[Closed] When does Poppy Day tip into overpowering Nationalism?

When the poppy is more important than the person.

I’ve noticed it too - having previously done some work to support armed forces charities, RBL wouldn’t be the first priority for cash plus they have a pretty hefty wage and HQ premises bill to support. Noticeable too how much lower profile it is north of the border.

When people overthink it.

It's intended as a tribute to those who gave their lives in war, and to raise funds for the RBL who support former service personnel and their families.

That is all.

Anyone who thinks it's something more really doesn't understand anything about it.

To answer the question directly, about 8 years ago, maybe 5.

the amount of commemoration of the First World War in particular to be overly mawkish given it ended over 100 years ago and no one who suffered in it is no longer alive.

I know where you are coming from on this and for a number of years have donated to the RBL but tend not to wear a poppy but a slight difference for me is that there are still people alive who were affected by the first world war if only indirectly- not many, but my father is an example. His father was wounded in 1917 and died in 1965 (I can still just about remember him in a very hazy way-I was not quite 4 when he died) He and his family including my father suffered the consequences of his trauma throughout his life. My dad was 90 this year and we were only talking about this a couple of weeks ago. My father served in the Korean War and he hated every minute of his National Service and has an ambivalent attitude to the Army and any authority in general and is as far away from your stereotypical veteran as you can imagine, but he does buy and wear a poppy each year for his father, mother and Uncles’ sake, one of whom died in 1918.

U woke lefties ar scum, its Corbyns fault! If your not dressed like this then you desrispect are war dead

[img] [/img]

I’m sure many of you will think I’m crazy, but I can’t be the only one surely?

No I am sure you are not the only one. I suspect that it is widespread among those still desperately mourning leaving the EU.

I am more than comfortable having sombre anual reminders of the senseless loss of life caused by world wars.

Likewise the full horrors of the Holocaust, however many years ago it happened.

Lest we forget.

Edit : Just to add.......to buy a poppy and you put it on your coat lapel, and that's it. You don't put on your shirt every time a camera is pointed at you to show the world what a great patriotic guy you are. Like Starmer did yesterday when he was giving an interview in shirt sleeves from his home.

That I find nauseating.

I’m sure many of you will think I’m crazy, but I can’t be the only one surely?

Nope, never liked the nationalism of poppy season and just ignore it every year.

Here's my view on the matter, which is obviously worth sweet FA.

I wear a poppy (and drop a pound or two into the noisy cup) because the RBL support all of those service personnel who, if push had come to shove, would've been willing to put their life on the line for my freedom. And I'm proud to wear a poppy to show the world that I'm thankful, and that I don't take their selflessness for granted.

If people confuse a slightly-built, half Malay, spectacle wearing man in a pair of Bertie boots for a far-right nationalist, the problem's with them, not me.

No I am sure you are not the only one. I suspect that it is widespread among those still desperately mourning leaving the EU.

I think it was way before any thought of Brexit that this was a thing, on my radar at least 30 years.

I am more than comfortable having sombre anual reminders of the senseless loss of life caused by world wars.

Likewise the full horrors of the Holocaust, however many years ago it happened.

Lest we forget.

As am I - but I don't need a bloody poppy to do that. I've not bought one since I left school. Originally because buying a poppy seems to be a token gesture that we can all make once a year to absolve ourselves of responsibility for the long term costs of sending men and women to war rather than any association with patriotism (politicians who make that decision should be making the life long commitment to support those who come back in need of support). However, I have noticed an increasing link between the poppy and the uglier side of the UK - probably originating from some "Britain First" propaganda that seemed to appropriate the emblem.

No I am sure you not the only one. I suspect that it is widespread among those still desperately mourning leaving the EU.

Yes it does seem ironic that those keenest on using the poppy as a symbol of patriotic remembrance are often the ones most opposed to the notion of European cooperation that helped make sure we've had a long period of peace in most of Europe.

What MoreCashThanDash said.
& what Ernie said as well.

November

Do you mean Remembrance Sunday or Armistice day? Never heard either called 'Poppy day'. Wearing a Poppy is, or should be sweet FA to do with nationalism, patriotism or politics. It's a simple act of remembrance and a means of fund raising for RBL.

Some people may wish to attach some kind of political significance to it, but they can **** right off. As a veteran it has a very significant meaning to me and most of my ex serving mates and for reasons which are much more contemporary than WW1. I'm not some right wing knuckle dragger or 'flag shagger' as some bell end tried to imply poppy wearers were on here a few days ago. My politics, not that it matters as regards the poppy are centre left but people of every political persuasion wear poppies. To remember.

I believe in free choice to remember or not and give zero s**ts if other people choose not to wear a poppy. I do so for my own reasons, not because it's expected or because I care what others think, positively or negatively about it.

who dares not to wear a Poppy in a public role nowadays?

Me

I forget to put it on all the time

Surprisingly no-one chastises me either way

Back in the day people were really angry with the association with the Haig Fund.

These days it's just noise from angry people of either persuasion looking to virtue signal their approval/ disapproval of those who wear one.

Most don't bother either way and just get on with life.

Personally we should be expanding the whole thing to take into account the commonwealth etc it should be something that is a unifying thread in our shared history. Also we need to recognise that people died on the other side and that their dead need to be thought of whatever we think of individual actions.

I think it's the First World War thing that rankles me.

If the houses in the villages round here had murals painted on them of modern soldiers injured and killed by IEDs in the desert instead of silhouettes of 140 year olds fighting in neighbouring countries then I wouldn't worry so much that we've got our priorities confused.

More young men in the prime of their lives died in one day during WW1 than in the last ten years from IEDs.

How do you feel about remembering the Holocaust....... time to forget?

It's all a bit anti-german isn't it?

Makes me remember my nan. She (and a lot of the family, including myself helped a bit) used to make up the poppies and also stand for hours selling them in support of the British Legion. It meant a lot to her so out of respect for her memory, it also has my respect.

From the Blackpool South MP, he really wants to be an American republican.

https://twitter.com/scottbentonmp/status/1456389503128674310?s=21

Those Lefties won the war, then kicked out The Tories and built the NHS.

I don't think it's "overpowering nationalism" to commemorate those who've given their lives in service. But like many things that perhaps shouldn't be; it's become part of the wider culture war.

I've always viewed the Poppy as a symbol of the futility of War, sadly far too many people have hijacked it as a symbol of how 'We' won 2 World Wars and how it represents some sort of patriotism and honour. I used to wear one every year but not any longer, though I do donate every year still. I know too many people who have either served themselves or are part of a military family to not support them for doing something I could not.

My tipping point came about 2014, not long after the Tower of London sculpture. Too many people used it as an excuse to flag-shag the Union Jack, totally missing the point of the installation.

What’s “Poppy Day”?

No such thing surely

What’s “Poppy Day”?

My tipping point came about 2014, not long after the Tower of London sculpture. Too many people used it as an excuse to flag-shag the Union Jack, totally missing the point of the installation.

Strange. Not disputing that your experience was different to mine but for me it was by far and away the most moving poppy appeal of my lifetime.

To stand there in silence and focus how every single poppy represented one tragic death was deeply moving and sombre.

The crowds were unimaginably huge and there was no joviality or causal behaviour IME, just mostly sombre silence.

The primary reason for wearing a poppy imo is to encourage others to donate to a worthwhile cause.

Those Lefties won the war, then kicked out The Tories and built the NHS.

The @RachelW... Tweet is as unedifying as the MP's response. He should have just ignored it.

If the houses in the villages round here had murals painted on them of modern soldiers injured and killed by IEDs in the desert instead of silhouettes of 140 year olds fighting in neighbouring countries then I wouldn’t worry so much that we’ve got our priorities confused.

What you are missing is that it's the echo of a collective memory of massive loss. Also the shadow that those who returned carried with them. WW1 had a horrific toll throughout society, large chunks of NT property was gifted because there was no-one left to inherit.

What you are demonstrating is that memory is fading which in turn why the murals are done. It's also because it's long enough ago to not be as political as the recent conflicts in Kuwait, Iraq, Afghan, Syria, the Sahel etc.

It’s all a bit anti-german isn’t it?

Or Austrian, Or Japanese, or North Korean, or Chinese, or Argentine, or jihadi, or Iraqi etc. Do we count the cold war? Colonial insurgencies?

Best to just remember the loss, and that both sides have loss

I have no issue with the poppy. I do like them much more now you can get a pin badge though, rather than the paper ones that used to get torn to bits.
I wear it simply as a remembrance of those who fought and died, and like many others as a remembrance of family members who have served (not many in my family but a great uncle was in the first tanks at the somme)

even a subtle dig at minorities 

Really? When you think how many empire troops fought in both world wars, its just as much to remember them.
.
When Britain stood alone (apart from the Ausssies, kiwis, south Africans, Canadians, Indians, Caribbeans, Kenyans, etc, etc who answered the call)

Remembering the Holocaust is a bit anti Japanese, or North Korean, or Chinese, or Argentine, or jihadi, or Iraqi?

The question I asked was should we forget the Holocaust because it happened a long time ago and it might be seen as anti-german?

Although imo guilt for the Holocaust goes far beyond the borders of Germany, or one people, or one political party.

who dares not to wear a Poppy in a public role nowadays?

Me. I wear one of their silicone wristbands I bought a few years ago. I have something else I could wear to the ceremony. But won’t of course. Remembrance is personal.

When I got a ceramic poppy for my birthday.

I say it every year, when the politicians stop laying wreaths one minute and starting wars the next, or start properly caring for veterans I'll start wearing one. I give some money every year but don't need a poppy to show for it thanks.

The question I asked was should we forget the Holocaust because it happened a long time ago and it might be seen as anti-german?

Misunderstood your post

The answer is obviously no we shouldn't forget.

It does seem to have been ramped up over the last few years and become a "you must wear the poppy" for anyone in the public eye which I find a bit unpleasant and is just virtue signalling.
It has been turned into a look how patriotic and caring we are often by politicians who cant actually be arsed to fund the welfare of the current soldiers let alone pay adequately for those who got injured serving their country.

https://twitter.com/jdpoc/status/1443877367143825408?t=t-1_67FfqoXcKhmIyiuXPQ&s=19

Everyone on Bake off extra slice is wearing poppies on their shirts. I imagine everyone on HIGNFY will be too.

It's just not worth the hassle not to for people on the telly to not wear one ... And if everyone else on the panel is then it looks like you are making a point if you are not.

Could you imagine what would happen if Starmer didn't wear one when being interviewed?

BTW I buy a poppy and have it on my jacket

When I got a ceramic poppy for my birthday.

It’s just not worth the hassle not to for people on the telly to not wear one

Although it can be a hassle in some cases since they need to predict when a show is going to be aired and make sure they are wearing them if it falls into the virtue signallers window of outrage.

I'll donate but feel no need to wear a poppy. I'll raise a glass in memory of my three great uncles who died in the Somme and Grandad who survived Gallipoli.

but I can’t be the only one surely?

You mean you haven't decorated your house?

https://twitter.com/giantpoppywatch/status/1057617360083918849?s=20

Could you imagine what would happen if Starmer didn’t wear one when being interviewed?

No what would happen?

He would have to say that it was on his overcoat lapel if someone asked?

But he would be criticised in the right wing media, on Twitter etc and would have to explain why as you say

Or he could wear one on his shirt like everyone else on telly and it annoys one random bloke who complains on an obscure forum

Strange. Not disputing that your experience was different to mine but for me it was by far and away the most moving poppy appeal of my lifetime.

To stand there in silence and focus how every single poppy represented one tragic death was deeply moving and sombre.

The crowds were unimaginably huge and there was no joviality or causal behaviour IME, just mostly sombre silence.

The actual sculpture and the events around it were indeed very moving and respectful, it was what happened after it was removed that tainted it for me. It might just be a few local issues but there were a few people around my area who were very quick to jump on the '2 World Wars and 1 World Cup!' thing when the individual Poppy pieces were sent around the country to be used in local Memorial gardens etc. That's why I said it was after the sculpture not because of it. I know the local Poppy Appeal tried to distance themselves from the idiots at the time as it was hurting their efforts, as usual a small minority ruining it for the masses. Like I said, I still make a donation but I feel the Poppy as a symbol has been linked to other causes in the same way the Union Jack has been linked to being a supporter of the likes of Stephen Yaxley-Lennon or Farage. I'm even doing an organised charity ride for the Poppy Appeal this year and will observe the silence too. I just won't wear a Poppy.

No what would happen?

The daily hate and co would probably have thousands of pages attacking him just as they did when Corbyn apparently didnt quite bow low enough although oddly enough they forgot when Johnson turned up looking a complete state showing that it isnt even just virtue signalling for them but cynical exploitation of those who read too many commando comics as a kid.
I say probably because he is so ineffective they might not be arsed.

I wish they weren't plastic, even if you can recycle them (Sainsbury’s do a scheme, which is only useful have/shop at a Sainsbury’s nearby)

Amazing how everything gets turned into a rage against the right on here.

This place could certainly teach a few fascists how to do the hate thing correctly that’s for sure.

What’s wrong with remembering war dead and injured ?
That gave it all, so let’s not try and take it away from them.

What’s wrong with remembering war dead and injured ?

Nothing if it is a personal choice and decision. However if you are wrapping yourself in poppies then its just virtue signalling. Especially if you follow it up with attacks on people since they havent copied your virtue signalling.
Especially when you have politicians wearing their poppies and shouting their support for various charities whilst failing to push policies which would actually help those injured directly.

That PoppyWatch tweet boils my urine - fair enough people putting on a show for Remembrance but "PropertyPatriot" shows how one thing has been twisted to suggest the other.

https://twitter.com/giantpoppywatch/status/1193836378934710272?s=20

I dare say that most people buy and wear poppies to remember the sacrifices made by people when the time.
In terms of the first world war for me its remembering my great grandad,
who was killed, by a german mine a little more than a mile from his front door.

Let's not turn this into the usual political argy bargy on here, but remember the sacrifices made by so many.

The daily hate and co would probably have thousands of pages attacking him

So the Daily Mail decides what, if anything, Starmer wears on his shirt?

If the man can't decide for himself what to wear and relies on the Daily Mail to dictate his dress code then what hope is there in him being an effective Prime Minister?

Not that we'll ever find out.

Still, we already have a Prime Minister who tends to do whatever the Daily Mail dictates so I guess that's one thing less to worry about. Crack on Johnson.

If the Daily Mail has a front page headline screaming "Starmer in shirtsleeves at home without a poppy - how much does he hate his country?" All he has to do is provide evidence that his poppy was in his coat lapel. Sorted.

At the in-laws last weekend I noticed a giant poppy on every single lamppost in Biggin Hill. Every one. We have a few in our village. This is a recent thing. At work we have an internal memorial, but best of all, they match donations to RBL.

'Nationalism' my arse.
Here's one good reason I wear a poppy.

R.I.P. granddad.

https://flic.kr/p/BMqXVP

I bought two pairs of Ben Deakin’s OiOi socks have I done the wrong thing?

If the Daily Mail has a front page headline screaming “Starmer in shirtsleeves at home without a poppy – how much does he hate his country?” All he has to do is provide evidence that his poppy was in his coat lapel. Sorted.

🤣 Pull the other one!

I've mates in the forces, and know people that have had injuries and long term health problems from service.

You need to step away from the thought it's old men who fought 40yrs ago.

It's a depressing thought that our governmentS don't provide more.

What about RAFA that just for rich flyboys?

I think anyone who signs up. Forces or police or fire services etc should sit under this umbrella.

Legion does some hugely important work. Regardless of whether you think we should have been there or not. Someone has signed on the line to say they'll provide themselves for national service. And in need we should back them.

I am very surprised at the posts - going on disappointed. We need to separate politics from remembrance and this is equally important for all countries involved in war - the people on the front lines were often not political, they were just doing what was asked of them.

I say wear a poppy to remember all those that gave their lives, and the lives of their families. They all have given so much more than pretty well much any of us on here could ever do.

Pull the other one!

Well yes of course, I indulged in the fanciful idea that the Daily Mail would even bother to report that Keir Starmer wasn't wearing a poppy whilst in shirtsleeves in his own home, never mind "thousands of pages attacking him" as claimed, precisely to draw attention to how it would be a non-issue.

We all know why Keir Starmer had a poppy firmly pinned to his shirt whilst sitting in his own home, and it had bugger all to do with the Daily Mail.

The cameras were rolling and he wanted to send a clear message...... "look at what a great guy I am everyone, I'm wearing a poppy. Please make me your Prime Minister next general election".

Anyone who claims he did it simply to please the Daily Mail needs to come up with a better excuse.

‘Nationalism’ my arse.

Just take a look at that ‘Poppywatch’ twitter account and you’ll see it’s been twisted by a few well beyond somber remembrance into fetishisation of remembrance.

It’s funny how those few also tend to lean towards the fash end of things, such as this place with its subtle, solemn tribute:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bristol-landlord-claims-council-harassed-4670963

<edit> and it’s this sort of thing that makes me less comfortable wearing one that I might otherwise used to do. I used to go out selling poppies, would always wear one around Remembrance Day, but over the last few years the tendency for it or associated with year-long tributes on the back of vans, or on T-shirts, trainers, goodies, football strips etc tends not to be to my taste.

WW1 has still not ended 🙁 We are now on Season 1, Episode 3. That war will never end 🙁

I do think this is largely an argument which is had on the internet every year, rather than in the real world. Yes, there are some loons about, but that’s not the vast majority of people who wear a poppy (or indeed who don’t).

For my own part, I usually buy and wear a poppy, more to help current living veterans than as an act of remembrance, but I don’t always, and it’s more difficult now that I don’t commute at all. I often go to remembrance ceremonies as a mark of respect, but not always. Either way, nobody has ever, ever berated me in the real world for not doing either of those things, which frankly is the way it should be.

Just take a look at that ‘Poppywatch’ twitter account and you’ll see it’s been twisted by a few well beyond somber remembrance into fetishisation of remembrance.

Some people have better taste than others

Some people need to identify with something

Do it your way and be happy with that, don't let others take away from you your form of remembrance

November means spending my money on a poppy to remember my great uncle Robert Javes (died 16/09/1916)(Thiepval) for my grandmother (English), Andre Preveaux for my grandmother (died of injuries 1921)(french), Robert Prevaeux MC, again for my grandmother, P/O Len Gardiner DFC 44 sqd, B Cantelo 2nd Canadian Div (grandad), Uncle George (8th Army), Uncle Mac (Chindit), Uncle Will 1para 1944), Uncle Wilf 1para 1944….. it doesn’t seem a big sacrifice to drop a fiver in now and then…… I would love to have gone for a XC ride with any of them….. I bet they’d have all destroyed me… 😊

The act of remembrance is good.

The need for the poppy appeal to exist is not.

When we don't have to support armed forces personnel through charity then I'll wear a poppy with pride.

Until then I'll remember the unfathomable bloodshed in the name of politics, every poor bastard that was sent to die for "their country" and every person that came back with physical and mental scars they carried with them for the rest of their lives. And the shits that sent and continue to send them before abandoning them to charity.

Couldn't really give a hoot, but yon head bowed ww1 soldier silhouettes must be the most cringe inducing graphic ever made in history. 😆

I wouldn't really say it's over powering nationalism, rather it's more over powering tacky-ism. 😆

Wear a poppy as you wish.
Don't wear one if you don't wish to.
Either way do as you wish but don't impose.

“ Couldn’t really give a hoot, but yon head bowed ww1 soldier silhouettes must be the most cringe inducing graphic ever made in history”

My wife’s grandad, who died recently, watched his friends burn alive in a shelled tank he was in them with, he only survived as he fell out into a river which put his own burning clothes out. He crawled back on hands and knees to safety covered in blood and burns.

If someone wants to keep the memory of those sorts of fine people alive, and raise money for people who will endure those situations in the future I’m fine with however they do choose to do it.

Seriously, some of you need to take a long hard look at yourselves.

I'm surprised by the number of people on here either defending their right to wear a poppy and / or seeing a woke vendetta against those who do wear it.

I had to go back to the OP's post to remind myself that the question was what has the poppy come to symbolise rather than what it was originally intended to symbolise.

If wearing a poppy helps the wearer remember relatives lost or traumatised by WW1 then I can't see an issue. The thing is, not everyone did lose relatives in that war and some, for whatever reason chose not to wear one even if they did lose loved ones. So, to be 'forced' to wear one on public duty (especially on televisin) is surely disengenous and in part responsible for the politicisation of the poppy beyond a mere symbol of remeberence.

Sorry for derailing the thread by responding to the question posed in the original post.

I'm quite happy in my knowledge of the 2 world wars and a lot more wars beyond thank you very much. I don't need the cringe fest to learn about them.

If you do that's nice. Each to their own. Personally, if i want to learn about something, I'll go and read a book or watch a documentary. Pomp and ceremony isn't a particularly good form of remembrance, imo.

The moment you call it “Poppy Day”… A moniker added latterly for simpletons who can’t grasp the meaning of Rememberance Sunday (and what it’s about). 🤦🏻‍♂️

Seriously, some of you need to take a long hard look at yourselves.

I have, I do so with some regularity and I am entirely happy with what I see. Your post was not the cause of me doing it the last time I did. I also think the symbol has become a bit cringeworthy. And no, I am not going to say anything about my family's experiences of two world wars.

There's a Walter at work, usual type, trousers with loads of pockets, old land drover festooned with 'one life' shite. Wears twenty poppy pin badges on his work lanyard all year round.

I'd say then, that's the moment.

were they as shite as everyone said?! The whole thing was an absolute joke.

Are you new here?

Pomp and ceremony isn’t a particularly good form of remembrance, imo.

Most remembrance services are quite the opposite, usually a good test of thermals and waterproofs

You can watch other programs on the telly

Putting a couple of quid in a tin in a windy town centre is hardly a cringe fest

There’s a Walter at work, usual type, trousers with loads of pockets, old land drover festooned with ‘one life’ shite. Wears twenty poppy pin badges on his work lanyard all year round.

People identify with different groups and chose to show it their own way. If you were as critical about other groups you would be pilloried.

Until then I’ll remember the unfathomable bloodshed in the name of politics, every poor bastard that was sent to die for “their country” and every person that came back with physical and mental scars they carried with them for the rest of their lives. And the shits that sent and continue to send them before abandoning them to charity.

I agree the support for ex service people is very poor, I help mitigate this by putting some money in a charity tin and supporting those who want to improve the government support.

What are you doing to mitigate the issue?

So, to be ‘forced’ to wear one on public duty (especially on televisin) is surely disengenous and in part responsible for the politicisation of the poppy beyond a mere symbol of remeberence.

Sorry yes, to the OP it was on my radar years ago. It was more the garish blinged up poppies television presenters were wearing as a statement rather than a sombre reminder. See later 'Corbyn in a donkey jacket' headlines for further politicisation of the day.

Big 'n daft is right though, it comes down to taste and people have the right to express themselves as they please whether that's a red poppy, white poppy, no poppy or an amateur bit of installation art no matter how tacky it may seem. It's the act that's more important and as long as nobody is having something imposed upon them then I don't see any harm in it.

Of course I'm up in Scotland where its a lot less loaded.

What are you doing to mitigate the issue?

The same. Which as a single person feels futile but if people actually gave a shit could have some clout if everyone who claimed to care did. People bang on about veterans with PTSD, homeless veterans and such, fixate on the symptom rather than the problem and still vote for the same arseholes that created the problem in the first place.

That's why I don't have pride in a poppy, because 100 years later we still don't care enough about those who put their lives on the line to care for them afterwards.

If someone wants to keep the memory of those sorts of fine people alive, and raise money for people who will endure those situations in the future I’m fine with however they do choose to do it.

I don't think anybody is really arguing against the remembrance aspect of it. The topic is more about the distortion of the message which turns it into a nationalistic endeavour and forgets the actual tragedy of war. At which point it almost comes full circle and becomes the very thing that inspires war in the first place.

Where the propaganda does come in to the poppy is that it's really just a vehicle for remembering selected parts of British history. You know the Brits did do a lot of bad stuff too. Seems to be little remembrance of that.

Seems to be little remembrance of that.

Try reading the Guardian opinion section. There's little else. (-:

Pomp and ceremony isn’t a particularly good form of remembrance, imo.

Totally agree, but remembrance events I've been at over the years have been anything but. They have been solemn, quiet affairs with time to reflect on what previous generations went through.

MCTD has it. It is only a problem to those who want to poke their own political fire. Stuff em.