[Closed] When working from home isn't really home....

“had to be” is always an interesting claim!

Not a claim.

at least two other people got their request in and approved for the same day…

How do you know this?

…either her place is like my wife’s where the official diary opens on a particular day but quiet agreements have been made or managers have had prior access or your wife was tardy putting the request in when it opened.

Or possibly neither of these scenarios are true and there is a ballot system in a large department and the holidays we were trying to book were oversubscribed (albeit by only 1 day)

Then how had other people already booked holiday ahead of her?

See above.

Just don’t brag about it to the colleagues…someone is probably bitter enough to report it.

Its only a day in the van in the Lakes so not much to brag about but good advice 🙂

1) Make sure everyone knows what your home office looks like (I guess we’ve seen most people’s offices on Teams etc by now)

2) Take a photo of said room, and use as your background on Teams.

3) Insist on a (short!) video call on the day in question. Don’t hold anything up to the camera / allow any chance of glitches.

Spin that the other way around to mess with their heads. Take a photo of the inside of the van and use that as a background when working from the house. But not every call. Sometimes work from the van on the drive 'for a bit of privacy'. By the time 'the day' comes they'll be so fed up with asking your actual location you could be sitting in the van in the lakes and no one will know. Apart from the rain drumming on the roof obviously.

work from the van on the drive ‘for a bit of privacy’

I have actually done that when months of working in my shed has got to me, although not on the driveway... 🙂

The reality is she's now in the bad place of either working that one day and being pee'd off about it, or going against her line managers rejection, the problem is that even if there are no rules or guidance on this for the company, the LM has made a decision and put it in black and white, sadly for the sake of 1 day's holiday this'll just be an annoyance between your wife and her boss now.

These are the little things that break down relationships in the office, a more understanding manager would look at the options before making a decision, doubt that's possible now.

I run an IT Infra team and I would care one jot where she is working. Like someone says above just do it. I wouldnt even blur the screen, are you not allowed to work at a different location than your house, eg internet issues going round my mum's?

What is it with some people...

This would be laughed out of a tribunal, whats the difference?

you've been told no.

at that point it stops imo. It also highlights you out to be dishonest if caught.

She's been told no by someone who has no rights to dictate what building she's in when she's working out of the office, IMO.

Dishonest? There's no need to lie about it.

How far away from home is your holiday location?

If she's that concerned about it (and wants to be honest), is it possible to pop home for (the majority?) of her workday then drive back to holiday location again? (Not that I'd do that!)

In a previous role, pre-COVID, I had to provide phone coverage occasionally (on a landline) and it used to piss me off that I'd be stuck in the office basically waiting to answer a phone which never rang and for weekend's away, I could never skip out and get on the road a bit earlier to beat the traffic.

Now, thank god I'm in a different role and the management are a lot less concerned about face time in the office and we've had people work remotely from Brazil, India, Kazakhstan and Spain but all do it on the understanding that they have to be available for Zoom meetings for the majority of the home office work day (Pacific time zone). It works fine...

It being a Friday makes it easy, just take the holiday and she can work from wherever, no-one will be able to prove a thing and they won't care. If it was Wednesday and they were booking Mon-Tue, Thu-Fri it would be a bit more in their face.

This assumes there is no genuine need for a restriction on WFH location which seems to be the case.

I'm genuinely gobsmacked at the number of people who seem to think that a manager's instruction is automatically to be obeyed and any refusal is a serious matter. That only applies if the manager actually has the authority to issue that instruction....which seems unlikely in this case from what's written.

^^ Depends which side HR will come down on. I've been on the receiving end of shit like that several times from a poor manager - she tried to make up for her piss poor management and understanding of what we did by micromanaging and "asserting her authority" which in retrospect was low level bullying.

There's the question of if the manager's refusal of the request is reasonable (or indeed enforceable!) - which it very probably isn't - but also the issue of an employee disregarding a direct instruction.

Christ on a bike. I'm a line manager of sorts. I've had members of my (UK-based) team work from a variety of native countries spread across the EU and Eastern subcontinent over the last year or so. Nordic workmates have worked from their holiday cottages, too. We get to see fresh new backdrops on video calls and one has been sharing some amazing security cam footage of wolves prowling around his lake house during the night.
No-one, and I mean no-one, has given a tinker's cuss about where someone is joining a call or doing their work from, from the CEO down.
My main questions have been: do you have connectivity where you plan to work from, can you keep roughly to central office hours, and will it help your mental health? If all three boxes can be ticked then frankly I don't care where people work from. Why the **** should I if they do the work and are happy?
The only restrictions we've been operating under are legal, tax-related and security-based: is there a legal entity of our company in that country, are there security concerns and will the company or the employee be walloped with a tax bill for remote working? The mental health benefits of doing this are very clear, and there are no reasons not to do all of this if the employee continues to perform. And frankly, they'll perform better if they know I trust them not to take the pish and they get a chance to take some time off from the non-stop grind of homeworking.
Some employers seem to lack humanity, and I really hope their employees act accordingly.

I’m not a line manager anymore, but I completely agree with the above and I’d have no problem where folk where working from so long as they delivered.

I’ve had calls to my HOD from his new second home in Perth and we’ve had some of my team dial in from Berlin and Tenerife recently. I’m going to work from Morzine at half term as I don’t ski, so I’ll be working from the apartment. Which will fine as the family will be in the slopes by the time I need to log on.

For a week who’s going tell the the tax authorities. Anyhow I don’t really understand how this works. Pre Covid I would regularly work for a week at our US or Swedish sites and loads of people do this. If this was a problem with tax, given I work for a big global company this would have come up. We don’t have the issue about inadvertently setting up an office in a country, as we have offices in pretty much every country in the world.

on the 'you shouldnt have asked' issue, and 'now youve been told no'......

if details of the holiday location werent mentioned at time of asking, id not say another word now and if challenged later id say "yes i know you said no, thats why we changed our holiday from abroad to back home, to comply with your wishes. i thought you were saying we couldnt work from abroad, only the uk. sorry, i misunderstood".

All I can say is I'm glad me and my wife have good managers. It's a pity she asked as she's working remotely anyway.

We're struggling to sort out rented accommodation for a major move. Letting agencies insist on the property being viewed in person despite us being an overnight ferry each way away way. With no leave left this year my wife's manager is happy for her to work as she can from her laptop while away and just be unavailable for the hour or whatever it will take for the viewing with Flexi.

I think I'd just say no more, to anyone at work, and work from where ever you'll be and find a reason to email or message the manager early in the day about something (any minor update) to be shown to be at work on that day.

Thanks for all the comments.

Having to work that day (its whey into next year so many things can happen in between) its hardly in the middle of a 2 week holiday abroad so as holidays go its not a huge deal. If things stay the same she will take a view last minute.

The original questions where 1: do systems exist that track that closely and 2: is anybody elses employer being so difficult. Many of the response have given a good insight into both so thanks..

For all of those that suggested cunning work arounds, chapeau 🙂

For a week who’s going tell the the tax authorities. Anyhow I don’t really understand how this works. Pre Covid I would regularly work for a week at our US or Swedish sites and loads of people do this. If this was a problem with tax, given I work for a big global company this would have come up. We don’t have the issue about inadvertently setting up an office in a country, as we have offices in pretty much every country in the world.

Any corporate of standing would understand this issue, so yours is either not as global as you think it is or doesn't GAS (US business by any chance, because in my experience they have quite a disregard for other countries rules & regs).

The global business I work for recently reiterated this issue (working from countries that weren't an employees 'base' country), and reminded us that it could create a tax issue for both the individual and the company - and to only work from 'approved' locations.

The global business I work for recently reiterated this issue (working from countries that weren’t an employees ‘base’ country), and reminded us that it could create a tax issue for both the individual and the company – and to only work from ‘approved’ locations

This has totally diverged from the original question. But I'm interested - surely working from an office in another country for a few days or a week would simply be classed as a business trip. No tax issue there.

Its definitely one of the biggest in the world. I’m sure that if folk were working from another country for a long period of time it has become an issue.

But we all work a week here and there a few times a year in offices in other countries as we have teams that a split across the world.

No one has ever said to me or any of my colleagues don’t to do that for tax reasons. Therefore from a tax perspective I can’t see how working in the Paris office for a week can be any different from working in Morzine.

This has totally diverged from the original question. But I’m interested – surely working from an office in another country for a few days or a week would simply be classed as a business trip. No tax issue there.

I take it you've little/no experience of the subject?

There is an entire global industry dedicated to this subject, for example:

"In the UK, all business visitors (and short term assignees) are liable to UK tax withholding (known as PAYE) from day one unless an application is made under the Short Term Business Visitor Arrangements for exemption based on treaty relief. This would relax the strict PAYE rules for these individuals and would typically be the case where there is a double taxation agreement in force between the UK and the individual’s home country, and where they intend to spend less than 183 days in the UK, and salary costs are not recharged to the UK entity.

Any employer who has business visitors to the UK should consider applying to HMRC for the Appendix 4 scheme and approval for the non inclusion of the STBV on payroll.However, even if PAYE exemption is correctly applied for and received, an employer may still have the additional requirement to file an annual report of all business visitors. The level of information required is based on the total number of days in the UK during the relevant tax year."

https://www.globaltaxnetwork.co.uk/tax-services-for-companies/business-travellers.html

1: do systems exist that track that closely

Technically yes. a VPN Concentrator will likely log IP addresses and you could tie that back to an ISP and a broad approximation of a physical location.

In practical terms though, no, it's simply not reliable or accurate. It would be the work of three mouse clicks for me to appear to be in Brazil.

In any case, the real question is whether anyone would care sufficiently to check. The degree of effort required might be something we'd undertake on allegations of child pornography, not the crime of "working from a caravan in Whitley Bay."

and 2: is anybody elses employer being so difficult. Many of the response have given a good insight into both so thanks..

No. And I'd be careful to distinguish between "employer" and "line manager."

You're overthinking this. She's working from home that day, it's simply a different home. Don't mention it again, just crack on.

Normally, yes, it's a business trip and ok, but I wouldn't say this is an automatic free pass to do whatever you want wherever you want.

I was given a hard time entering the USA a few years ago when I stupidly hadn't bothered to print out my official letter of invitation detailing the arrangements for the visit. In the end he believed me and let me in, primarily because he couldn't imagine I'd have been so stupid as to use my story as an excuse if it wasn't true.

And there can be tax implications if a host covers expenses, let alone pays any sort of honorarium. I know this is a long way beyond the OP's situation but I could understand an employer being reluctant to sanction any sort of overseas working even if individuals are happy to take the risk themselves.

the real question is whether anyone would care sufficiently to check

I share your view that its incredibly unlikely that they would. I also dont really care very much. I was interested in the availability of software (clearly its available to Special branch, MI5, Police etc) but generally "commercially" available, off the shelf. My interest was just as an ex Tech Director familiar with a wide range of remote network management tools etc, none of which did this reliably IME. Sounds like its still the case. My inquisitiveness is satisfied.

No. And I’d be careful to distinguish between “employer” and “line manager.”

They may be indistinguishable if its policy.

You’re overthinking this

I'm really not 🙂 I just keep seeing it pop up and feel obligated to read comments.

re: working from overseas locations

Not sure if someone in our company is reading this, but easily possible as we employ nearly 200k in the UK, but just this morning we've had our Weekly Update Email and one of the bullets was reminding us of the "No working abroad policy".

For your numbered questions:

1. Yes. As an example, Azure (the backbone of Office365) can and does track location information used to log in from and can and does alert on anomalous locations for sign-ins if the right services are used. Getting picked up by this depends on whether the services are in place, someone is monitoring them and/or someone cares. A VPN can solve this, but then you could get picked up for using a VPN or for using an IP that is, again, not your "normal" one. It really does depend on the company, the team, the systems.

2. This is far easier for me to be frank about as I am not a manager and I do not work in the UK. As long as you can do your job in a safe and secure manner, I have very few shits to give about where you work. Safety and security means as much your personal protection as that elating to your devices and the company data, so obviously taking a weekend to work from Donetsk or the Sudan might make me advise against working remotely. The same thing with Slough I guess, or maybe Norwich. Anyway, you get the idea. The key thing here is that, where i work at least, we _can_ work remotely and HR supports that from a legal standpoint. Insurance is a part of this (I think) so the actual location of "your workplace" is less of an issue.

That might not be the case here and the line manager in question might just be taking the line that if computer says no, there is no option to negotiate. Worst case, now they have said no and, if the systems are in place, the more petty managers might be getting the take from the monitoring to see where people are actually working from. That's a slippery slope and I would not be comfortable in that environment; it's a huge trust issue.

Say no more about it. It's one day.

We've had folk saying, I'm booking 3 weeks in France, can I work 2 and then Work from France - the answer is no, cos it's cheeky. One day, not an issue I'd say, just don't say anything.

I've done a day from our caravan at say the start of a weeks break - just gone down early. We've an 'informal' you can work from anywhere, so long as you can get into work if needed. Our van is 90 minutes maximum from the office.

I'd booked half a day at one point, but was in a meeting prior to finishing - I was sat in the passenger seat on mobile data on the way to Anglesey, and finished the meeting sat on a chair in a farmer's field awaiting the Red Arrow's practicing.

I think 'working' for many days at a holiday home is not on, but one day, when the reason for a no was others are off, is OK.

The down side is she's asked. I'd say no more and see what comes up nearer the time.

You’d be surprised how often system login location is checked. I design cloud systems, and it’s a regular requirement for us to prevent login to the system unless logging in from the same country in which the data being accessed is resident. This to to prevent accidental cross-border data transfers.

For example, a recent one was a global CRM platform. Customer service reps can only log in if they’re in the same country as the customer data they have access to, to prevent the customer’s data going outside of their country and potentially being subject to different privacy laws. If a customer service reps decided they were going to surreptitiously log in whilst abroad on holiday, they’ve find themselves needing to phone their manager to explain why they couldn’t log in and do their job. This particular one doesn’t use just IP address, but also geolocation of their phone on which the multi factor authentication software is installed. If the phone can’t be located, or is in the wrong country, they won’t be able to get a second factor.

I’m booking 3 weeks in France, can I work 2 and then Work from France – the answer is no, cos it’s cheeky.

What does it matter if the work is being done?

If they hadn't asked and just done it, would you have noticed?

unless logging in from the same country

The OP is going on holiday elsewhere in the UK.

Data storage / transfer between countries can be a compliance issue - we have to be careful with M365 / AWS et al that the servers are UK-based. Popping off for a week in Cornwall however, considerably less of an issue.

Since the start of covid and ending up working from home, I’ve often thought that I could get an Airbnb, small apartment or something in Italy or somewhere else and head over there for a month - take a long weekend to travel out but then work from there and chill out/do the tourist stuff at evenings and weekends. Obviously somewhere in Europe an hour or two ahead would help me massively start on time in the morning!! I’d go myself so no distractions other than normal around here.

More investigation needed I think......

One of my team is French. They went back to France last year for 2 weeks holiday and one week Wf france. IIRC this was at a holiday destination Vs just back at thier family home. Why I don't know for sure is because I didn't ask, because I don't think it matters if you trust them. Another did a similar thing WF India for several weeks. We're a big global company and this was all within our tax and legal compliance framework (so I did drill into details of dates & countries here). Both of them really appreciated this flexibility and imho both the individuals and the company benefited from this. It was a bit tough when another of my team tried the same with WF Greece. It didn't work out as we don't have the appropriate tax treaty with Greece (but do have a legal presence there)

EDIT: my mum has had some recent health issues, so I've been working from hers the odd day in order to be able to ferry her to/from hospital. I think the change of environment helps with focus.

I’m looking out at cold, frosted, snowy Sweden and a brisk -15C and half dreaming of a working from home place in Portugal. I could probably justify it, but GF can’t work from home and I’m not travelling for the moment.

But, Portugal…. Warm, sunny, tapas.

I’m looking out at cold, frosted, snowy Sweden and a brisk -15C and half dreaming of a working from home place in Portugal. I could probably justify it, but GF can’t work from home and I’m not travelling for the moment.

But, Portugal…. Warm, sunny, tapas.

Yes, exactly this....