[Closed] When technology misses the point.

a) There'll always be a market for stuff that's hand made because there are lots of people like you

b) Basic stuff has been made by machines for ages.  You could say the same thing about people making stuff with CNC machines or even power tools when they could be using hand tools only.

I think you miss the point - this is just a flexible way to create custom furniture, it's not going to replace artists any more than cameras did.  It'll be like in 2023, if you want an Ikea bedside table that's slightly smaller, you'll be able to go on their website, enter in some new dimensions and it'll be delivered a week later.

Yep, I see where you're coming from Molgrips and you make the point well. Apart from suggesting I'm missing the point! 😃

Utilitarian items of furniture to fit the space available and delivered to your door will certainly be convenient and have a market, despite being soulless

BBC4

now

japanese approach to carpentry

well, a few minutes ago… slow forum!

iplayer it

Utilitarian items of furniture to fit the space available and delivered to your door will certainly be convenient and have a market, despite being soulless

Would adding a picture and unique story in the box make you feel better?

It's how they have been part of my life that puts soul into my inanimate objects

Utilitarian items of furniture to fit the space available and delivered to your door will certainly be convenient and have a market, despite being soulless

Yep.  As much soul as the rest of the flatpack furniture in my house, but the right size 🙂

The real test is if it turns out to be cheaper than bespoke furniture.  I could pay a small premium over Ikea prices, but I can't afford bespoke furniture.  So I'm interested.  The scenario I described would be bloody brilliant, thinking about it.  I just had to lop 6" off my kids' bunk bed to fit it in an alcove in their room.  Wish I could have specced it the right size to begin with.

Slack Alice - do you ever uses power tools?

I think you might be disappointed to find how many of your potential customers really couldn’t give a toss whether the joint was cut by a machine or is impregnated with your sweat and tears.

Cost may well be a driver, but for me not having to talk to people who believe they add soul to inanimate objects would be a selling point!

This sort of tooling will allow creative, artistic people to build well made, functional objects. Of course in an ideal world all artists will be skilled craftsmen too but the reality is many people can only do one or the other well. I think its great that we now have tools to turn ideas into objects. You can still take care and you can still make things bespoke and personal, its just that it is now far more accessible.

Double post, obviously this bespoke forum undermines the argument of bespoke being good

despite being soulless

They should come up with a gritty local historical angle, and save Furniture Town.

That might work

I get the op, (although maybe not as far as the soul bit;) ) it's similar to why I have more attachment to my custom made steel road bike than to the carbon job, which is lighter and cheaper, hanging next to it. Custom / bespoke be that furniture, bikes or shoes for example ain't stuff churned out by a robot

What if the robot is hand made?

I don't care if it's hand made or not.  I'm a technophile.

I think you miss the point

Yep.  As much soul as the rest of the flatpack furniture in my house, but the right size

I get the op, (although maybe not as far as the soul bit;)

For some people working with wood is way different to metal or composites.

At school I was way better with metal... but the last 10 yrs or so I've come to really appreciate working with wood and products that are "created" from it.

Cost may well be a driver, but for me not having to talk to people who believe they add soul to inanimate objects would be a selling point!

Call it what you will but working with wood is a lot like working with some animate object.  At least for me and the OP.

I also like good design... but a Thomson stem (or whatever your thing) isn't the same type of nice to me as an imperfect wooden item.  I appreciate that isn't the same for everyone but think plenty of people do appreciate the process that goes into wood.  Specifically part of his is making decisions due to the wood's imperfections (Even if a power tool is used)

Er, it's not carpentry though is it, there is no craft involved, it's hardly different from the CNC cut flat pack furniture now. And altering a few sizes is perfectly possible to do now with existing technology, in my book that's not truly bespoke.

I design store fixtures and furniture and often need to have different variants or sixes of different pieces, I don't redraw it every time, I just configure certain dimensions and features, the CAD model updates and then sends out a file to the CNC machine.

Now if the software took a drawing with overall sizes, worked out the construction and spit it in to panels to be cut, that would be impressive.

but a Thomson stem (or whatever your thing) isn’t the same type of nice to me as an imperfect wooden item.

Of course, but the robot in the article isn't intended to replace hand made individualistic imperfect items.  It's a robot.

This machine has several problems. Two big one below

#1. Many small custom jobs don't require a model to be draw. It's quicker just to get to work.

#2. The safety requirements for a automated circular saw are extensive. You could not have it set up in a room on its own with out light curtains as a minimum.

Full automation for jobs like this doesn't work for a long time.

I currently work as a programmer in the automation industry, have programmed in other industries in science and engineering so have experience in the practical side and the raw algorithm side.

The group said the goal was not to replace human carpenters but to allow them to focus on more important tasks such as design.

Interesting idea, but this comes across as a bit arrogant. Why should "design" be more important than actually making things with your own hands?

Next thing you know, somebody will be adding electric motors to bicycles to allow mountain bikers to concentrate on more important things than pedalling 🙂

Why should “design” be more important than actually making things with your own hands?

Not sure, not sure I care but if you can't design it then you can't make it (even if you don't draw or write it down it's still been designed)

Why should “design” be more important than actually making things with your own hands?

Of course, but the robot in the article isn’t intended to replace hand made individualistic imperfect items.  It’s a robot.

I agree... I appreciate both but differently.

But if i want a stem or seat post I'm happy with a Robot manufactured item.

For my fireplace I'm happier with my hand-made .. faults and all... and part of the reason I like it are the shakes in the oak and the fact it's not quite perfect.  It's made from a sleeper and some agricultural grade oak... but I cheated and its bolted together with 1/2" cut off 1" oak dowels covering the hidden bolts but its twisted slightly as it's continued to season (being next to a fire).

Quite honestly it wouldn't be the same if I'd cut some MDF and put a veneer over it even though to a casual observer it would be straighter and not have shakes.  In my eyes at least its "crafted"

On the other hand my Thomson dropper is beautifully "engineered".

I think there is a place for crafted and one for engineered... Robot Crafted though doesn't work for me.  (Though if it works for you then all's well and good)

I understand the objection, but to my mind this sounds a bit like when films get remade.  Ghostbusters with women leads?  YOU'VE RUINED MY CHILDHOOD!!1!  But the thing is, the new thing doesn't automatically mean that the old thing ceases to exist.  It's still there for you to watch and enjoy just as you always did.  Robots making furniture isn't going to prevent anyone else from making furniture if that's what they want to do.

And altering a few sizes is perfectly possible to do now with existing technology,

It's been possible for near enough 20 years, i did a CADDS 5 Parametric design course that allowed us to tweak and modify design features on the model, it'd then cascade to match all the other dimensions on the model and the drawings. So link that to a 3D pritner and you're away.

Cost you a few million though.

I mean, thats all this is really, a parametric modelling 3D flat pack "printer".

Quite honestly it wouldn’t be the same if I’d cut some MDF and put a veneer over it

No but it would have been a hell of a lot cheaper.  Cost is an issue. It's all well and good waxing lyrical about bespoke and handmade, but it's out of reach for most people.  Don't forget that and don't look down on cheapness because you're well off.

What if the robot is hand made?

only if its made by an artisan robot builder.

It’s how they have been part of my life that puts soul into my inanimate objects

I’d suggest that you’re talking about character. Use brings character, making provides* soul.

*or doesn’t

I’d suggest that

It's all bollocks and what you make of it.... unless you like to tell the tale of how your table was made from unicorn horns and finished with fairy tears.

Personally this is one where in my opinion the OP has missed the point

Try machining soul into something made from wood, ain’t never gonna happen!

It’s all bollocks

Calm down dear. And what’s all this talk of unicorns? Do you own any handmade or bespoke furniture? Do you own anything made by a highly skilled, sympathetic maker or artist?

Yes I do, some exceptional one off pottery pieces and some other things, however you don't know the emotion and feelings the maker put into these things, he could have been thinking how much they are coining it in from mugs or how much they hate their lives and would rather be in IT.

If I presented 2 objects to you and told you one was made by hand by a loving maker who was free range and able to roam free would it be worth more than the identical one next to it that just had a price label? What if you picked up the wrong one and had been telling people your table was free range but was in fact only designed by a nice person who owned a robot rather than some power tools?

Never argue with a fool. They’ll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience every time...

No but it would have been a hell of a lot cheaper.  Cost is an issue. It’s all well and good waxing lyrical about bespoke and handmade, but it’s out of reach for most people.  Don’t forget that and don’t look down on cheapness because you’re well off.

Not that much cheaper.... £35 for the sleeper (more or less cut in half) and £17 for the timber I used for the mantle (though half of that was reused for shelves in the kitchen) and I think £2 for the dowel I cut up... and maybe £5 worth of coach screws and £10 for the fixing bolts (hardly want a 50kg surround falling on the kid) ... Add a tenner for wearing through plane, sandpaper and another tenner for the Danish oil.

All in well less than £100 for something that will last longer than I do!

or at local rates that's less than 20 pints....

thanks.... I leave you trying to shove sole into inanimate objects 😉

All in well less than £100 for something that will last longer than I do!

Right, but you did it yourself.  In general, paying a carpenter for bespoke furniture (what this thread is about) is expensive.

Well I do a lot of timber manufacture. It's all CNC'd and it's pretty bespoke. This includes oak framed buildings. I agree, you can see the difference in hand cut vs's my machines. Mine fit. You don't get the bodge marks from site adjustments, they also don't leak (and most oak building do). So, maybe less soul, but they are better in every other way.

So, this technology thing (and lets be clear, the stupid robot in the clip is at the very basic end of machines that I've had for over 10 years, so it isn't new!) can be a good thing.

Lets look at cars next - I reckon CNC and automation has improved the product. I know the old Jags they they'd forgotten to put a gearbox in had character but lets be honest, they were also shit!

Here's the sort of thing....

and in another company that makes this type of product (not me)

All in well less than £100 for something that will last longer than I do!

or at local rates that’s less than 20 pints….

I don't know much about furniture, but I know I'd be finding somewhere else to drink.

I don’t know much about furniture, but I know I’d be finding somewhere else to drink.

COL "down souff" mate.... or south of London

With what I drink now that's about my yearly cost.

#2. The safety requirements for a automated circular saw are extensive. You could not have it set up in a room on its own with out light curtains as a minimum.

Surely that’s one of its advantages?  You’d have it in a room (or controlled zone) with no people and interlocked access so if someone comes in it cuts off.  That is fairly trivial to implement.

Calm down dear. And what’s all this talk of unicorns? Do you own any handmade or bespoke furniture? Do you own anything made by a highly skilled, sympathetic maker or artist?

I certainly do, some ceramics, and a lovely little wooden box that I keep personal items like my watches in, all of which I treasure for the craftsmanship that went into them.

However, I wouldn’t decry the use of machines like that, particularly in situations like tinybits describes, where custom-designed and built wood-framed buildings can be created with the minimum of waste, and a guarantee that joints will fit.

Of course, with the proviso that whoever did the math in the first place got it right.

🙃

I was with you until marh......

Tinybits - do you actually make the stuff out of wood?  Or just the components that someone else assembles?

I make the components, roofs, framework, doors, windows etc then assemble on site. I do quite a lot - a building a day on average. All done with no ‘soul’ on CNC machines.

This is one of the delivery robots we have around Milton Keynes

I snapped a picture of it as it passed & then another as it passed some homeless guys coz the juxtaposition seemed odd.

The robot said hello to the homeless guys as it passed.

No one else does that.

Surely that’s one of its advantages?

Not if you are setting it up at a customer s house. If you are in a dedicated production environment it is a awful machine. It looks like they are trying to replace site carpenter work. Setting up a dedicated area or room in someone's house is frequently not possible and would slow down or reduce many of the supposing speed advantages. It's just a crap machine tbh.

TheBrick - I think you’ve missed the point of academic research this isn’t a prototype of an actual production system intended to be used in the “wild” it is research - it is about understanding problems and potential solutions.  In this case the problem isn’t really even a carpentry one it’s about understanding how you might automate processes performed by multiple machines and do assembly at relatively low cost.

I understand the point, I have worked in accadimia, I just think that they are aiming at the wrong problem herre. I am also trying to explain to people who think this is a brilliant solution for carpenters why it isn't and why it is so far off being useful in the wild. Partly due to real industrial safety requirements and party due to real life task requirements, so there is no worries for these jobs.

I don't think anyone is saying it's a good solution for carpenters - even the application shown is not site carpentry.

What the discussion is over is that automation means making a timber product that's not lovingly hand crafted. I'm saying that that's not an issue in the applications so far used as examples (oak frame buildings / boats to use 2 I remember without hunting back)

I've also pointed out that it's not new technology and can't see how the hell it's on the BBC web site when I've got much more advanced machines that have been cutting timber for over 10 years at our factory!

I wonder if this machine is more flexible than yours though?

It may be, but I strongly doubt it. My larger machine has 40+ pre set tool stations and 5 axis machining. Can work on 2 different pieces of timber at once and will work on circa 300mm upto 4000mm pieces.

as far as I can tell, the one in the clip works in 3 dimensions and has 1 tool. Lots of them will be able to do different jobs of course, but that’s more than 1 machine!

Found this today...

https://www.bp.com/en_gb/united-kingdom/products-services/bpme.html

It's an BP App that allows you to pay for fuel at BP stations. So ****ing stupid on so many fronts

Phones cause petrol stations to explode - everyone knows that

Exploding Samsung phones cause petrol stations to explode even more

Having 99 different apps linked to payment methods is an increased security risk

Having a payment method that depends on batteries and internet access is dumb

People are stupid and will sit in their cars multi-tasking between paying for fuel and doing social media bollocks whilst people sit patiently behind

Unlike all other payment methods it only works with BP

And yet people will now go to BP to buy fuel just so they don't have to communicate with another human. BP sells more fuel. BP wins.

Seems like a brilliant application of technology to me - as long as you're BP.

I don’t think anyone is saying it’s a good solution for carpenters – even the application shown is not site carpentry.

What the discussion is over is that automation means making a timber product that’s not lovingly hand crafted. I’m saying that that’s not an issue in the applications so far used as examples (oak frame buildings / boats to use 2 I remember without hunting back)

Yep ... that sums it up ....

IMVHO there is nothing wrong with purely functional furniture.... but then I'm just looking at the functionally.

e.g. My office chair/desk etc.

I have no interest in it being handcrafted or looking like it is.

However .. for my kitchen table etc. either its functional or its hand crafted .... I'm not interested in faux hand-crafted.

Phones cause petrol stations to explode – everyone knows that

Really?  Is there a single case anywhere in the world where a phone has caused a petrol station to explode?

Indeed .. remember carburettors and open spark plugs?  A device specially designed to fuse petrol to explode... any case of any causing a garage to explode EVER ???

Exploding Samsung phones cause petrol stations to explode even more

I've seen people smoking whilst filling a petrol tank... (Not in the UK) ... still no explosions

Having 99 different apps linked to payment methods is an increased security risk

Fair point

Having a payment method that depends on batteries and internet access is dumb

It already does... unless you pay for fuel by cash... even then i wonder if they can even open the till without network access.

People are stupid and will sit in their cars multi-tasking between paying for fuel and doing social media bollocks whilst people sit patiently behind

Unlike all other payment methods it only works with BP

BP presumably prefer this is their forecourt than Shell....

I'm thinking a bigger home goal is if it allows us to decide where we fill up based on cost.

My fuel buying is controlled by petrol prices.com

I go to a BP nearly weekly.... I get a coffee and hot choc (for Jnr) on the way to the trails.... but I don't remember having bought fuel there.

It’s an BP App that allows you to pay for fuel at BP stations. So **** stupid on so many fronts

Integrates with my preferred existing payment mechanism (Appplepay), much more secure (especially given how prevalent card scams are at petrol stations!) & much quicker as there'll be no queues!

Definitely the future.

Really?  Is there a single case anywhere in the world where a phone has caused a petrol station to explode?

Having 99 different apps linked to payment methods is an increased security risk

Fair point

Breathe easy Mythbusters fans. From the BPMe FAQ

Am I allowed to use a mobile phone at a petrol station?
You can use your phone when you’re inside your stationary vehicle or when you’re in the BP store.

So it looks like you're still a menace to society anywhere near a petrol pump.

(PS I don't actually believe that explosion shit but BP and other fuel retailers have been peddling it for years so I'm just perpetuating their view in order to maintain the fact that this app is a pile of cack). I'm not a total luddite though - I would suggest that the car parking apps are a complete genius solving two genuine problems of 1 - no change/dicky 20p's, 2 - wanting to overstay

Phones cause petrol stations to explode – everyone knows that

Spent a few months in the same hotel as a bunch of Comms guy ~15 - 20 years ago when I was working in Morocco and they were installing the mobile network. The don't use your phone thing whilst filling up was that certain old Nokia's had been found to reset or stop certain petrol pumps displays from working properly. Easier to say you would die in a massive flaming fireball than to advertise 'free fuel when you fill up here'

I don’t think it is actually, at least the way ApplePay works. No idea about other payment options though.

I think the point that I agree with is that the more payment types you have the more chance you don't even notice a transaction ...

I'm not that keen on contact-less but I know if I lost my wallet... and i can check the transactions look good.

Meanwhile ... I got Amazon Pay, PayPal and a bunch of other ways to pay... not to mention other cards etc. so trying to reconcile and make sure I haven't paid for anything I shouldn't have just gets more complex.