand when it comes to Sturgeon. And I love her for it. 😀
I actually hate homophobic attitudes
Interesting phraseology
I thought she came over very well. The actual presentation of facts was good, and more credible than the few highlights shown on news bulletins. Much more so than Salmond, and more articulate and objective than some of the Inquiry representatives’ approach
The inquiry representatives came across as useless. Like people that had been asked to stand in at the last minute.
sadmadalan,
I've been saying similarly about a succession plan for Sturgeon for some time. The reality is none of the opposition has a credible alternative first minister either! IMO this debacle will be her undoing, but I sincerely hope she doesn't go now - and leave John Swinney to muddle through until after May. I'm not sure who on the front bench you think is alienated - could they just be distancing so that if she has to go they can take the reins without having been too close?
If she was forced out (which I think could only happen if the greens were willing to support a motion of no confidence), who do you think would become leader? Realistically that person is going to the be first minister in June - albeit if it goes really badly possibly with a significant minority government.
Er that's rubbish re no obvious successor, if I was Queen of Scotland and could name the next leader how about Kate Forbes?
Or did you mean no obvious male successor? The misogyny is strong in this thread, I would start a "where is the Nicola Sturgeon thread" thread as it seems wrong and ironic that we are discussing her in Salmond's thread. But I have to go to work!
I'd agree with the Kate Forbes recommendation if she was a wee bit older, but maybe it would be a good idea regardless.
I believe that Angus Robertson is the annointed one, though that would need to be after the My election.
I can’t see why someone’s sexuality is apparently a “skeleton in the closet”
WGAF
My impressions of meeting them both is that you would have liked Salmond to organise your stag and NS to organise your wedding. I have always kind of felt the same when it came to running the country.
you would have liked Salmond to organise your stag
I can't imagine anything worse
NS is definitely damaged now and I think she will survive this but unless there's a successful indy referendum she only has one more term as leader at the most.
unless there’s a successful indy referendum she only has one more term as leader at the most
I’d have thought that was true even without the current goings on. I’d agree with Kate Forbes as potential future leader material, but think she’d really need several more years learning her craft as a politician before she steps up.
I did wonder if wee Alec fancied his chances of another go - is he that that detached from reality to think he’d succeed with Indyref 2 after failing first time round?
sadmadalan
Full Member
@eosamh77 & @brads – at some point Sturgeon will go, it may be in the next few days or in 10 years time.
😆
I can’t see why someone’s sexuality is apparently a “skeleton in the closet”
WGAF
It's something they can attack them on later. Claim bias or such.
awaits the outraged Tories demanding Patel resigns...........
I know its nit the same but worst possible timing for the Sturgeon haters!
Or let's not talk about the Westminster government spending £1million trying to avoid a judicial review into the PPE tendering process
No SNP Baaad!
SQUIRREL!!
There’s a certain type of Englander that gets his or her Fanny full of sand when it comes to Sturgeon. And I love her for it. 😀
You've just described the entire readership of the Daily Mail 😆 They hate her as much as Harry and Megan.
NS is definitely damaged now
That'll be why SNP membership is up thousands overnight then?
@dovebiker yes that caught me by surprise a bit. I'm pleased that there has been such a reaction to her evidence session though I am not sure why, perhaps people reacted to the unfair treatment she gets in the media. For me as a long time indy supporter and an SNP member there are many things that NS should have sorted in her time as leader, eg her husbands position he should have moved on quickly after she was elected leader. Internal party democracy has also been damaged, and many members are frustrated about the current strategy on getting a referendum.
Or did you mean no obvious male successor? The misogyny is strong in this thread, I would start a “where is the Nicola Sturgeon thread” thread as it seems wrong and ironic that we are discussing her in Salmond’s thread. But I have to go to work!
No I simply meant no obvious credible successor - I personally would like to see Kate Forbes as FM but she’s only held one senior cabinet position and for a short time; and only cos her predecessor got the heave ho. It’s quite a leap from Finance Secretary for a year or so, to FM. In fact I predicted to myself that she might end up as the next FM but that was before the current debacle, which might bring forward a change.
Compare it to Nicola who had been in Education and whatever Enterprise was called that month, and Dep first min for 7 yrs. The only people I can think of with that sort of exposure are Swinney and Humza. I think the bookies were backing Humza, I’m not sure if that’s any better than Angus Robertson who I guess does have broad coverage and plenty of years experience - but has not been in government as such (it’s not like an opposition coming in who can just blame the other party). Joanna Cherry would probably be the other name to crop up. She might be popular with the party faithful but she’s not a vote winner.
You can start a NS thread if you want but since this is talking about the AS debacle I’m not sure there’s much point in doing it somewhere else. If salmond wasn’t a chauvinist there wouldn’t even be a thread.
@dovebiker yes that caught me by surprise a bit. I’m pleased that there has been such a reaction to her evidence session though I am not sure why, perhaps people reacted to the unfair treatment she gets in the media.
Does seem strange - I did wonder if people were smelling a leadership election and getting their chance to vote in (either for NS or someone else).
Yeah 5000 new SNP members in 24 hrs is a bit fishy
Be interesting to see what the indy polling says in the coming weeks
There was a wee propeller plane flying over Edinburgh with a #resignsturgeon banner today.
Wtf?
Free Member
There was a wee propeller plane flying over Edinburgh with a #resignsturgeon banner today.Wtf?
I remember seeing "Vote Brexit" banner on the day of the ref flying over Milton Keynes, it gave me a bad feeling at the time
I dont think Sturgeon has to worry though
#resignsturgeon
I suspect she’ll be resigned in May on a new 5 year contract!
Whats the verdict on Sturgeons evidence? I thought she got the tone right and apologised for errors but rather too much convenient memory lapses.
Even the anti scotland anti snp media are having difficulty nailing her for anything that came out of the day
To me it all depends on the report from the committee. Just a flesh wound on her so far and IMO she did rather better than Salmond but a critical report could still do for her
She's done well saying that victims of Salmonds abuse have been let down, it keeps salmond looking the shady one.
She managed 8hrs of questioning often looking much more clued up than those questioning her
Latest evidence that scot gov pressed on against legal advice for 3? weeks or so is bad, but not damming, her memory lapses were not convincing.
What's really saved her is that in the last week Patel has wasted £370k of taxpayers money on her own legal farce
Johnson was found to have lied to the commons about disclosure of PPE contracts, despite a court order.
Johnsons spent 200k on a designer refit of No 10, 2.5 million on a propaganda centre for Allegra Stratton
The Tories have picked a fight with nurses they just spent a year idolising...
Ultimately
Corruption at Westminster has made a tricky job for her that much easier
victims of Salmonds abuse
Sorry, did I miss that trial?
Sorry, did I miss that trial?
Seriously?
And then folk wonder why abuse vitims have a hard time coming forward.
Abuse isn't subject to a criminal test you know.
He was found not guilty though.
If you want to be subject to the law then what's the point in ignoring it when it doesn't go your way?.
And that's from someone who cannae stand him.
Salmond was found not guilty of a criminal offense.
Now I know its the court of public opinion but enough people have come forward with credible stories of him being a groper that I for one accept he is.
His own admitted behaviour is enough to label him a groper.
Edit - of course Sturgeon must have know this and to some extent enabled his behaviour by ignoring it.
That was my point
By saying his accusers had been failed & emphasising it more than once, attention is drawn to salmonds reprehensible (if not illegal) behaviour, Sturgeon is putting herself on the side of those accusers.
Helping re-enforce a narrative that she was concerned only with taking down a sexual predator etc
In the midst of the metoo moment, being seen to aggressively ditch sleazy salmond by any means isn't necessarily a bad position
She's a canny operator
By saying his accusers had been failed & emphasising it more than once, attention is drawn to salmonds reprehensible (if not illegal) behaviour, Sturgeon is putting herself on the side of those accusers.
Pity she didn't ensure the discipline process was lawful then.
Shame the notes of a meeting between Sturgeon and the lawyers have been "lost" or we might know more about her actions rather than her rhetoric.
"The Government's claimed it had no minutes of a key meeting at which the First Minister and her officials discussed the case with the external lawyers."
enough people have come forward with credible stories of him being a groper
Name one.
Pity she didn’t ensure the discipline process was lawful then.
That’s not her responsibility - the screwed-up investigation is down to the Permanent Secretary, a civil servant. It’s only the media and people who don’t understand how Governments work who are trying to blame her. The legal case was fatally damaged by other’s decisions like the selection of the investigation officer - nothing to do with Sturgeon who quite rightly would have been keeping an arm’s length on proceedings.
nothing to do with Sturgeon who quite rightly would have been keeping an arm’s length on proceedings.
Or not, as the case may be lol.
There is quite a legit argument to say she should have nothing to do with the investigation
But she was in charge, even if not directly at fault,?, she bears responsibility
This has damaged Sturgeons credibility, but she seems to have ridden it out
Whether it will really effect elections in May remains to be seen (Greens see that as the bigger picture & are backing her)
the reality is that corruption in Westminster right now provides her with plenty of cover
That’s not her responsibility – the screwed-up investigation is down to the Permanent Secretary, a civil servant.
The civil servant who cocked up the investigation then got her contract extended by Sturgeon?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/leslie-evans-top-civil-servant-to-stay-until-2022-9hf7kqr8b
Sturgeons biggest mistake IMO was meeting with Salmond at all let alone being vague about what happened when. As soon as she knew the nature of the allegations she should have completely distanced herself from him.
One thing to consider - this shows the apparatus of state and the checks and balances at Holyrood working well. If this had been westminster neither of the investigations would have happened so publicly. The FM getting grilled live on camera?
One thing to consider – this shows the apparatus of state and the checks and balances at Holyrood working well.
You think? When the Lord Advocate censors committee evidence that is openly published elsewhere meaning the committee can't consider it.
When the Lord Advocate is both head of the legal system and a member of govt.
When the Lord Advocate giving evidence starts by telling MSPs that — unlike MPs — they are ‘punishable’ under the law for statements they may make in parliament. No parliamentary priveledge here.
When the Lord Advocate refuses to answer when asked if it is against the law to fail to comply with a search warrant.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-sturgeon-case-exposes-the-fatal-flaw-in-scottish-devolution
😂 😂 Trying to make an argument and quoting the Spectator as a reputable source, you may as well use the Daily Mail!
Trying to make an argument and quoting the Spectator as a reputable source,
I see you are not disputing anything in the article though.
The spectator article falls flat not because its wrong about what it says about Sturgeon (hyberbole aside)
But because pretty much every single point it raises, with faux outrage, exactly the same (& more) has been done by their bot Johnson, to which the cast a blind eye
Eg first point it raises- 'unimaginable' that the AG refused to comment on hypothetical crimes of msps, while Suella Braverman who advised Johnson to illegally break the law & lie to the Queen, then complained the supreme Court was politicising it!, she also tweeted in defence of cummings whilst a police investigation was ongoing
It doesnt put Sturgeon in the right but its laughable hypocrisy
It seems that a number of other countries use the same system as Scotland where the most senior legal officer is a minister of the government. USA and Australia to name a couple. The UK also ran with the very same system in place, regarding Scots law until the devolved parliament took over.
IIRC Alex Salmond split the two roles when he was FM. It was Nicola Sturgeon that reversed it.
Makes you think...
You're right @Scotroutes. Lord Advocate now sits on cabinet meetings but without any official status, which doesn't seem a good state of affairs to me.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16399053.snp-government-row-presence-lord-advocate-cabinet-meetings/
Hamilton inquiry clears Sturgeon. Conservative no confidence vote will fail tomorrow and their election plans lie in tatters because ‘SNP baaaad’ doesn’t exactly win over many voters unless you wear a bowler hat and an orange sash. Oh well, no doubt we’ll have plenty of vitriol on the BBC tonight.
vaccine bounce will help tories more than this, even if she had been found to have breached it
I don't think the vaccine bounce will help the tories much in Scotland. Sturgeon benefits from that as well
The tories are in trouble because the stuff they based their last few campaigns on has blown up in their faces. fishing being one. they won seats on the back of protecting the fishing and now its gone down the pan they are going to lose seats on the back of it
to be clear I think less of Sturgeon for all this. she made clear serious errors in judgement. Meeting Salmond at all was a huge mistake. meeting him multiple times without proper record looks poor indeed.
I understand and accept her reasons for doing so but that does not excuse a major blunder.
No one comes out of this looking good
I'm sure D Ross will be releasing his apology soon 👍🏻🤣
And the leaker from the committee clearly will resign
That’s brilliant ^
The Tory party were very quiet in their calls for resignation when Priti Patel was found to have breached ministerial code. Their hypocrisy is staggering.
Sarah Smith trending on twitter as well 😂
https://twitter.com/search?q=%22Sarah%20Smith%22&src=trend_click&vertical=trends
🤣
Are we going to have an inquiry into the leaks from the committee including the testimony to the sunday times?
Will Ross. Starmer, Johnson. Baillie be calling for the resignation of those who leaked? They have breached the code of conduct for MSPs whoever the leaker is
I'm sure all the celebrations are perfectly justified in the context of party and that apparently was oblivious to a former leaders behaviour until a formal complaint was raised after he left office.
What's important is that the process followed.....
It goes to show that even in the closest of political relationships lasting decades that you never really know the person that you spend campaigning, working and social time with.
Im sure Starmer will happily do so if hes asked again
Ross really has boxed himself into a corner tho, repeatedly making it all about breaking ministerial code & resignation hes now looking foolish
Sturgeon has once again made sure she apologised to the victims/accusers and her handling of the case did let them down, but Ross & the press have made sure that is not the big story
The backlash will now fall on whichever MSPs leaked the testimonies & Ross is going to be looking very hypocritical if he doesnt enforce his own stance on breaking the ministerial code when/if they are outed
That blowback could well gift the SNP those crucial extra few % points come May
https://twitter.com/Sheilam19534814/status/1373836343176990724?s=20
Oops
https://twitter.com/andywightman/status/1372845924263866368?s=20
Looks like Alasdair Allan, Maureen Watt and Stuart McMillan all breached the MSPs code of conduct.
Indeed Oops
Will Holyrood go after the leakers?
Looks like Alasdair Allan, Maureen Watt and Stuart McMillan all breached the MSPs code of conduct.
Eh?
Edit - in what way have they? I don't see anything covered by the code in their statements. Rather different to giving testimony to the press and to leaking partial conclusions which clearly is
I don't understand what Douglas Ross is hoping for with the Vote of No Confidence?
Option 1. Sturgeon wins. He looks like a political shit-stirrer who is distracting the government from "its important work at this critical time".
Option 2. She loses. Then what she has to go as FM? - John Swinney becomes acting FM. Is that what he wants? He'd rather see Swinney than Sturgeon run the country when we are in a crisis... holy shit he must hate Scotland! Then there's a hurried leadership election before May. The hard core SNP will still vote SNP. Some sturgeon fans may not like the new leader, but its hard to imagine any of them turning around so much to vote for the tories that just ousted her, so he's presumably getting the other opposition parties a few more votes! However, there are plenty of people in Scotland who (a) don't like the bad smell around all of this AND/OR (b) really don't like Sturgeon even if they may have some SNP sympathies. Depending who the new leader was they may actually be more inclined to vote SNP with a new leadership/cabinet than endorse the current muddle.
So what does Douglas Ross get from the vote?
|He was hoping the Hamilton report would be critical of Sturgeon and the Greens would vote for the no confidence motion
I'd guess the SNP want this to be over as soon as possible, so dragging it out any more will just leave more room for negatives, i think the saving grace for the SNP and voters is that Nicola Sturgeon is more likeable than Alex Salmond, god knows what is next is this saga, as the fallout between the two of them isn't over yet i bet!
So what does Douglas Ross get from the vote?
Air time, it's hard to compete against the daily party political broadcast covid update
A pat on the head from his handlers in Westminster ^ and a sticker saying “I’m a very good Tory”
I suspect Ross gets to say 'he tried' before being replaced as Tory leader after they lose seats in May
https://twitter.com/WhatScotsThink/status/1373908665082724355?s=19
|He was hoping the Hamilton report would be critical of Sturgeon and the Greens would vote for the no confidence motion
Yep
The rugs been pulled from under his feet on that one!
Bit of naughty editing on Wiki
Willie Rennie as ever manages to come out of it looking like an absolute prick. "The judgement from James Hamilton does not make the first minister’s resignation automatic" . Oh well, that's very good of you to say so. What a roaster... Especially considering he stood behind Alistair Carmichael's shitehawkery.
I suspect Ross gets to say ‘he tried’ before being replaced as Tory leader
I'm sure it's already been done on this thread but I did have to chuckle this evening on hearing the nickname Forres Gimp being used for him. Sums him up perfectly.
Sensible comment from Sarwar
Anas Sarwar, the Scottish Labour leader, distanced his party from the Tories and indicated Labour would not back the Tory no confidence motion. “Unlike others, we have been clear from the outset that we would not prejudge the outcome of this inquiry,” he said.
“What is clear is that this entire process has deeply damaged public trust in our politics at a time of national crisis, and there are absolutely no winners today. At the heart of this are two women who have been badly let down by the government, and it remains the case that nobody has taken responsibility.”
doubling down on stupidity from Ross
Douglas Ross, the Scottish Tory leader, said his party did not agree with Hamilton’s assessment Sturgeon had an understandable memory lapse.
Douglas Ross, the Scottish Tory leader, said his party did not agree with Hamilton’s assessment Sturgeon had an understandable memory lapse.
The real memory lapse is the 20years before the allegations were made that nothing at all happened before the first alleged activity and that she neither saw or knew of such activities
Or did Salmond suddenly resort to his inappropriate behaviour out of the blue?
Air time, it’s hard to compete against the daily
party political broadcastcovid update
He could try having something to say - then presumably someone would broadcast that. Of course its difficult for him to say anything which (a) isn't bonkers AND (b) isn't perceived as agreeing with the SNP AND (c) isn't in contradiction with the UK position. Obviously the middle of the 3 being the greatest sin possible. The funny thing is that the people/press who seem most upset about any party political element are the same people who keep asking stupid political questions each day... and probably the same people who would complain that the gov are not communicating their message effectively if the meetings were stopped.
I suspect Ross gets to say ‘he tried’ before being replaced as Tory leader after they lose seats in May
Is this like School where everyone gets a shot of being the Milk Monitor?
Sarwar is smart - he realises that the absolute haters are probably going to vote Tory and not change their view, and the hardcore nats will vote SNP no matter what, so his best chance is to mop up the people disgruntled with the lot of them - who just want them to run the country and stop bickering over something which really is of interest only to the politically sensitive, rather than the masses.
Now that one is a very good point.
My guess? It was not "seen" for two reasons - one his power and two " its just Alex being Alex" Its also possible that he hid it well and / or the behaviour got more blatant over the years
But thats only my guess.
Harvie /statement
He pulls no punches
“I’ve never seen a committee process more compromised by leaks, MSPs pre-judging the evidence, and party politics over-riding the public interest. What should have been an examination of how women were failed and how we could prevent that from happening again has turned into a complete farce.
“There were serious questions that needed to be answered by this committee, that’s why we supported its creation, but it’s clear that a number of committee members have absolutely no interest in establishing the facts or seeking to create a supportive environment for women to bring forward complaints. Instead they have bought into Alex Salmond’s conspiracy hook, line and sinker in the hope of securing a political scalp.
“It’s also clear that a number of members of the committee have breached the MSP code of conduct by leaking information to the media. Perhaps more astonishing is that committee members actually giving TV interviews in the midst of their deliberations.
“This week a complainer felt it necessary to issue a statement via Rape Crisis Scotland after David Davis MP took to his feet in the Commons to use parliamentary privilege to throw around yet more of Alex Salmond’s conspiracy theories. It is utterly disgraceful that the women at the heart of this saga have been so let down by the process that they’ve felt the need to do this.
"The Scottish Greens have said throughout that we will examine both the committee report and the Hamilton ministerial code inquiry before drawing any conclusions. Despite the indefensible behaviour of members of the Committee we are still willing to do so, but their actions have clearly destroyed the credibility of their own report before anyone has had the chance to read it."
I think Harvie has hit the nail on the head with a few of his statements on this.
Committee report is out ( being discussed on the Guardian blog)
The final section of the committee’s report covers the Ministerial Code. The committee agreed that James Hamilton’s report is the most appropriate place to address the question of whether or not the first minister has breached the Scottish ministerial code
so thats Sturgeon out of danger given Hamilton clearly stated she did not breach the ministerial code
It was right that the Scottish government reviewed its procedures; indeed, it would have been extremely remiss if they had not. It is clear there was a determination to change the culture of the organisation and to ensure everyone is treated with dignity and respect.
That Salmonds conspiracy theories blown right out of the water
Looks to me like Wightman has had a large part to play in the writing of the report and has done a good job in steering the report to be fair minded and to mitigate partisan ship from the rest of the members.
someone who IMO has had their reputation enhanced thru this.