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Apparently, Farage on GB News last night.
Oh, right, well then, who am I to argue with such an unimpeachable source.
Opinion Column in the Guardian on it
Interesting that it focuses a lot on the bigger picture about social media (which leaked the details of the conversation) and the wider ranging issue that it's not just one person within the royal household, it's the royal household as an institution (with an overwhelmingly white staff).
Well that’s the whole point isn’t it? It was a hostile interrogation based on a person’s appearance.
You seem very clued up on what constitutes racism Ernie, so maybe you can help define this question.
I am the last person to ask what constitutes racism, its definition appears to vary massively.
I am certain of two things though, firstly that the touching of a complete stranger's hair and aggressive questioning concerning where the person comes from is extraordinarily rude.
And secondly that Lady Hussey would not have asked her hostile questions had the person being interrogated been white.
I will let you decide for yourself Lady Hussey's motive but the unacceptable nature of her behaviour is without doubt.
Anyone else watching question time last night get the impression even the GBeebies presenter was struggling? She was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either say old people are racist, and piss off the 50% of the audience that are old and majority not racist. Or say old people should be allowed to be racist and piss off the majority of the audience who aren't racist?
Secondly, from where have you deduced that she “seemingly was packing a device to record the conversation”?
Plus thirdly even if it was a setup (which as you point out seems a tad unlikely) then it should have just provided a rather boring conversation and not the set of questions it did.
Either say old people are racist, and piss off the 50% of the audience that are old and majority not racist. Or say old people should be allowed to be racist and piss off the majority of the audience who aren’t racist?
Is that just using ageism to excuse racism?
"Oh look, she's an old biddy, we expect her to be racist..."
or
"Well yes she was racist but she's OLD, what do you expect?!"
??
As per that Guardian article, it's a shame she just resigned, it would have been a useful teaching opportunity and a way of showing that they wanted to learn from the mistake, not just have her step down and say "that's the end of that..."
then it should have just provided a rather boring conversation and not the set of questions it did.
Precisely. I have looked at Ngozi Fulani's website and frankly a lot of what she says is nonsense. Stuff like "back then when black people first arrived here, there was no benefit system". At the time of postwar immigration from the Caribbean Britain had a welfare state and universal benefit system that was unique in the Western World.
It seems quite obvious to me that Fulani has an axe to grind and is on mission so I am perfectly prepared to accept that she recorded the conversation for her own agenda. That doesn't make one iota of difference to me though, she didn't force Hussey to say the things she said.
And I think it is very useful if she did record the conversation as there can be no doubt about the exchange.
Black people arrived in the UK hundreds of years before that 🙂
If a woman’s refuge that was dedicated only to white women, would that be considered racist ?.
#AllLivesMatter
Unless you're going to argue that all people already get treated equally by society regardless of their sex, gender, race, skin colour, sexual orientation, age, employment, geographical location, social status, etc etc etc then it should be self-apparent that different groups of people may require different forms of support. Is Age Concern ageist? Barnados?
White people in the UK rarely get prejudiced against because they are white, outside of Tommy Robinson's **** fantasies anyway. I can't quite believe that this actually requires explaining.
Black people arrived in the UK hundreds of years before that 🙂
Yeah but by "back then" she is talking about the period that her parents came to the UK, not the 17th century.
Ah -so you know her intent do you? mansplaining? 😉
tjagain
either a fear that violence may be done ie if someone is shouting at you they are going to kill you – thats assault without any touching. Or touching without consent – thats assault.
Most people confuse assault with assault occasioning actual bodily harm
There was no fear of violence and I don't think that's the case regarding touching without consent. I read the legal definition and I can't see why it would be.
Anyway, it's off topic, just a point of interest.
It was extremely rude behaviour in any case.
When i first moved to Oz i noticed people don’t answer the question. I think in Britain there’s a “How are you?” “I’m fine*, how are you?” interaction. Here it’s often “How are you?” “How are you?” where neither party answers… i find that weird.
We do this here, rhetorical greeting questions. Two Lancashire lads meeting:
"Alright?"
"Owdoo?"
It always used to throw me a little in the US, a country who will never use two words when a paragraph will suffice. Go into a shop and they'll ask "how are you doing today?" I think, what's 'today,' did something bad happen? Then I wonder whether they actually do want to know about that odd twinge in my ankle that I woke up with this morning. Eventually I conclude it's just polite smalltalk and answer, "good thanks, you?" then get their life story followed by "hey, where are you from?" and that's another 15 minutes of my life gone whilst I strive to come up with a place name they've heard of. (Spoiler: it's "Liverpool." Semi-rural America sure does love the Beatles.)
Unless you’re going to argue that all people already get treated equally by society regardless of their sex, gender, race, skin colour, sexual orientation, age, employment, geographical location, social status, etc etc etc then it should be self-apparent that different groups of people may require different forms of support. Is Age Concern ageist? Barnados?
Im not arguing anything, im just asking a point,, though your answer/post is fair comment.
But can we look towards age concern as an example. Is there two or more types of old age pensioners, though barnardos is maybe not a good example to use, or do they choose one group of children over another.
I don’t think that’s the case regarding touching without consent. I read the legal definition and I can’t see why it would be.
so you don't think patting someones backside is assault? Its certainly what i was taught by a professor of law. touch without consent is assault sexual motive or not
As you say its a distraction from the real topic tho
I see it's being reported that Hussey (skrew thar Lady balls) was also giving Nazir Afzal a hard time (the tofu eating wokerati lawyer.)
Reported in the Mirror I think.
It was a complete set up…..the woman was wearing traditional African dress and seemingly was packing a device to record the conversation….An absolute non story. She was looking for an opportunity for some publicity.
Yeh, and those women wearing short skirts on a night out, they deserve it too. And paedos and fraudsters caught by sting operations, it wasn't their fault, if they hadn't been given the opportunity.....
Is there two or more types of old age pensioners, though barnardos is maybe not a good example to use, or do they choose one group of children over another.
That makes no sense. Is there two or more types of black women? Do you suppose they have a Pantone chart on the admissions desk?
An old-age charity helps old people. A black women's charity helps black women. Seems fairly straight-forward to me. 🤷♂️
tjagain
so you don’t think patting someones backside is assault? Its certainly what i was taught by a professor of law. touch without consent is assault sexual motive or not
I think that example would be indeed sexual assault, all i'm saying is that in the case in the OP post, i don't think merely moving somebody's hair is assault. It's not sexual touching, it's not violent. But you might be right, and I'm not about to have a ten page argument about it 🙂
Any case it's extremely rude, i'm honestly very surprised that somebody close to the royals would lack that basic level of respect. Imagine they'd be prim and proper to the point of absurdity.
so you don’t think patting someones backside is assault?
Touching someones hair is extremely long just to see a name badge, and giving someones bum a bit of a rub are two completely different scenarios TJ.
not the 17th century.
Try the 12th Century
Try the 12th Century
I don't think that is when her parents came to the UK. But yeah no benefit system then.
Whilst I have no sympathy for Hussey I do struggle with Ms Fulani’s complaint about being asked where she came from. Ms Fulani runs a charity for Black Afro Carribean people. Presumably she wont help anyone from any other background and therefore checks this as part of her programme to deicide who to support. I presume then she wont support anyone in need from the Chinese or Asian communities with the same problems , let alone any one who is as British as she is but has a different skin colour to her.
whitemansplaining?
I'm at the risk of doing some of that myself... but people confused by the hair touching issue need to find a black woman to have a nice chat to about it. Hint... assuming you're not black, and not a woman... it's not about how people act towards you and your hair... if you still have any.
Whilst I have no sympathy for Hussey I do struggle with Ms Fulani’s complaint about being asked where she came from.
Have you heard her? Could she sound any more London if she tried?
I spent most of my life in Brizzle, and now live in London. I get comments all the time, I just dont give a ****. She is an old lady who is quite distanced from normal Brits, and quite a lot of people she has met over the years (in her official capacity) are from differing parts of the world I bet, and maybe she assumed. She shouldn't of, but I would cut her some slack for the fact she is very old, or am I being ageist?
Maybe she could have asked 'where are your family from?', my wife is Greek and she gets it a lot, and equally if my parents moved to Kathmandu I bet I would be asked the same.
So do you not need an element of violence to commit assault then?
Sort of, you need either implicit threats or actions of violence, physical acts (this also covers spitting as an example) or the person to believe that someone's actions may result in violence. That is grounds for suspicion of an offence being committed and could lead to arrest for such.
However, that will then need to be tested and evidence to support a charge, doubtful touching someone without some other form of indication there was malicious intent would get past the CPS 'likely to secure a prosecution' threshold. Although if the police felt there was a strong enough case/belief then a caution could be issued. Non-harassment/molestation orders are a seperate kettle of fish.
There could also be the compound effect of Race hate offence being added.
The only offences for (non-sexual) in England:
Common assault (section 39, Criminal Justice Act 1988)
Assault occasioning actual bodily harm (section 47, Offences against the person act 1861)
Unlawful wounding or inflicting grievous bodily harm (section 20, Offences against the person act 1861)
Causing grievous bodily harm with intent to do grievous bodily harm/Wounding with intent to do grievous bodily harm (section 18, Offences against the person act 1861)
Unlawful wounding or inflicting grievous bodily harm (section 20)
Can't edit for some reason.
I do struggle with Ms Fulani’s complaint about being asked where she came from
Maybe she could have asked ‘where are your family from?
Did either of you read the transcript of the conversation, or just judge the whole story by the headline? It wasn't just one clumsily worded question.
Presumably she wont help anyone from any other background
That is quite a presumption, I would presume that a charity working in that sector would do their best to help someone from any background, that could of course include working with other similar organisations to find the most suitable support, and that would be a reciprocal arrangement.
She is an old lady who is quite distanced from normal Brits, and quite a lot of people she has met over the years (in her official capacity) are from differing parts of the world I bet
Well that's the point, you would expect someone who has met many people in her official capacity to understand basic politeness, etiquette, and how to speak in a sensitive and diplomatic manner.
Maybe age is an issue, so why is she still working in a role she isn't suited for? Only she isn't anymore. Which seems reasonable.
Did either of you read the transcript of the conversation, or just judge the whole story by the headline? It wasn’t just one clumsily worded question.
Im sure everyone has but it appears that some people, yourself included have decided to include as malicious intent into the questions.
Simply not the case and no amount of virtue signalling is going to change the fact that Mrs Hussey, whose family worked in Africa for decades simply has an interest and was trying to find out where in Africa Mrs Ngozi Fulani's family came from.
A normal person might well have said 'Oh I see, you mean my family's heritage ?, that would be blah blah', and to which i would suspect old Mrs Hussey would reply along thew lines of 'family worked there etc etc. and continue on a conversation about Africa and its finery, climate etc etc.
But unfortunately for Mrs Hussey, the woman she was talking to life revolves around race and racism and will take any hint of a question about this subject as a direct and racial attack.
Mrs Hussey, has no doubt met socially or formally many thousand dignitaries from across the world in her position. I dont think she would have held her position if you displayed a tendency to upset those visitors.
balderdash! and piffle!
Im sure everyone has but it appears that some people, yourself included have decided to include as malicious intent into the questions.
"Some people" includes the Palace which has said "We take this incident extremely seriously and have investigated immediately to establish the full details. In this instance, unacceptable and deeply regrettable remarks have been made.”
They also said, ”the individual concerned would like to express her profound apologies for the hurt caused and has stepped aside from her honorary role with immediate effect.”
Why are you not accepting Hussey's profound apologies and who apart from you is suggesting that her line of questioning was acceptable and harmless? Nigel Farage?
She has no choice, neither does the palace. And i expect the apology isnt going to be sorry for being racist, but more like sorry i was actually meaning......
balderdash! and piffle!
Absolutely! What makes you so certain that your interpretation of her intentions is the correct one? (or at least spend a few seconds considering whether the people who disagree may just be right?)
i expect the apology isnt going to be sorry for being racist, but more like sorry i was actually meaning……
I expect you're correct.
I do struggle with Ms Fulani’s complaint about being asked where she came from.
She answered the question truthfully. The answer didn't appear to be good enough...
No choice because it is pretty damn clear to most reasonable people that Hussey's line of questioning was totally unacceptable.
Why would the Palace waste their time attempting to defend the indefensible?
And no doubt Hussey herself is genuinely sorry. I have no reason to assume that she is a unrepentant raving racist who can't be made aware of the insensitivity of her repeated questioning.
I have no reason to assume that she is a unrepentant raving racist who can’t be made aware of the insensitivity of her repeated questioning.
No, of course not...
Farage, on the other hand..
Inappropriate and insensitive questioning which resulted in the opportunity to identify that such exists and a subsequent platform for publicity for a charity which focuses on a specific market.
However, many carry preconceptions and misconceptions which can result in both negative plus positive bias.
dyna ti - did you read the comment piece from the Grauniad?
Maybe age is an issue, so why is she still working in a role she isn’t suited for? Only she isn’t anymore. Which seems reasonable.
Sums it up really, not sure there's much more to be said about it. But obviously some will 🤷♂️
Nope. Am I supposed to scrawl through all the papers.
This is my interpretation. Like, disagree its all the same, and no doubt in the guardian is someone else's interpretation. Again, like, disagree or supply your own take on the proceedings.
Its linked above and I think you might find it interesting and educational.
Its obvious racism. Not of the deliberate type like the BNP but in an ill-educated and ignorant way.
Christ. What next, dream racism? You wake up in the morning and select white socks over black. It's because you were being racist in your sleep. It's not actual racism like the BNP and Nazis and stuff, but it is racism.
Is it that hard to understand?
Racism comes in many forms. this is obviously racist by any definition. Did the women intend to be racist? Myself I doubt it. Was her actions racist - of course it was. Its actual racism.
Jeepers some of you are more than a little hard of thinking
What makes you so certain that your interpretation of her intentions is the correct one?
No more than the assertion that Mrs Hussey's comments were racism. I like to believe they were completely innocent. Lot of cancel culture goes on these days wouldn't you agree. Plenty of social media wolves ready to jump on the slightest thing.
@TJ. Guardian back in vogue then ?.
Unconscious bias is the term to search for if you would like to learn more. I believe thats what it is in this case. No intent to be racist but the unconscious bias has led her to be racist.
@dyna-ti Mrs Hussey's comments can be both innocent and racist simultaneously. Racism doesn't have to have intent.
So what is the average number of pages on any topic before the original topic turns into fighting amongst posters?
Is this how the mods earn their Xmas Dinner? No swearing but bitching and bickering is OK?
Mrs Hussey’s comments can be both innocent and racist simultaneously. Racism doesn’t have to have intent.
Oh I understand that, im just shocked by some peoples reaction on here spitting hatred towards an 83yr old woman who clearly didn't realize her words would be jumped on
I'll wager that in a private moment she's ended up in tears over this.
.
But if it makes them all feel better and they can fly their flags high and clear that they championed the fight against racism,while ignoring more obvious cases of race hate, then i suppose thats the way some people wish to fly.
But if we're quoting newspaper articles, here's one than might offer the education TJ thinks some of us are in need of.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/in-defence-of-lady-susan-hussey/
I’ll wager that in a private moment she’s ended up in tears over this.
I'll wager that she thinks it's a load of fuss about nothing.
Spitting hatred? Not seen that
Which it is really.
I think alot of old folks are unintentionally racist, they don’t mean to be and they don’t intentionally mean offence, but it’s still racism however you cut it.
The transcript points to that, but also a great deal of ignorance and entitlement thrown in for good measure.
Did I honestly read some moron say it was ‘her fault for dressing that way’…??😳😩
@Ranos
Taken from the article posted above by Petronella Wyatt
" This morning a mutual friend told me she is ‘shattered and heartbroken and will never recover.’ "
just shocked by some peoples reaction on here spitting hatred towards an 83yr old woman
Who is doing that? I get the impression that most people agree with Buckingham Palace's assessment of the situation.... "unacceptable and deeply regrettable”. Who do you think is expressing hatred?
Racism doesn’t have to have intent.
I does for me - intent is everything.as far as I am concerned. IMO a comment can be racially insensitive without being racist.
I still use the original definition of racism :
*prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
*the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.
I don't use the newfangled politically correct definition of racism.
My take, for the little it’s worth.
Old lady, probably unintended but obvious racism.
Other lady, milking it. She knew what Ms Hussey meant & should’ve just said, ‘I’m as British as you but my parents were from Barbados.
But then we wouldn’t talking about it.
Oh, & the touchy hair bit? Inappropriate.
She knew what Ms Hussey meant & should’ve just said, ‘I’m as British as you but my parents were from Barbados.
That is exactly what she said:
SH: “Oh I can see I am going to have a challenge getting you to say where you’re from. When did you first come here?”
Ms Fulani: “Lady! I am a British national, my parents came here in the 50’s when…”
SH: “Oh, I knew we’d get there in the end, you’re Caribbean!”
Ms Fulani: “No lady, I am of African heritage, Caribbean descent and British nationality.”
What's your complaint...... that she didn't say it quick enough when first asked?
IMO a comment can be racially insensitive without being racist.
Not sure how you square that
Do you believe this was a case of racism?
Edit - do you believe in unconscious bias?
‘I’m as British as you
I think that's the bit some people can't accept.
But if we’re quoting newspaper articles, here’s one than might offer the education TJ thinks some of us are in need of.
I read that article; now, I don’t know what The Spectator’s political views are, but that article, to me, really seemed to have an agenda.
I’ll wager that she thinks it’s a load of fuss about nothing.
Quite possibly, but I think that’s partly age, ie the attitude of society when she grew up, combined with the type of society she grew up in, which very much restricted the range of people she’d interact with.
I think the term ‘snobbish’ is one that might fit the bill. Certainly, my mum, bless her, displayed certain unfortunate traits that I was uncomfortable with, she grew up through the thirties, forties and fifties, so her prejudices were pretty common - I grew up through the fifties, sixties and seventies, so my attitudes were more, malleable, shall we say.
My prejudices involve similar attitudes, irrespective of the ethnicity of the asshole spouting them. The lady in question, having spent so long working closely with the monarch, really should have known better than to behave like that.
I don’t know what The Spectator’s political views
right wing establishment
She knew what Ms Hussey meant & should’ve just said, ‘I’m as British as you but my parents were from Barbados.
You could also easily say that Ms Hussey should have been able to tell that she was getting offended by that line of questioning, and cut her losses or changed the subject.
I does for me – intent is everything.as far as I am concerned. IMO a comment can be racially insensitive without being racist.
I still use the original definition of racism :
*prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
*the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.
The second part of your definition doesn't have an "intent" aspect.
You could also easily say that Ms Hussey should have been able to tell that she was getting offended by that line of questioning, and cut her losses or changed the subject.
Definitely, but she'll be Tory so being offended isn't an issue, those bastids are used to it & just shrug it off.
@Ranos
Taken from the article posted above by Petronella Wyatt
” This morning a mutual friend told me she is ‘shattered and heartbroken and will never recover.’ ”
Must be true then.
Must be true then.
Why shouldn't it be ?, or do you approach everything that disagrees with your point of view as being corrupted and lies.
Why shouldn’t it be ?, or do you approach everything that disagrees with your point of view as being corrupted and lies.
Oh do get over yourself. We're both speculating and a supportive quote from a friend in a conservative publication really isn't evidence of anything. My best guess is that if she is upset, it's because she believes she's been vilified when she hasn't done anything wrong.
im just shocked by some peoples reaction on here spitting hatred towards an 83yr old woman who clearly didn’t realize her words would be jumped on
I’ll wager that in a private moment she’s ended up in tears over this.
Baseless hyperbole aside,
She's had 83 years to work out that doggedly going "yes, but where are you really from?" to someone born in London who happens to be brown might not be appropriate. Or even to work out when to drop a subject that someone else perhaps doesn't want to talk about.
If we're wagering things, I'll wager that she's oblivious (or maybe perplexed about the fuss). And honestly, probably should be. It's an attitude which is the product of a dying generation, it's not her fault any more than my gran talking about the corner shop starting with a P because it was owned by a gentleman from the Indian Subcontinent.
I don't think that she, personally, should be vilified. I do however think that making this sort of incident quietly go away isn't helpful either. Whilst we're still wagering, I'll wager it's far from the first time she's said something like this, and it's very far from the first time that the recipient has heard similar.
I don’t know what The Spectator’s political views are, but that article, to me, really seemed to have an agenda.
Nor I, but there seems to be a theme with the article's author.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/writer/petronella-wyatt/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petronella_Wyatt
Definitely, but she’ll be Tory so being offended isn’t an issue, those bastids are used to it & just shrug it off.
I've really no clue where that came from.
Yeah. I can't let that go.
Not sure if it's a really poor attempt at humour, but saying it's okay to be racist based on an entirely make believe political affiliations is *massively* out of line.
[Edit] That's not to say that even if it wasn't a complete fantasy, it would somehow be okay [/Edit]
I don’t think that she, personally, should be vilified.
Sorry, isn't that what this thread is doing ?. And on that note it's pretty much pointless continuing on this thread.
I don’t think that she, personally, should be vilified.
Sorry, isn’t that what this thread is doing ?.
This thread is very clearly not about people's personal opinions of the woman but their opinion concerning what she said and did.
What she said and did at a Palace event was a very major news story. Do you feel that the BBC was "vilifying" Mrs Hussey when they reported and discussed what she had said on their evening TV news?
The issue it raised is actually an important issue and one which many people feel should be discussed, even if some would rather brush it under the carpet.
The woman was caught being rude & racist and she's been removed from a role (by Buckingham Palace, I don't believe anyone called for her to be sacked) that she was obviously not suited to
No one is villifying her beyond that
Whether it's knee-jerk cap doffing defence of the Royals or outrage that she was caught out by an anti racism campaigner, it really seems to have upset some people, who are blowing it up out of proportion and embarrassing the royals even further!
Well this is all a bit inconvenient:
https://mobile.twitter.com/JustPikachoo/status/1601735411860406274
Jesus Christ James “JustPikachoo”, if you want it to be a citizen journalist, the shaggy dog story and innuendos aren’t going to get you far. What a load of hot, empty, air.
I read 80 pages of that the other day before giving up. Not exactly shocked - an incredibly militant operation by all accounts.
Jesus Christ James “JustPikachoo”, if you want it to be a citizen journalist, the shaggy dog story and innuendos aren’t going to get you far. What a load of hot, empty, air.
It was 100% the case that the right wing would do absolutely everything they could to get revenge on someone that exposed the royals as racist, justpikachu devoting so much effort to come up with all that nonsense is hilarious!!
The charity uses Mac laptops… clearly corrupt. 😴