You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Leave seemed to be running on the following promises, hopes, desires; call them what you will.
But, what are they now saying about them now they've won?
£350m for the NHS. That's already been dismissed as 'a mistake'
Will continue to pay all grants the EU pays to the sciences, farmers etc. Doubtful as Cornwall is finding out but we can wait and see.
Less immigration-Daniel Hannan is now saying there was never any promise to control immigration and he's open to the continuation of free movement of people within the EU. In any event he says there'll be no differences for some years.
More jobs - wait and see
Better wages - wait and see
Britain being able to make its own laws without outside influence. - wait and see.
Feel free to add any more I've forgotten...
£350m for the NHS. That's already been dismissed as 'a mistake'
I don't think that was ever actually said - more like that's 350m that we don't have control over - and suggestions as to what we could do with it.
For immigration control why can we not just say you need 'paperwork' to get benefits, use the NHS, work, etc in this country and the only way to get the 'paperwork' is to be official, and introduce very big fines for those employing 'unofficial' immigrants.
therefore the UK would be a lot less attractive for economic immigrants, and so eventually less would come.
The main issue is people destroying any evidence of where they came from, so they couldn't be ejected from the country.
The main issue is people destroying any evidence of where they came from, so they couldn't be ejected from the country.
I think you are confusing the legal migration under EU rules (all people have to show travel docs to enter) and illegal migration and finally people seeking asylum. They are 3 very different things, people from the EU didn't need to hide where they came from as they were able to work here legally. Leaving the EU won't address the other 2.
If you’re caught employing an illegal workeryou may get a civil penalty of up to £20,000 for each illegal worker
I don't understand how Leave could promise anything. They were not a party, so don't have a manifesto, and made up of many parties. The promises were just ideas that have no basis in reality, which will be exposed over the coming months.
I think you are confusing the legal migration under EU rules (all people have to show travel docs to enter) and illegal migration and finally people seeking asylum. They are 3 very different things, people from the EU didn't need to hide where they came from as they were able to work here legally. Leaving the EU won't address the other 2.
why not.
If you want to work in this country you need a national insurance number, same for the NHS.
We can now be more choosy about who gets a national insurance number, so we can give them out to people seeking asylum or to skilled labour if we so choose.
Anyone without a national insurance number is illegal.
simples.
@TurnerGuy - OK they didn't explicitly say it but the battle bus was so worded that the common populous would infer it
[Img] 
[/img]
It's a very dishonest way of doing things...
Leave seemed to be running on the following promises, hopes, desires; call them what you will.But, what are they now saying about them now they've won?
Remember, it was a referendum not an election; the country decided on the direction of travel, they didn't vote for the leave campaign. Policies will all come later.
I think the media can be blamed here, with their constant insistence on using terms like 'won' and 'lost'. Its not about winning, its about guaging public opinion.
It's a very dishonest way of doing things...
and the remain campaign kept going on about workers rights, and if you look into it (Checkws posts again...) then most of them originated without the EU anyway.
And with its neoliberal viewpoint workers rights were a low priority in the EU anyway.
so bs on both sides.
Undoubtedly but as Leave 'won' based on their BS is it not right to scrutinise it?
Also I can't think of one Remain 'lie' they'd have to backtrack on. They may not have been entirely truthful but it's not like they said we'd give you more money, more jobs etc.
They said the economy would be weaker if we left, our place in the world will be diminished etc and Leave said that was all scaremongering so it's up to Leave to prove it was scaremongering by strengthening the economy, retaining our place at the top table etc
@Duffer yes you're right but that is not how the public as a while viewed it. I wish there had been far more nuanced debate and a much better explanation of the key issues and underlying principles but most people should not have taken any notice in this soundbite, 160 character headline world we currently live in.
why not.If you want to work in this country you need a national insurance number, same for the NHS.
Well literally if only they had thought of that before
Getting a National Insurance Number
When you live and work in the UK you need to have a NI number in order to pay your National Insurance contributions if you want to have access to certain benefits like state pensions and student loans. The opposite is also valid, however. In order to be able to apply for a NI (National Insurance) number you need to have the right to live and work in the UK.
Wow they did, to work in the UK you needed to get a NI Number, that involves showing you are legally able to work in the UK.
Are you sure you are not trying to mix up legal, illegal and asylum seeking into one argument?
Wow they did, to work in the UK you needed to get a NI Number, that involves showing you are legally able to work in the UK.Are you sure you are not trying to mix up legal, illegal and asylum seeking into one argument?
no, the point is we will not have to give out NI numbers to anyone who wishes to come over from the EU, unless we choose to. Same with asylum seekers.
It's a pretty simple idea, why are you having so much issue with it ?
Except as per my OP Daniel Hannan is now saying that they are open to the idea of continuation of free movement and that control of immigration wasn't something Leave committed to.
Again, looking at what was said no they didn't but the implication was very clear that vote leave = less immigration and the end to free movement in particular.
Except as per my OP Daniel Hannan is now saying that they are open to the idea of continuation of free movement and that control of immigration wasn't something Leave committed to.
well he is a d1ck then, as a lot of people thought.
I don't think that was ever actually said - more like that's 350m that we don't have control over - and suggestions as to what we could do with it.
no, the point is we will not have to give out NI numbers to anyone who wishes to come over from the EU, unless we choose to. Same with asylum seekers.It's a pretty simple idea, why are you having so much issue with it ?
That is exactly the issues that VL tapped into
Saying 350m for the NHS and immigration is too high, well fix it over and over to win votes and now saying,
nah that was just a suggestion is going to leave those voters bitterly betrayed
Newsnight last night was a lesson in how duplicitous VL have been
For immigration control why can we not just say you need 'paperwork' to get benefits, use the NHS, work, etc in this country and the only way to get the 'paperwork' is to be official, and introduce very big fines for those employing 'unofficial' immigrants.therefore the UK would be a lot less attractive for economic immigrants, and so eventually less would come.
[b]The main issue is people destroying any evidence of where they came from, so they couldn't be ejected from the country.[/b]
It started here, your words in bold
All in the back
What they will do is
1) fail spectacularly to get any deal with the EU for access that does not reqyire us ti be basically a member and paying up
2) blame the EU for why everything went wring for the next decade
They will also be clever and invite cross part support for the negotiations so
1) they cannot refuse or they will be seen as not supporting the country and putting politics first
2) when it fails all political parties are left equally to blame
On the positive side Farage is going to be unemployed.
It still possible there will be a second vote n whether to accept the result of negotiationed position or to "remain" in the EU as most MP's are still pro the EU - what with being bright er than average or richer than average or older than average - delete as per own bias.
Either way there are going to be a lot of disappointed voters when they realise they just voted for snake oil from the slipperiest of salesmen.
as a simple way of answering the OP you know the plastic tub the athletes put their stuff in at the 100m start, that like the promises they made
this was what happened once the results were in
[img] 
[/img]
He was also a prominent Leave campaigner...
Look I'm happy to wait and see but no one on either side can deny that people voted to leave because they believe (largely due to what was said by the Leave camp during the campaign but not necessarily entirely) that the UK's future is best served by going it alone.
It is therefore up to the Leave camp to prove this to be the case and to make the UK stronger than before.
They actually have a much harder job to do than remain aphid have had-they never gave hope of better, they simply would have had to maintain the status quo.
So far though Leave are distancing themselves from the very issues they campaigned on.
And @Mike-perfect illustration!!
Chewkw invoked in an appeal to authority...twice! 😯
I don't think that was ever actually said - more like that's 350m that we don't have control over - and suggestions as to what we could do with it.
OK they didn't explicitly say it but the battle bus was so worded that the common populous would infer it
Let's just clear this one up shall we? They did explicitly say it. ([url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/nigel-farage-350-million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/ ]Telegraph report[/url].)
Campaigners promised to use the money the UK reportedly sends to the EU to fund the health service instead.
[img] 
[/img]
It was an outright barefaced lie. There is nothing to discuss or debate here, they lied, end of.
Ah but mint-that is just an idea, a thought. Not a promise or a commitment.
All the Leave BS is as such. They have dangled it in front of the electorate as nailed on future policy but it is all just the musings of what might be. It was a very clever campaign but will it come back to haunt them?
personally I'm looking forward to the return of these
[img] 
[/img]
The Leave campaign is exactly that, a campaign. Its about this and future governments deciding what to do and being able to act freely.
As for grants etc thats up to the EU whilst we are still a member, which we will be for at least 2 years
Why aren't we blaming the gutter tabloid press anyway ?
They were aware of any BS in the campaigns, could easily have pointed it out, and by not doing so and positively encouraging people to vote out had a lot more power over the result than the campaigns did.
So you're okay with the lies then?
Its about this and future governments deciding what to do and being able to act freely.
TAKING BACK CONTROL!!!!!
Yep, it was all about that. They just promised the earth so you would stroke their ego. Now you have done that it's back to they were just thought bubbles, why would you think anyone would actually do any of them, or that any of them were possible if in fact based on any kind of fact.
Why aren't we blaming the gutter tabloid press anyway ?
Can we start by blaming the people spouting the shit first? the press had it's interests - Murdoch hates the EU as he gets looked after much better in Number 10. The mail and express normally post outlandish lies and BS so it was hard to tell there.
Why don't we blame the public who went, what free lunch every day and a happy ending all for free??? Where do I sign up.
We're going to "leave" the EU, but I can't help thinking that at the end of this expensive farce, the remainers are going to be happier than the leavers.
Does anyone actually think the EU will issue any NEW grants to the UK in the two years following Article 50?
We'll be lucky if they don't try to wriggle out of any existing ones...
From what I'd read triggering article 50 means we no longer sit at the table other than to negotiate our [s]demise[/s] exit.
We have no say on any other matter...
From the Indy
A government must trigger the article by officially notifying the EU of its intention to leave. Then there is a two-year period in which the terms of the leaver’s exit are negotiated. During this time Britain would no longer be able to take part in any EU decision-making, and any exit agreements must be approved by all 27 remaining EU nations and the European Parliament. Then after Britain’s formal exit, fresh negotiations can begin on any new trade deals.
Of more concern
The Treaty of Lisbon was drafted with the idea that [Article 50] would not be used, and to make it pretty hard to exit in a smooth way...
Does this mean the other 27 can unilaterally stop existing grants? I don't know but if they try we're not at the table to object.
The Leave campaign is exactly that, a campaign. Its about this and future governments deciding what to do and being able to act freely.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
If you could pedal forwards as fast as you're peddling backwards you'd be ****in' Lance Armstrong !!
Apparently people misunderstood the leave message on immigration.
They only said they would control it not reduce it is the official line...
You do get the impression the Leave campaign never really thought they'd win and have to deliver any of this....
[img] 
[/img]
You do get the impression the Leave campaign never really thought they'd win and have to deliver any of this....
It's almost as if the Leave leaders just used it to further their own personal ends!!
I don't think they did think they'd win. They wanted to bloody a few noses, rough up Cameron but they now actually have to sort shit out.
Can all remainers please take it on the chin. There was a vote, you lost, get over it. Otherwise you look like a toddler not accepting NO for an answer.
I don't think they did think they'd win. They wanted to bloody a few noses, rough up Cameron but they now actually have to sort shit out.
And despite being a cross party group that could have stood together to form a party/cabinet/group to spearhead change they are now playing the it's not policy - though we told you it would happen, we can't make those sort of calls etc.
Lets face it they lied. People were taken in - it was the plan from day 1 because there were not enough idiots to vote for leave on the truth
Can all remainers please take it on the chin. There was a vote, you lost, get over it. Otherwise you look like a toddler not accepting NO for an answer.
Maybe when the leave voters actually step up and start to offer some ideas about how they are going to sort all this shite out.
I accept the result 100%-I'm just expecting the leave camp now to deliver this vision of a stronger more prosperous UK.
A genuine question for you. Are you entirely happy that the reasons you voted leave for are going to be delivered. Did you vote leave for more money for the NHS or for lower immigration and if so are you not disappointed it seems this isn't and never was the intent of the leave camp?
And to say shut up, get over it. Was it not Farage who said if leave lost then they must not be silenced,must keep banging the drum and pushing for change?!
So he would have (successfully undoubtedly) kept the noise up but we must shut up?
Is it not important for everyone to carefully consider and debate the next moves, to consider the promises made as yes leave won and we must all deal with the consequences. To heal the divisions both sides must be listened to and both sides must help move this thing forward.
Hang on - just a few days ago everyone from remain was complaining that the leave campaign hadn't given any detail of what they were going do afterwards
How then are they now alleged to have made all these 'promises'?
FF spot on. There were misjudgements all round right up to the final whistle. VL could lie because they never thought that they would win, CMD didn't think he would lose, and JC watched from the sidelines hoping that the Tories would self destruct and leave him in a string position.
And now we have #fakecontorl, the lies exposed for what they are and immediate scrambling and backtracking. Bojo and Gove will ultimately be toast because they will fail to deliver - how could they, they proposed false answers to made up problems? The only positive for them is this will take time. But they are now 100% exposed and they look less attractive naked don't they?
JC, well.....
CMD misjudged. Must feel v low right now but will be off to the private sector and a happy new career.
Meanwhile the Turkeys are basting nicely. Hard luck or their own fault - you decide, it doesn't matter - they will be the ultimate losers, Sad but as the quotes - here or elsewhere - that democracy relies on education to work properly will be proved correct.
No surprise where the educated voted.
How then are they now alleged to have made all these 'promises'?
What we saw was unsubstantiated promises which have been dropped within minutes of the Out vote
£350 Million to spend on what we want like build hospitals - well actually that doesn't really exist and we might need that for a Pay to Trade scheme and to fund all the things that now don't have cash for.
Stop all that nasty immigration, well control, well not do much, well we might have to accept free movement to get free trade
The rest was slogan crap like take control or be awesome which means nothing
How then are they now alleged to have made all these 'promises'?
Their "promises" were: "we'll make Britain great", "we'll taken power back", "we'll bring an end to free movement" etc etc.
unsubstantiated promises which have been dropped
Which [i]actual[/i] promises though?
can you point me to anything that was [i]actually[/i] promised?
or is it just good one fashioned whinging?
Edit:
"we'll bring an end to free movement"
Do we still get bendy bananas? Or was that a lie too?
Is disappoint.
too right ninfan it was a great con from day one, unfortunately a number of people didn't spot that. Good job you did... you won't be dissapointed when none of it happens
Gove was promising things from the 24th onwards.
Wrong on all counts.
How then are they now alleged to have made all these 'promises'?
I have to say @ninfan you are on a roll 🙂 Bingo - Full 'ouse !!
BTW Farage always said the £350m claim was a mistake, he's happy to say that before and after the vote. It wasn't his campaign that came up with the slogan. As I said repeatedly the number was irrelevant and anyway its not fixed and the trend had been clearly upwards nit leas as UK was outperforming
A campaign can't make any promises or have a manifesto as its not a Government or even a political partry, Osbourne however is the (was a 😉 ) chancellor so where's the punishment budget ? Michael Fallon couldn't explain when armed conflict was expected to break out either.
Nothing could possibly be delivered on day 1 as the Leave campaign said. Nothing at all has changed today.
So I see our EU comissioned (who until 3 months ago I had NEVER heard of) has confirmed what a sleezeball he is by resigning just at the point he has some real work to do.
As I said repeatedly the number was irrelevant and anyway its not fixed and the trend had been clearly upwards nit leas as UK was outperforming
[img]
[/img]
Such a shame they didn't have a marker pen or something to change it on the bus. It's really up there as they meant it...
@Jamba-isn't this kind of political wriggling and swerving exactly the kind of behaviour a number of leave supporters voted in protest against.
The tone of the debate was that a vote to leave is a vote for less immigrants, a vote for more money to the UK instead of the EU and more jobs for British people.
To say these were not promises is technically true but is not the way they were sold to the public. At no point did anyone from VL say a vote to leave is a vote to keep immigration at the same level. They are saying that now though.
They kept saying the free movement of people from within the EU was unsustainable and that it must end. I'm listening to yesterday's any questions on R4 now and Chris Grayling very specifically said yes free movement must go. Now Hannan is saying it'll probably stay.
At no point did they say 'you see that £350m figure on the side of our bus, there right above more spending on the NHS? Well it doesn't actually exist and it's certainly not going on the NHS'. They're saying it now.
They made a number of statements about how leaving the EU would mane Britain great again and they're now saying 'well that was just an idea-it'll probably not happen though'.
The average voter doesn't understand the difference between a manifesto promise, a policy suggestion or a hope and a prayer. They don't understand that a slogan or catchy headline used in a referendum debate isn't the same as one used by a party during an election.
Nothing at all has changed today.
You're joking? I recall the [b]promises[/b] made by remain, such as:
"As a historian, I fear that Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also of western political civilization in its entirety,"
These post Brexit scenes just in from Kent
hahahaha [img]Nothing at all has changed today
[/img]
I'm sure all the Leave voters who expected NHS money, end to EU immigration and all the rest will now say "yes, you're right, you got me there good and proper guv'nor. Well.played me old China" and get back to their business with a merry tune.
@ninfan-it's far too early to call that. Let's see what position the economy is in in 6 months-a years time.
Let's see start the details of the trade deals are when we have them.
We can however today say that leave have already backtracked on two of theirs.
Yes, remain may be called out also but it'll take longer to find out and they may well be proved right...
Ninfan - Donald Tusk was part of the Remain campaign? Gosh!!
@danny immigration has been a real issue in the UK for a while. Both the Tories (with their target) and Labour (demonstrated by the mug) focused on it in 2015. It was always going to be central to the campaign. The EU where well aware of this, Cameron tried to get some meaningful reforms (like a benefit/welfare freeze) but he was rebuffed. The EU has a choice, it could have chosen a path which would have mitigated the concerns but they did not.
As for the £350m lets keep an eye on our budget contributions for the next two years, they are not going down imo - quite the contrary.
As for free movement - I am good with any EU citizen having access to a visa but with a cap which we set annually based on needs. I am also very much of the view we need to do what Singapore does when it grants visas - it looks at the skills you are bringing and the contribution you will make in terms of balue added and tax. Everyone should pay enough tax fo cover services, health and there should be no in work benefits and no housing provision.
immigration has been a real issue in the UK for a while. Both the Tories (with their target) and Labour (demonstrated by the mug) focused on it in 2015.
Yes the perception of immigration has been a problem and convincing people that it's actually good for the country has been tough. It's also been hijacked by the right wing and pushed hard. People are being told it's a problem and the reason life is tough when in fact that immigration is making the economic position better.
Thats also where the racists come in.
Then there has been the blurring of the lines between Legal EU movement and the migrant crisis which has been done to create the fear and worry - remember all your posts about refugees in Germany?
Everyone should pay enough tax fo cover services, health and there should be no in work benefits and no housing provision.
Damm fine idea, most of the EU migrants did.
Hopefully Leave will back down and sign up to Europe properly instead of this farcical shit we're in now.
But Hannan has stated complete free movement, exactly as we currently have, is likely to continue and that VL never explicitly said otherwise.
Plus Calais is at some point going to dump thousands of angry disillusioned refugees on Kent. No way on gods earth are the French going to allow our border to stay on their soil and why should they. We want to take control back don't we?
Perhaps we should focus efforts on the things that people fear the most - like spiders an the dark, maybe vote leave could promise to ban darkness
And spiders. 'Specially foreign spiders...
except that we would be in a worse position to negotiate than before and any special concessions that we had would be toastHopefully Leave will back down and sign up to Europe properly instead of this farcical shit we're in now.
except that we would be in a worse position to negotiate than before and any special concessions that we had would be toast
Yep, no rebate, no MEPs, no say in EU laws (which we have to follow) and no passport control. The Norwegian model.
So we pay more for less 🙂
Oh the ironing...
and a 2 year long recession / house price crash as a transition to this new Utopia!
Must admit I don't get the the "we've won" get over it mentality.....considering you don't know what you've won.
Will Wales, Cornwall, Museums, UK science, MTB trailbuilding etc still see the EU cash propping them up in the Norwegian model?
Out are they to rely on the benevolence of our new Tory government ?
Reversion to a pre-Maastricht scenario i.e. free movement of labour for jobs rather than just pitching up?
And considering that Farage said if VL lost they wouldn't be silenced, they would keep on banging the drum until they get what they wanted.
So it's OK for Farage and his VL supporters to pledge to keep on banging on until they win a referendum yet those on the remain side are expected to shut up after a few hours.
Some of us have had something taken away from us that we'll never get back, something we believed passionately in and we were proud to be part of.
Don't forget some remainers actually liked being part of a political union and reasons for staying went far beyond economic arguments, trade agreements and immigration.
@nipper-the very large proportion of EU migrants did rock up to a job and under the renegotiation anyone that didn't have a job could be sent home.
CMD actually did quite a good job there.
I'm sorry all, but the elephant in the room needs to be addressed. The leave campaign "won" on the vote on the large number of bigots and closet racists they corralled. That's why I woke up yesterday morning feeling sick. That's how the rest of the world see's us and that's how half of the U.K regards at each other. I'm not proud to be British anymore. I feel like an outsider in my own country.
Sorry for lowering the mood, get back to your politics.
I can't remember the leave campaign actualy making any promises, in fact it was the main reason I could never vote leave, I had no idea what we supposed to gain apart from some vague notion of 'taking back control'
We've been in a game of 'deal or no deal' and chosen a potentially empty box over a guaranteed payout. The leavers are cheering before its even been opened.
Just to go back to the point made on the first page by TurnerGuy, because I feel it really wasn't pushed or explained by the remain side...
The NHS gets paid when it treats EU patients. If a French patient is treated over here they're logged on a government system and we send a bill to the French government, who cough up the cash as long as the patient has an ehic card.
If they don't have an EHIC then they're treated like any other foreign patient and we get the money back from their insurers or from the patient themselves. If they don't pay then the NHS can put a marker on them so that the border agency stop them and make them pay.
Overseas patients don't have any right to free (apart from a&e, maternity and a couple of other exceptions) NHS treatment and they're not behind the continuing rises in demand for care.
that's how half of the U.K regards at each other.
We've recognised this. We live in an area that was very strongly Leave, and earlier we found ourselves in a busy National Trust cafe, popular with the older generation. The thought crossed both our minds that all these people, happily going about their business as if nothing had happened, were those who had basically just done us all over. It was very difficult to get over.
Extra ironic as the National Trust were on the Remain side.
@ andy8442 - yup, ashamed is the feeling I have at the moment.
It was very difficult to get over.
Just content yourself with the fact they'll all be dead soon and we can then start to fix things.....