Well that’s the history behind it. Thanks mefty.
What is the justification of trivialising a horrific weapon of war by having an “amusing” reference to detonation?
Edit : Just to be clear I have no issue at all with light-hearted references to wars, eg I loved the Carlsberg Dambuster adverts, but the whole point of the Remembrance Sunday/Poppy Appeal is, I thought, to have a sombre reminder of the horrors of war.
There’s a time and a place.
The subject of this thread is in people's mind because of the time of year, but the RBL do incredible work all year round to support the living, not just remember the dead. Remembrance is a relatively small part of their actual work, although the poppy appeal is of course an important fund raiser. But they also run events (including cycling and running events) and sell lots of merchandise.
They also sell tea, beer, Christmas cards, coffee, sports kit etc. Non of these are 'sombre reminders of war', nor intended to be used in remembrance (they sell plenty of wreathes etc for that), but just to raise funds for the organisation year round. Many of them, including the rum, are sold as part of their 'veterans market' - giving a platform for veteran run small businesses and also raising funds for the legion's work - win, win.
The post above highlighting the rum strikes me as someone trawling their website, just looking for something to take offence at. Sad
The post above highlighting the rum strikes me as someone trawling their website, just looking for something to take offence at. Sad
It wasn't me that posted it but...
It popped up on Twitter although how many people were reading/retweeting it with the intent of being professionally offended by "poor taste tat" and how many had looked beyond the initial image to the story behind it, who knows.
The problem is that there is so much tat now, so much overt "I'm remembrancing!!", that actual veteran-led initiatives get caught up in it. My first thought on looking at that rum thing was indeed to think that it was bandwagon jumping: "grenade" plus alcohol plus the name - it just seemed (to me) a bit like buying a commemorative mug or plate where you're more concerned about being seen to buy and have said tat than actually caring about what it represents.
I spotted this in Swansea yesterday, I thought the googly eyes really help with the respectful, sombre tone of the ‘piece’.
The shit parking ....
The post above highlighting the rum strikes me as someone trawling their website, just looking for something to take offence at. Sad
Thanks - saw it on Twitter and, whilst I appreciate and support any and all fundraising for the RBL, it did (and does) strike me as uncomfortably dissonant that a charity that helps veterans is selling an alcoholic beverage with a hand grenade motif, given A) the relatively high incidence of alcoholism amongst veterans and B) the very much higher incidence of PTSD amongst veterans with specific regard to their exposure to explosive devices like hand grenades. But hey, you and the RBL think differently so maybe I'm just a miserable git, we're all adults so having different opinions is fine.
We’re basically a moderate country politically and most governments have reflected that.
Moderate?
There was nothing moderate about the 1945 British government which established the principal of universal free healthcare, a total unique concept in the Western world.
Nor was there anything moderate about the 1979 British government which launched a mass privatisation of huge industries and utility providers, again quite unique in the Western world at that time.
Though in recent times it does feel we’re diverting to ever more extremes.
Those two examples I gave are pretty definitive post-war British governments so "non-moderate" British governments is nothing new.
I spotted this in Swansea yesterday, I thought the googly eyes really help with the respectful, sombre tone of the ‘piece’.
That's Tredz carpark. Our hero is a cyclist?
we’re all adults so having different opinions is fine.
👍 Agree. And adults ('even' veterans) should be free to buy a bottle of hooch from the off licence, or even the RBL if they fancy it 😉
👍 Agree. And adults (‘even’ veterans) should be free to buy a bottle of hooch from the off licence, or even the RBL if they fancy it 😉
Got no problem with that. 🙂
No need to tell us what you think about it wobbliscot, you told us already on page 3 of the thread, here's just a taste...
"Just like taking the knee, glueing yourself to a road and stopping traffic and ambulances pulling down statues of people by people (mostly white rich middle class people) who have no idea about who the statue is and why the statue was erected in the first place"
Your first contribution to the thread was to bring up taking the knee, you were looking for a symbol you could weaponise to troll those who have a different political or social perspective (or colour) than your own and you found it in the poppy.
You remind me of like that plastic patriot who was beating a policeman with a blue lives matter flag at the capitol building.
But closer to home...are you -
The mad bag lady from Father Ted?
Our Culture Secretary?
Jim Davidson?
A Middlesbrough fan?
Or the the owner of one of those cars on the previous page?
We’re basically a moderate country politically and most governments have reflected that.
What? Our current government is tipping into fascism and is hard right wing. Moderate is the german centre right. tories are hard or far right and a very extreme government deliberately stoking racism, deliberately impoverishing large sectors of the population and its adherence to libertarianism has resulted in huge numbers of deaths
50 000 alone died from Austerity
Our current government is tipping into fascism
It's just a matter of time before they arrest Keir Starmer and execute him.
How appropriate to raise it on this thread.
What? Our current government is tipping into fascism and is hard right wing.
Bollox like this aways diminishes the fight against real facists
Boris the spendoholic is taxing and spending like a socialist, he might talk differently, but it's the reality
Yeah Johnson isn't a socialist but let's not derail this thread entirely.
Although if I may point out that when TJ talks of Johnson killing 50,000 through austerity I assume he is referring to this article in the Guardian last month :
The problem is that the article refers to the 2010-15 period long before Johnson was PM. So presumably that makes David Cameron and Nick Clegg almost fascists.
Although it might be more appropriate to call Nick Clegg a Vichy Government style collaborator, to vaguely steer the thread back on topic.
Let's be real, it doesn't take much for certain sections of society to flip almost anything into some Nationalist ****fest. This discussion spins around every year, starts the same way, goes through the same hoops as last, and fades as quickly as it began.
I encountered those sorts at almost all of the public facing occasions I had to spend time on over the course of my career.
But the noise of these mouth-breathers doesn't interfere with the thoughts in my own head when I think of those i've lost and the deeper impact of conflict on all those involved.
Why should it? They're irrelevant.
ut the noise of these mouth-breathers doesn’t interfere with the thoughts in my own head when I think of those i’ve lost and the deeper impact of conflict on all those involved.
Why should it? They’re irrelevant.
My concerns are the more this fetishisation becomes normalised, the greater the pushback against those that don't participate - for example, as referred to earlier, the demonisation of anyone in the public sphere that doesn't wear a poppy on television. Definitely a thing that has only really become an issue over the last 5 - 10 years or so, but now seems almost normal for the flag-shaggers to have a pop at someone.
Soon we'll have compulsory rembrancing or else...
I've felt it growing before that. Like I said in an earlier post it definitely took a sharp rise when it was hijacked to garner support for Iraq/Afghanistan.
To be fair, war has always been a fetish in this country, it appeals to the baser nature of a great many. When you've seen it up close your opinion can mature rather quickly though.
But what isn't politicised today? We're a nation that reacts to/compares against/judges things from a place of identity and emotion.
That gives people space to play silly buggers.
Soon we’ll have compulsory rembrancing or else…
I doubt we will honestly. It's a annual event (the froth over poppies) that just gets out of hand and few folks get much publicity and the social media bots get dusted off, and cranked up a gear or two. Meanwhile in the real world, no one is being lynched or cares really whether one wears a poppy or not. I mean, I keep meaning to get one, but honestly I've had a hard time over the last couple of days to find some-one who can sell me one.
What @nickc said.
Also, it's why I have an enamel one. Less faff every year, but I can still throw money their way online.
TBH in contrast to the blanket wearing of poppies on the TV, I think fewer people in the real world wear poppies now than maybe 20/30 years ago and certainly fewer than when I was a kid.
Not sure if it's because people don't wear traditional coats and jackets any more or the whether people are being put off by how far it's all been taken by some.
Hopefully it isn't impacting on RBL donations.
As I mentioned before - I have one on my jacket coat - it stays there so if I'm wearing a waterproof or just a hoody or something I'm not wearing it. Either way I'm not making a point to others, neither have I, even vaguely, felt any disapproval either way.
https://twitter.com/PoppyLegion/status/1457983549454307331
I know it's twitter and they are probably paid Russians but still... (the comments)
It’s a annual event (the froth over poppies)
I think there is a thread on here most years. And I expect there will probably be one next year, going over the same issues and making the same claims.
I lost my poppy this morning at the vaccination centre walking around with my jacket in my hand after receiving my booster.
I'm going to have to another now which will make me double patriotic this year. Or even more racist/fascist/war glorifier, whatever it is.
"I’ve felt it growing before that. Like I said in an earlier post it definitely took a sharp rise when it was hijacked to garner support for Iraq/Afghanistan."
Notice in that RBL tweet is says "armed forces community, past and present"
I remember the Falklands War where the soldiers who died we're buried by their comrades where they fell, just like British soldiers had for centuries. During the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts soldiers were bought back to Wootton Basset to take place in a very public and media orientated ceremony.
Can anybody explain this to me?
It wasn't possible to fly back until they regained control of the islands and rebuilt the runway plus difficulty storing bodies?
Because the lessons learned about how in some parts of the world CWGC sites aren't respected.
Some locations would make visiting those sites impossible for families.
The logistics and equipment made it much easier in modern times.
Also secure airheads are key.
So makes sense to repatriate the fallen.
The media spectacle, well that's a separate issue entirely.
Also, and this is rather unpalatable but rather detailed forensic examinations are done to the bodies to removed shrapnel/rounds. These have to follow similar protocols as police investigations, those articles are evidence.
Also the deaths have to be subject to a coroners investigation to rule on the cause.
As an example a British born Iraqi was convicted of the murder of a US serviceman in Iraq after his thumbprint was found on parts of the IED that killed said soldier.
I have an enamel one
Mine is a wrist band. Bought a few years ago. I gift aid privately. I also have a lovely bone china mug I bought in the museum at Ypres when we visited. The band has my RoadId mounted. I like practical and understated.
Not sure how the Nationalism part of it works when it's slapped on an Audi......seems like there may be some irony hiding here
****ing hell.
Also, it’s why I have an enamel one. Less faff every year,
Good shout, I'll organise myself one. Partner is Canadian, and their poppies are a nice silk materiel. Makes our paper cut out ones look a bit bargain basement TBH, and it's lasted well for a few years now
https://twitter.com/Barcajim3/status/1458340675649474563?s=20
Incidentally, does anybody from here ride in that group?
JFC!
I note that camper van is registered in le Manche. The Lancaster bomber images I find quite offensive given the way France was pounded in 1945 with little or no thought to civilians. And in some cases very questionable military justification.
I may have mentioned working on a campsite in Royan in 1987. The owner told how the resitants in the Poche de Royan communicated the German movements to the Brits and informed them where the Germans were hidden in the dunes and woods. The RAF apparently took no notice of this intelligence and bombed the town flat (Lancasters) killing hundreds of civilians rather than Germans. While the railway marshalling yards and strategic sites were fair game I've yet to find any reasonable justification for the bombing of a seaside resort cut off from the rest of the German forces. It was later bombed using Napalm which had already been used in St Malo. The old man was amused by my daily running and teased me about how his running speed had saved his life one glacial Junauary night.
I was in Royan last week, Madame took these pics:
and the 50s reconstruction:
So poppies, wear one if you wish, but there's no need for Lancaster bombers on a French registered vehicle. Remembrance yes, glorification no thanks.
“Also we need to recognise that people died on the other side and that their dead need to be thought of whatever we think of individual actions.”
^^ This.
“I’ve always viewed the Poppy as a symbol of the futility of War, sadly far too many people have hijacked it as a symbol of how ‘We’ won 2 World Wars and how it represents some sort of patriotism and honour. “
^^ And this.
“No I am sure you are not the only one. I suspect that it is widespread among those still desperately mourning leaving the EU.”
^^ Not this.
“I say it every year, when the politicians stop laying wreaths one minute and starting wars the next, or start properly caring for veterans I’ll start wearing one. I give some money every year but don’t need a poppy to show for it thanks.”
^^ But this too.
Also when David Cameron promoted the celebration of 2014 as the centenary - rather than the rather more appropriate 2018 if we are really talking about remembrance…
Incidentally, does anybody from here ride in that group?
I've cycled with a member of that club regularly in the past, she was a member of our club as well. Lovely lady. Bit of a shock to anyone who engaged her in conversation mid ride - "so what do you do for a living?" 🤣🤣
Also we need to recognise that people died on the other side and that their dead need to be thought of whatever we think of individual actions.
100% agree - this is why I wear the poppy.
Edit - in case of picture fail, it's graves of German and British soldiers, all unknown, side by side in Northern France.
You guys have got me thinking again. Dangerous.
I will not be wearing a poppy. I don’t like what it represents - or more correctly fails to represent.
But remembrance is good. And a little education about what and why we are remembering. So I choose to remember in different ways.
Taking my then 13 and 8 year old sons to a little local French war museum east of Reims and driving on the back roads round there past cemetery after cemetery was an experience the older one at least will not forget.
But there was hope there too. The museum included pictures of what the village had been reduced to, and information on where the help to rebuild had come from, and the finally the rebuilt village. It didn’t big back the dead, but rebuilding did help prevent the living joining them through the lack of livelihoods and shelter.
On today lets just remember the dead and wounded- civilians and military. Winners and losers, "our side" and enemies. All are dead, all are tragedies and all should be remembered
Lest we forget
.
Do you mean Remembrance Sunday or Armistice day? Never heard either called ‘Poppy day’. Wearing a Poppy is, or should be sweet FA to do with nationalism, patriotism or politics. It’s a simple act of remembrance and a means of fund raising for RBL.
Some people may wish to attach some kind of political significance to it, but they can **** right off. As a veteran it has a very significant meaning to me and most of my ex serving mates and for reasons which are much more contemporary than WW1. I’m not some right wing knuckle dragger or ‘flag shagger’ as some bell end tried to imply poppy wearers were on here a few days ago. My politics, not that it matters as regards the poppy are centre left but people of every political persuasion wear poppies. To remember.
I believe in free choice to remember or not and give zero s**ts if other people choose not to wear a poppy. I do so for my own reasons, not because it’s expected or because I care what others think, positively or negatively about it.
+1
tjagain
What? Our current government is tipping into fascism
😆 You should read up on fascism.
See you all again next November?
See you all again next November?
I reckon it will kick off again on Sunday....
You should read up on fascism.
Oh I have done and they are very much doing so 🙂 the parallels are astonishing
Give us a few? I'm mostly looking for things about their ambitions of turning the country into a 1 party totalitarian state. Kinda by definition you can't be fascist if you are willing to work within democratic systems. So some evidence of that would be nice.
Makes you wonder why we bothered having a world war over fascism.
Tbh it doesn't seem as bad as some people claim.
Probably needs to be a different thread TBH
No it really doesn't need a thread devoted to nonsense about fascism! lol
Anyone fancy telling my Chinese friend the UK is heading to a fascist distopia .
I mean his Facebook page is blocked so you might have to call him and have the state listening in 🎧. he is in Hong Kong so needs a good laugh.
Different argument to the poppy debate I cleaned a war grave yesterday by me. I know there is no one under it but at least I read his name and age 19
I know tj likes to go a bit Rik Mayal from time to time but we would be foolish to dismiss the idea that fascism is on the rise.
Read up on Umberto Eco's 14 characteristics of fascism essay written in 1995. Trump complied with every single one, Its worth a read to see how meany of those points relate to our current mob.
Excusing someone by saying they can't be fascist because they aren't as bad as Hitler is basically saying don't call someone a fascist unless they are a mass murderer. Better to keep an eye on these things before they get out of hand.
Accusing someone of being a fascist is a heavy charge that will often be met with a riposte followed by a futile argument. Look at actions not persons, how many of those 14 points are applicaple to what we see with our own eyes?
At the end of the day, like racism, fascism is as fascism does.
And that's all I've got to say about that.
saying they can’t be fascist because they aren’t as bad as Hitler
Could be wrong but I can't see were anyone has said that. And why choose Hitler as a comparison? Closer to home we have Oswald Moseley, making a comparison him would make more sense.
The point of Trump is that he is no longer in power in a fascist country he still would be. I'm not saying it's not on the rise look closely at the old eastern block.
Sometimes it just dilutes the word to band it about.
I'm not defending trump at all he is a hatful spite filled man.
Again different thread
Point taken Ernie,
You give me Oswald Moseley and I'll give you Jacob Rees Mogg.
Leader of the House of Commons if I'm not mistaken?
Nothing to see here......
The point of Trump is that he is no longer in power in a fascist country he still would be.
It was a pretty close run thing, he did his best to overturn the election result and came pretty close. Thankfully there were enough democratic Republicans to stop him.
The Nazi party subverted the democratic system to get into power in 1933. Once there they stayed. Do you count Russia as fascist or democratic? Holding manipulated sham elections doesn't make a fascist country democratic. Even Raab recognised the Russians meddled in the 2019 election which is quite something for a man unaware of the importance of trade through Dover.
Sometimes it just dilutes the word to band it about.
That's a real risk. The BBC series a couple of years ago on the Rise of the Nazis felt uncomfortably close to the rise of Nationalism around the world. We're not there yet, suggesting we are risks that we'll be so busy arguing about it that we won't see any changes that push us that way.
The word gets banded about a lot, I tend to wonder why people can't just see what's in front of them, it's not fascism, it's just the cold hard and ugly side of capitalism and democracy. Capitalism and democracy doesn't infer good, and can and does have its ugly side also.
Massive trailer on the main shopping drag in Glasgow today selling Remembrance merchandise.
Like the coca cola truck to remember our fallen.
Cringe.
Russia is a tricky one it's lost its way on the world stage. It's also huge like the USA and given the vast difference of opinion and opportunities to its people it's always messy
San Fransisco and Alabama could be in different countries policy wise in USA.
As for Russia it's corruption first then policy Putin is only a page of history away from being a dictator.
Alternatively, MoreCashThanDash, making the same mistakes in allowing propaganda merchants to spread lies with impunity means people get duped into supporting what eventually becomes a power grab with no way to return to democracy.
Make a list of the lies Boris has made to get where he is now. You'll need several pages. Now consider the consequences of those lies and the policies they have led to and the impact on British people. Consider how many people are happy to blindly follow the man wherever he takes them. All that tells me Britain is a flawed democracy like many others. dangerously flawed.
We need Rememberance day to learn about the errors of the past that led to the horrors of war. That part of Rememberance is being replaced by the jingoistic glorification of war in a highly nationalistic manner. Why would a government so reliant on lies and propaganda want to denounce those very things as being the root cause of the conflicts being remembered? It wouldn't and won't.
Alternatively, MoreCashThanDash, making the same mistakes in allowing propaganda merchants to spread lies with impunity means people get duped into supporting what eventually becomes a power grab with no way to return to democracy.
I think we're possible trying to say the same thing just in different ways - yes, I can see parallels between the Tory/Trump et al playbook and the start of the rise of the Nazis, but what we have now isn't fascism, we need to be careful people don't dismiss it now and allow it to become fascism down the line, or at least, a loss of democracy or a dictatorship.
Yeah, I've kinda seen a lot of Eco's list up close and personal.
Cutting down the hung, charred bodies of those who dare opposed their masters will always be a highlight that keeps me awake at night, but it's one of a whole host of other unspeakable acts that many like me saw the aftermath of.
The world is a beautiful place, inhabited by some truly amazing people, who do amazing things. But it also has a darkness that resides in many, a darkness that doesn't limit itself to one ideology.
But many who fantasize about war infantilize the misery it produces, but those who oppose it are often guilty of same trying to assign the darkness an ideology that suits their own politics and narrow view of the world.
OK guys - I did try to leave a nice post on this thread. sorry for my part in the diversion
Sometimes it just dilutes the word to band it about.
Indeed and very true which is why I sad " tipping to facism" is heading that way with those tendencies
But your point there is valid
On today lets just remember the dead and wounded- civilians and military. Winners and losers, “our side” and enemies. All are dead, all are tragedies and all should be remembered
Lest we forget
I was listening to 6 music at 11am today, when Lauren Laverne asked us to remember "all those who gave their lives for peace and freedom" - at which point I have to admit that I shouted "Oh, **** off" at the radio. Most of the dead did not 'give' their lives, their lives were taken. And for what? To satisfy the greed, stupidity and pride of their rulers. So remember and grieve for the dead by all means, but never forget why they died and who sent them to their deaths - and be angry enough about that to make sure it doesn't happen any more.
My neighbour is properly racist. Pretty open about shouting to people on street his views. All his cars have these big plastic poppies, on all year round. I always had this theory thats its a very secret way of signaling ur with the far right?? I tried googling it once, no luck? Maybe its on the dark web!!
The point of Trump is that he is no longer in power in a fascist country he still would be. I’m not saying it’s not on the rise look closely at the old eastern block.
Trump in power was merely the Munich Putsch stage of fascism. Wait until something with the same beliefs and less excess baggage comes along.
My neighbour is properly racist. Pretty open about shouting to people on street his views. All his cars have these big plastic poppies, on all year round.
Unfortunately it has become part of the English superiority over all others attitude that some have, the EU exit also contributes to that.
Most of the dead did not ‘give’ their lives, their lives were taken. And for what? To satisfy the greed, stupidity and pride of their rulers. So remember and grieve for the dead by all means, but never forget why they died and who sent them to their deaths – and be angry enough about that to make sure it doesn’t happen any more.
Very true.
Just come back from marshalling the village parade.
Mixed views on it this year, RBL didn't want a parade in the village due to Covid, so the parish council picked it up and the Scouts/Guides got dragged in as we always parade from the school to our (apparently) distinctive memorial. So I volunteered to marshall as I love a bit of hiviz power me.
Surprisingly no issues with the drivers who ignored the road closed and diversion signs, they all saw me, stopped and turned round without a word, which is rare.
There's something about hearing the Scouts and Guides reading out the names from the memorial. We cover what were at the time two small villages but one had a working pit, and the number from there who joined up and never returned is eye opening. Lovely, practically non-religious service about peace and sacrifice, all the better for having a German born vicar.
Two things stood out for me - a little girl carried away crying by her dad because it "felt so sad", and a guy who was on his way to the village shop just as I'd closed the road, but who had parked up and watched the parade and service before doing his shopping. As he walked back to his car I apologised his trip had been a lot longer than he'd planned and he said "It was worth it though".
So no nationalism, no glory, just quiet reflection across the generations.
Let's keep challenging the idiots and keep it how it should be.
Those last two lines.
Nailed it.
being replaced by the jingoistic glorification of war in a highly nationalistic manner.
Not really, except maybe in your head. We live in a country where the armed forces can't recruit fully. Hardly a sign of successful glorification.
Fetishisation rather than glorification, I think.
That's how people get excited by war and 'venerating' veterans without actually respecting them.
Fetishisation sounds about right, had a few questions this morning that boil my piss every time they're asked.
Usually the same people who also spin dits about why they never joined.
I hate having to be polite.
Cringesome in parts, but one of many YT videos that maybe help define where we sit in relationship to Fascism today.
The thing is "Fascism" doesn't tend to go by that name anymore, and it definitely doesn't just happen overnight, it requires a few social/economic conditions and some people willing and able to take advantage of those...
I think we've drifted closer in West over the last few years, but an important distinction for me is still that those in the driving seat have generally been disaster capitalists of one flavour or another, keen to use a bit of RW nationalism and the "strong leader" imagery to gain power and control, ultimately though they like functioning free markets, under a democratic* system.
(*Which they can corrupt of course)
As for rememberence, that precisely what it is for me, recognition of the sacrifices made by others (some quite recently) so that we can live in relative peace, having these sort of debates without fear of persecution or suffering. That's what I buy a poppy for and why I observe a bit of silence. Those that would co-opt it for a bit of "national pride" have missed the point, but at least they have the freedom and the right to do so...
We live in a country where the armed forces can’t recruit fully. Hardly a sign of successful glorification.
I'd say your average tubthumping, "stick it up the argies/jerrys/frogs" red white and blue nationalist glorifiers are normally pretty happy to subcontract the messy bit of the 'projecting' British might to others. Or is it just that those with first hand experience of conflict have a more rational and realistic understanding that is it not glorious and no one really wins.
I was riding alone at 1100 today, thinking sobre thoughts about the past and wishing for as much conflict free time as possible ahead.
Surprisingly no issues with the drivers who ignored the road closed and diversion signs, they all saw me, stopped and turned round without a word, which is rare.
I met a friend at a cafe today and there was a parade going on in the village centre. I joined the edge just for the silence part. The marshal, maybe 50m up the road had no trouble at all - people drove up, got directed off a side road or had to wait until the service was over. No issues.
Compare and contrast for when I've been marshalling cycle races and drivers get massively arsey at even the slightest hint of a delay - unnecessary use of the roads, no road tax, blah blah.
None of that at all when the roads are blocked for a Remembrance Parade. Weird huh?!
None of that at all when the roads are blocked for a Remembrance Parade. Weird huh?!
Well, our road closure for the parade is an official, legal, notices up weeks in advance and barriers preventing entry type of closure, which tends not to happen on many cycle events I've marshalled, sadly.
This probably belongs here?
Sorry if been posted but this summed up my thoughts
(and I say that as someone who took poo art in my local scout group remembrance parade yesterday)
the person that wrote that article Kimbers is a 1st class cockwomble - im quite sure the many serving and ex service that have experienced conflict would disagree with the notion that the "UK" has not experienced "war".
Who TF actually wrote that - uttter utter w@ker..
