[Closed] When is a placebo, not a placebo?

yes.

Or it means that something else is working, or good old regression to mean.

Arnica works really really well for things that get better on their own.

Ian - I was thinking that it might just be 'time' sorting it out TBH. That and I'm massaging the hell out of the injury whilst applying the cream.

Still can't understand why homeopaths believe that a weaker dilution makes the thing stronger 😕 I was trying to buy 100% Arnica... seems it's not the done thing 🙁

Yup, I've never got the weaker is better thing. I mean presumably tap water cures everything.

Ah, but you see, with tap water, you've not shaken it in a special way.

(the jokes write themselves, don't they)

I kind of like the idea that it's the [i]memory[/i] of the arnica that makes it homeopathic. (since to get a single usable molecule into a 10,000c arnica pill at the way they are supposed to 'dilute' it, you pill would have to be the size of the moon or thereabouts)

Which according to the old 'water cycle', also means your tap water could have the 'memory' of all sorts of other great molecules and stuff. Alcohol, sugar, uranium, George V, gold, the possibilities are endless! 😀

I'm worried that because they buried Bin Laden at sea that I'm now getting enough residual evilness every time I have a glass of tap water to have an effect on me.

I think you'll be okay, the allowable levels of arsenic in drinking water are already far higher than the levels of Bin Laden or indeed homeopathic cures.

So I'm now evil and poisoned with arsenic 🙁

There was an interesting article in New Scientist about a study that showed the placebo affect could be prescribed.

Essentially they gave out sugar pills told people they were receiving a plecebo, explained how a plecebo worked. Interestingly the results showed improvements in condition at a similar level to those receiveing sugar pills but did not know they were.

Dosn't answer your question but HTH. 🙂

Incidentally, if you get a minute the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy ]Wikipedia[/url] entry is a great read. The paragraph on "imponderables" is particularly hilarious.

I find I need a 500Mg placebo these days. The 250Mg ones just don't work anymore.

If you take something that you know to be utter homeopathic BS, knowing full well that it won't work, but then it seems to work... does this still mean it's a placebo?

Correlation => causation?

As with all things homeopathic..........TIME is a great healer

I'm massaging the hell out of the injury

This may be why it's improving, try continuing the massage but with a water based cream (E45) and see what happens.

I was in Holland And Barret on Saturday. I said to the manager "Do you still sell Glucosamine?" When she said that they did, I said "Oh that's surprising because clinical tests show that it has no effect whatsoever on human skeletal joints". To which she replied:

"Oh well, it's like anything - there's positive and negative".

Oh well, that's O.K., then...

"Oh well, it's like anything - there's positive and negative".

Negative: it doesn't work. Positive: people will buy any old shit from us.

See also: Boots selling homeopathic remedies. Call me old fashioned but shouldn't a chemist be selling, y'know, medicine? I've less of an issue with it in Holland & Barratt, stuck between the veggie hot-dogs and the pixie dust, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a pharmacy not to be selling sugar pills in 2011.

That and I'm massaging the hell out of 'the injury' whilst applying the cream.

Is that what you call it?

Our local chemist sells those £30 power balance bracelets.........

😯

I was actually advised to get the cream by a GP on Friday. Bought the sugar pills just to complete the set... was hoping there might be at least something other than sugar in them, but there isn't.

Would like to try jsut eating Arnica undiluted to see what it does.

I was in Holland And Barret on Saturday. I said to the manager "Do you still sell Glucosamine?" When she said that they did, I said "Oh that's surprising because clinical tests show that it has no effect whatsoever on human skeletal joints". To which she replied:

"Oh well, it's like anything - there's positive and negative".

Oh well, that's O.K., then...

Ohhhhhh get you.

If it's all mumbo jumbo, the what were you doing in H&B? If it's not for the yogurt raisins then I'm calling BS on your post!

From personal experiance, when I had bad joints and had become intolerant to NSAIDs one doc said glucosamine and condroitin were shown to have a mildly anti inflamatory effect so worth the money, the other said they were cheeper than anythig else that may/may not have an effect and they had never been shown to make things worse.

Grum - in that instance would I really want the swelling to go down?

Placebo and Placebo effect are two different things.

A placebo 'should' have no value, but sometimes they do. This is the placebo effect and can be a reet nuisance as it's really difficult to explain clinically.

So, if you take arnica, you may get a placebo effect even if there's no clinically provable benefit. It's the clinically provable bit that's important with arnica or glucosamine - as long as the bottles don't state that clinical benefit is proven, they can be pretty much sold for any reason.

So whether crystals, magnets, spells, or homeopathy works is impossible (today) to prove. Whether they do 'work' or whether they induce a form of self-healing we don't understand or whether it's all utter bollox is beyond proving.

Having said all of that - beer works for almost all ills.

beer works for almost all ills.

I can guarantee you that for haemotomas on your legs, drinking a lot and standing around in pubs, will not make it better, this is a medically researched FACT.

If it's all mumbo jumbo, the what were you doing in H&B? If it's not for the yogurt raisins then I'm calling BS on your post!

Sandwich spread. Really, "this is not..." grumpy Monday morning, is it?

Have you tried massaging the beer into your legs?

I said nothing about drinking it.....

Ahhh... Maybe I could spill a couple of drops onto my leg this evening.

What about red wine? That's got anti-oxidants in it, right?

if you need to get rid of a black eye quickly, take arnica.

[i]if you need to get rid of a black eye quickly, take arnica.[/i]

Why?

Why?

Arnica cream however is not "homeopathy" in its traditional sense (where you dilute the hell out it). It is simply a natural product of the Arnica plant suspended in a gel. There are measurable levels of the natural product in there.

Whether it is actually effective, or any more effective than rubbing the same cream without the "active ingredient" is unknown - but it could be.

Fair point Poly - the cream I've got is 0.9% Arnica... I was hoping for 50% or something.

Incidentally, if you get a minute the Wikipedia entry is a great read. The paragraph on "imponderables" is particularly hilarious

Ah the naysayers of STW out again. If placebo works (which it does) why dismiss it? The nocebo effect also can work (reverse placebo) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1931727,00.html

In the case of glucosamine there have been clinical trials both in favor and against it. Have a read on pubmed.

Western medicine can be so dogmatic that it will disregard something because it doesn't fit into a particular box, possibly missing that it may actually be helpful and the test is flawed.

I'm not against western medicine it and think that crystals and magnets etc are probably a load of shite, but if works go for it, I say (as long as it is not being peddled as panacea and you have exhausted other methods)

kudos100 +1

Except I

think that crystals and magnets etc are [i]definitely[/i] a load of shite,

Arnica cream however is not "homeopathy" in its traditional sense

Some is, some isn't - you can get homeopathic arnica preparations and regular ones. Amusingly, the stuff with active ingredients falls under medicine regulations that homeopathy doesn't; so, the homeopathic remedy can claim efficacy and the medicine can't.

crikey - Member
if you need to get rid of a black eye quickly, take arnica.

Why?

why not?
there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the bruising develops and ultimately fades more quickly.

Take it orally, like as in homeopathic remedy?

If placebo works (which it does) why dismiss it?

Because then people start taking homeopathy instead of things like chemotherapy.

In the case of glucosamine there have been clinical trials both in favor and against it.

Can you show me a trial in favour of it that wasn't sponsored by a drug company that sells the stuff or by someone who otherwise has a vested interest? Far as I knew, there aren't any.

there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the bruising develops and ultimately fades more quickly

Ah, but it has not been double blind tested, so cannot possibly have any benefit.

[i]anecdotal evidence[/i]
Oxymoron?

Are there any decent actual trials to show a difference?

I'm not asking in a typical STW I don't agree therefore you are dim way, I'm genuinely interested to know if it works.

Ive got pretty badly bruised forearms from an over enthusiastic karate session at the weekend. Slapped arnica all over the bruises and I think its helped stop then going black, they are now just bit red.

Who knows if they would have been worse if I hadn't used it.

If placebo works (which it does) why dismiss it?

That's a bit of a philosphical question though isn't it as it

Western medicine can be so dogmatic that it will disregard something because it doesn't fit into a particular box, possibly missing that it may actually be helpful and the test is flawed.

As homeopathy was invented in Europe, doesn't that make it Western Medicine? "Western" medicine does not disregard things becuase they "don't fit into a particualr box". Anything that works gets incoporated and the stuff that doesn't work gets thrown away, simple as that. If standard pharmacuticals presented the sort of evidence that gets shown for "alternative" medicine, no drug would ever get approved.

Are there any decent actual trials to show a difference?

I've been taking multiples of the recommended dosage since Saturday and [s]I'm getting sweet cravings[/s] the haemotoma has started going down, three weeks after the accident and I'm regaining some mobility too.

[i]the haemotoma has started going down, [b]three weeks[/b] after the accident [/i]

I would think that the time scale involved should not be ignored in any improvement.

Ive got pretty badly bruised forearms from an over enthusiastic karate session at the weekend. Slapped arnica all over the bruises and I think its helped stop then going black, they are now just bit red.

Who knows if they would have been worse if I hadn't used it.

Because then people start taking homeopathy instead of things like chemotherapy.

If you had read all of my post........

I'm not against western medicine it and think that crystals and magnets etc are probably a load of shite, but if works go for it, I say (as long as it is not being peddled as panacea and you have exhausted other methods)

Can you show me a trial in favour of it that wasn't sponsored by a drug company that sells the stuff or by someone who otherwise has a vested interest? Far as I knew, there aren't any.

As I said, look on pubmed. I cannot be arsed to find the studies, but they are out there. I am testing it at the moment. It costs me £2.50 a month (less than a pint) and if I feel like I have less aches and pains after a few months it is hardly going to break the bank.

😉 It wasn't going down before I started taking it though, nor was my mobility improving.

aracer - in the interest of science I haven't applied the cream to all of the bruising on my leg. 🙂

A pill the size of the Moon. Imagine...

I was in Holland And Barret on Saturday. I said to the manager "Do you still sell Glucosamine?" When she said that they did, I said "Oh that's surprising because clinical tests show that it has no effect whatsoever on human skeletal joints".

What a wonderful customer she mustuv thought you were...

This is what you want Elfy...

"Western" medicine does not disregard things becuase they "don't fit into a particualr box". Anything that works gets incoporated and the stuff that doesn't work gets thrown away, simple as that

The placebo effect has been proven to work and yet it is ignored.......

Doctors have bugger all understanding of how the mind works (not the brain) so anything that helps is worth considering, not being ingnored due to lack of understanding.

Would you prefer an optimistic doctor or a pessimistic one? I know which I'd prefer and it has nothing to do with double blind studies.

there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the bruising develops and ultimately fades more quickly.

Anecdote != evidence.

it has not been double blind tested,

Maybe you need to blacken both eyes then.

I cannot be arsed to find the studies, but they are out there.

You're the one making claims that they exist, I'm going to adopt a stance of "you're wrong" unless you can substantiate it.

I am testing it at the moment. It costs me £2.50 a month (less than a pint) and if I feel like I have less aches and pains after a few months it is hardly going to break the bank.

... which is exactly the sort of thinking that keeps these shysters in business.

Would you prefer a optimistic doctor or a pessimistic one?

I think I'd prefer a professional one rather than one who made stuff up. I go to a doctor for medical treatment, not a nice cup of tea and a sit down.

crikey - Member
Are there any decent actual trials to show a difference?

does there need to be? If you dont want help/advice thats up to you, no skin off my nose

for unofficial trials please consult my kickboxing class or the MMA fighters and rugby players i know, some people dont bother with it, some find it helps a bit, some swear by it.

certainly does no harm and im not sure there is a chemotherapy option to remove a shiner.

... which is exactly the sort of thinking that keeps these shysters in business.

Except.....

The placebo effect has been proven to work and yet it is ignored.......

[i]The placebo effect has been proven to work and yet it is ignored[/i]

Can you elaborate on this?

It's very difficult, both philosophically and professionally, not to mention legally, to offer a treatment to someone that is dependent on so many variables. The placebo effect is related to how people think a treatment is going to work; the idea that injections are seen as superior to tablets or liquid medicine for example, so to utilise a placebo treatment most effectively, one would have to lie about it...

The placebo effect has been proven to work and yet it is ignored.......

Define "work" in this particular context. The only situations that I am aware of where it could be described as having an effect are for subjective self limiting and self reported symptoms. For anything with an objective measurments they are, to the best of my knoledge, useless. E.g. I want a real vaccine for the 'flu not a placebo one!

anecdotal evidence.

"dont touch that fence, its electric, you will get a shock"

there is only anecdotal evidence, till you try it yourself.

Some people swear by their OCD?

If the potion I've bought actually contains nothing, which it doesn't, then next time I can save myself some money and take a spoonful of sugar 4x a day, as long as someone can convince me it might work.

soobalis - is it the cream or the tablets you take?

[i]certainly does no harm[/i]

Ahem:

[i]Small, single doses of the herb are considered safe to use on the skin. Repeated use can cause skin reactions, severe inflammation, itching, blisters, skin ulcers, and other allergy-related skin problems. Use of very concentrated herb on the skin can increase the risk of irritation. Using the drug on broken skin or mucous membranes can irritate and increase the risk of more serious reactions.

Internal use is not recommended because arnica may cause vomiting, diarrhea, internal bleeding, rapid heartbeat, muscle weakness, nervousness, nosebleeds, and coma. At least one death has been reported. Arnica may reduce the effectiveness of medicines for high blood pressure and increase the risk of bleeding in people who take blood-thinning medications. People taking medicines that affect the heart's rhythm or function may have more serious effects from arnica.

People who are allergic to arnica may suffer runny nose, itching, hives, shortness of breath, and shock. Those with allergies to other members of the plant family Asteraceae, such as sunflowers, echinacea, marigolds, chamomile, or ragweed may be more likely to be allergic to arnica.

Effects on pregnant women and children are not well known. Women who are pregnant or breast-feeding should not use this herb. Relying on this type of treatment alone and avoiding or delaying conventional medical care for cancer may have serious health consequences
[/i]
From: http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideEffects/ComplementaryandAlternativeMedicine/HerbsVitaminsandMinerals/arnica

[i]anecdotal evidence.

"dont touch that fence, its electric, you will get a shock"

there is only anecdotal evidence, till you try it yourself.[/i]

Really?

You don't go to the same swimming baths as Elfin do you? 😉

Crikey - the homeopath (read hippy at work) told me I couldn't take too much 😕 I'm worried now, I've been taking about 5 times the number of pills I should be. 😆

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12374520?dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11904551?dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11548224?dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12405690?dopt=Abstract

Here are a few. Admittedly if you search there are more against than for, but I am open minded and have learned from experience that Western medicine does not always have the answers to everything.

I'm off to chat about what espresso machine to buy.......

kudos100 - Member
The placebo effect has been proven to work and yet it is ignored.......

Doctors have been using the placebo effect for centuries, it's just they prefer to call it 'good bedside manner' 😉

Western medicine can be so dogmatic that it will disregard something because it doesn't fit into a particular box, possibly missing that it may actually be helpful and the test is flawed.

I think that's rubbish. Western pharmaceutical companies would sell ANYTHING if they could prove it works, cos they could make huge sums of cash out of it. Things 'fitting into a box' or not has nothing to do with it.

have learned from experience that Western medicine does not always have the answers to everything

The only people who EVER say things like that are the people who want to promote alternative medicine. Western medicine knows full well it doesn't have all the answers. It's blindingly obvious of course, because people are still dying.

[i]the [b]homeopath[/b] told me I couldn't take too much I'm worried now, I've been taking about 5 times the number of pills I should be.[/i]

There is a joke in there somewhere about overdosing on homeopathic medicine; I think Dara O'Briain said 'Yes, you can overdose on homeopathic remedies; you drown'...

'Western' medicine is certainly not infallible; look up the story of Xigris, which has just been withdrawn..

and have learned from experience that Western medicine does not always have the answers to everything.

that doesn't mean you get to make stuff up.

*with thanks to Dara O'Briain

Doctors have been using the placebo effect for centuries, it's just they prefer to call it 'good bedside manner'

Exactly. How many doctors have you come across that have no social skills and can't even look you in the eye? I've had a fair few.

I think it has improved now, but doctors used to spend 1 day out of 5 or 6 years training on communication skills with patients.

As I have said we know bugger all about the workings of the mind, but we do know the placebo effect can be positive, it makes sense for doctors to try and communicate effectively and not carry on like they are god 😉

I am not against western medicine and believe it is great for certain things, but don't rule out alternative methods because they only have anecdotal evidence.

"dont touch that fence, its electric, you will get a shock"

That's not anecdotal evidence, it's readily, demonstrably provable.

Here are a few. Admittedly if you search there are more against than for

They're also small and out of date.

*with thanks to Dara O'Briain

Also, "science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it'd stop."

don't rule out alternative methods because they only have anecdotal evidence.

That's the sort of wooly thinking that sells power bands.

But anyway. I don't think anyone is; we're ruling out alternative methods because they've failed to prove efficacy during testing.

Elfinsafety - Member
What a wonderful customer she mustuv thought you were...

Oh? Why's that, then?

Oh? Why's that, then?

Because she's employed to scan items on a checkout rather than evaluate the validity of peer-reviewed studies of all their products?

I'd love to pull up Boots on their "wellbeing" range, but there's be little point in taking to task Sheila in Cosmetics about it.

TSY, what have you done/what have i missed when i've been away??

Arnica tabs and cream are a must for me when injured/bruised.

Arnica tabs and cream are a must for me when injured/bruised.

Why?

Fell off my bike 🙂

[url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/enjoyable-sore-legs ]Pictures on this thread.[/url]

Are you going to do a write up of your tour?

I think with your Arnica cream its a herbal remedy rather than homeopathy
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnica ]Wikipedia Arnica[/url]
Not really interested in tests for homeopathic remedies, simply reading the theory behind it is enough to make up my mind thats its nonsense.

Cougar - Member

Oh? Why's that, then?

Because she's employed to scan items on a checkout rather than evaluate the validity of peer-reviewed studies of all their products?

You have a point.

Edit, just seen your edit, will go look at the thread now. Yup, going to write up my blog and post up piccies too. Reality is a huge shock 🙁