[Closed] What's your understanding of the National Speed Limit in the UK?

daveatextremistsdotcouk - Member

NSL is either 50, 60, or 70 depending on the type of road and what you're driving. Perfectly simple and nothing to do with street lights.

Now prove me wrong....

40mph for HGVs on single carriageways in Scotland. 😛

So [url= https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q594.htm ]Q594[/url] is wrong then?

And 80+ if you are “making progress” 😉

And 80+ if you are “making progress”

Only if you declare yourself a "tasty driver", if not you're a crazy maniac who's a danger to themselves and everyone else on the road.

So Q594 is wrong then?

The national speed limits for goods vehicles, such as non car based vans, and also for vehicles with more than 8 passenger seats are 10mph less than the limits mentioned above.

You think it's confusing in the UK. Here in Spain there are many sections of road where on a long hill there is a lane for slow vehicles with an overtaking lane. The vehicles using this overtaking lane must not drop below 70kph but the maximum speed limit os 80kph, so you have a 10kph window in which to drive. A road locally had a temporary limit of 60kph but kept the 70 minimum on a hill which is obviously impossible to achieve.

[s]When is it 50 in a car?[/s]

Ooops I misread your post.

#speeders 😆

One of the most useful things I learned on my naughty boys' speeding class was to check side roads if you missed a sign and you don't know whether it's a 30 or 40. If it's a little residential road, it will definitely be a 30. If there's a big sign telling you a 30 zone starts there, you're in a 40, possibly 50, and if there's no big sign at the junction telling you that you'd be entering a 30mph zone, you're in one already.

I think NSL confusion is partly down to the course presenters trying to make their courses more interesting:

Presenter: What's the National Speed Limit everyone?

everyone: 60/70mph

Presenter: ha, well it's [i]actually[/i] not that simple! There are [i]actually[/i] 27 "national" speed limits!

NSL is either 50, 60, or 70 depending on the type of road and what you're driving. If you're not in a NSL area, you will have passed a sign that says 20,30,40,50 or 60. Perfectly simple and nothing to do with street lights.

Now prove me wrong....

The link below, screen shots of the contents of this link, and copied and pasted text from this link have cropped up many times already on this thread. It clearly shows that the NSL is 30mph in certain circumstances and is from Gov.uk, a source that we should be able to rely on.

[url= https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits ]https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits[/url]

I'm not sorry I started this thread. It proves the system is imperfect and mis-understood. The conclusion I'm drawing is that I'll take the bus instead 😆

Presenter: ha, well it's actually not that simple! There are actually 27 "national" speed limits!

The NSL sign is indicative for open roads not built up areas, you’re mixing up 2 different things.

Please yes use the bus.

daveatextremistsdotcouk - Member

So Q594 is wrong then?

Ask the Police has a separate site for Scottish law, which is different.

So Q594 is wrong then?

Only if you have a binary definition of right and wrong. I'd say that it's not 100% correct. (it's not 100% wrong either).

It clearly shows that the NSL is 30mph in certain circumstances and is from Gov.uk, a source that we should be able to rely on.

No it doesn't, at least now how I read it. I would read the reference to "national speed limits" (N.B. this limits is plural in the text) as meaning it's a list of speed limits that are applied nationally depending on circumstances. The "National Speed Limit" (Note capitalisation and limit singular) is something different.

Remember legal definitions of words are often different to those used colloquially.

You should also note that despite what the text says, not all motorways have a 70 mph limit, some are less than that no matter wat vehicle you are driving.

You should also note that despite what the text says, not all motorways have a 70 mph limit, some are less than that no matter wat vehicle you are driving.

And will have a sign indicating that.

It proves the system is imperfect and mis-understood

Not really, just do what the signs tell you to do. An NSL sign was 60mph on a single carriageway and 70mph on a dual carriageway and motorway unless otherwise stated (for a car obviously) when I passed my drivers test. Nothing I heard in my speed awareness course changed my view of that, and nothing I've read in this thread has caused me to re-visit my understanding. So seems pretty simple really.

Again, I repeat my question, if the system was that you had to decide what the speed limit was based upon what street furniture is around you then what is the point of any speed limit sign....just assume its all national speed limit and decide what the national speed limit is based on the street furniture around you. I really don't think this is the case.

stilltortoise - the Highway [b]Code[/b] is not the law. It's a summary meant for the layman. I guess that's why there are imperfections in the wording.

And why do (some) roundabouts have 60mph/NSL signs just before them?

it would be chaos if people had different speed limits due to the road they entered from. The RB needs one speed limit. Locally that's set by your tyres not the law 😯

Nah, you’re right to start a speeding thread.

Every one loves a speeding thread 😆

I would read the reference to "national speed limits" (N.B. this limits is plural in the text) as meaning it's a list of speed limits that are applied nationally depending on circumstances. The "National Speed Limit" (Note capitalisation and limit singular) is something different.

Someone else suggested that above (possibly you). I asked them to explain what the difference is between "national speed limits" and the "National Speed Limit". Can you explain? If there genuinely is a difference, surely you acknowledge how ridiculous it is to have a distinction like that.

"Sorry, m'lud, I was paying attention to the [b]N[/b]ational [b]S[/b]peed [b]L[/b]imit, not the applicable speed defined by the national speed limit[b]s[/b]"

if the system was that you had to decide what the speed limit was based upon what street furniture is around you then what is the point of any speed limit sign

The signs are there to over-ride the visual indicators such as street lighting or the type of road. There are plenty of dual carriageways that have 50mph limits for example (that's how I got caught). The crux of my thread is that the repeater signs on this particular stretch of road are the NSL sign. For my entire driving life I have taken that to mean - as a car driver - a 60mph limit on a single carriageway. My speed awareness course suggested otherwise.

[i]It's a summary meant for the layman.[/i]

As opposed to the driving gods?

For my entire driving life I have taken that to mean - as a car driver - a 60mph limit on a single carriageway.

Correct.

Unless you can find an example of a 30 limit being signed by an NSL sign (you won't) then this thread is pointless. Everyone else gets it.

If there genuinely is a difference, surely you acknowledge how ridiculous it is to have a distinction like that.

It only seems ridiculous fto the terminally hard of thinking. If you can't figure it out you should probably just surrender your driving license.

In good old STW fashion I am going to go off at a tangent a bit.
I wonder what the rule is where you enter a 30mph zone , all properly signposted by a road that doesn't have the sign. You there fore have no instructions to slow from NSL to 30. Conversely if you enter through the speed limit signs but leave by a non signposted way you are restricted to 30 until another signpost appears.
Where you ask? I know of several villages that have an unsurfaced, maybe almost undriveable, UCRs that enter in the middle of them. They leave NSL 60 mph zones several miles away and then pop out in the middle of a 30 zone. Hmmm
These villages, in two definite cases have no streets lights that could indicate any limit and no signs within the village or they are some way from the UCR.

this thread is pointless

How very dare you 😆

Perhaps I should have said "For my entire driving life I have taken that to mean - as a car driver - a 60mph limit on a single carriageway, [u]until I attended a speed awareness course where they introduced doubt[/u]"

Those that get where I'm coming from (at least two of you!) recognise the ambiguity is in what constitutes a built-up area as a mechanism to define the national speed limit, which is indicated by the black diagonal sign. The crux is that it will make no practical difference and will never be tested in a court of law, since the worse case scenario is someone travelling 30mph when they are allowed to go at 60mph.

Thanks for the many comments. It's been interesting...

I kind of got your point OP. Were it not for the recent speeding mega thread I think this could have gone to 11 pages but I think everyone inclined to do so is slightly over dosed on speed for the now.

It might still have some legs if we get some real experts to chime in.

30 limits are indicated by 30 signs as I've already told you. It would be impossible to pass your test without knowing this.

If you can't figure it out you should probably just surrender your driving license.

OK, OK, I'll bite!

Seriously, please help this terminally hard-of-thinking person understand. My understanding is that there is no National Speed Limit (singular). Neither speed awareness courses, Gov.uk nor the Highway Code suggest otherwise. For those who are saying there is, what do you think it is and why?

It's easily understood if you're familiar with it, but I do agree with stilltortoise: if you imagine explaining it to someone completely new to the concepts, I think you'd have to admit to them the the naming is pretty silly*, or you'd be better off explaining it without using the words "national speed limit", just tell them what the signs actually mean you should do.

*

"national speed limits" (N.B. this limits is plural in the text) as meaning it's a list of speed limits that are applied nationally depending on circumstances. The "National Speed Limit" (Note capitalisation and limit singular) is something different, [b]and could be any one of several National Speed Limits (so you'll note that these are not really any more singular than any of the other speed limits applied nationally) depending on what type of road it is and what type of vehicle you're driving.[/b]

I wonder what the rule is where you enter a 30mph zone , all properly signposted by a road that doesn't have the sign.

[img] [/img]

My understanding is that there is no National Speed Limit (singular).

When you see the sign which is white with a black diagonal it means that the “national speed limit for the vehicle you are driving on this type of road in this part of the UK applies.”

It’s really not hard.

Are you actually having trouble working out what the speed limit is for any given road?
If you are, link to the location and someone will tell you.

If you're not, stop wasting bandwidth and find something more important to occupy your time.

When you see the sign which is white with a black diagonal it means that the “national speed limit for the vehicle you are driving on this type of road in this part of the UK applies.”
It’s really not hard.

This.

Plus any change in speed limit has to be shown with a gateway sign (one either side of the road), and then repeater signs have to be shown along the restricted section, before the next gateway which will be either another limit sign either side of the road, or a black diagonal on either side indicating a return to national speed limit for you vehicle on that type of road.

I think the OP should just post his license back to the DVLA and give up driving. It's the only safe option.

OK, I promise this is my last attempt to try and help one or two other see where I'm coming from.

When you see the sign which is white with a black diagonal it means that the “national speed limit for the vehicle you are driving on this type of road in this part of the UK applies.”

Yep, completely get all that. My understanding of that has not changed in the many years I've been driving. In determining what the "national speed limit for the vehicle you are driving on this type of road in this part of the UK applies", the presence of street lights indicates a built-up area, ergo a 30mph limit.

The black diagonal tells you "national speed limit"
The streetlights tell you "built up area" (hence national speed limit of 30mph)
The presence of streetlights is "over-ruled" by signage
The signage is a black diagonal indicating "national speed limit"
The streetlights tell you "built up area" (hence 30mph)
The presence of streetlights is "over-ruled" by signage
etc

I'll provide feedback to the Speed Awareness course that using street lights as a determinator of the national speed limit has caused doubt in what was previously very clear to me. Thanks for your thoughts.

Why don't you post a link to the road in question?

Why don't you post a link to the road in question?

[url= https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0841682,-2.1003685,3a,75y,52.37h,100.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQe7LhG8aQ5Eq0Pxr5-ZOPA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?dcr=0 ]et voilá[/url]

If the presence of street lights indicates a built-up area, and the national speed limit for a built up area is 30mph, why is the speed limit 60mph here?

Google it “Signs show speed limits in miles per hour (mph) or use the national speed limit (NSL) symbol. The national speed limit is 70 mph (112 km/h) on motorways, 70 mph (112 km/h) on dual carriageways, 60 mph (96 km/h) on single carriageways and generally 30 mph (48 km/h) in areas with street lighting (restricted roads).”

I would disagree with the final bit about 30, the national speed limit to me is always 70 on a dual carriageway and motorway or 60 everywhere else,

20,30,40,50 are other common speed limits but will never show as NSL white/Black signs
It just won’t happen

the presence of street lights indicates a built-up area, ergo a 30mph limit.

The big **** off signs indicate a 30 limit. Street lights are just a reminder.
Smaller signs act as a reminder in the absence of street lights.
In special areas such as the new forest, signs can be painted on the road.

You have been told this already.

The streetlights tell you "built up area" (hence national speed limit of 30mph)

The presence of streetlights is an indication only as they are generally installed in areas where there are pedestrians and thus where you should expect the speed limit to be relatively low. They do not define what the speed limit is the signs do that.

If you are still convinced that that the sign that shows the National Speed Limit can indicate a limit of 30 mph the please show a link. N.B. your gov.uk link categorically does NOT do this.

Alternatively you could actually contact the course organisers for clarification.

stilltortoise - Member

et voilá

That's a 40 limit going into an NSL, so 60mph for a car as it is a single carriageway road.
There are repeaters to remind you that it is an NSL road.

Further on you can see a side road that is a 30 limit:
[url= https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0868656,-2.0647228,3a,75y,173.32h,85.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sszuUcgtqg9xtG3FFkX5lEg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?dcr=0 ]30 limit[/url]

Notice the two big **** off signs with 30 on them?

[i]20,30,40,50 are other common speed limits[/i]

Can you list some more please.

If the presence of street lights indicates a built-up area, and the national speed limit for a built up area is 30mph, why is the speed limit 60mph here?

Here, he's right though - that A53 is confusing. So at the point he's linked it's a 60, but it goes past houses and pubs without any further signage. Then you pass "The Wheel" and there's a 40 sign. Before that there's a junction and a zebra crossing. I can't say for sure that it's a 60 all the way down there!

et voilá

That's quite clearly a road going from 40mph to NSL which for a car on a single carriageway road is 60mph. If you think this is anything else then you are incorrect.

@DezB give over , I am highlighting to the fact 30 is not a NSL

30 in a built up area in law is a ‘restricted road’
Maybe the op would like to read
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Built-up_area_(Highway_Code)

These built up urban area street lights must be within 200 yards( or 183 metres)
Apart

Here, he's right though - that A53 is confusing. So at the point he's linked it's a 60, but it goes past houses and pubs without any further signage. Then you pass "The Wheel" and there's a 40 sign. Before that there's a junction and a zebra crossing. I can't say for sure that it's a 60 all the way down there!

No, its 60 (if youre in a car) all the way down to the 40 gateway signs.

I am highlighting to the fact 30 is not a NSL

Further on you can see a side road that is a 30 limit:
30 limit

Thanks sbob, that's actually a really sensible observation to address any ambiguity over whether it's a 30mph limit on the main carriageway.

[i]No, its 60 (if youre in a car) all the way down to the 40 gateway signs.[/i]

No? What's 'no' for?
But passing houses and approaching a zebra crossing with a 60mph limit?

(The 30 signs sbob linked to are on the Denford Road, off the A53)

I had this on a SAC too. It's misleading at best.

Entering a built-up area, you'll pass a large 30mph sign which defines the limit. You will then have [i]either [/i]regular repeater signs [i]or [/i]there will be street lighting present. The street lighting acts as a reminder and negates the need for extra signage, it does not in and of itself define the limit, that was done by the last sign you passed.

With an NSL area, the opposite is true. You will have repeater signs if there [i]is[/i] street lighting present. Again, the absence of lighting would mean that repeater signs were unnecessary.

I was taught this on my test. It was framed as a handy tip "if you're ever driving along and aren't sure of the limit, and there's no repeaters, look for street lights."

The limit for the road you're on is defined by the last fill-sized limit sign that you passed. That's it. And unless your car arrived here by teleporter you will always have passed a sign.

40mph for HGVs on single carriageways in Scotland.

Except on the A9 between Perth and Inverness where it is 50mph (as of October 2014)

 

[quote=stilltortoise ]If the presence of street lights indicates a built-up area, and the national speed limit for a built up area is 30mph, why is the speed limit 60mph here?

I hate to tell you, but the speed limit there is 40, because of
https://goo.gl/maps/owXMrwvjBG32 (amongst numerous other possibilities, that's just the closest when travelling in that direction) though if you're travelling along the main road also because of https://goo.gl/maps/Zbh7paPbJLL2 . The speed limit [url= https://goo.gl/maps/8qHvu9UwUfy ]here[/url] is 60 (in a vehicle which isn't otherwise restricted to a lower speed for the pedants) because of the signs you've just passed.

Incidentally if you're being observant at this point you can tell that you're in a 40 or 50 limit https://goo.gl/maps/8ducqqSSfao

I tend to agree with Drac though
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/whats-your-understanding-of-the-national-speed-limit-in-the-uk#post-8972152 - surely they explained this on the course?

et voilá

If the presence of street lights indicates a built-up area, and the national speed limit for a built up area is 30mph, why is the speed limit 60mph here?

Clearly a built-up area, look at all those houses and factories.

There are lights down one side of the road. By this logic it's 30mph in the direction you're looking and 60mph coming the other way.

Ideally there probably should be NSL repeaters on those lights. I'd chalk that one down to poor signage / town planning, either that or it's deemed unnecessary because there's no lights on the other side.

But passing houses and approaching a zebra crossing with a 60mph limit?

The crossing is in a 40mph zone. All the signage is present and correct.

I hate to tell you, but the speed limit there is 40

At the point the photo was taken, yes. The 30mph and 40mph zones are clear. I was referring to the point from the NSL sign. Apologies for the confusion.

There are lights down one side of the road. By this logic it's 30mph in the direction you're looking and 60mph coming the other way.

Ideally there probably should be NSL repeaters on those lights. I'd chalk that one down to poor signage

I'd agree, but ever road I've seen like that would have 30 (or 40) signs where it passes houses. Very poorly signed road. Further back, where aracer linked, there are plenty of signs (and cameras!).

[i]The crossing is in a 40mph zone. All the signage is present and correct.[/i]

Oh, musta missed it with my Google streetview "driving"... Take back what I said then!

Clearly a built-up area, look at all those houses and factories.

Interestingly, the instructors on the speed awareness course drilled it home to *not* rely on the presence (or lack of) houses and factories as an indicator of being a built-up area.

There are NSL repeater signs on that section.

oh and if you continue down that road they remind you that you're in a NSL (ie not a 30 restricted road for the avoidance of doubt, because as pointed out numerous times such a sign indicates that the road is [b]not[/b] a 30 restricted road) https://goo.gl/maps/WjvxvRSp35S2

surely they explained this on the course?

They did but he didn’t understand it luckily the course isn’t pass or fail.

[quote=stilltortoise ]At the point the photo was taken, yes. The 30mph and 40mph zones are clear. I was referring to the point from the NSL sign. Apologies for the confusion.

So I've covered that too - the road from there is NSL (ie not 30 restricted) because of the NSL gateway sign and repeater signs (I'm just assuming there is more than one, CBA streetviewing down the road to check for another).

[quote=DezB ]I'd agree, but ever road I've seen like that would have 30 (or 40) signs where it passes houses. Very poorly signed road.

There seems to be one repeater in that 40 section, which I presume is sufficient according to the law - and they tend not to put out more than required. Though I note there are also several other points along there where the observant can tell it's not a 30 limit (I linked to one). (yeah I get you took back your comments, but it's worth making the point for the 40 section - the NSL section doesn't have houses so it's only the lights which would make you think it anything else, but the repeaters override that).

There are NSL repeater signs on that section.

Ah, I must've missed them, ta. There you go then.

They did but he didn’t understand it luckily the course isn’t pass or fail.

TBF, if it was anything like the course I did, this bit wasn't explained terribly well. I'm not surprised the OP left confused.

Anyway. Aside from the national speed limit in built-up areas being 30 and whether or not street lights of a particular but seemingly undefined height and spacing defines whether it's a built-up area or not: The NSL sign is posted on single- and dual-carriageways and means a 60/70 limit for cars. It will never mean "the NSL applies to this built-up area you're about to enter" simply because they'd use a (30) sign for that instead.

TL;DR - no way does (/) mean (30), ever.

No? What's 'no' for?

Sorry if it read as a curt reply, but it was short for, "no it isn't confusing"

[quote=Cougar ]TL;DR - no way does (/) mean (30), ever.

</thread>

The conclusion I'm drawing is that I [s]'ll take the bus instead[/s] shouldn't have been doing an indicated >60mph in a signed 50mph zone

drive as fast as you can and try not to get caught?

Highways authorities are not allowed to place repeater signs in 30mph zones. The presence of [u]any[/u] repeater signs is a great clue that the limit is not 30mph.

I did not know that until today (or if I did, I'd long since forgotten)

Highways authorities are not allowed to place repeater signs in 30mph zones.

... unless there's no street lighting.

(Is that actually true? Source?)

stilltortoise - Member

Highways authorities are not allowed to place repeater signs in 30mph zones. The presence of any repeater signs is a great clue that the limit is not 30mph.

I did not know that until today (or if I did, I'd long since forgotten)

Oh FFS.

As you have already been told in this very thread, 30 repeaters do exist in areas without a system of street lighting.

Stay off the roads, keep under the bridge.

[url= https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @52.3654695,-0.0686971,3a,75y,256.33h,86.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqGfDioWKC8eVPD0qR5GK3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656]30 repeaters[/url]

[img] [/img]

Indeed. I explained all this yesterday.

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/whats-your-understanding-of-the-national-speed-limit-in-the-uk/page/4#post-8972853

You do seem to be determined to be confused. It's really quite straight forward, despite the SAC guys helpfully muddying it for you.

Cougar - Moderator

Indeed. I explained all this yesterday.

Back of the queue, I was there on page 1. 😛

Yeah, but I did it betterer. (-:

It was a slightly different point, well written.
I've given myself bonus points for covering the road painted New Forest signs though.
Plus as I no longer drive, my driving is beyond criticism so I hereby claim the title of STW's one true driving God.

The irony of the situation suits this place well.

(Is that actually true? Source?)

Source was the Technical Support Officer from Staffordshire Safer Roads Partnership.

Indeed. I explained all this yesterday.

Sorry Cougar 😆 I appreciate your frustration. Yours was the best explanation that I now see correlates with "the truth".

For all those raging at your keyboards at my apparent stupidity, bear in mind from my perspective you're strangers on the internet with opinions. Some of those opinions correlate with fact, some don't. I came here to gauge whether other drivers have been tripped up by misunderstanding of advice given on speed awareness courses. Some of you admitted that it wasn't well explained on your SAC either. I feel reassured that it's not just me.

Wish I'd not bothered saying anything now 😥 😆

</waits for "me too" comments>

Source was the Technical Support Officer from Staffordshire Safer Roads Partnership.

What did they tell you about the special rules in the New Forest?

I came here to gauge whether other drivers have been tripped up by misunderstanding of advice given on speed awareness courses.

No.
As the one true driving God, I have never [s]been caught speeding[/s] broken the speed limit. 🙂

Source was the Technical Support Officer from Staffordshire Safer Roads Partnership.

... who was demonstrably wrong. (-:

Link from Staffs Safer Roads Partnership:

There are a number of unlit roads
where a 30 mph speed limit applies.
In these circumstances the traffic
authority must place 30 mph
repeater signs.

Buuuumpp!

I've got a speed awareness course tomorrow! Yippee! I just read through this thread to find out what sort of things to expect and it seems like idiots like what myself is will be the order of the day. Goodie.

Please note, I think I was innocent* of any crime, m'lud. But, however, I did go above the speed limit by a bit. There are many factors which make it annoying that this happened, but I won't go into them. I'll just take my "punishment" or is it "training"? like a man. 😀

.

*not really